Disqualiified 4x400 Relay team running at State Track Meet

[huddle]

The Giddings4x400 relay team was disqualified at the Region 3 Track Meet in Humble for running inside the white line on the curve. Hempstead won in 3:18.58. Giddings finished 2nd in 3:20.47. Barbers Hill finished third in 3:21.18.
With the disqualification, Barbers Hill was awarded 2nd place and put on the awards stand and given their 2nd Place medals and announced as going to state.
The disqualification is unappealable by the rule book. The Meet Referee told the Giddings coach this.
The final 3A point standings were announced. The 3A Meet over.
There was the same problem in 5A. The winning team was disqualified for the same reason. For some reason the rules commitee heard this appeal (which is against the rules). They overturned the disqualifications for extenuating circumstances. "The judges were correct on their calls" the Houston Chronicle quoted Meet Official Lou Vicenik as saying in the Sunday paper. Since they overturned in 5A they overturned 3A also.
The extenuating circumstances were that there were no orange cones on the white line to keep the runners from running inside it.
There was a white line which is what the rule book says.
Dr. Charles Breithaupt said he could not correct the mistake because Humble turned it in with Giddings second.
Humble would not correct it either.
This seems sad to me that a team that ran correctly and obeyed the lane rule is not allowed to run and a team that broke the rules and ran inside the line ( and it was called by the judges) and disqualified is allowed to run at the state meet.
THIS IS NOT RIGHT!

[District303aPastPlayer]

life is not fair.

[Milk That Cow]

All I know is that Humble was a terrible venue for the Track & Field, so hopefully this controversy will convince folks to move it out of there...

[KATS]

Humble is not a bad venue.
It was horrible for 3a while it was at Blinn and the Bryan area.
Humble is the Taj Mahal for 3a.
I thought the facilities were great.
It is unfortunate and Giddings did violate the rules.
Where does it say you have to have the cones out?

[Milk That Cow]

I humbly disagree...

Those bleachers were so worn out, they must have been built in the 1950's...

A&M needs to get off the hump and host that region, since every other college hosts a regional track meet...

[neck_94]

Never been to Humble...

but I will say this, I am not happy about moving to region 3 next year for that reason. I mean come on...who wants to go to REGIONALS at a freakin high school???

That has always been part of the "atmosphere" if you will, getting to go run at a college track. In 4A we went to SHSU, and the last two years, TAMU-Kingsville.
The meet administration has not been the greatest, but hey 99% of the kids dont give a hoot anyway about how the meet is run.

[Phil C]

If you can't beat 'em disqualify them!

[neck_06]

they got second, they should go, i really don't think that that little step over the line caused them to win the race.

[neck_94]

I heard they would have beat them if they would not have CHEATED !!!

[AggieJohn]

Originally posted by Milk That Cow
I humbly disagree...

Those bleachers were so worn out, they must have been built in the 1950's...

A&M needs to get off the hump and host that region, since every other college hosts a regional track meet...

a&m doesn't really have a "Track" per say as it is.....we will next year w/ an indoor one...

[pancho villa]

I don't want to go to Humble next year, but I'll have to.
Who would of thought I would want to go back to Kingsville Texas.

[raider red 2000]

Originally posted by pancho villa
I don't want to go to Humble next year, but I'll have to.
Who would of thought I would want to go back to Kingsville Texas.

i have heard that humble is much better than kingsville.

i have also been told that the only regional meet that is worse than kingsville....were the ones at Blinn.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

as far as the DQ goes....if the team was DQ'ed and then it was changed...that is pretty bad. heck why have lanes if you dont have to run inside of them?????

also, i wonder if this happened on the 2nd leg where the kids are allowed to break in. if so, some meets do put out little cones to let the kids know which line to break in at. college tracks ofton have lines that HS tracks dont have.

[BU97]

Did it really cause that much of an adavantage that gave them the edge over Barbers Hill? I say that a team should not have to pay the price because of the conditions of the track.

A similar situation happened to me in 2004, our 4x400 was DQd in the prelims for cutting in to soon on the 2nd leg. It was immediately overturned because there were two break lines on the track and there were no cones to clearly mark the break line.

As far as Humble goes, I prefer it to any other I have been to. It is a great atmoshere on Saturday getting to run with the 5As. I am looking forward to going back next year.

Tough break Barbers Hill, I wish that it did not end this way for your kids and coaches.

[pancho villa]

I went to 2 regional meets at Blinn and they were awful.
Well I hope I like Humble the next 2 years.
There is going to be no speed in Reg.IV other than Cueros boys now.

[neck_94]

okay BU97
So I guess it kinda like if you team is good you dont have to follow the rules???

I guess that is why a sprint relay team in region 4 who should have been DQed in the prelims....wasn't

if you were there and watching, you know who I am talking about

rule is a rule, you just cant shorten the course

[District303aPastPlayer]

if you are going to call someone out, do it fully...

[pancho villa]

Call him out fool.

[neck_94]

cuero 2nd exchange

now...

[neck_94]

just like needville girls in the prelims..

2nd exchange OUT... no dq

[neck_94]

differerence here is...I guess,

the giddings team was CAUGHT by an official who was paying attention

the other 2 I mentioned didnt get caught so i guess technically it didnt happen

[pancho villa]

Well I guess since all 3 teams are going to state they did not break the rules.

[neck_06]

what are you talking about!

you know that the officials aren't gonna dq CUERO.......even the state gives them what they want.............lane 4 and 5..........;)

[pancho villa]

Darn our girls and boys 4x100 should be regional champs. But wait we got out run in both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pancho villa]

Maybe you need to get a job at the regional and state meet 94 so you can quit crying.

[BU97]

Originally posted by neck_94
okay BU97
So I guess it kinda like if you team is good you dont have to follow the rules???

I guess that is why a sprint relay team in region 4 who should have been DQed in the prelims....wasn't

if you were there and watching, you know who I am talking about

rule is a rule, you just cant shorten the course

I get what you are saying, and I won't say that I disagree. What I am saying is that if there is fault by the way that the meet is set up, SHOULD there be consideration to fix something that may have not been the athlete's fault.

Of course it seems like Hempstead, Barbers Hill and the others managed to stay outside of the line, so maybe it should not have been reversed. I am not trying to take anyone's side I am just pointing out that sometimes errors made by the meet officials might be considered to overturn.

As far as the sprint relay at TAMUK I did not see it, I heard about it but did not see it. Of course someone could have cut across the grass down there and it would have not been seen.

[Whsdogs]

first of all...was this "shortening of the course" a big time thing were it shaved 2 seconds off the time??? cause if not i think they deserve to go cause they still beat the 3rd place team by a few seconds...imo

[neck_94]

Originally posted by BU97

As far as the sprint relay at TAMUK I did not see it, I heard about it but did not see it. Of course someone could have cut across the grass down there and it would have not been seen.

TOO TRUE

And yes, im kinda glad cuero didnt get dq'ed because I am anxiously awaiting the sprint relay so I can see Cuero and Hempstead GET-IT-ON, you know what I mean...
We got beat pretty good by both of them (at different meets) and I want to see them race.

[neck_94]

Originally posted by Whsdogs
first of all...was this "shortening of the course" a big time thing were it shaved 2 seconds off the time??? cause if not i think they deserve to go cause they still beat the 3rd place team by a few seconds...imo

if they ran "off the course" they got an advantage over everyone else... dont matter by how much... rules are rules.

and the cone thing... come on, the only time i could see needing cones is in the mile relay 2nd leg break.

[pancho villa]

The "GUY" that saw the Cuero team out of their exchange zone got 3rd place in the 4x100. Well Well!

[neck_94]

why the hate ?

hater

[Whsdogs]

Originally posted by neck_94
if they ran "off the course" they got an advantage over everyone else... dont matter by how much... rules are rules.

and the cone thing... come on, the only time i could see needing cones is in the mile relay 2nd leg break.

you still didnt answer my question...how much did they run off "course" because most place allow a few steps on either side of the line and its prefectly fine....rules are regularly bent for races i have seen people break before the line and still not get dq...thats more of an advantage than what i think you are talkin about..

[pancho villa]

To the winner go the spoils.

[neck_94]

obviously more than 3 consecutive strides...

which is a rules infraction

[pancho villa]

Originally posted by neck_94
obviously more than 3 consecutive strides...

which is a rules infraction

Have an issue? Need a tissue?

[neck_94]

more than 3 consecutive strides

[pancho villa]

Originally posted by neck_94
obviously more than 3 consecutive strides...

which is a rules infraction

Need some cheese?

To go with that whine?

[Whsdogs]

Originally posted by pancho villa
Have an issue? Need a tissue?

lol...oh well

[BlueBlood]

Originally posted by Whsdogs
you still didnt answer my question...how much did they run off "course" because most place allow a few steps on either side of the line and its prefectly fine....rules are regularly bent for races i have seen people break before the line and still not get dq...thats more of an advantage than what i think you are talkin about..

I was told that nobody was running in lane one, Hempstead was in lane two and they ran the entire curve in lane one. They only beat BH by .05 (I think).

[mustang04]

all i gotta say is...id rather the two BETTER teams to go to state......say cuero woulda had an accident and finish like 4th for some odd reason....i think they should still go to state cuz of their consistently good performances...im sry but i prefer to watch the BEST in the state, no matter how they get there whats the fun in watchin teams who are not the fastest in the state but by golly them kids sure were the fairest...I DONT CARE!!!! I WANT TO SEE OPTIMUM HUMAN PERFORMANCE!!!!!!!:D

[Gobbla2001]

This doesn't sound like a very good situation... I can see why BH fans/athletes/coaches would be upset... Hell, they thought they were goin' to Austin...

But then again, as mustang04 said, it is cool for people to see the better team at state... But wouldn't staying in your lane make you a better team?

Hmmm, twisted situation...

[mustang04]

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
This doesn't sound like a very good situation... I can see why BH fans/athletes/coaches would be upset... Hell, they thought they were goin' to Austin...

But then again, as mustang04 said, it is cool for people to see the better team at state... But wouldn't staying in your lane make you a better team?

Hmmm, twisted situation...

it would make u a lil more careless....but c'mon.....if its obvious what team is better, i think a mishap shouldnt keep them from performing at state.....if we could go back in time..i wonder how many relays could have won state but they didnt even make it to state cuz they got dq'd for something at regionals or even as early as district...sry, but ill say again...i'm ALL for seeing the BEST

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by mustang04
it would make u a lil more careless....but c'mon.....if its obvious what team is better, i think a mishap shouldnt keep them from performing at state.....if we could go back in time..i wonder how many relays could have won state but they didnt even make it to state cuz they got dq'd for something at regionals or even as early as district...sry, but ill say again...i'm ALL for seeing the BEST

I see what you're saying, then again those rules have been the rules at every track meet this year and last year etc..., ya know? you have to follow 'em and win...

Now it would have been cool if Cuero could have gotten away with that hold against Hutto on our TD that got called back :D so you may have a point...

[BTEXDAD]

Originally posted by mustang04
it would make u a lil more careless....but c'mon.....if its obvious what team is better, i think a mishap shouldnt keep them from performing at state.....if we could go back in time..i wonder how many relays could have won state but they didnt even make it to state cuz they got dq'd for something at regionals or even as early as district...sry, but ill say again...i'm ALL for seeing the BEST

In district 20-3a meet, the bellville 300 meter hurdler won race by some 10 yards. Was disqualified for knocking down too many hurdles. There's some kind of rule you have to "make an attempt to jump the hurdles" which had to be a completely subjective assumption by the opposing coaches/judges who disqualified him. I ran hurdles 25 years ago and I always felt hitting the hurdles slowed you down and didn't help you run faster. But Bellville was told that the disqualification could not be appealed and so it wasn't. The hurdler got no medal and no advancement to regional.
I like watchign the best runners and relay teams run also, but why have rules if they are going to enforce them sometimes and sometimes not depending on who saw or didn't see the violations?

[BU97]

Originally posted by BTEXDAD
There's some kind of rule you have to "make an attempt to jump the hurdles"


I knew that there was some kind of rule like that but I have NEVER seen it enforced. I am like you it slows you down anyway. As long as it does not interfere with the other runners.

[BTEXDAD]

Originally posted by BU97
I knew that there was some kind of rule like that but I have NEVER seen it enforced. I am like you it slows you down anyway. As long as it does not interfere with the other runners.

True, I never thought about it interfering with other runners, but that could always be argued if someone goes outside their lanes also, unless there behind other teams to begin with.
Hopefully the state meet will be without controversy.

[neck_94]

Originally posted by BU97
I knew that there was some kind of rule like that but I have NEVER seen it enforced. I am like you it slows you down anyway. As long as it does not interfere with the other runners.

just because I like to argue...

99% of High Schools hurdles are rocker style and not the correct weight and can VERY easily be kicked over with little or no consequence to a fast/strong kid.

What I get a kick out of is seeing that kid that busts up all my hurldles go to a UNIVERSITY for a regional meet and try to kick those hurdles down and find out real quick why their coaches teach them to NOT kick them down.

[Bull19]

Originally posted by neck_94
I heard they would have beat them if they would not have CHEATED !!!


prove that they cheated

[raider red 2000]

Originally posted by Bull19
prove that they cheated

it dosnt matter if there was proof....video....any objections have to be written and given to the meet director within 30 minutes of the competion of the event.

[neck_94]

okay, they got DQed by an official...not by me.


overturned later that night AFTER the 5A meet was over.

if that aint proof I dont know what is...

[BU97]

Originally posted by neck_94
okay, they got DQed by an official...not by me.


overturned later that night AFTER the 5A meet was over.

if that aint proof I dont know what is...


I was under the impression that this happened in the finals, and unless they have changed things, the 5A 4x400 was the next race after the 3A so it was not like alot of time passed. BUT it still is not cool to make a team get up there accept their medals and then take them back.

[pancho villa]

Well I hope every team gets DQed inthe 3A relays except us and we get the GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BU97]

Heck in that case you could have all 3 medals!

When are ya'll leaving?

[pancho villa]

We are going up Fri. morning. Got a girl jumping at noon. Then all the rest run on Sat. When ya'll leaving?

[BU97]

Friday after lunch, we'll go get checked in and head out to the stadium and watch the 4A meet.

[gobblerfan02]

Wish I could be there to see the Cuero boys "make a run" for the title...but I'm graduating....good luck to all those competing!

[HPLJ6L]

Who cares?
They were running for a bronze anyway. Basically Cuero and Hempstead have this race sewed up. If it were horses you could bet a 5-2 box and wheel the field.

[44INAROW]

Originally posted by pancho villa
We are going up Fri. morning. Got a girl jumping at noon. Then all the rest run on Sat. When ya'll leaving?

Pancho
Is your daughter running anchor on the sprint relay? Hope she and the team bring home the gold :)

[Gobbler Fan]

Cuero was DQ'd.........
























Last year at the Texas Relay's after winning the event 4x200 or was it the4x100 OG ?....for the exact same reason 3 or more step's inside the white line and the dq happened about a full hour after the race but they all know who really won that race ;)

[crabman]

Cuero won that race and set a new division record. The DQ only happened after an opposing coach convinced someone to watch his video which showed our guy run ON the line for 3-4 strides. By the way, review of video is specifically prohibited by the rules. BFD.

On a different note, there are nine lanes at Mike Myers Stadium. Why doesn't the next top time not to finish in the top two at regionals get to run at state? Kind of like a wild card. Nine certainly wouldn't kill you in any field events either. I always thought that would be interesting.

[BU97]

Great idea taking 9 to state but it makes TOO much since for the UIL to consider it.

[DaHill'05]

You know this is what is wrong with society. There are no set rules anymore. What kind of example is this setting for the kids that are affected by a decision like this? It is no longer you break the rules you lose. It is more like you break the rules a little and you might be OK depending on the judgment of some official or committee. You have to really break the rules badly in order for any kind of substantial action to be taken against you. Barbers Hill was on the awards stand and accepted their medals as the second place team and was excited about going to state. They did not run over the inside white line on the track. The cone thing is just an excuse by the Humble officials who had to dig to come up with their so-called "extinuating circumstances." By the way Barbers Hill did beat Giddings twice this year when Giddings didn't break the rules. One at the Texas relays and the other in the qualifying time in the prelims. Had Barbers Hill run over the line they might have made up the 0.5 second that Giddings had on them by crossing the line. So sadly, all of you who mentioned that you want to see the best teams run, are not actually getting to see one of them. I would much rather see a team that gets to state by obeying the rules and doing the right thing and being rewarded than another team who was disqualified for shortening the track, but was able to be rewarded for doing wrong.
What has not been mentioned yet is WHY the 5A decision was overturned. Which, have I mentioned yet that a disqualification is not appealable, according to the track and field rule book. The reason the 5A decision was made is because had they disqualified the winner (Thurgood Marshall) in the mile relay then Aldine Eisenhower would not have won the regional championship. Spring Westfield would have won regionals. So they did not disqualify Thurgood Marshall and that allowed Aldine Eisenhower to still win regionals. So needless to say you will be watching a second team, Thurgood Marshall, that broke the rules and was disqualified run at state. .... Come on people what kind of messages are we sending to these kids? This is the kind of stuff that makes me sick.

[neck_94]

DaHill'05

very well said... I agree with you 100%

rules are rules and If we are not gonna follow them, GET RID OF THEM !!!

[KTJ]

Originally posted by crabman
Cuero won that race and set a new division record. The DQ only happened after an opposing coach convinced someone to watch his video which showed our guy run ON the line for 3-4 strides. By the way, review of video is specifically prohibited by the rules. BFD.

On a different note, there are nine lanes at Mike Myers Stadium. Why doesn't the next top time not to finish in the top two at regionals get to run at state? Kind of like a wild card. Nine certainly wouldn't kill you in any field events either. I always thought that would be interesting.


That's too much of a hassle. You'd have to wait until every regional meet is over, find out the times/jumps/throws in each event and see who was better overall, call said team/individual/school and tell them that they made State as a wild card. By that time, it would be Monday or Tuesday and the team would have 1-2 days of practice time.

8 is fine. Although I do agree with the UIL (what I agree with the UIL!!!) with taking the top 3 from Districts to Regionals.

[pancho villa]

Originally posted by 44INAROW
Pancho
Is your daughter running anchor on the sprint relay? Hope she and the team bring home the gold :)

No she runs the 2nd leg this year, she has all year, ran Anchor last year. Thanks, and I am keeping my fingers crossed. Also both our boys relays are going to beat Cuero. ;)

[BU97]

Thanks for clearing it all up DaHill'05. I knew there was some wierd circumstance that caused Giddings to be reinstated. It sucks for Barbers Hill, isn't this two years in a row to get 3rd at Regionals?

[crabman]

That's too much of a hassle. You'd have to wait until every regional meet is over, find out the times/jumps/throws in each event and see who was better overall, call said team/individual/school and tell them that they made State as a wild card. By that time, it would be Monday or Tuesday and the team would have 1-2 days of practice time.

Actually it would give you a WEEK and 1-2 days of practice. There is two weeks between regional and state. In the age of the internet and e-mail, I guarantee you the coaches would know who that spot went to by Sunday night following Regionals. The UIL could make it official by Tuesday morning and you still have almost two weeks before state.

Now this is one of those things where weather would get into it. Dead heat 10.85 100 meters in west Texas into a 15 MPH headwind versus a 10.85 in East Texas with a legal tailwind. What do you do? It would take a lot of thought to come up with something but as we have seen, the rules may get "bent" to get someone in over someone else.

It was just a thought.

[gobblerfan02]

Originally posted by pancho villa
Also both our boys relays are going to beat Cuero. ;)

I'll believe that when I read it on here!

[KTJ]

Originally posted by crabman
Actually it would give you a WEEK and 1-2 days of practice. There is two weeks between regional and state. In the age of the internet and e-mail, I guarantee you the coaches would know who that spot went to by Sunday night following Regionals. The UIL could make it official by Tuesday morning and you still have almost two weeks before state.

Now this is one of those things where weather would get into it. Dead heat 10.85 100 meters in west Texas into a 15 MPH headwind versus a 10.85 in East Texas with a legal tailwind. What do you do? It would take a lot of thought to come up with something but as we have seen, the rules may get "bent" to get someone in over someone else.

It was just a thought.


You're right. I keep forgetting there is a week inbetween Regionals and State.

But still, I don't think a Wild Card is necessary.

[gobblerfan02]

Originally posted by KTJ
You're right. I keep forgetting there is a week inbetween Regionals and State.

But still, I don't think a Wild Card is necessary.

Actually KTJ, its two weeks, and yes, the wild card shouldn't be necessary, although it would suck if the third place team in one region had the third best times CONSISTENTLY in the state! That would be the only reason for having a wildcard in the first place!