12th man has a place in Seattle

[Keith7]

I thought this was a very good article, i wanted to share it..
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12th Man has place in Seattle

By Steve Kelley

DETROIT — Yo, Texas A&M, one word for you — chill! Cease and desist with your whining. Get a life. Get 12 of them.

Surely there are things more important in this world to worry about than whether the Seahawks have ripped off your trademarked "12th Man" idea.

Things like the decline of education in this country, the unrelenting problems in the Middle East and the fact you guys can't beat Texas.

I mean, where have you been?

The Seahawks didn't just think up the idea of the 12th Man last November when the packed house at Qwest Field roared so loudly that New York Giants linemen looked as jumpy as squirrels.

This number 12 has been retired in Seattle since 1984. You remember 1984, don't you? You should. You beat Texas that year, 37-12.

What's next? Are you going to threaten to sue the Seahawks for cheering after touchdowns? Is that something else you think is unique to College Station?

"I thought everybody used the 12th Man," Seattle safety Michael Boulware said at Monday's news conference. "I can't believe they're really serious about it. I know for me, as a defensive player, our 12th Man is huge. I need the 12th Man. They give us an advantage. I just hope this thing just goes away."

This is much ado about 12.

"It's silly," Seahawks quarterback Matt Hasselbeck said.

Look, every fan in Seattle thinks what you do at Texas A&M is cool. Fans know about the origin. The team beaten up by injuries. A student comes out of the stands to help the depleted Aggies. Fans know that 12th Man has been a part of A&M football since 1922.

But your 12th Man and Seattle's 12th Man are as different as college football and the NFL.

"I grew up in South Florida and I went to the University of Michigan and I didn't know too much about the Seahawks," left guard Steve Hutchinson said. "When I got there I learned about how huge the 12th Man was in the Kingdome. And that it was a very loud place.

"Now being there for five years, I realize what the fans mean to our team and that franchise. The 12th Man really is part of that team, and I don't think it was something that was done to rip anything off. I think it's an honest thing."

Yo, A&M! The way your football team has been losing the past few years — 16-19 the past three seasons — you might try your luck with a 12th and a 13th Man.

And while you're at it, why not patent some cheers like "Hold that line," or "Block that kick." Or "Hit 'em again. Hit 'em again. Harder. Harder." And sue any cheerleading team that dares to use them.

"Every team thinks of their fans as the 12th Man. I don't see why it's a big deal," Seahawks defensive tackle Chuck Darby said. "The 12th Man is our fans, and they made a difference."

The timing is just a bit curious. Why did A&M wait until Super Bowl Week to make this an issue? Sounds a little opportunistic. Like an idea some marketing guy cooked up when he was watching Hawks owner Paul Allen run up the 12th Man flag before the NFC Championship Game.

Yo, Aggies! You should have been in Seattle inside the Kingdome in 1984. It was loud. Denver's John Elway used to flap his arms like a condor, asking for quiet, and the crowd only got louder.

"I came from Green Bay and the fans are incredible there. Incredible," Hasselbeck said. "Then I came to Husky Stadium and we didn't even sell out our games, and everybody was telling me about Seattle being a football town and talking about the 12th Man. But it just didn't make any sense. The games I was at, half the people there were rooting for the Raiders or the Cowboys. It didn't feel like there was a 12th Man.

"Then we moved into our own stadium. Started winning a little bit. I felt it. And now I see it. And now I've learned a lot about the history and the tradition of the 12th Man, the Kingdome and all that stuff. And then I've kind of lived that the last few years. No stadium's been louder. And in my opinion, without a doubt, Seattle is a football town. I don't think the 12th Man is a marketing gimmick."

It's a reality. It's something precious in pro sports today, noise that isn't electronically amplified. It's noise that comes from the lungs, not the loudspeaker, and is as effective as an extra defensive back.

The 12th Man has its own history in Seattle.

Yo, A&M! Get serious.

Steve Kelley: 206-464-2176 or skelley@seattletimes.com

[Gobbler Fan]

Seahawks fan taking the “12th Man” thing way too seriously

Diehard Seattle Seahawks fan Roger Pronger has taken the team’s acknowledgement of the “12th Man” far too seriously, say his friends and family.
“I think most any intelligent person would realize the team was kind of just paying lip service to the fans to keep their support going,” said Pronger’s brother, Michael. “It’s not as though any player on the Seahawks looks at the 12th Man as a true member of the team or that they think they would’ve lost their games if the fans weren’t so supportive. But Roger has totally blown it all out of proportion and thinks he’s a legitimate member of the team now.”
“Woo-hoo! Go Seahawks! Seahawks are No. 1!” yelled the 32-year old insurance salesman. “We’re just a few days from gametime now and my teammates are counting on my to step up. I can almost taste the victory. My hand is going to look sweet with a Super Bowl ring on it. Woo-hoo! Go Seahawks!”
Pronger said he has had trouble meeting up with his Seahawks “teammates” since he flew into Detroit on a separate commercial flight Sunday night.
“For some reason they won’t let me into the hotel because security says I’m not a member of the team, even though I’ve told them I’m the 12th Man” he said. “It’s frustrating, to be honest. I guess it’s just more proof the Seahawks don’t get any respect. If I was on some other team they’d probably recognize me and let me in the hotel.”

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
...When you're the Clippers of the NFL for 19 of those 21 years, nobody 2000 miles away cares about you.
Sorry guys, don't think the 12th Man became big in NFL circles until the 1980's. The 12th Man is a part of A&M folklore, not a part of NFL folklore. It's the same thing as if the Dallas Cowboys started rolling Toomer's Corner after a win, the Oakland Raiders built a Touchdown Jesus, the Washington Redskins coming out in the Sooner Schooner, or Coutney Love using the word "sober" in any given sentence. They just shouldn't be done.

If you wrote a book, called it "Catcher in the Rye," called the main character Colden Haulfield, and wrote about how Haulfield lost his mind after failing out of boarding schools, you think J.D. Salinger's family would let it slide?

[Bandera YaYa]

Not that I care, but the aggies have now just made a bigger fool of themselves, and they wonder why they get ribbed all the time???.....geezzzzzzzz......people dont like crybabies, ya'll!!! I agree, GET A LIFE!! :rolleyes:

[HM33]

Very well put YaYa.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by Bandera YaYa
Not that I care, but the aggies have now just made a bigger fool of themselves, and they wonder why they get ribbed all the time???.....geezzzzzzzz......people dont like crybabies, ya'll!!! I agree, GET A LIFE!! :rolleyes:

I agree 100%:clap:

[BuckW]

I might be wrong but isnt the lawsuit on the Seahawks selling merchandise with the 12th Man on it. A&M has had that copyrighted and anyway you put it if Seahawks are doing this, it is illegal.

[HM33]

I just wonder what kind of aggie jokes will come from this. :D

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Bandera YaYa
Not that I care, but the aggies have now just made a bigger fool of themselves, and they wonder why they get ribbed all the time???.....geezzzzzzzz......people dont like crybabies, ya'll!!! I agree, GET A LIFE!! :rolleyes:
You're right. They should just let the Seahawks market the 12th man. That's the smart thing to do. A&M wouldn't be seen as fools if they did that.

[Bullaholic]

I truly can see both sides of this argument, which I think has gotten out of hand. I am not an Aggie fan, but I do know that the one thing that the Ags believe in more strongly than practically any other institution is Aggie "traditions" and the "12th Man" is at the heart of that tradition. There are many other "uncontested" and "unique" names that Seattle could have selected for their fans instead of one they knew was in use by a major collegiate institution. The Aggies are not wrong to object to this blatant use of "their" tradition.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
I truly can see both sides of this argument, which I think has gotten out of hand. I am not an Aggie fan, but I do know that the one thing that the Ags believe in more strongly than practically any other institution is Aggie "traditions" and the "12th Man" is at the heart of that tradition. There are many other "uncontested" and "unique" names that Seattle could have selected for their fans instead of one they knew was in use by a major collegiate institution. The Aggies are not wrong to object to this blatant use of "their" tradition.

I guess maybe had I attended college there, I might feel differently!

It just seems "much ado about nothing" to me!

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I guess maybe had I attended college there, I might feel differently!

It just seems "much ado about nothing" to me!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[BuckW]

Also A&M had sent out many decised orders out to the Seahawks before this

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by BuckW
Also A&M had sent out many decised orders out to the Seahawks before this

So what's gonna happen with this? I don't keep up with this kind of stuff!

Lawsuit??

[AP Panther Fan]

I think a trademark, is a trademark, is a trademark. People don't go through the process for the fun of it, I assure you.

In the business world it is a very, big thing. I have gone through it and it is expensive and time-consuming.:cool:

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
So what's gonna happen with this? I don't keep up with this kind of stuff!

Lawsuit??

RM, my guess is that Seattle will "tie" this thing up long enough to get by the Super Bowl, and then pick another name after.

[AP Panther Fan]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
RM, my guess is that Seattle will "tie" this thing up long enough to get by the Super Bowl, and then pick another name after.


That would be the smartest thing to do. Why spend a ton of money on attorney fees in a battle you might not win.

I can say one thing though, Seattle can afford the fight better than A&M unfortunately.

[UPanIN]

A&M has plenty of money to fight this. I'd be very surprised if A&M lets this go.

I know the company I work for has spent thousands of dollars to copywrite names and logo's and would fight tooth and nail to defend them.

A&M should not have waited this long to file on this though. It makes them look like the bad guy to everyone but Aggies.

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
RM, my guess is that Seattle will "tie" this thing up long enough to get by the Super Bowl, and then pick another name after.

it wont be heard by a federal court until next week...

[BreckTxLonghorn]

The cease and desist(sp) may happen, but Seattle will never stop doing it. Even if the organization stops merchandising, raising the 12, unretires the number, etc, you will still have fans making their own tshirts, flying their own flags, and basically calling themselves the 12th Man. Its a fight that can't be truly won.

And I know aTm has sent out the orders before, and they have worked to no avail. But why has aTm waited so long to make it publicly known so well? Why did they wait to do another c&d order until the 'Hawks made SBXL? Why couldn't they wait? IMO (and sorry to offend anyone) they want some pub and are doing this to show how 'rich the tradition' is. Unfortunately, that plan is almost working to a negative aspect.

[vet93]

I think that the reason may be that as the Seahawks progressed through a successful season and the playoffs more people in this area (including Aggies) became more aware of Seattle using the 12th man idea....as a result of the increased awareness, Aggie alumni began calling the university and asking why we were not protecting our tradition. I don't follow the NFL that much and I didn't know about Seattles using the 12th man idea until the last few weeks. Unfortunately for the Aggies, now that they are trying to do something about it this late....it looks bad and people who enjoy poking fun at the university will keep up the negative press. I can assure you that if someone started merchandising Hook'em horns, boomer sooner, sic'em bears etc... that the universities involved would protect their turf. It is not just a tradition thing but a merchandising/money thing as well.


Originally posted by BreckTxLonghorn
The cease and desist(sp) may happen, but Seattle will never stop doing it. Even if the organization stops merchandising, raising the 12, unretires the number, etc, you will still have fans making their own tshirts, flying their own flags, and basically calling themselves the 12th Man. Its a fight that can't be truly won.

And I know aTm has sent out the orders before, and they have worked to no avail. But why has aTm waited so long to make it publicly known so well? Why did they wait to do another c&d order until the 'Hawks made SBXL? Why couldn't they wait? IMO (and sorry to offend anyone) they want some pub and are doing this to show how 'rich the tradition' is. Unfortunately, that plan is almost working to a negative aspect.

[GreenMonster]

Seattle is stealing. How would you feel if someone were to break into your home and take one of your most prized possesions and then flaunt it all over TV making a big deal out of it? You'd be pretty hacked off, right? Well, aTm is hacked off. Seattle can keep running the #12 flag up the flag pole if they want. They just can't refer to the fans as the 12th Man or sell any merchandise that has 12th Man on it. Copyrights and Trademarks are supposed to be protected by law. The authorities should step in and put a stop to this just like they would for any other company.

[lepfan]

Originally posted by Bandera YaYa
they wonder why they get ribbed all the time :rolleyes: Is that better than no ribs?

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by vet93
I think that the reason may be that as the Seahawks progressed through a successful season and the playoffs more people in this area (including Aggies) became more aware of Seattle using the 12th man idea....as a result of the increased awareness, Aggie alumni began calling the university and asking why we were not protecting our tradition. I don't follow the NFL that much and I didn't know about Seattles using the 12th man idea until the last few weeks. Unfortunately for the Aggies, now that they are trying to do something about it this late....it looks bad and people who enjoy poking fun at the university will keep up the negative press. I can assure you that if someone started merchandising Hook'em horns, boomer sooner, sic'em bears etc... that the universities involved would protect their turf. It is not just a tradition thing but a merchandising/money thing as well.

You are exactly right! In fact, other major universities should be jumping in behind aTm on this thing, IMO. If the ags loose this battle, who is next? It doesnt really matter whether you like aTm or not. They are in the right, and the Seahawks are in the wrong. They should not only cease and desist, but they should make a public apology to aTm in the process, and should offer proceeds from their marketing profits. If this was TEXAS, USC, or NOTRE DAME we were talking about, I bet it would be being viewed much differently by most. I'm not an Ag myself, but if they have the trademark, they have every right to defend it, just like any large company (or university) would defend theirs. Whether you or I or anyone else thinks it is silly or not, is of no consiquence.

[sinton66]

Right is right, and illegal is illegal. A&M is right, Seahawks' actions are illegal.

[lostaussie]

Originally posted by sinton66
Right is right, and illegal is illegal. A&M is right, Seahawks' actions are illegal. i have mixed feelings. for one i just want it to go away. on the other hand aTm should fight for what is rightfully theirs. it's just bad timing. i hope aTm wins.

[big daddy russ]

A&M screwed themselves by being too lienient with the whole thing. Seattle drug it out and now they look like the victims. I still side with A&M, but like everyone else said, they made themselves look bad by the bad timing. But I guess they had to go ahead and go after Seattle before the Superbowl.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
A&M screwed themselves by being too lienient with the whole thing. Seattle drug it out and now they look like the victims. I still side with A&M, but like everyone else said, they made themselves look bad by the bad timing. But I guess they had to go ahead and go after Seattle before the Superbowl.

I'm still confused as to why they waited so long to "trademark" it! It seems to me they are about 70 years late!

But then again, all I know about it is what I have read here!

[lostaussie]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I'm still confused as to why they waited so long to "trademark" it! It seems to me they are about 70 years late!

But then again, all I know about it is what I have read here! hey, 20 or thirty years ago, the least of your worries was somebody stealing your "trademark". especially a pro team.

[District303aPastPlayer]

i love how cheers are being trademarked, lol...

seriously... A&M is making a case because its tradition... okay.. so are pep rallies, homecoming and football plays... those next on A&Ms list?

[lostaussie]

maybe we should get a cow and call him bevo?

[Bulldog_12]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
i love how cheers are being trademarked, lol...

seriously... A&M is making a case because its tradition... okay.. so are pep rallies, homecoming and football plays... those next on A&Ms list?

Cheer??? Obviously you dont know what the 12th man is here. NOT a cheer. A&M is right in this one and are by no means making fools of ourselves. We are protecting OUR traditions. The reason it is a big deal is because all seattle did in 84 was retire a jersey, no reference was made to "THE 12th MAN" it was only a jersey. A&M then trademarked it in 90 and when Qwest field was built they placed signs reading home of the 12th man. Gee why do I feel like I have seen that before somewhere???? A&M sent cease and desist orders in 04, 05, and now again when EVERYONE is seeing their use of it. This would be like The Texans stealing Hook'em or something to that effect. If you don't protect your trademarks, you lose them. I am thankful A&M is doing this.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
i love how cheers are being trademarked, lol...
The 12th man isn't

The story: On January 2, 1922 TAMU was playing top-ranked Centre College. Tough game, injury bug... yada, yada, yada. After seven broken ankles, five sports hernias, two broken legs, a broken heart and a torn scrotum, A&M was down to only a few players. The coach saw E. King Gill, a basketball player, in the press box and asked him to suit up and be ready if the team needed him.

By the end of the game, Gill was the only reserve left on the A&M sideline. A&M pulled out the victory, 22-14. Gill was quoted as saying, "I wish I could say that I went in and ran for the winning touchdown, but I did not. I simply stood by in case my team needed me."

He later added, "I want to sing and dance, I want to sing and dance...
I want to be a pirate in the Pirates of Penzance."

The 12th man was born. It started off as just the fans standing ready throughout the game. Back in the 20's, you might have a couple hundred watching and standing. As attendance grew, so did the tradition. Nowadays, 40,000 students plus their guests stand and yell the whole game... don't sit down except for the 10 minutes during halftime when the band isn't playing.

You call it a cult following. I call it a good time.

Later on, the Ags started the 12th man kickoff team, and the team held open tryouts every week for the kickoff coverage team, and every week a bunch of normal students would put on maroon #12 jerseys and take the field at Kyle during kickoffs. It's evolved to where now there's only one 12th man on the kickoff teams... a walk-on.... but anyways, it's a pretty big tradition. Was ranked the best tradition in college sports (http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/4917198) by collegefootballnews.com (link goes to Fox Sports, couldn't find the original article).

Just found out from my bro that TAMU didn't know about it until just a couple of years ago, then they immediately asked the Seahawks to stop. The administration has actually been very cool about the whole situation, but they still get called idiots for making a big deal out of it. I'll post the email that the admins sent out to all the students as soon as I can get my hands on it.

It isn't two bits and it isn't a pep rally. Basically, A&M trademarked it because everyone else started making money off it... absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[Bandera YaYa]

Originally posted by Bulldog_12
Cheer??? Obviously you dont know what the 12th man is here. NOT a cheer. A&M is right in this one and are by no means making fools of ourselves. We are protecting OUR traditions. The reason it is a big deal is because all seattle did in 84 was retire a jersey, no reference was made to "THE 12th MAN" it was only a jersey. A&M then trademarked it in 90 and when Qwest field was built they placed signs reading home of the 12th man. Gee why do I feel like I have seen that before somewhere???? A&M sent cease and desist orders in 04, 05, and now again when EVERYONE is seeing their use of it. This would be like The Texans stealing Hook'em or something to that effect. If you don't protect your trademarks, you lose them. I am thankful A&M is doing this. I'm so sick of listening to aggies claim sole right to the word "tradition"!! I dunno, seems all that time and effort should be put into actually building something worthy of that title....like a winning football team??!! ......but, legal or illegal, you aren't gonna stop the Seattle fans from using it.....hey, maybe it's actually a TRADITION for them too????? In my family, we have a TRADITION of giving presents on our birthdays! Man, I hope no one goes and steals OUR tradition!!! :hand:

[AggieJohn]

i think that they didn't have any gripe before 1990, but since they do have the patents on this and have shown to have been sending cease and desist papers over the last few years i think that it shows that they do need to stop using it.......a&m does own it and uses this phrase for a lot of their own marketing. Phrases are trademarked so other people won't use them, i mean think of all of the "calvin and hobbes" rip offs they have right now on the back of the truck, i suppose that is because the c&h people didn't bother to get that trademarked......and thus probably are recieving no royalties off of it..

[Buccaneer]

Originally posted by big daddy russ


He later added, "I want to sing and dance, I want to sing and dance...
I want to be a pirate in the Pirates of Penzance."

[Keith7]

I think this is rediculous and A&M looks silly for making a big deal over something so small..

This writer was write when he said that there are bigger things A&M needs to worry about besides something as lame as the 12th man..

I realize that is a tradition that has gone on for years, but there are many traditions that teams share.. Next is A&M going to sue gainesville selling "6th man" shirts during basketball games??? or is Notre Dame going to sue almost every team that has something by thier door that they touch before they take the field?? Next time another player jumps into the stands at a game should the Packers sue that player??

Give me a break.. I realize that the performance of A&M's athletics has been on the decline for quit sometime now, and they are probably looking for more ways to raise money for thier deminishing athletic program, but this is kinda pitiful

[left side]

I don't care what anyone says about A&M. The only people who truly know the meaning of the 12th man are those true aggies. You people can complain about us making a big deal about something so small, but this is not something small to us. This is our life. We are the 12th man and we have been since 1922. Where else have you seen a tradition so big last for so long. People can feel sorry for seattle I really don't care. Nobody seems to care for us when we lose. (and i'm not asking for any pity) It even makes the tradition better because our athletic program is on the decline and we still pack 45,000+ students into a football game and stand and cheer the whole time. And quit talking about us trying to copyright cheers and all that B.S. any mature adult should know that this is a matter of pride and tradition. If someone was to come up to you and slander your family name would you just sit back and let them do it? If you would then god have mercy on your family. I think most of this comes from people just looking for ways to hate on Aggieland. If it was any other school I don't think ya'll would be making such a fuss about it, but because its the aggies everyone seems to want to pick on us. This business is between Texas A&M University and the Seattle Seahawks organization. Leave it up to them to work things out.

[CHS_CG]

I seriously think the only reason anybody on here is giving A&M and the rest of us aggies lip about all of this is b/c this board is nothing but "lets poke fun at A&M for everything and anything" I am sorry if it were ANY other team in the world everybody on here would be 100% behind them. If Seattle wants a damn tradition they needa get one for themselves and not use the 12th man. I havent seen the other teams that A&M asked to stop using it whine like Seattle has. A&M has every right to take this to court. It were soo important to Seattle when they retired the jersey number 12 they should patented it and they wouldnt be in this spot.. but did they no. A&M has a patent to use it. There are certain things you mess with and certain things you dont. Like bulldog_12 said if the Texans started using 'hook em horns' would UT just let it slide.. I DONT THINK SO!

[District303aPastPlayer]

their 12th man dates back to their old stadium. the dome they played in... superdome i believe... its nothing new... just new because of their playoff status

[Bulldog_12]

Originally posted by Bandera YaYa
I'm so sick of listening to aggies claim sole right to the word "tradition"!! I dunno, seems all that time and effort should be put into actually building something worthy of that title....like a winning football team??!! ......but, legal or illegal, you aren't gonna stop the Seattle fans from using it.....hey, maybe it's actually a TRADITION for them too????? In my family, we have a TRADITION of giving presents on our birthdays! Man, I hope no one goes and steals OUR tradition!!! :hand:

Nobody is talking about trademarking "tradition" obviously you arent following this because no one said we trademarked TRADITION. You know what I am sick of??? Everyone bashing the Aggies for protecting what is RIGHTFULLY theirs. This is about a copywrited phrase that is being marketed to the public by an NFL team to gain money for themselves. ESPN has said that the Aggies have a case against the seahawks. Sports Illustrated said that if in fact the Aggies do push this into a case in front of a Federal court, that the Hawks will HAVE to back off. trust me, you haven't followed this as intently as I have. This is something that means a LOT to me and a lot of other Aggies. I have looked into various things such as the 2 other cease and desists dated 2004 and 2005 and the restraining order filed just last week. The Ags have a case and will force Seattle to stop.

[Bull Butter]

I'm gonna have to agree with CHS.......This board is becoming less and less about 3A schools and more more about an A&M-UT pissing match. I come to this board to read about and (occasionally) discuss athletics in AAA schools. If I wanted to read about an A&M-UT flame fest, I'd go to Texags.com or Hornfans.com.

[TAMUGRAD]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I guess maybe had I attended college there, I might feel differently!

It just seems "much ado about nothing" to me!

This is exactly why you feel the way you do and why we Aggies feel the way we do.

If it were a part of your school and your traditions you WOULD try to protect them.

[lepfan]

There is a school just down the road from here (ok, it is almost 50 miles from here) that are the Holcomb Longhorns...they use the UT longhorn....When we first moved here I thought geez, there sure are a lot of UT fans up here...little did I know they were all Holcomb High School fans (burnt orange and all). Now, I wonder if someone will report them?