Coach resigns after high school bans pregame prayer [Archive]

kepdawg

10-11-2005, 10:35 PM

Coach resigns after high school bans pregame prayer
Associated Press

EAST BRUNSWICK, N.J. -- A veteran central New Jersey high school football coach has resigned after being told by school officials he could no longer lead his team in pregame prayer.

East Brunswick coach Marcus Borden was told last Friday by Schools Superintendent Jo Ann Magistro that some parents had complained about prayers Borden initiated at pregame meals and before the games.

After being told he would have to stop leading or taking part in the prayers, Borden stepped down from his position, just hours before his team's 21-0 loss to Sayreville that evening.

"I'm very disappointed," Borden said in an interview with News 12 New Jersey Tuesday. "Do I feel we were violating someone's rights? I don't think so."

But East Brunswick school officials think differently. According to school officials, the prayers violated the separation between church and state in public schools.

A spokeswoman for the district, Trish LaDuca, said students have the right to pray on school property during school events, but the prayer must be initiated by the students; otherwise it violates the law.

"A representative of the school district cannot constitutionally initiate prayer, encourage it or lead it," LaDuca told the Home News Tribune of East Brunswick. "Representatives of the school cannot participate in the student-initiated prayer."

During the television interview, aired Tuesday, Borden said what he was doing was not uncommon, and coaches across the state lead similar prayers as part of sporting events.

"I'm not out preaching, I'm not a preacher," said Borden, who has led the football program for 23 years. He has a 116-100-1 career record, and his team won the Central Jersey Group IV championship in 2004.

He is the founder of the Snapple Bowl, a charity all-star football game that has raised more than $150,000 for physically and mentally impaired children.

His resignation has divided the school community, with many students and parents supporting the coach.

On Saturday, a group of more than 50 members of the football team and some of their parents traveled to Borden's home and asked the coach to return.

Nancy Halupka, president of the school's football booster club, said she sympathizes with Borden and said the prayer tradition started long before he arrived at the school.

But school officials, who emphasized that they did not force Borden to resign, said some students felt uncomfortable with the prayer and their concerns should be treated with respect.

Magistro, the district's superintendent, said Borden's resignation won't become official until the school board meets on Oct. 20. She said the former coach can rescind his resignation at any time before the meeting, something Borden said was not likely.

"I believe that I made the right decision," said Borden, a Catholic. "I believe I made a decision based on principle. I believe that's who I am."

Borden could not immediately be reached for comment by The Associated Press Tuesday evening. There is no telephone listing in his name.

District303aPastPlayer

10-11-2005, 10:39 PM

i fully support this coach in his principle...

CHS_CG

10-11-2005, 10:50 PM

I know at our school no school employee can lead a prayer so for band the drummajors lead us and football team i am not sure who starts it but im sure its a captain.

Fish's mom

10-11-2005, 11:15 PM

I agree with the coach 100 percent. We need all the help we can get . May God Bless him and his team. Put God back in our schools, games, courts, etc...............................:)

District303aPastPlayer

10-11-2005, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by Fish's mom
I agree with the coach 100 percent. We need all the help we can get . May God Bless him and his team. Put God back in our schools, games, courts, etc...............................:)

and where were YOU on friday?

RMAC

10-11-2005, 11:21 PM

This is the kind of stuff that just makes me mad. I know we have a constitution, and it's great. But I think over the past few years, my generation is suffering from the decisions of our parents' generation. I'm not pointing fingers by any means, it's just that all decisions have concequences. We talked a few weeks ago at Church that our parents' generation wanted God to leave them alone. Now, we are reaping the effects of those choices. It is instances like this that have resulted from those choices. I think that sometimes people forget that this nation was founded under FAITH IN GOD, that's why the pilgrims came here to begin with; religious oppression. We are ONE NATION UNDER GOD. Just my opinion.

P.s. I am not the most devout christian in the world and I do respect the rights of other people in cases such as this. Maybe I'm just contradicting myself. I don't know. . .

Blastoderm55

10-11-2005, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by RMAC
This is the kind of stuff that just makes me mad. I know we have a constitution, and it's great. But I think over the past few years, my generation is suffering from the decisions of our parents' generation. I'm not pointing fingers by any means, it's just that all decisions have concequences. We talked a few weeks ago at Church that our parents' generation wanted God to leave them alone. Now, we are reaping the effects of those choices. It is instances like this that have resulted from those choices. I think that sometimes people forget that this nation was founded under FAITH IN GOD, that's why the pilgrims came here to begin with; religious oppression. We are ONE NATION UNDER GOD. Just my opinion.

P.s. I am not the most devout christian in the world and I do respect the rights of other people in cases such as this. Maybe I'm just contradicting myself. I don't know. . .

Not to nitpick, but the "pilgrims" as you call them were Calvinists who fled England and the Anglican Church so that they wouldn't be forced to worship the Christian god. It wasn't until later than the people who would become Protestants made their way to the U.S.A.

And "Under God" was just a way of saying "shoo" to commies during the 50s.

As for the Coach, its noble what he's done in taking a stand for what he believes. However, if he forced all players to take part in the prayer, then I feel he was in the wrong.

Fish's mom

10-11-2005, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
and where were YOU on friday?

Praying in the Ingleside Stands, some prayers aren't answered.
If this is in reference to not seeing Panther Fan at half, those meanies wouldn't let me over to Aransas side during half time even though I parked over there.

RMAC

10-11-2005, 11:27 PM

My bad. . . maybe that's why I got like a 75 on my history test last week. . . DOH!

Fish's mom

10-11-2005, 11:28 PM

slpybear the bullfan

10-11-2005, 11:29 PM

Where does it say there is a "seperation between church and state" in the constitution?

;)

District303aPastPlayer

10-11-2005, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Fish's mom
Praying in the Ingleside Stands, some prayers aren't answered.
If this is in reference to not seeing Panther Fan at half, those meanies wouldn't let me over to Aransas side during half time even though I parked over there.

those bastages... (can i say that)

Fish's mom

10-11-2005, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
those bastages... (can i say that)
LOL
Going over there during our week off. But can't say I'll wear they're colors HAHA

Our coaches pray with our players(after game, in the past was before) and it's their choice if they join or not(players and coaches) And is usually lead by the players. They realize that there is someone more powerful then us, not matter what way they choose to believe in. I personally like the moment of silence before the game starts that most schools do.

Blastoderm55

10-11-2005, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by slpybear the bullfan
Where does it say there is a "seperation between church and state" in the constitution?

;)

That part called the first amendment.

Txbroadcaster

10-11-2005, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
That part called the first amendment.

No where in the constiution or any other government documents does it say anything about sepration of church and state. That saying was actually in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a church orginzation when he was assuring them that the government would not interfere with their affairs.

this is what the first amendment says

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

RMAC

10-11-2005, 11:54 PM

This is gonna be an interesting thread. . .

Blastoderm55

10-11-2005, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
No where in the constiution or any other government documents does it say anything about sepration of church and state. That saying was actually in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a church orginzation when he was assuring them that the government would not interfere with their affairs.

this is what the first amendment says

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Seems pretty spelled out if you ask me. I won't argue about this here though. so have a good one.

Txbroadcaster

10-12-2005, 12:04 AM

How does that spell out seperation of church and state they way that people use that term today? It is used now to mean that schools should not allow prayer and stuff like that, and that was not what that statement means at all.

LogieJoeBean001

10-12-2005, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
How does that spell out seperation of church and state they way that people use that term today? It is used now to mean that schools should not allow prayer and stuff like that, and that was not what that statement means at all.

Exactly! This...my interpretation...is saying that CONGRESS shall make no law...but isn't that exactly what they have done? When prayer in school was prohibited, it stepped on the rights of the majority...not the minority. So, in essence, it would appear...and note I said appear...that the minority rules on this issue. What about the rights of those who WANT TO! Who's standing up for their rights?

Hupernikomen

10-12-2005, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Not to nitpick, but the "pilgrims" as you call them were Calvinists who fled England and the Anglican Church so that they wouldn't be forced to worship the Christian god. It wasn't until later than the people who would become Protestants made their way to the U.S.A.

And "Under God" was just a way of saying "shoo" to commies during the 50s.

As for the Coach, its noble what he's done in taking a stand for what he believes. However, if he forced all players to take part in the prayer, then I feel he was in the wrong.

Calvinist are protestants and were part of the reformation movement.

SINTON81

10-12-2005, 08:06 AM

I thought that the Calvinists and the Anglicans worshiped the same Christian God.

Dogman_1969

10-12-2005, 08:07 AM

By not allowing prayer in schools and sporting events, there is a violation of rights going on. The right to everyone who wants to pray is being violated. If you don't want to pray then don't. But don't take the right to pray away from the ones that do.

LH Panther Mom

10-12-2005, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by LogieJoeBean001
Exactly! This...my interpretation...is saying that CONGRESS shall make no law...but isn't that exactly what they have done? When prayer in school was prohibited, it stepped on the rights of the majority...not the minority. So, in essence, it would appear...and note I said appear...that the minority rules on this issue. What about the rights of those who WANT TO! Who's standing up for their rights?
Prayer is not prohibited in school. What is prohibited is organized prayer. Each person has the right to pray at any time on their own; it is the schools, or officials, that do not have the rights to lead prayer.

JasperDog94

10-12-2005, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by SINTON81
I thought that the Calvinists and the Anglicans worshiped the same Christian God. They do. It's the details regarding salvation that they disagree on. But that's another subject entirely.

JasperDog94

10-12-2005, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Seems pretty spelled out if you ask me. I won't argue about this here though. so have a good one. By telling people they can't pray IS establishing a relegion...atheism.

SINTON81

10-12-2005, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by JasperDog94
By telling people they can't pray IS establishing a relegion...atheism.

Thats right.:clap: :clap:

BMOC

10-12-2005, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by Dogman_1969
By not allowing prayer in schools and sporting events, there is a violation of rights going on. The right to everyone who wants to pray is being violated. If you don't want to pray then don't. But don't take the right to pray away from the ones that do.

Very Well Put Dogman.

My thoughts exactly!!!!

vet93

10-12-2005, 10:13 AM

Irony of Ironies....the founding fathers were intent on protecting the church from the state and that is what is reflected in Jefferson's letter regarding "seperation of church and state". However, now, in our totally messed up, revisionist world the same phrase has been stolen and used as a rallying cry for those who want to use the government to bludgeon people of faith. Common sense has all but left us these days...simply put...if you do not wish to participate in a team prayer, then quietly, out of respect for your teamates...don't participate. Why not just pray silently to yourself?...while this is a good way to pray and should be the norm for most prayer....there is a special bonding dynamic that occurs when people of faith bow their heads and lift up prayer concerns together for the common good.

Bullaholic

10-12-2005, 11:04 AM

I am a Christian, and very much believe in prayer. However, the central core of this ruling is always tested by this scenario: If the coach were a Satanist, should he be allowed to conduct a non-denominational Satanist prayer? Under our system if Christians win the right to prayer, everybody else wins, too.

vet93

10-12-2005, 11:38 AM

While I understand your argument...in my opinion, that is not a reason to "throw the baby out with the bath water". If a majority of the team does not feel comfortable praying before the game, then do not pray. However, if the team would like the coach to lead them in prayer before kickoff, then they should be able to do that. If the coaches says guys....lets pray to satan before the game....then players ought to have every right to say "Coach, that makes us uncomfortable and we don't want to do that". If a majority want to pray to satan...then so be it...then our problem is far worse than prayer in school or lack there of. In the case of the minority who may not want to pray....then by all means abstain.

LH Panther Mom

10-12-2005, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Bullaholic
I am a Christian, and very much believe in prayer. However, the central core of this ruling is always tested by this scenario: If the coach were a Satanist, should he be allowed to conduct a non-denominational Satanist prayer? Under our system if Christians win the right to prayer, everybody else wins, too.

And there you have the perfect reasoning why the school was correct in their decision. I can't even begin to imagine the outrage that would have occurred amongst the parents had the coach led the players in such a prayer.

rockdale80

10-12-2005, 03:31 PM

Or another scenario is if just one kid on the team feels uncomfortable praying, and not because he is an atheist or satanist, but just say a jewish kid, or something of that nature. When the team starts to pray and the coach calls everyone in to take a knee and pray how is he to stand up to a coach?I can't imagine how hard it would be to stand up to your coach and tell him you dont have the same religious practices. The ruling doesnt say you cant pray, but that school officials cant lead it. Why is that such a bad thing? I am a christian, and I pray, but just because I do doesnt mean that I should make others follow what I do. Religion should start at home. If I had children I would not want someone with another religous belief telling my children to pray to the coach's god. If the coach were leading a jewish or islamic prayer noone would care about him resigning. Would you be saying the same thing about backing up the coach on his decision, or argueing about what the framers of the constitution meant. Chrisitianity isn't the only religion out there.

44INAROW

10-12-2005, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Calvinists .

Wasn't he Hobbes friend :D :D

I have no idea what goes on in the field house before the Cuero games, but after games, the team gathers together, holding hands in front of the stands and recite a saying "Day by Day" and then they do a prayer in unison. Not mandatory, it's all voluntary and I think it is great! It is all done by the players, the coaches are not leading - guess that's the difference.

football4life

10-12-2005, 09:05 PM

I just can't understand the people who complain or feel "uncomfortable." It's not like the coach was forcing them to say anything. Is it that hard to sit there through the prayer? Maybe it's just me, but I dont see anything about a prayer that would make me feel uncomfortable, especially when most of a football prayer is asking for protection and the ability to play hard.

rockdale80

10-12-2005, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by football4life
I just can't understand the people who complain or feel "uncomfortable." It's not like the coach was forcing them to say anything. Is it that hard to sit there through the prayer? Maybe it's just me, but I dont see anything about a prayer that would make me feel uncomfortable, especially when most of a football prayer is asking for protection and the ability to play hard.

no, but if the coach was leading a prayer in islam then most of the parents on this board would be outraged. It is the same situation.

Gobbla2001

10-12-2005, 09:38 PM

Yah, I'd be outraged if a coach led the prayer in Islam... One nation under God, not Ala... And I'd expect people in the middle-east to be outraged if I were in their country leading a christian prayer...

either way, I'm not going to force kids to pray... if 80 percent of my team is christian, I want them to take their faith into the game... if 80 percent of them are buddhist, I want them to take their faith into the game... they can say whatever prayer they want to, it's their belief, I do not need to agree with it or disagree with it being said...

I've been around people who have things totally different... personally, I hate the word Goddamn (used in an example here, don't ban me ha), but if that makes the folks I am around feel better, it doesn't hurt me bad enough to gripe and moan, I'm gunna sit there and make myself feel better my own way...

If I were surrounded by a bunch of Islamic folks saying their prayers before the game because I happen to be the minority when it comes to religion, I'm gunna say my lord's prayer under my breath while they express their faith...

sticks and stones may break my bones, but a prayer aint gunna hurt me... no matter where it comes from (okay, minus satanic or anti-Gobbler)

Gobbla2001

10-12-2005, 09:43 PM

Went on posting and didn't even get to another point I planned to make...

If he initiates the prayers then yah, I can agree with it being stopped... because if he can do it, so can every other coach/teacher representing any other religion, no matter what it is and its purpose, and we'd have an even bigger mess right now...

But if his players encourage him to initiate prayers, then I can understand what he was doing though it was not helping out the separation of church and state blah blah deal...

Law is law and should be followed...

But it is good to see someone stand up for what he believes...

Txbroadcaster

10-12-2005, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
Yah, I'd be outraged if a coach led the prayer in Islam... One nation under God, not Ala... And I'd expect people in the middle-east to be outraged if I were in their country leading a christian prayer...

either way, I'm not going to force kids to pray... if 80 percent of my team is christian, I want them to take their faith into the game... if 80 percent of them are buddhist, I want them to take their faith into the game... they can say whatever prayer they want to, it's their belief, I do not need to agree with it or disagree with it being said...

I've been around people who have things totally different... personally, I hate the word Goddamn (used in an example here, don't ban me ha), but if that makes the folks I am around feel better, it doesn't hurt me bad enough to gripe and moan, I'm gunna sit there and make myself feel better my own way...

If I were surrounded by a bunch of Islamic folks saying their prayers before the game because I happen to be the minority when it comes to religion, I'm gunna say my lord's prayer under my breath while they express their faith...

sticks and stones may break my bones, but a prayer aint gunna hurt me... no matter where it comes from (okay, minus satanic or anti-Gobbler)

You contradict yourself. You say you would be outraged if a coach wanted to lead team in a islamic prayer, then you say it would not bother you.

Gobbla2001

10-12-2005, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
You contradict yourself. You say you would be outraged if a coach wanted to lead team in a islamic prayer, then you say it would not bother you.

You do not pay attention, I said if it were led by a 'coach'...

rockdale80

10-12-2005, 09:47 PM

Agree with some of what you say Gobbla, but in case you havent noticed this nation is comprised of many different ethnicities and religions. Just saying, if someone wants to teach religion it should be the parents at home. I say my prayers and dont try to make others believe the same things as I do, and I feel like they should do the same to me. And if the whole team wants to get together and pray that is fine. Our coach did and noone was offended because we all believed the same thing. I was just saying that if a coach did lead prayer in islam then most people would be happy he resigned or tried to run him/her out of town on their own. Having the mentality that this is solely a christian nation only leads to more indifference.

Txbroadcaster

10-12-2005, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
You do not pay attention, I said if it were led by a 'coach'...

So if the coach leads a christian prayer then it is ok, and those not christian can just not prey..But if the prayer is islamic then you would be outraged?

Gobbla2001

10-12-2005, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Agree with some of what you say Gobbla, but in case you havent noticed this nation is comprised of many different ethnicities and religions. Just saying, if someone wants to teach religion it should be the parents at home. I say my prayers and dont try to make others believe the same things as I do, and I feel like they should do the same to me. And if the whole team wants to get together and pray that is fine. Our coach did and noone was offended because we all believed the same thing. I was just saying that if a coach did lead prayer in islam then most people would be happy he resigned or tried to run him/her out of town on their own. Having the mentality that this is solely a christian nation only leads to more indifference.

I see what you're saying... I do not mean this nation is solely Christian nation, just saying that it is one nation under God, meaning the Christian faith would seem to be more accepted and expected, in the middle-east other religions would be more accepted and expected...

It's kind of like walking into a stranger's house and putting your feet on his couch (rick james style), you can do it in your house all you want, but not in mine...

I also agree with it being the parents' job... your parents have an idea of where they want to lead you while under their roof, some teachers' views, though Christian, conflict the ideas of your parents, which ticked my parents off once or twice...

Gobbla2001

10-12-2005, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
So if the coach leads a christian prayer then it is ok, and those not christian can just not prey..But if the prayer is islamic then you would be outraged?

Yah, I would... nothing against the islamic relgion, but I'd expect the same out of them if we had an islamic country's version of a coach leading christian prayers in their country to a majority of islamic children...

read my latest reply to rockdale80 and try to understand where I am coming from...

You can walk into Yankee stadium wearing a Yankees jersey, but don't expect the same treatment if you're wearing a Red-Sox one...

I'm coming up with everything I can here haha...

Gobbla2001

10-12-2005, 10:04 PM

Txbroadcaster

10-12-2005, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
If you're wanting me to say I hate islamics, you're talking to the wrong guy...

Geez, the media... always digging for dirt...

LOL not at all, was just confused by what you was saying. Not trying to trap you or get u to say something. Sorry if ya thought that

Gobbla2001

10-12-2005, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
LOL not at all, was just confused by what you was saying. Not trying to trap you or get u to say something. Sorry if ya thought that

You don't seem like the trapping type, but just incase you were, I had to say it...

When I type about a subject of great interest to me, I just keep typing until I click "Submit", not time to think really... sorry for the confusion, there's a message behind it somewhere...

Leopards,class of 75

10-12-2005, 10:14 PM

Ranger Mom

10-12-2005, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Leopards,class of 75
Amen to that!!!! God will bless this coach for taking a stand. Sad day in America!!!!

I agree! All this talk reminds me of an email I got (as I am sure all of you did, since I received it about 50 times)! This may not have been written by a student or 100% accurate as far as the law goes....but I still like it!!:D

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.

If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.

We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.

We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.

We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.

It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!

Amen

Ranger Mom

10-12-2005, 11:14 PM

We haven't done it lately for some reason....but for a while, a pre-game prayer was "broadcast" from the church's PA system. The church sits beside the school so it was loud and clear!

Owen B

10-12-2005, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
... if the coach was leading a prayer in islam then most of the parents on this board would be outraged.
Heck, I'd bet that most parents on this board would be offended, if not outraged, if a Catholic coach led a prayer that included the Sign of the Cross. And I'm certain that many would be furious if a coach led the team in a "Hail Mary" or something similar.

Owen B

10-12-2005, 11:39 PM

I'd also like to point out that NOBODY has banned or even tried to ban prayer from schools.

Ranger Mom

10-12-2005, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Owen B
I'd also like to point out that NOBODY has banned or even tried to ban prayer from schools.

I wouldn't go as far as to say NOBODY has tried...how can we possibly know that?

But here is what the law states:

Praying in school is not against the law. In fact, the U.S. Constitution guarantees students the right to pray in public schools; it is a protected form of free speech. A student can pray on the school bus, in the corridors, in the cafeteria, in their student-run Bible club, at the flagpole, sports stadium, and elsewhere on school grounds. They can even pray silently before and after class in the classroom. They are not allowed to pray solely Christian prayers as an organized part of the school schedule. However, they may be able to hear or read prayers from a variety of religious traditions and inspiring statements from secular sources. Prayers cannot solely be from a single religious faith group.