Bridge City - 2005

[Jody]

What happend in Bridge City this year? They seem to have been quietly ressurected. Old Cardinal I know you have the scoop, so fill us in. Is Kirbyville in the same bad shape as everyone else in that area or is BC that good this year?

You all should beat WOS this year.

[skiffer]

I WONDER IF THE SPARKS KID CAN PLAY AT DIV. 1 ?????

[skiffer]

I ALSO HOPE B-C BEATS WO-S, THEY HAVE THE SPEED TO DO IT, AND I ALSO HOPE IF B-HILL PLAYS WO-S AND JASPER IN THE EARLY ROUNDS IN THE PLAYOFFS, THEY BOTH GO DOWN!!!

[JasperDog94]

Now Jody...You're only allowed one account. No more. No less.;)

[Jody]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Now Jody...You're only allowed one account. No more. No less.;)

I don't understand this comment? I only have one account.

[JasperDog94]

:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

[3rdone]

the speed to beat WOS???? B-C? Hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spiveyrat]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

Ditto that! :thinking:

[Pigskin 2004]

what makes bridge city the best team in the area now? Because they beat Liberty and Kirbyville?? haha

that's a good one. If they beat Jasper next week, then I'll say they improved a lot from last year!!

[89JDAWG]

I think reality will set in on the long ride home from Jasper. Much like a few years ago in the dome.

[Hupernikomen]

Originally posted by 89JDAWG
I think reality will set in on the long ride home from Jasper. Much like a few years ago in the dome.


I believe they played Bridge City in Conroe and Bay City the year before in the dome (it was a long ride home for the dawgs in that one).

[Supertilley]

Come on! They play in mustang stadium. BC is the least of my worries. H-J will be the best test for the mustangs in district.

[shellman54]

don't look ahead. take it one game at a time. you look ahead, you lose focus, and anything could happen.

[Supertilley]

Originally posted by shellman54
don't look ahead. take it one game at a time. you look ahead, you lose focus, and anything could happen.

I can look ahead....I don't play on the team. But i see what your saying.;)

[ALLSPORTSGUY]

I hope WOS players have the same atttitude as the fans and take BC lightly. It very well could be an upset in the making.

[Supertilley]

No No No. Wo-s took them lighty last year. BC had their chance and when it came to gut check time....BC choked.

Trust me wo-s was embarrased last year and will not take them the same way.

[exbccards76'smom]

Our team is full of seniors this year: almost 30 compared to last year's 6. You need seniors to lead the team. We will take it one game at a time.

[Old Cardinal]

You sitting in San Antonio really know a lot about BC speed, right?
BC has 5 of the fastest in 3A. Cody Sparks at 6' 4" 225 ran right up the back of Newton's fastest back, who is touted as the fastest in 2A. Cody won his first District Championship in the hurdles as a 9th grader! He can go Division I in four different sports! "Go Johnny Go" Dishon also caught him(Newton's fastback) in short duration. Derrick Coleman of baseball fame is actually the fastest on the team. They won the District in track last year with a good showing in sprint races and a super showing on longer races.
Listen, Liberty and Kirbyville are going to be playoff teams again this year. They are handling other teams real well. BCs speed was just no match for them.
BC has a long way to go in optimizing the potential that is there.
Example: Randy Jennings(who is R.C. Slocum's stepson) and possibly a candidate for a basketball scholarship decided to play football this year to try to give the team a little depth--he has not played since the 8th grade. He like many of the Baseball team that joined him as Seniors have a lot to learn but are good athletes.
BC may well be giving up a State Championship in baseball this year because their team has dropped off the Select teams to back up the football squad.
I won't make any gross predictions but I am proud that these athletes that are Seniors have maybe jeaprodized their scholarships in a number of their prime sport specialties to back up and even augment the football program this year
.
You keep looking down on Bellville, Borger, Bridge City, Huffman, and Barbers Hill and one of them may well burn you for the semifinals or even the State Championship....

[wos fan1]

Originally posted by skiffer
I ALSO HOPE B-C BEATS WO-S, THEY HAVE THE SPEED TO DO IT, AND I ALSO HOPE IF B-HILL PLAYS WO-S AND JASPER IN THE EARLY ROUNDS IN THE PLAYOFFS, THEY BOTH GO DOWN!!! Won't happen! I hope BH loses early!!

[Old Cardinal]

Tilley "BC choked"???? may win the silliest post of the year! BC tied you and in overtime, a bad exchange between the center and QB caused a fumble--Orange had nothing to do in causing the fumble, but you were the recipient of that fumble and the win.
If you play BC with the present team that you have-- there is a good chance they will beat the "greatest HS football team of all time".

[Supertilley]

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
You sitting in San Antonio really know a lot about BC speed, right?
BC has 5 of the fastest in 3A. Cody Sparks at 6' 4" 225 ran right up the back of Newton's fastest back, who is touted as the fastest in 2A. Cody won his first District Championship in the hurdles as a 9th grader! He can go Division I in four different sports!

att/ yd/avg/td
Clifton Simien 48 402 8.4 4 H-J
Dale Armand 30 260 8.7 3 BC
John Dishon 25 156 6.2 4 BC

This kid here only has 2 catches on the year.
Cody Sparks 2 18 9 0

Simien is the real deal.

[Pigskin 2004]

we will find out on 11/4. I can't wait. and OC, that thing about BC giving up a state championship in baseball to help the football team is the biggest crock of s$%# I have ever heard. BC wouldn't win state if they had no football team at all. Yes they will win the district but no state championship pal. Better follow the cross country team!!

[Pigskin 2004]

and yes, liberty and k-ville will make the playoffs. All they have to do is beat the likes of buna, shepherd, coldspring, cleveland, tarkington, splendora to take 3rd in their district. woooo big accomplishment!!!! Congratulations, we automatically give your Cardinals a bye to the state semifinals, they just have too much speed for anyone to contend with them!!:rolleyes:

[Old Cardinal]

Sparks plays defense as the primary! They don't have to throw to him; the other receivers are also good.
BC has started subbing in the second quarter in both games.
Leaving Dishon and Armand in the ballgame and they would have very superior stats. That is not to say that H-J does not have a good ball team they too are beating some respectable teams this year thusfar.
"choked"! Wow, what a silly statement.

[Supertilley]

Yeah oldcard, choked. BC had that game. They played amazing the whole game, untill the real heat came. When you mess up underpresure it's called choking. They say that about every kicker that misses a gaming winning FG. "Choke" The same thing applys. What would you sum it up as? I know you wouldn't give wo-s props because all they did was fall on the ball. A bad exchange under preasure is concidered "choking"!

[Old Cardinal]

To Pigskin 2004: BC had the second best team in the final four. Our two Pitchers Haymon and Angelle have stayed with the SunDevil Select team(during football season) so we will be allright. Yes, If they could beat WO-S with an almost all Senior team last year, I don't think the Mustangs will ever recover in the foreseeable future to beat BC in baseball. You do have one good player however in the upcoming baseball season--Nick Ayers.

[Old Cardinal]

OK-- so by your definition they choked. Isn't it amazing after all the Orange fan blabbing all year, you end up tied and into overtime by a town that has a number of its athletes specializing in other sports to get college scholarships that year( in your District)! Then an unherald Huffman team takes the braggers out in the very first bi-district game.
Yet once again you are on here making statements like you are head-and-shoulders above all these other 3A hardworking teams. No wonder folks are getting tired of hearing this barrage of stuff all year long.

[Hupernikomen]

Your select team babble gets a bit old.

Not like those are going to forget how to play baseball while on the football field.

You make it sound like BC has 40 kids get D-I scholarship every year.

[Jody]

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
Tilley "BC choked"???? may win the silliest post of the year! BC tied you and in overtime, a bad exchange between the center and QB caused a fumble--Orange had nothing to do in causing the fumble, but you were the recipient of that fumble and the win.
If you play BC with the present team that you have-- there is a good chance they will beat the "greatest HS football team of all time".

Old Card, remind me to buy you a hot dog for that one. "The greatest football team of all time." Now that is funny stuff.

[Supertilley]

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
OK-- so by your definition they choked. Isn't it amazing after all the Orange fan blabbing all year, you end up tied and into overtime by a town that has a number of its athletes specializing in other sports to get college scholarships that year( in your District)! Then an unherald Huffman team takes the braggers out in the very first bi-district game.
Yet once again you are on here making statements like you are head-and-shoulders above all these other 3A hardworking teams. No wonder folks are getting tired of hearing this barrage of stuff all year long.

Head and shoulders.....I said Bridge City Played a hell of a game last year. I said they choked when it counted. Not because they were playing horrible, maybe because they had not been in that situation much.
You say you will maule wo-s this year then fine. That is your opinion. You have more than wo-s to worry about this year. H-J is looking great, and I think orangefeild will play you to the last down in the bayou bowl.

[Pigskin 2004]

find in my post where I said WO-S would beat BC in baseball. I believe I said BC would win the district. You are a master at turning things around and making ---- up!! And you backed me up by saying BC had the 2nd best team, 2nd won't get you a championship. And ya'll lost some awful big sticks. But that arguement is for another day, like in Feb. This is football season, who cares about the other sports!!

[RBARKER]

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
OK-- so by your definition they choked. Isn't it amazing after all the Orange fan blabbing all year, you end up tied and into overtime by a town that has a number of its athletes specializing in other sports to get college scholarships that year( in your District)! Then an unherald Huffman team takes the braggers out in the very first bi-district game.
Yet once again you are on here making statements like you are head-and-shoulders above all these other 3A hardworking teams. No wonder folks are getting tired of hearing this barrage of stuff all year long.

Amen :clap:

[Supertilley]

Originally posted by RBARKER
Amen :clap:

Rbarker, yall made all kinds of noise last year and what did kirbyville do to shut you up in round two of the small school.

[RBARKER]

Originally posted by Supertilley
Rbarker, yall made all kinds of noise last year and what did kirbyville do to shut you up in round two of the small school.

At least we were in round two :D

[Supertilley]

Yeah, they had half the kids in school you guys got....and dubbled the score you guys put up.

[RBARKER]

Originally posted by Supertilley
Yeah, they had half the kids in school you guys got....and dubbled the score you guys put up.

Kirbyville had a good team last year and we were out coached again. I have never claimed that BH is the best team in the world and all other teams are below them. WOS makes every post they put out seem that way. After this year yall will learn that WOS is just another good 3A team, they are no more dominate.

[WOS92]

Your reading comprehension scores must be baseline, rbarker. I said last week that I almost expected to lose against Bay City. Find a post where I said I expected to beat Jasper. Maybe one about Nederland. Find one where I said we should be #1. Maybe one day you'll have a team to love instead of just one to hate, too.

[RBARKER]

Originally posted by WOS92
Your reading comprehension scores must be baseline, rbarker. I said last week that I almost expected to lose against Bay City. Find a post where I said I expected to beat Jasper. Maybe one about Nederland. Find one where I said we should be #1. Maybe one day you'll have a team to love instead of just one to hate, too.

Giv me a break WOS92 quit your whining. When I am typing about WOS I am talking about various WOS posters just not you. WA WA WA WA. Your team is good and I have said that atleast 10 times over the last couple of days. We disagree about the Mustangs can't we leave it at that. You or no other WOS poster is going to make me beleive that WOS is this great unbeatable team. They are a top team in the state as well as 15 others.

[RBARKER]

Originally posted by Supertilley
Yeah, they had half the kids in school you guys got....and dubbled the score you guys put up.

my hat was off to Kirbyville, its nice to see a team with a low school population compete as they did. That why I respect Newton so much, they are the big boys now, but the used to beat up on everyone.

[Supertilley]

Originally posted by RBARKER
my hat was off to Kirbyville, its nice to see a team with a low school population compete as they did. That why I respect Newton so much, they are the big boys now, but the used to beat up on everyone.

LOL. With all this crap going on I can still find something to agree with you on. Newton and coach barbay are some MFBA's.

[RBARKER]

Originally posted by Supertilley
LOL. With all this crap going on I can still find something to agree with you on. Newton and coach barbay are some MFBA's.

See I'm not that bad :D :D

[eagle.eyes]

Old Card, is it true Angelle committed to A&M?

[Jody]

Originally posted by RBARKER
Giv me a break WOS92 quit your whining. When I am typing about WOS I am talking about various WOS posters just not you. WA WA WA WA. Your team is good and I have said that atleast 10 times over the last couple of days. We disagree about the Mustangs can't we leave it at that. You or no other WOS poster is going to make me beleive that WOS is this great unbeatable team. They are a top team in the state as well as 15 others.

He's not the brightest crayon in the box, is he (WOS92)? :D

[ej2525]

Originally posted by RBARKER
At least we were in round two :D

:clap: :doh: :doh: :thumbsup:

[Old Cardinal]

Hey Jody, I like that one about about --not the brightest crayola.......Lets see if we can get others to join in in discribing the Orange posters...
Here goes--Pigskin 2004, is-- not the sharpest tool in the shed! How was that?

Maybe others can join in on discribing Orange posters.

[3rdone]

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
You sitting in San Antonio really know a lot about BC speed, right?
BC has 5 of the fastest in 3A. Cody Sparks at 6' 4" 225 ran right up the back of Newton's fastest back, who is touted as the fastest in 2A. Cody won his first District Championship in the hurdles as a 9th grader! He can go Division I in four different sports! "Go Johnny Go" Dishon also caught him(Newton's fastback) in short duration. Derrick Coleman of baseball fame is actually the fastest on the team. They won the District in track last year with a good showing in sprint races and a super showing on longer races.
Listen, Liberty and Kirbyville are going to be playoff teams again this year. They are handling other teams real well. BCs speed was just no match for them.
BC has a long way to go in optimizing the potential that is there.
Example: Randy Jennings(who is R.C. Slocum's stepson) and possibly a candidate for a basketball scholarship decided to play football this year to try to give the team a little depth--he has not played since the 8th grade. He like many of the Baseball team that joined him as Seniors have a lot to learn but are good athletes.
BC may well be giving up a State Championship in baseball this year because their team has dropped off the Select teams to back up the football squad.
I won't make any gross predictions but I am proud that these athletes that are Seniors have maybe jeaprodized their scholarships in a number of their prime sport specialties to back up and even augment the football program this year
.
You keep looking down on Bellville, Borger, Bridge City, Huffman, and Barbers Hill and one of them may well burn you for the semifinals or even the State Championship....


Yeah I would, I went to WOS...I also talk to the coaches on a regular basis, and they even admit that was the weakest team WOS has had since I believe he said '83, and BC still couldn't win...what in the H#$ makes you think they will beat WOS this year? Because they got a couple of wins? BC is in for a rude awakening....

[Supertilley]

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
Hey Jody, I like that one about about --not the brightest crayola.......Lets see if we can get others to join in in discribing the Orange posters...
Here goes--Pigskin 2004, is-- not the sharpest tool in the shed! How was that?

Maybe others can join in on discribing Orange posters.

I got one for you OLDCARD......one word.....alzahimers!

[Old Cardinal]

Well my my, you folks were bragging that that was one of the best teams you had ever had even in 5A, right up to the BC ballgame--now you turn on those kids and say they were the worst since 1983. You can't have it both ways!! I still don't think you have a clue on the speed of BCs little team.
I say they(WO-S) was a good team that must have listened to all the cockiness of all those Orange fans last year.

[Old Cardinal]

Hey Sillytilley: the word is spelled "Alzheimer's" Disease..........Now I have one--Jody-- see how I do....Tilley has the IQ approaching a banana peel on his best days.

[Supertilley]

Well whatever the case is oldcard, Bridge City is still 0 for forever vs. wo-s.

[Supertilley]

Originally posted by Supertilley
Well whatever the case is oldcard, Bridge City is still 0 for forever vs. wo-s.

How do you like those bananas? Stings a little dosen't it?

[wos fan1]

BC does have a good team don't get me wrong, especially with all the Seniors back. I just don't think they'll be us at the Corral, just don't think it will happen.

[bccards]

Guys this game is still far out in the future.. BOTH teams will be improving game after game.. I'm not looking that far in advance.. It's not worth it at this point in time. Now come week 8/9, let the talks begin. It's still too early to see how well either team will do, especially once the playoffs are around.. Hopefully both teams will be peaking at the right times.

[Supertilley]

Your right.....to be continued....

[RBARKER]

Originally posted by Supertilley
Your right.....to be continued....

Ok but BH still ROCKS :D

[X Man]

The Bridge City team this year, seems to have it together. It would be a mistake for anyone to take them for granted. From what I can tell, this may be as good of a team as they have ever had. I still don't think they can take WOS.

[WOS92]

You represent BC with class, Old Card, when you go around insulting everyone from Orange simply out of bitterness. You're the one here who was talking about how Bridge City is going to run through district untouched and was unmatched in the state in speed.
Personally, for an old guy, I'd think your parents would be ashamed at how immature and ignorant you are today. I feel for 'em.

[Hupernikomen]

Originally posted by X Man
The Bridge City team this year, seems to have it together. It would be a mistake for anyone to take them for granted. From what I can tell, this may be as good of a team as they have ever had. I still don't think they can take WOS.

i don't know about ever..they have had some really good teams.

I doubt this team is as good as the peebles team of a few years ago, but I haven't seen this group yet.

[Paratrooper]

Originally posted by Supertilley
Come on! They play in mustang stadium. BC is the least of my worries. H-J will be the best test for the mustangs in district.

WOS barely got past BC last year. This year Bridge City is even better.

[pantherpop]

I think its fair to say that both of these teams will make a statement this season come playoff time. To me its no suprise that WOS is playing at this level, but it is a bit of a suprise that BC is. The Cardinals always have some talent but have had some problems putting it all together the last few years. This year seems to be the exception. I know they rolled all over us a couple of weeks ago and while I know Liberty is not a top notch team we usually make things close. A friend of mine from Dayton went to the Dayton-WOS scrimmage and believe me he is a big fan of Dayton and he told me that WOS intimidated the Broncos with their size, speed, and athleticism. I know I spelled that wrong. With all the trash talked between these two rivals I know I would love to be there when these two clash in district. Should be a heck of a game. It would be something to see if you guys would give each other the same respect that both of your teams players give each other during their game. When we play Barbers Hill, who I know is Libertys biggest rival and I'm sure they would say the same, there is alot of trash talked on this board but it is in good taste and good fun. There is always respect on both sides for each other.

Just my 2 cents worth

[JHS_c/o_06']

You crazy golden triangle people.....:rolleyes: :D

[WOS92]

It's not really a rivalry. They hate us, but to be a rivalry, it has to be somewhat even in the series. This series is 16-0 for WO-S. It's hard to be respectful when someone is as spiteful and delusional about WO-S people as OC.

[wos fan1]

Originally posted by Paratrooper
WOS barely got past BC last year. This year Bridge City is even better. And WOS is much better this year than last.

[Paratrooper]

Originally posted by Supertilley
Well whatever the case is oldcard, Bridge City is still 0 for forever vs. wo-s.

West Orange has been beaten by Bridge City numerous times. Once West Orange consolidated schools to form what is now called West Orange Stark is when they started winning. It would be the equilvalant of Bridge City and Orangefield merging. Bridge City was a small 4A school, and if my memory serves me right WOS was a 5A. They dropped down to 4A but were a large 4A school. Then finally after everyone got tired of the crime over in Orange you see them entering the 3A picture. WOS in the 90's beat Bridge City handily on just about every occasion, but now that the numbers are getting closer you are starting to see WOS falter as in last year. It's good to be king when you have the numbers, but I am sure crime will continue over in Orange and the numbers will continue to drop making it open season on the Mustangs.

[WOS92]

We know why people are leaving WO-S, and it has nothing to do with crime. A friend of mine whose kid goes to BC put it very straightforward yesterday, and I won't even say what that reason is. Let's just say it's a rhyming, two-word phrase that ends with "flight."

And WO-S is not the same as West Orange, not the same as Stark, and not the same as Wallace. It's a combination of the three schools that has become an entirely new entity. Old WO grads consider the school dead and gone. There's even a memorial in Orange. We said BC has never beaten WO-S (note the -S). We can't really account for a school none of us attended nor ever saw play.

[Supertilley]

Originally posted by Paratrooper
West Orange has been beaten by Bridge City numerous times. Once West Orange consolidated schools to form what is now called West Orange Stark is when they started winning. It would be the equilvalant of Bridge City and Orangefield merging. Bridge City was a small 4A school, and if my memory serves me right WOS was a 5A. They dropped down to 4A but were a large 4A school. Then finally after everyone got tired of the crime over in Orange you see them entering the 3A picture. WOS in the 90's beat Bridge City handily on just about every occasion, but now that the numbers are getting closer you are starting to see WOS falter as in last year. It's good to be king when you have the numbers, but I am sure crime will continue over in Orange and the numbers will continue to drop making it open season on the Mustangs.

No wonder you jump out of planes!

[Paratrooper]

Originally posted by Supertilley
No wonder you jump out of planes!

Yes you got me, I know you being from Sabine Pass you must have locked down that one and only 7-11 job they have over there. Proud of you guy! Now, what part of my quote was wrong? Bridge City for the most part played WOS in the 90's. It is where those wins were picked up. Bridge City was the 3rd smallest school in 4A and WOS coming out of the 5A's was one of the largest 4A's in the state. A large amount of people have moved out of that part of Orange. Orange as well as Port Arthur has really gone down hill. However, just putting up a little history on the boards.

[GS#17]

finally after everyone got tired of the crime over in Orange you see them entering the 3A picture.


I am sure crime will continue over in Orange and the numbers will continue to drop making it open season on the Mustangs.

Nice try. BC has it's share of sex offenders, drug users and dealers, vandals, and other scoundrels. Every community has them. Just feel fortunate you have closed your eyes to reality...

[MIKE_MUSTANG]

1st off Old Card, I live in Orange, but have a son that attends BC, have been a Mustang supporter ever since they combined schools. Have coached Dishon and Coleman in baseball in BC.

Your post about Coleman being the fastest Cardinal is bogus, as i know Dishon is faster. I don't know where you get your info from. So you getting on here ranting and raving about anything to do with WO-S is bogus as well, because you don't even know the facts about your team of choice. So everything you say about any other team should not be trusted.
BC does have a good football team this year and hopefully they will do well as i hope the Mustangs will too and both teams can represent Orange County well in the playoffs. You just spit to much for venom.

Again assess your facts before spouting off, because all you do is embarass yourself.

[GS#17]

Bridge City for the most part played WOS in the 90's. It is where those wins were picked up. Bridge City was the 3rd smallest school in 4A and WOS coming out of the 5A's was one of the largest 4A's in the state.

WOS and BC have only played each other in district play, never in a predistrict game when the two were in different classifications and never in the playoffs. The classification system ensures teams of comparable size play each other in district and postseason play. So, yes, WOS beat BC every time they played when they were both 4A and they've beaten BC the one year WOS was 3A. In short, you're saying exactly what WOS fans have said -- BC carries a 0.000 winning percentage against WOS no matter how you slice it.

[BIGREDFAN2]

Mike_Mustang,

I asked my neighbor, who is a Coach at BC, who is the fastest kid on the team?

He replied: "Coleman"

I think you should have more respect for OC.

[exbccards76'smom]

Once again, I will state,I do not hate WOS. I appreciate that they have a good team. Coach Hooks is a good coach, also. This game is a few weeks away. Let's take it one week at a time.

[Paratrooper]

Originally posted by GS#17
Nice try. BC has it's share of sex offenders, drug users and dealers, vandals, and other scoundrels. Every community has them. Just feel fortunate you have closed your eyes to reality...

True but not like crack houses of Orange. Orange has a lot of problems. Port Arthur is running a close second. Actually when I was a kid Port Arthur used to be a really nice place to live, course, that was around 30 plus years ago. Port Arthur is nothing but cese pool of crack houses and gangs. There are very few parts of it left that you can actually walk the streets at night. However, for anyone that has lived for around 40 plus years you will remember how nice Port Arthur and also Orange were.

[Captain Obvious]

IIRC didn't a couple of BC students go over to Orange and shoot someone last year. I don't think either community has the right to talk about the others crime problem.

[WOS92]

Port Arthur is in far worse shape than Orange. It's easier to tell here in Orange than it is in North Carolina.

[wostexan]

If I remember correctly, wasn't it Bridge Citys star football player that shot and killed the kid in West Orange? I could be wrong.

[Pigskin 2004]

yes, you are 100% correct!

[LH Panther Mom]

All right folks, enough is enough. Since it seems you can't talk about the games without dragging up a bunch of mess, don't talk at all.