Ref's

[heck]

Don't know if this subject is kosher or not but I thought I would give it a try. I have noticed that the referring is just horrible this year. Could be me I suppose but most all I've visited with agree. The worst seems to be coming from the Permian Basin followed closely by the Abilene Chapters. I have heard they are having trouble getting warm bodies to fill the postitions. Guess that would account for it. Oh well thought I would see what its like from around the State.

[Gobbla2001]

I've seen some badly reffed games this year, then again, last week I almost saw a perfectly reffed game...

Minus two calls that I saw last Friday night at the Cuero/Yoakum game these refs did a GREATTTT job (one call should have been against Yoakum, and the other against Cuero)...

None of us are perfect, so though I yell like crazy at the refs, it's all outta getting the crowd into the game cuz I know right now that I'd mess up calls myself...

[BulldogGrl64]

I have been to some games in the last couple of weeks that there were some bad calls made, but then again there were also some calls that should have been made that weren't! I know that I myself may not be able to catch every single penalty that is made throughout the course of a game, but the refs are suppose to be trained in that area and have a good knowledge of the game of football to know what to look for and what to call or not call. If there was just one ref out on the field and they missed something it would be one thing, but when you have 3 running around and none of them catch make a penalty call.....something is wrong!

[Ranger Mom]

I agree with heck about the Permian Basin chapter!! Terrible!!!!

I had never heard a "ref cheer" before, but I have heard 2 this year.

Double zero
Short and stout-
find your head
and pull it out!!

AND.....

Nuts and bolts,
Nuts and bolts,
WE GOT SCREWED!!

I just about fell out of the stands laughing!!

Anybody have any more little "chants"???

[booger1]

Ranger Mom:
I agree with heck about the Permian Basin chapter!! Terrible!!!!

I had never heard a "ref cheer" before, but I have heard 2 this year.

Double zero
Short and stout-
find your head
and pull it out!!

AND.....

Nuts and bolts,
Nuts and bolts,
WE GOT SCREWED!!

I just about fell out of the stands laughing!!

Anybody have any more little "chants"???We use the nuts and bolts one at our basketball games!

[Ranger Mom]

I got kicked out of a basketball game in high school when a group of us yelled:

Crackers and Cheese
Crackers and Cheese
How bout a yell for the referee's
(Then we sang)
Three blind mice.

It was not appreciated and we were asked ever so bluntly to please leave!! :D :D

[TXMike]

When y'all cry and moan about missed calls, we generally turn a dreaf hear. Why? Because unless you tell what it was that was "missed" we have no way to explain or defend the call. Could it be that you saw something that YOU "thought" was a foul based on YOUR understanding of the rules but in reality it was not? Perfect example: Coaches fill out "report cards" the varsity officials they have each week. We are each given a grade of 1 to 5 (5 being worst). I don't want to go into the ludicrousness of that system right now but mention it just to illustrate this point. One coach gave me a 4 and commented that I had missed a block in the back. I knew exactly what he was talking about because he yelled at me during the game. And it was on a perfect block from the side that you often see on punt returns and for which many many many coaches and fans scream should be flagged. That is just not how the rule reads and most good experienced officials are not going to flag that type of block.

The point is, just because the fan or coach "thinks" something is illegal, does not mean it is, nor, as we have said before, does not mean it has to be flagged.

Are some fouls missed? You bet. I am not going to come here and say they are not. But, by the same token, as someone who has been involved with this for many years, I am also not about to let folks say the officiating is generally worse (at the varsity level anyway). There is much more and better training going on these days then there ever was in the past and we are getting more consistent across the state than we ever have been in the past.

And as for the shortage of officials...it is reaching critical mass in some parts of the state, especially at the subvarsity level. Chapters are having a harder time recruiting and retaining officials. Want to take a guess at the single greatest reason guys give for not sticking with it?

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: TXMike ]</small>

[Old Cardinal]

To TX Mike: I know we agree on some things, yet totally disagree on the "holding tolerance" that you advocate. I just wanted to tell you that their was a long good article on how Ref's can call, or igrore holding any way their little heart desires, at their disgression. It looks like there just might be a return to holding being holding-when it is done on the field, period. I really think that is the only way that games should be played. Observing the rules, and not cheating a little on every play, would award the teams that are trained to follow the rules of the game, and that leads to team discipline....Down this way, I see a "ref team" with each one interperating and calling differently- it sure is confusing.

[bearcat1]

Mike,
It doesn't really matter what is what, the reality is that if the ref's blow a call and it costs your team yardage, points, possession, downs, it is going to make the fans angry. And while you are right that we make mistakes, I'm sorry but yeah, I think I expect a ref to call a perfect game. I really do. Maybe that is wrong, but I have yet to find myself saying "oh well, he is only human, we all make mistakes" when we are assessed a critical penalty on a questionable call.

On another note: I am VERY DISTURBED at the little cheers and chants posted here. That is tasteless and I can't believe someone would do that to someone else. There is such a thing as sportsmanship and that is terrible to taunt someone that way, who is out there trying to make a living. Hell yeah Ive been mighty pissed at refs before, I'd even go so far as to say they have cost us a game before. But I wouldn't ever stoop to that kind of degrading behavior and I can't believe yall think its okay. What if that was your dad out there everyone was taunting? Very bothered by that.
bc

[TXMike]

Cardinal:
Where did you see that article? I am pretty well tied in with what is happening around the state and I have NEVER heard any suggestion at all about such a change.

Bearcat:

Maybe part of your problem is that you do not understand Why we are out there. It has nothing to do with "earning a living". If you think anyone can "earn a living" as a HS official then you must have a low standard of living. And maybe if you think they are out there "on the job" that explains why you think everything should be "perfect". Like many people in our society today, maybe you think nobody ever screws up in their job. I hesitate to even ask what you do "for a living" but whatever it is, surely you do not expect everyone to believe you never make a mistake at it?

[jason]

booger1:

Ranger Mom:
I agree with heck about the Permian Basin chapter!! Terrible!!!!

I had never heard a "ref cheer" before, but I have heard 2 this year.

Double zero
Short and stout-
find your head
and pull it out!!

AND.....

Nuts and bolts,
Nuts and bolts,
WE GOT SCREWED!!

I just about fell out of the stands laughing!!

Anybody have any more little "chants"???We use the nuts and bolts one at our basketball games!when i was a little dribblers coach, my friends were refs and they were HORRIBE...and i used to tell them during the game 'blow it, dont suck on it'...referring to their whistle....cause they never called anything

our fans used the 'nuts and bolts' one at our basketball games too...only needed it when we playin in crandall though :D

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: jason ]</small>

[3afan]

All sports are having trouble filling their officiating positions. Thats high school down to youth. As far as HS from what I hear basketball is in the worst shape. In my opinion thats the hardest to call so its no surprise.

I do HS softball and I love it. I'd encourage anyone who wants to stay involved in the sport, get some exercise, and make a few $s to contact their local TASO chapter or youth organization.

Once you give it a try I'm sure you'll have a new attitude about "referring", uh, I mean officiating.

[Gobbla2001]

Our fans usually say 'you gotta cheat... to beat... the gobbbblers...'

[bearcat1]

TXMike:
Cardinal:
Where did you see that article? I am pretty well tied in with what is happening around the state and I have NEVER heard any suggestion at all about such a change.

Bearcat:

Maybe part of your problem is that you do not understand Why we are out there. It has nothing to do with "earning a living". If you think anyone can "earn a living" as a HS official then you must have a low standard of living. And maybe if you think they are out there "on the job" that explains why you think everything should be "perfect". Like many people in our society today, maybe you think nobody ever screws up in their job. I hesitate to even ask what you do "for a living" but whatever it is, surely you do not expect everyone to believe you never make a mistake at it?What? First of all I think you need to brush up on your reading comprehension strategies, and then stop splitting hairs with me. I used the term "earning a living" loosely to make a point to those who are being so degrading toward your profession...But, since you asked, do you not consider yourself a professional? If not, that might explain why some of your counterparts are so lack-a-daisical in their approach toward their "professional duties". Come Friday night, I'm sorry but yes, to a fan you are not some guy out there purely for the 'love of the game'...you are "on the job". Even if you don't "earn a living" at it.

You said: "And maybe if you think they are out there "on the job" that explains why you think everything should be "perfect". "

Does that mean that if you felt you were "on the job" you would call a better game?

You asked what I do for a living. I'm a 5th grade math teacher. Sure, I make mistakes. And I am evaluated on my job, and if I make too many of them, I no longer have that job.

As far as a low standard of living, I'm a teacher. My standard of living couldn't get much lower.
bc

[BrainDamage]

I dunno where our district gets some of these refs but some of them stink... One game there was a clip right in front of the guy and the guy that got clipped fell inches from his feet and all he did was hop backwards and acted as if it never happened. Oh well we won anyway so oh well.

[heck]

It seems to me the overall quality of reffing is down this year over prior years. But specifically, defensive pass interference is being called when either there is no interference or there is offensive pass interference. Now just to let you know, I review the game films so I am not just getting one view of each particular play in question.

I believe my team has had three games that involve the Permian Basin Chapter. One game, interference was not called that effected the outcome of the game...i.e., a late touchdown throw where the receiver head was taken off before the pass got there. I know the film was sent to the Chapter for review, I just don't know what the outcome of that review was.

TX MIke, in no way am I trying to inflame those ref's on this board. I just felt like after our last game, that I had noticed poor officiating for the 6th time in 7 games. BTW, I am not real hard on officials either! But on the other hand, I expect officials to do their best and that means they need to go to clinics and seek other means to become better. I suspect that the good ref's are going small college or 5-A in our area and the newbies are just not "on top of their game" yet.

[TXMike]

I suspect that these "missed" pass interference calls are being "missed" by different guys, although they are from the same Chapter? If that is the case then your school definitely needs to get with that Chapter and foigure out what is going on. Maybe they have given the guys revised guidance/training on what is or is not pass interference so that is why they are all "missing" it.

Unless the Permian Basin Chapter has changed much since 5 years ago when I knew of them when I was in San Angelo, your assumption about "newbies" may not be correct. They had a pretty expereinced group of guys and since there were relatively few 5A games out that way, many of them worked "lower" levels.

I have sat in film review sessions both as a reviewer and a reviewee and I guranatee you there is no greater way for a coach to get his point across then to send in the tape to the Chapter. I have seen guys who might have been officiating for 10 or 15 years but who never saw themselves on tape. Once they did, their officiating improved significantly.

[CatWoman]

Ranger Mom:
I agree with heck about the Permian Basin chapter!! Terrible!!!!

I had never heard a "ref cheer" before, but I have heard 2 this year.

Double zero
Short and stout-
find your head
and pull it out!!

AND.....

Nuts and bolts,
Nuts and bolts,
WE GOT SCREWED!!
I just about fell out of the stands laughing!!

Anybody have any more little "chants"???Here's one we used to yell back in the day.

Potato chips, potato chips, crunch, crunch, crunch
Looks like the referee brought his lunch,
Eat it ref, eat it.

[Ranger Mom]

Bearcat1,

I am sorry that the post about "ref chants" disturbs you. You have to understand these are mainly done by students, and are "par for the course" as far as I am concerned. I guess maybe I am just demented or something, but I will admit when I heard them, I couldn't help but laugh..if that makes me "tasteless", then so be it.

On the other hand, you couldn't pay me enough to go out there and have everyone yelling at me. No matter what call they make they are gonna piss someone off!! Greenwood has run into several poorly called games this year, but....they were poorly called for our opponents also.

[CatWoman]

bearcat1:
Mike,
It doesn't really matter what is what, the reality is that if the ref's blow a call and it costs your team yardage, points, possession, downs, it is going to make the fans angry. And while you are right that we make mistakes, I'm sorry but yeah, I think I expect a ref to call a perfect game. I really do. Maybe that is wrong, but I have yet to find myself saying "oh well, he is only human, we all make mistakes" when we are assessed a critical penalty on a questionable call.

On another note: I am VERY DISTURBED at the little cheers and chants posted here. That is tasteless and I can't believe someone would do that to someone else. There is such a thing as sportsmanship and that is terrible to taunt someone that way, who is out there trying to make a living. Hell yeah Ive been mighty pissed at refs before, I'd even go so far as to say they have cost us a game before. But I wouldn't ever stoop to that kind of degrading behavior and I can't believe yall think its okay. What if that was your dad out there everyone was taunting? Very bothered by that.
bcDidn't mean to upset you Bearcat1. Just having a little fun. I was a 15 year old high school kid when I yelled that. I certainly do not do it now, even though I still get annoyed at them.

[heck]

TXMike:
I suspect that these "missed" pass interference calls are being "missed" by different guys, although they are from the same Chapter? If that is the case then your school definitely needs to get with that Chapter and foigure out what is going on. Maybe they have given the guys revised guidance/training on what is or is not pass interference so that is why they are all "missing" it.

Unless the Permian Basin Chapter has changed much since 5 years ago when I knew of them when I was in San Angelo, your assumption about "newbies" may not be correct. They had a pretty expereinced group of guys and since there were relatively few 5A games out that way, many of them worked "lower" levels.

I have sat in film review sessions both as a reviewer and a reviewee and I guranatee you there is no greater way for a coach to get his point across then to send in the tape to the Chapter. I have seen guys who might have been officiating for 10 or 15 years but who never saw themselves on tape. Once they did, their officiating improved significantly.No, the bad calls are spread around I'm sure. But since you are a ref, I would like to ask you some questions. I have noticed on some calls, that the ref closest to the call often misses a call but a ref from "way off" will often throw in the flag. Again, I have seen this on pass interference this year. It sure leads the coach and fan to say, " if the ref closest (with the best view) didn't call it why would the ref on the other side of the field call it. I really think there are interpretational problems among refs and among chapters. I have seen the calls in basktball vary widely based on which chapter is calling a basketball game. For example, San Angelo Basketball refs will let you get away with murder while Lubbock refs seem to call touch fouls.

Another question. What do chapters do to recruit new blood? I am sure I don't want to do it, but I have offered to put on clinics for refs and pay for them out of a fundraiser I do each year.

thanks.

[TXMike]

Heck:
It is not that unusual for an official from further away to flag something that the guy "right there" does not for several reasons. #1 - Everyone has different viewing angles. It is possible for 1 guy to see something from his angle that the other does not. This is particularly true for pass interference. The sideline official may not be able to see the defender's inside arm but the back judge can and he may see that arm wrapped around the receiver.
One of the things we teach officials is that farther is better than closer. That means that in order to get the best overall view of things you do not want to be too close to the action. It is an easy concept to prove. Stand close to a wall in the room and look straight ahead, focusing on something on that wall. How much are you seeing to the sides? Now back up 10 or more feet and how much are you seeing? You see what I mean?

# 2 - Everyone has different responsibilities on each play. Example: A team lines up in a pro set, with a tight end and flanker on the home team side of the formation and a split end on the visitor's side. The team runs a sweep to the tight end side. Who is going to most likely see the tight end holding?

Recruiting: Each Chapter does things differently. Some are still just relying on word of mouth from other officials but we found that not to be effective and several years ago started setting up a booth in area malls on weekends in the Spring/early Summer. That has worked well for us. Some places that have military bases try to reach out through the base papers and gyms to get officials.

[txrangers]

My take on officials take it or leave it.

the past ten years or so the quality of officiating in my humble opinion has declined.

Who wants to be an official and get paid next to nothing and have parents yelling at them about missed calls. They understand that coaches are going to get on their butts, but parents that is another story.

There are many fine officails out there that truly understand the game. However, only the Good 5A and 4A schools get these type of officials and the rest of us have to settle for some local yahoos that only want their teams to win. At least that is how it appears to me.

[3afan]

txrangers:
... the Good 5A and 4A schools get these type of officials and the rest of us have to settle for some local yahoos that only want their teams to win. At least that is how it appears to me.i could not disagree more. most TASO chapters try hard to recruit and train good officials. sure, some are just BAD, but its much more that than them being "local yahoos that only want their teams to win".

[TXMike]

TXranger: Don't know what part of this great State you hail from but I can definitely say that you assertion about 5A and 4A schools getting all the good officials and lower schools getting local yahoos is WAY OFF base when it comes to the San Antonio area, and I suspect untrue in many other parts of the state as well. Coaches here, 3A and above, pick the officials who are working their games. With very very few exceptions, 5A and 4A schools are picking Division 1 (we have 5 divisions based essentially on lenght of time you have officiated) guys. They pick them because they are Division 1. They may be way out of shape, may not have opened a rulebook in years, etc but they get picked. That leaves man many very good Division 2 and 3 officials who still have the "hunger" and who are working hard to be the best they can be. Many of them are on 3A and below fields each Friday.

There are times when the smaller Chapters get hit hard and have so many varsity games to cover that they end up sending only 4 man crews to 1A and maybe some2A games. When that happens there are definitely going to be a few rookies out and about. But it is not every week and hopefully they have some more experienced guys with them to help them along.

Furthermore, the small towns usually do not even have officiating Chapters so the refs working the games are not from there anyway!

<small>[ October 22, 2003, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: TXMike ]</small>

[Old Cardinal]

Mike,
The best article on the subject was in the Port Arthur News about two weeks ago...I have seen a few others....Mike, I really think the tradegy is-- that Coaches are begging for you guys to look the other way on obvious holding infractions. That kind of pressure on your Associations is deplorable, in my humble opinion. How associations have yielded to that kind of pressure has put the whole sports picture into limbo.

[TXMike]

http://www.panews.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2003/10/15/sports/export40.txt

Is this the story?

If so, I don't see where there is any suggestion of revising the rule or the way it is called. It is a good article though.

[spike]

We had a ref that flagged us for having two men in motion when we ran a fake reverse.

The reciever runs toward the qb and then the qb hikes the ball when the rec. gets to him but the qb hand the ball to a full back lined up in tight slot position on a fake reverse. The ref could not even explain himself. The same ref charged a timeout to me when the other team called it and had begun to gather his kids on the sidelin. He said he heard me yell time out, I said I told my kids to come here because they called a timeout. He would not make the change. IDIOT!

[crzyjournalist03]

I hear constant complaining about officiating from fans, but if you'll notice it, it's rare occassions that the players or coaches will talk bad about referees to the poing of thinking that refs can affect the outcome of the game. Regardless of how "bad" calls are, they don't result in turnover on downs or anything. Sure, they may set a team back some, but aren't teams coached to overcome adversity? Penalties are just another stumbling block that some teams need to get over. Good teams can win regardless of officiating.

And on another note, at most games that I go to, about twenty minutes before kickoff, the announcer will talk about the refs for the game and will say something to the effect of "they have been mutally chosen and agreed upon by both schools". The inclination of some fans to believe that home teams hire crooked refs to give their team an advantage is wrong, because the visiting team has a right to disagree with the home team's choice of referees.

[TXMike]

You display an amazing amount of insight, especially for a journalist!!! wink wink

The aspect of officials being mutually agreed upon is far too often overlooked in the criticisms against us. In fact, in some cases, there is tremendous effort and time consumed getting a simple crew of 5 guys assembled that is acceptable to both coaches (especially at the 5A and 4A level in San Antonio where officials are picked by individual position and not as a complete crew).

[3afan]

crzyjournalist03:
I hear constant complaining about officiating from fans, but if you'll notice it, it's rare occassions that the players or coaches will talk bad about referees to the poing of thinking that refs can affect the outcome of the game. Regardless of how "bad" calls are, they don't result in turnover on downs or anything. Sure, they may set a team back some, but aren't teams coached to overcome adversity? Penalties are just another stumbling block that some teams need to get over. Good teams can win regardless of officiating.

And on another note, at most games that I go to, about twenty minutes before kickoff, the announcer will talk about the refs for the game and will say something to the effect of "they have been mutally chosen and agreed upon by both schools". The inclination of some fans to believe that home teams hire crooked refs to give their team an advantage is wrong, because the visiting team has a right to disagree with the home team's choice of referees.crzy - u want to call some USSSA on the weekends ?????????

[heck]

TXmike,
Got another question for you. Why don't you flag a coach that is consistently raggin on you and coming out 10-15 yds onto the field to do so? If I were in your shoes, I would flag the coach that continues, year after year, to complain inexcess. Especially the ones that cuss and allow their players to do so?

[TXMike]

Heck:
I guess I have been lucky cause I have never had a HS coach cuss me, although they have been very vocal in their discontent. I have had 1 (maybe 2) players cuss me and both were flagged. I am not going to flag a coach for griping and complaining as long as he does not cuss me and as long as he retreats to the sideline when told to do so. I have been lucky in that regard I guess as they always do.

[crzyjournalist03]

3afan:

crzyjournalist03:
I hear constant complaining about officiating from fans, but if you'll notice it, it's rare occassions that the players or coaches will talk bad about referees to the poing of thinking that refs can affect the outcome of the game. Regardless of how "bad" calls are, they don't result in turnover on downs or anything. Sure, they may set a team back some, but aren't teams coached to overcome adversity? Penalties are just another stumbling block that some teams need to get over. Good teams can win regardless of officiating.

And on another note, at most games that I go to, about twenty minutes before kickoff, the announcer will talk about the refs for the game and will say something to the effect of "they have been mutally chosen and agreed upon by both schools". The inclination of some fans to believe that home teams hire crooked refs to give their team an advantage is wrong, because the visiting team has a right to disagree with the home team's choice of referees.crzy - u want to call some USSSA on the weekends ?????????sure...I should be in town most weekends. Is it starting in April again?

[lepfan]

Truthfully, would the game be as exciting if the fans did not get a little excited over at least one of the refs calls? Do we as humans always see eye to eye???? NO we don't!!!! So what makes us think we are going to agree with the guys in the tight white pants....all the time! "You can only satisfy some of the people some of the time...and will never satisfy all of the people all of the time" We are all under a microscope at some time...it does not feel good to be picked apart, but does that stop us from nit picking others...NO...we just have to learn to become a little more "thick skinned" and the ones critisizing have to know when to quit...To all the refs out there...thanks for the job you do...(but, i am not innocent in verbalizing :rolleyes: a few negative comments on occasion...)

I still say the refs/umps in little league programs are ragged on the MOST...all those mommas protecting their babies... :)

[TXMike]

lepfan: You are exactly right about the youth league problems. The worse abuse I have received over the years has been in youth league games. Youth leagues are difficult because you have the very explosive combination of: 1. Amateur coaches who know even less about the game and rules than their school counterparts 2. Often some of the greenest officials around 3. Parents who still have those little darlings and can do no wrong (they will realize once those kids hit puberty just how much wrong they CAN do)
4. Fields and stadiums with little or no security and fans way too close to the action

Little wonder that most ofthe really bad incidents you hear about come in youth league games.

Generally I have no real problem with people griping and complaining. When I train refs I tell them to remember, the complaints are directed at their uniform, not them personally so don't take it personal. I will admit I was almost physically sick and dang near quit back in mid-September of 2001. Some of what I was seeing on the varsity fields in terms of people coming together as a Nation really touched me. But at some subvarsity fields I worked on it seemed like 1 side thought the other was filled with little Osama's. It really irritated me at that point in time to have to put up with some of the junk these guys were doing and how they were treating each other and us.

<small>[ October 22, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: TXMike ]</small>

[jason]

crzyjournalist03:

3afan:

crzyjournalist03:
I hear constant complaining about officiating from fans, but if you'll notice it, it's rare occassions that the players or coaches will talk bad about referees to the poing of thinking that refs can affect the outcome of the game. Regardless of how "bad" calls are, they don't result in turnover on downs or anything. Sure, they may set a team back some, but aren't teams coached to overcome adversity? Penalties are just another stumbling block that some teams need to get over. Good teams can win regardless of officiating.

And on another note, at most games that I go to, about twenty minutes before kickoff, the announcer will talk about the refs for the game and will say something to the effect of "they have been mutally chosen and agreed upon by both schools". The inclination of some fans to believe that home teams hire crooked refs to give their team an advantage is wrong, because the visiting team has a right to disagree with the home team's choice of referees.crzy - u want to call some USSSA on the weekends ?????????sure...I should be in town most weekends. Is it starting in April again?you sure you wanna get involved in that...i did it for 4 years, its harder than it looks...

[Old Cardinal]

Mike: I, are no one else said anything( any article) about "changing the rules" just asking for enforcement of holding, there are already rules. I can give you examples of whole teams that hold, nearly across the board, on every play. They get a few flags, but it is well worth their holding for all the advantages they gain by consistant holding. The guys calling, in our area, are so inconsistant from game to game on this issue, a Coach or a kid, have no idea what will be flagged or not flagged on the next play. The calls seem to even vary according to the spread of the score....That was a good article in the PA News, I agree.

[crzyjournalist03]

jason:

crzyjournalist03:

3afan:

crzyjournalist03:
I hear constant complaining about officiating from fans, but if you'll notice it, it's rare occassions that the players or coaches will talk bad about referees to the poing of thinking that refs can affect the outcome of the game. Regardless of how "bad" calls are, they don't result in turnover on downs or anything. Sure, they may set a team back some, but aren't teams coached to overcome adversity? Penalties are just another stumbling block that some teams need to get over. Good teams can win regardless of officiating.

And on another note, at most games that I go to, about twenty minutes before kickoff, the announcer will talk about the refs for the game and will say something to the effect of "they have been mutally chosen and agreed upon by both schools". The inclination of some fans to believe that home teams hire crooked refs to give their team an advantage is wrong, because the visiting team has a right to disagree with the home team's choice of referees.crzy - u want to call some USSSA on the weekends ?????????sure...I should be in town most weekends. Is it starting in April again?you sure you wanna get involved in that...i did it for 4 years, its harder than it looks...Did it last year without any major problems

[5livecrew]

just a thought to whomever previewed the Navasota/Bellville game. There was a mention that the visitors always get "homered" at the pit. Was this individual aware of the fact that both Navasota and Bellville use the same officiating chapter for their home games? Kind of one of those think before speak things, I guess

[CatsDen]

This is one of the most interesting posts I have come across. I like to hear from a referee's point of view. I especially like to hear the thought process and explanations. I agree that youth sports are definitely more heated (in respect to referees).

[Ranger Mom]

heck:
TXmike,
Got another question for you. Why don't you flag a coach that is consistently raggin on you and coming out 10-15 yds onto the field to do so? If I were in your shoes, I would flag the coach that continues, year after year, to complain inexcess. Especially the ones that cuss and allow their players to do so?Hmmmm.....I wonder who in the "heck" you could possibly be talking about?!?!?!?!?!

[dwhite_eaglesfan]

I don't know about the Abilene chapter. But,the Waco chapter (from what I've seen the last several years)is awful.As for as pass interference calls,they do need understand what "catchable ball" mean.

[whtfbplaya]

Just got back from a 4a freshman football game that Myself and one other guy called. The game ended 12 to 14 and everone was happy and the kids played hard the coaches coached and everone had a good time, I dont know why we cant just let the kids play. We make mistakes like everyone else, but the way to solve the problem is usually not yelling and hollering at us. TxMike dont you just love it when a coach comes up yelling at you and he does not know the rule! Many fans do the same.

For ex: last week a coach was yelling at me bc his reciever's foot came down on the sideline (on the line) and I called it an incomplete pass. lol

This is my first year as a ref and many of the high-school games I do are with only one other person. I dont know many sets of two people who can watch everything 22 people do.

Feel free to try to stump me with a question?
Even you BU 97

[whtfbplaya]

I only had a problem with the refs when I played when they would swear they were right and I knew they were wrong. I did not mind the judgement calls bc some people just have bad judgement. lol

I think all refs should be rounded up and sent on a week vacation when the season is over with for putting up with fans, coaches, and players all year.

[BigW]

TXMIKE, I have great respect for you and every other ref. It is a tough, thankless job and no matter what you do 50% of the stadium will not agree with you.
I saw one Friday night that I would be willing to bet you have never witnessed.
4th and 1 yd and going for it. After the play the ball is spotted and the chain gang is called in for the measurement. They stretch the chains and set them, the defense goes wild and starts running off the field... about 2 inches short...but wait....the ref spotting the ball holds up his left hand then "rolls" the football toward the chains!!
The "roll" now resulted in a 1st down by about and inch!
We were winning by a large margin so there was not much said but I had never witnessed such an act by a ref.

[heck]

When I started this topic I was sincere. I do believe the officiating is not as good as I have seen in the past. I want to thank TXMike. He has provided another perspective and thats good, at least for me.

Rangermom, you guessed it! I was referring to an unnamed coach in the west Texas area. But he is by no means alone (smile). Good luck unless we meet in the playoffs.

[PPHSfan]

Guys, Guys, Guys, and Gals,

Yall should know better by now. Whild TxMike does have a very good understanding of the game, he will never back down in any way when defending the refs. He will always take the side of the refs in any situation NO MATTER WHAT. He swears that refs are beyond reproach.

All anyone of you are doing by trying to have a fun little "debate" with someone as closed minded as Mike is wasting your time.

I remember last year when he refused to even agree tp disagree with me and sinton66 over at the pig. :D

Referees, unlike every other creature on the planet, are 100 percent honest, 100 percent of the time. If you don't believe me....Just ask Mike. :D

[CatWoman]

Ok, I have a good understanding of the rules, but since we are talking about refs' wrong calls, please help me out on these 2:

1. opposing team's kickoff goes out of bounds at the 25 and they get a flag. We refuse penalty and should get the ball at the 30 -- they gave it to us at the spot it rolled out of bounds with coaches and fans screaming the "30". Ref even told the coach that it was spotted at the place it went out!! Is this right?

2. opposing punter fumbles snap, picks it up and starts to run. When we get him "wrapped up" he "throws" the ball in the air and it rolls about 10 yards. They rule an incomplete pass and give us the ball where it rolled to rather than where we tackled the punter. What's the correct call.

Thanks.

[CatWoman]

ttt

[TXMike]

I have never said that we are "beyond reproach." In fact, I have freely pointed out where mistakes in enforcements have taken place in the past. I have said, and continue to say, that I have never known an official who deliberately attempted to influence who would win a particular game. And until someone can prove one has done so, I continue to believe nobody has. I have also urged coaches to send in tapes of refs screwing up so that their mistakes can be addressed. I know there are mistakes made. I made one myself a few weeks ago and told the coach of the "offended" team that I had done so. Just because some fans are so rabid that they think they would cheat if given the chance to do so does not mean we are the same.

Big W: I have never seen an act like you described. The purpose of the back judge running up and holding the ball on the ground during a measurement is to ensure that the ball DOES NOT move. The only thing I can think of was that for some reason instead of having it pointed at the goal lines he was holding it down with it pointed at sidelines. Maybe he turned it 90 degrees to get it pointed at the goal line and the nose then broke the line to gain? Should not have been done that way if it was. Should have been spotted with nose pointed at the goal line before he put his hand down on it.

[CatWoman]

TXMike - can you answer the questions I posed above?

[TXMike]

CatWoman:
Ok, I have a good understanding of the rules, but since we are talking about refs' wrong calls, please help me out on these 2:

1. opposing team's kickoff goes out of bounds at the 25 and they get a flag. We refuse penalty and should get the ball at the 30 -- they gave it to us at the spot it rolled out of bounds with coaches and fans screaming the "30". Ref even told the coach that it was spotted at the place it went out!! Is this right?

2. opposing punter fumbles snap, picks it up and starts to run. When we get him "wrapped up" he "throws" the ball in the air and it rolls about 10 yards. They rule an incomplete pass and give us the ball where it rolled to rather than where we tackled the punter. What's the correct call.

Thanks.On kickoffs out of bounds, UNTOUCHED AT ALL BY THE RECEIVING TEAM, the receivers can take the ball at the out of bounds spot, penalize the kickers 5 yards and have a rekick, or take the ball 30 yards from where it was kicked off from. Are you sure nobody on the receiving team touched the ball?

On the punt/pass play, if he threw it before he was down (which is more than just being "wrapped up"), it is an incomplete pass. Ball goes back to the previous spot (where it was snapped from on that down). Where an incomplete pass rolls to has no bearing on anything.

[CatWoman]

TXMike:

CatWoman:
Ok, I have a good understanding of the rules, but since we are talking about refs' wrong calls, please help me out on these 2:

1. opposing team's kickoff goes out of bounds at the 25 and they get a flag. We refuse penalty and should get the ball at the 30 -- they gave it to us at the spot it rolled out of bounds with coaches and fans screaming the "30". Ref even told the coach that it was spotted at the place it went out!! Is this right?

2. opposing punter fumbles snap, picks it up and starts to run. When we get him "wrapped up" he "throws" the ball in the air and it rolls about 10 yards. They rule an incomplete pass and give us the ball where it rolled to rather than where we tackled the punter. What's the correct call.

Thanks.On kickoffs out of bounds, UNTOUCHED AT ALL BY THE RECEIVING TEAM, the receivers can take the ball at the out of bounds spot, penalize the kickers 5 yards and have a rekick, or take the ball 30 yards from where it was kicked off from. Are you sure nobody on the receiving team touched the ball?

On the punt/pass play, if he threw it before he was down (which is more than just being "wrapped up"), it is an incomplete pass. Ball goes back to the previous spot (where it was snapped from on that down). Where an incomplete pass rolls to has no bearing on anything.Ok, I see what you are saying about the punt pass play - it went back to the line of scrimmage, rather than where the pass rolled to. I guess it just was about the same place as where the ball stopped.

On the kickoff though, it was not touched by any player. If it had been touched, would the flag still have been thrown?

[CatWoman]

ttt

[PPHSfan]

Catwoman,

If nobobdy touched the ball, and you refused the penalty, the ball was spotted in the correct place.

[PPHSfan]

If the ball was touched before going out of bounds, there would be no flag.

[CatWoman]

PPHSfan:
If the ball was touched before going out of bounds, there would be no flag.Thanks for the info, but if we took the penalty, they would have to re-kick, isn't that right?

[PPHSfan]

CatWoman:

PPHSfan:
If the ball was touched before going out of bounds, there would be no flag.Thanks for the info, but if we took the penalty, they would have to re-kick, isn't that right?.
Yes, or you cold have taken the ball on the 30 with the 30 yrd rule. But your coach made a bad decision by declining and taking the ball on the 25.

[CatWoman]

I think I've got it straight now, well really I don't. TXMike and PPfan told me 2 different things.

[CatWoman]

ttt

[PPHSfan]

No we didn't. We just said it different.

Let me try to be clear.

If the ball is untouched by the receiving team then you have three choices.

1. Accept the penalty and take the ball thirty yards from the spot of the kick (which would be on the receiving teams 30 yrd. line)

2. Accept the penalty and move the ball back 5 yards and kick again.

3. Decline the penalty and take the ball where it rolled out of bounds.

Your coach chose option 3 which cost you 5 yards. The refs placed the ball where it was supposed to be. The coach blew it, not the refs. It is not the refs responsibility to inform the coaches when they blow a decision. (the coach however, can ask the refs which decision gives them the better spot, but I don't think this was the case.)

[CatWoman]

PPHSfan:
No we didn't. We just said it different.

Let me try to be clear.

If the ball is untouched by the receiving team then you have three choices.

1. Accept the penalty and take the ball thirty yards from the spot of the kick (which would be on the receiving teams 30 yrd. line)

2. Accept the penalty and move the ball back 5 yards and kick again.

3. Decline the penalty and take the ball where it rolled out of bounds.

Your coach chose option 3 which cost you 5 yards. The refs placed the ball where it was supposed to be. The coach blew it, not the refs. It is not the refs responsibility to inform the coaches when they blow a decision. (the coach however, can ask the refs which decision gives them the better spot, but I don't think this was the case.)Oh no, surely you aren't saying our coach made a mistake!!lol

Seriously, thank you for explaining. I guess it's another case of fans thinking they knew exactly what they were talking about.

[TXMike]

I do not know any ref who would have even given the team the option to take the ball at the 25 in the scenario as posted. We would have told him he could have the 5 yard penalty and rekick or take ball 30 yards from where it was kicked. Furthermore, this is 1 time when most of us do get the call directly from a coach and not from a captain on the field. The official closest to the offended team's coach will ask him what he wants and that is what we go with.

[CatWoman]

TXMike:
I do not know any ref who would have even given the team the option to take the ball at the 25 in the scenario as posted. We would have told him he could have the 5 yard penalty and rekick or take ball 30 yards from where it was kicked. Furthermore, this is 1 time when most of us do get the call directly from a coach and not from a captain on the field. The official closest to the offended team's coach will ask him what he wants and that is what we go with.It didn't make a difference in the game, but we should have gotten the ball on the 30. We won, so I'll give this topic a rest, and thank you for explaining.