I just heard....

[LH Panther Mom]

The federal judge turned down an order to reinsert the feeding tube into Terry Schiavo. The Schindler family attorney will now appeal to the 11th circuit court of appeals in Atlanta, a very conservative court. :(

[AP Panther Fan]

And this poor woman has gone 4 days without nourishment...:(

truly sad...

[pirate44]

ist hard to believe someone can make a decision concerning her life who abandoned her years ago. sad situation for all parties involved :(

[Ranger Mom]

I told my husband and now I am telling yall (this is my living will)....if ever I am in that situation, PLEASE pull the plug!

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I told my husband and now I am telling yall (this is my living will)....if ever I am in that situation, PLEASE pull the plug! Me too!

Sadly, your wishes sometimes will not be carried out. My dad had the living will the hosiptals provide, but when it came right down to it we couldn't do it and asked that they help him and they did. (Life support) A week later we pulled the plug. This may be morbid, but it gave us time to accept the inevitable and give the rest of our family time to say good-bye in their own way. :(

If this is truly what you want have a lawyer draw up a Directive to Physicians that will be enforced. Hopefully, none of you will ever have to go through this type of ordeal.

[44INAROW]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I told my husband and now I am telling yall (this is my living will)....if ever I am in that situation, PLEASE pull the plug!

Amen - also make sure you notify your primary care physician in writing and it is signed and witnessed........... :p

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I told my husband and now I am telling yall (this is my living will)....if ever I am in that situation, PLEASE pull the plug!

i think that this is a sad case for.... HER HUSBAND. I honestly believe that he can't stand to see his wife like this, and wants to send her to be peaceful. Her family is trying to hold onto the shell of what used to be their vibrant daughter, sister, cousin, etc. I would fight to pull the plug too, and i would want the plug pulled as well...

[JasperDog94]

This just shows how out of control the courts have become. One of these days congress is going to have to reign in the judiciary and let them know that their job is to interpret the law, not to make the law.:mad: :mad:

...I feel better now.:)

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by pirate4state
\ My dad had the living will the hosiptals provide, but when it came right down to it we couldn't do it and asked that they help him and they did. (Life support) A week later we pulled the plug. This may be morbid, but it gave us time to accept the inevitable and give the rest of our family time to say good-bye in their own way. :(

\

That is perfectly understandable! I understand the needing to say good-bye. Maybe I don't know enough about this case, but I can't help but feel sorry for the Husband.

He is taking a bunch of flak for going on with his life. He stood by her side for 6 years taking her from specialist to specialist and nothing helped. I watched nightline last night and they talked to a guy who said in the 6 years where the husband was with her constantly....she never had a bed sore, was never left dirty, hair was washed and fixed, makeup applied...he was vigilant when it came to her care and just about drove the staff crazy.

Only when he came to finally accept what the drs had been telling him the entire time, she will NEVER recover, only then did he start letting go. That doesn't sound like a man who doesn't care to me!

[pirate44]

"pulling the plug" (ie. resperator, life support) is one thing. stopping food and starving her to death is a totally different thing. starvation is not humane.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by pirate44
"pulling the plug" (ie. resperator, life support) is one thing. stopping food and starving her to death is a totally different thing. starvation is not humane.

Not many choices 44'---What would you suggest as an alternative?

[pirate44]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Not many choices 44'---What would you suggest as an alternative?
the same thing id do if my child or loved one was severly handicapped and unable to feed themselves. i would bear my cross and feed them and pray for them.

[pirate44]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Not many choices 44'---What would you suggest as an alternative?
is starvation a humane way to die, in your opinion?

[AP Panther Fan]

Originally posted by pirate44
"pulling the plug" (ie. resperator, life support) is one thing. stopping food and starving her to death is a totally different thing. starvation is not humane.

I have a problem with the starvation thing as well ... don't know what the answer is though. Starvation makes Dr. Kovorkian's methods look pretty good.:(

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by pirate44
"pulling the plug" (ie. resperator, life support) is one thing. stopping food and starving her to death is a totally different thing. starvation is not humane.

...and that's where I am torn!

From all I have been hearing, if your cerebral cortex is liquified, you have NO feeling.....that doesn't make starvation any more humane, but at least you don't suffer!

That's just the way I am....I didn't have a big problem with Dr. Kavorkian either.

It cost $20 to euthanize my cat, if something happens to me and I am in a vegative state for the rest of my life. Don't take me to the hospital, just take me to the vet!!

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by pirate44
"pulling the plug" (ie. resperator, life support) is one thing. stopping food and starving her to death is a totally different thing. starvation is not humane. :clap: :clap: :clap: Here Here!!!

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by pirate44
the same thing id do if my child or loved one was severly handicapped and unable to feed themselves. i would bear my cross and feed them and pray for them.

I think we agree there, 44'. This woman's parents brought her into this world and I think they should be allowed to care for her the rest of her life, if they so choose. The husband should divorce her and allow this to happen, IMO. The only sticking point is that the husband maintains that it was this woman's wish not be kept in a sustained vegetative state. That has been the whole problem in this case---proving the validity of this assumption since it was not in writing.

[pirate44]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
...and that's where I am torn!

From all I have been hearing, if your cerebral cortex is liquified, you have NO feeling.....that doesn't make starvation any more humane, but at least you don't suffer!

That's just the way I am....I didn't have a big problem with Dr. Kavorkian either.

It cost $20 to euthanize my cat, if something happens to me and I am in a vegative state for the rest of my life. Don't take me to the hospital, just take me to the vet!!
i dont know if she feels pain or not, but IMHO not feeling pain does not constitute grounds for starvation and killing. i guess i better stay out of this thread before it gets nasty.for everyone else, opinionate away;)

[pirate4state]

Here's my problem with this case. She had an eating disorder!! She chose not to eat, taking diet pills, starving herself, etc... and NOW people want to keep her alive by feeding her!

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by pirate4state
Here's my problem with this case. She had an eating disorder!! She chose not to eat, taking diet pills, starving herself, etc... and NOW people want to keep her alive by feeding her!

BOMBSHELL!!

[Ranger Mom]

I don't mean to come across as callous and uncaring. I feel for the parents in this situation and can't honestly say what I would do or how I would feel if one my own children was in this situation.

I know none of my kids, my husband, myself, or any other of my family members would want to live like this. I don't know how I would react in this situation and hope I never have to learn.

For myself, I would just want to die and get to heaven that much sooner.

I guess there is that "what if" factor that makes it all a little scary. What if there's a breakthrough in the next few years. What if she really DOES have feeling? What if she has been able to understand the entire time?

It's a sad situation no matter how you look at it.

[GUNHO]

What gets me is that it's not clear to just what her condition is.Experts differ drasticaly on her condition.I know in our courts if there is any doubt you are not to be found guilty or put to death.There seems to be plenty of doubt in this case. JMO.

[fball_gal310]

You want to be taken to a vet...how funny!

This is a really crazy case but here is my opinion. The only reason her family wants her alive is for their benefit. She can't feel, she can't talk, she can't think, she can't love because she doesn't know how to anymore. Her brain is shot and the parentals need to realize that their daughter is not going to come back. The family needs to remember the good times and let this poor woman go to her HOME. The longer they drag this out, the harder it is going to be on them. I saw my grandmother battle and I saw how much she hurt and I wish her parents would see this about her.

[spiveyrat]

I think there is a conflict of interest as far as the husband is concerned. They won that multi-million dollar lawsuit that was supposed to pay for her care/treatment. A couple of years afterwards, the husband quit with the therapies. Seven years after the "accident", he remembers that she didn't want to live this way??? Of course, by this time he is shacking up with another woman and having kids with her. Supposedly he gets any money that isn't used from the lawsuit on Terri. For years now he has ordered that she can not be photographed or taken outside of her room.

I've heard there's a nurse that witnessed him asking when "the b!tch" was going to die. She'll be on Hannity and Colmes tonight.

I think it's HIS wish that she's dead, not hers. I think the president is right here, you HaVE to err on the side of life.

[spiveyrat]

Originally posted by fball_gal310
You want to be taken to a vet...how funny!

She can't feel, she can't talk, she can't think, she can't love because she doesn't know how to anymore. Her brain is shot and the parentals need to realize that their daughter is not going to come back.

You don't know that to be true. There's "experts" on both sides with totally differing points of view.

[Manck]

I find it extremely odd that the politicians who are arguing the "right to life" side of this seem to have no concern for quality of life in almost any regard.

Read all you want into that. Just remember that I go to a "tree-hugging hippie" school, and you're not going to change my mind. So let's not argue. I just had to throw in my 2 cents.

[HighSchool Fan]

Originally posted by Manck
Just remember that I go to a "tree-hugging hippie" school,

that could be any college in America. most college's only teach one side of the fence.

[spiveyrat]

Originally posted by Manck
I find it extremely odd that the politicians who are arguing the "right to life" side of this seem to have no concern for quality of life in almost any regard.

Read all you want into that. Just remember that I go to a "tree-hugging hippie" school, and you're not going to change my mind. So let's not argue. I just had to throw in my 2 cents.

From the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

It didn't say "...Quality of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"

[Manck]

I thought pursuit of happiness would mean quality of life as well.... That list is not a hierarchy. It's a list.

That's like saying the egg on the end of the list for making brownies is not as important as the milk ahead of it. Ask my friend Lauren. The egg's important.


All that being said, that's a weird position for a family to be put in. I was commenting on the politicians, not any of the positions that the family/ies are taking. I find it hard to believe that this is the only case of its type in the USA today. I just feel that many parties in the situation are shooting for a little publicity.

[Gobbla2001]

My points:

Would I want to live like she is living?

UHHHHHH, HELL NO!

Why?

Because looking at a story like her's makes me appreciate my life even more, why would I want to live like that when I can live like this?

HOWEVER, how does she feel now? Now that she has been like that for so long? Is she comfortable with it? Does she look foward to waking up and day-dreaming while looking into the garden at the hospice (she CAN see, you know)?

Does she enjoy seeing her parents all of the time? Her other family? Does she have these big thoughts in her head? She may be enjoying herself, you never know...

Another thing, she is PHYSICALLY able to be spoon-fed, meaning she can swallow on her own, but her husband order the spoon-feeding to be stopped years ago, and she has become dependent on the feeding tube...

She was undergoing therapy some years ago, and for all we know could be JUST like you and I today, had her husband not ordered the therapy to stop (only after getting the money to help pay for that therapy)...

ATLEAST GIVE HER LETHAL INJECTION, I do not condone it whatsoever, it would open up a whole new can of worms, HOWEVER, she is hungry right now, and thirsty, and she will be until she is gone... IS hunger pain? How would I know, but I do know that just having a fever blister is pain, or a blister on my tongue is pain, just imagine if they were to all dry out, crack and bleed (blood, being the last thing she'll ever taste)...

AFter the severe dehydration has finally settled in, one by one her organs will shut down, she'll throw-up, over and over (maybe not pain to some, but really not comfy, we all know that)...

But this is not only about Terry, this is about stopping corrupt judges...

As many of you may have heard, or maybe not, who knows, the only reason the pug was pulled is because a JUDGE judged the husband's HEARSAY (when he said she would not want to live like this) AS FACT, which is NOT LEGAL AT ALL...

Believe it or not, guys, the Government is not stepping in here... THE PEOPLE, us, as much as stereotypes would beg to differ, are the ones making the Government do this... They ran for office on issues such as pro-life etc..., and that's why most of the people who voted for them voted for them, and they are doing what they promised us when they requested our votes, standing up for the beliefs of those they represent...

"But if those are not my views, how do they represent me?"

They're representing life, guys, and most of us here are on the side of LIFE...

We cannot bring this life back a year down the road when we have found a 100% solution for a 100% recovery or what have you...

There are over 20 doctors out there who say she can be rehabilitated, and until it is proven that she ABSOLUTELY CANNOT BE REHABILITATED, her life shall continue, because as I've stated before, you can end a life, but cannot bring one back...

Guys, this isn't like a pulse-maker, or a breathing machine... You 'pull the plug' on those and your family member is gone in less than 30 seconds...

You pull a feeding tube? They starve and dehydrate for two weeks...

I'd be tossed in jail for starving a dog or cat, yet we can do it to human beings now?

I am disapointed in the way that things are turning out these days...

Choose life in this one, guys...

(and this is not a 'this party' 'that party' topic, support was received from both sides, just so we do not take that route)

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by spiveyrat
You don't know that to be true. There's "experts" on both sides with totally differing points of view.

HEr brain is shot?

That would mean brain dead, correct?

SHE IS NOT BRAIN DEAD...

She can LAUGH...

She can SMILE...

She 'tries' to talk...

I guess if you can't talk these days and have to use sign language, we should kill you?

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
HEr brain is shot?

That would mean brain dead, correct?

SHE IS NOT BRAIN DEAD...

She can LAUGH...

She can SMILE...

She 'tries' to talk...

I guess if you can't talk these days and have to use sign language, we should kill you?

What would you do if your wife asked to not ever have to live like this? Would you not do everything in your power to have her wished fulfilled? Her wishes weren't only expressed to her husband. Her friends testified that those were her wishes as well. I am not sure if she is technically brain dead, but her brain has deteriorated to "mush", and that will never grow back. I dont see what it would hurt to keep her alive, but if this is what she asked for then I think her wishes should be honored. I cant say whether the husband is making a bad decision or not. He was the man she chose to spend her life with and when they were married he was given the legal right to decide for her in this scenario. Either way it ends it wont be a good one. I will say this in defense of the husband though. He held on for 7 years. The nursing staff said he was always there taking care of her. I think he finally came to the realization that after 7 years he had to start letting go. Then again I could be wrong. I was not there, nor do I know what he was feeling or what was said by either party. I am not upset congress passed the bill they did. Constitutional or not it gave the parents an opportunity to keep their daughter for a little bit longer. I can never imagine what it must be like to be put in position to make a decision like that, nor do I ever want to experience it. It must be one of the hardest decisions to ever make, and I am sorry for the families that must go through that. I just know that legally speaking the judge didnt rule on the husband's hearsay. The husband has a legal right to be her executor. While I am on my soapbox I will finish with starvation and dehydration part.....Personally I think it is cruel, but why be upset about it all of the sudden. It is nothing new. This sort of thing happens everyday. Also she will not start vomiting. She will pass out into a comatose state and pass away in her sleep. I think it is a terrible way to go, but it has been going on for years, and probably happened a few times today. I guess through all of this the only thing I firmly believe is I cant speak for what is right for the husband and their family. The only reason that this is news is because the family and the husband disagree. Otherwise they would have pulled the tubes 7 years ago, or she would still be alive today. These are just my 2 cents.

[spiveyrat]

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
HEr brain is shot?

That would mean brain dead, correct?

SHE IS NOT BRAIN DEAD...

She can LAUGH...

She can SMILE...

She 'tries' to talk...

I guess if you can't talk these days and have to use sign language, we should kill you?

I think you misunderstood my post... or quoted the wrong one. I'm on the side of LIFE, not death.

[spiveyrat]

Originally posted by Manck
I thought pursuit of happiness would mean quality of life as well.... That list is not a hierarchy. It's a list.

That's like saying the egg on the end of the list for making brownies is not as important as the milk ahead of it. Ask my friend Lauren. The egg's important.


All that being said, that's a weird position for a family to be put in. I was commenting on the politicians, not any of the positions that the family/ies are taking. I find it hard to believe that this is the only case of its type in the USA today. I just feel that many parties in the situation are shooting for a little publicity.

To a degree, it is a hierarchy. There must first be life before there is liberty and happiness. That said, I see your point. Sad to say, there will always be someone willing to profit at the expense of people's misfortune. Look at the press... "If it bleeds, it leads".

[LH Panther Mom]

I didn't think about what a controversial subject this could be. Since I saw it on the news this morning, I've thought it about off and on throughout the day.

The situation with Terry has gone on for years. The footage I saw of her this morning looked to be the same footage I saw close to two years ago. Yes, there was a large settlement from the malpractice suit that was set in trust to pay for her care. That money is close to being gone. I don't think money should play a factor in any decision, but then that's just me.

This story reminds me of my family in a way. My grandmother has had Alzheimer's for years. When I still lived in Lubbock, I saw her several times a month...more than anyone in the family, since they all lived out of town. I first noticed there was something wrong around 17-18 years ago, when my oldest was about 2 or 3. My mother and her siblings, seeing her less regularly, were in denial that there was anything wrong.

A couple of years later, we (my mother & her sisters) were in Arkansas visiting my grandfather. I gathered them together and told them they needed to do something & explained the problems I had seen. It was one of the hardest conversations I've ever had with any of them. They did start to take notice & visited more often trying to make her house more safe for her condition. I continued to visit & took the boys to see her frequently, as that seemed to give her more "life" than anything. When we moved here 9 1/2 years ago, within 2 months of us leaving, she had digressed drastically....in 2 more months, my mother and aunts made the decision to take her to a nurse's home to be cared for. The situation was horrible & they took her back to her home after a couple of months and took turns staying with her full time.

While she was still somewhat cohesive, she did sign a living will. She has not known who anyone is in over 9 years. She has lost all memory, including the English language. She can still feed herself, what doesn't end up ground into her hair. She has zero quality of life and her brain is basically mush. And she is one of the "healthiest" 90+ year-old people I know. My mother has told me that if my granny ever gets sick, that her starving to death might be more humane than the "life" she has now.

I don't have a clue what I would do if I were the husband. I do hope that I would have the courage to honor the wishes of my loved one, if faced with that situation.

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by spiveyrat
I think you misunderstood my post... or quoted the wrong one. I'm on the side of LIFE, not death.

Wasn't yours, it was fb gurl or whatever...

Rockdale80:

Was that for sure HER WISH?... or did she say 'Man, I would never want to live like that if I were in that position'?????

Like I said, that is what you feel at the momment, it was never said that it was her 'wish' in court, it was said that she 'stated' she would not want to live like that (as I have stated I wouldn't either, but only while I live as I do now)...

I do appreciate your thoughts, and have read them and understand what you are saying... So kudos

Hearsay, whether it be from one or MANY people, is not to be accepted as fact in a court of law... But this judge did that, which is why the federal court is able to step in...

Say that I kill my wife, snipe her down from somewhere and leave no trace of evidence... Yet I was convicted of the murder... Under THIS judge, all I would have to say is that 'Oh, some dude who is already dead did it, she had mentioned to me that he wanted to kill her' and BOOM, he would take that as fact without any other evidence into the murder... This is what this case is like to me...

The husband, and friends, say it was 'her wish' to not be kept alive in a situation like that... Is it funny that they say it like she 'knew' it was gunna happen? And from what I know by listening to this case, she never said it was her wish, she simply said 'I would not want to go through that', though it seems the same, it is different to me...

I've heard women in my family say after watching a birth on the learning channel or something "Man, I never want to do that, I hope I never have to", YET, they do, and they enjoyed the benefits...

I am not saying that she does NOT feel that way or DID not feel that way, all I am saying is that until it is a FACT, proven FACT, then she should stay alive, because you cannot 'un-pull' the plug on a life, when the life is gone, it is gone... no turning back...

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
I didn't think about what a controversial subject this could be. Since I saw it on the news this morning, I've thought it about off and on throughout the day.

The situation with Terry has gone on for years. The footage I saw of her this morning looked to be the same footage I saw close to two years ago. Yes, there was a large settlement from the malpractice suit that was set in trust to pay for her care. That money is close to being gone. I don't think money should play a factor in any decision, but then that's just me.

This story reminds me of my family in a way. My grandmother has had Alzheimer's for years. When I still lived in Lubbock, I saw her several times a month...more than anyone in the family, since they all lived out of town. I first noticed there was something wrong around 17-18 years ago, when my oldest was about 2 or 3. My mother and her siblings, seeing her less regularly, were in denial that there was anything wrong.

A couple of years later, we (my mother & her sisters) were in Arkansas visiting my grandfather. I gathered them together and told them they needed to do something & explained the problems I had seen. It was one of the hardest conversations I've ever had with any of them. They did start to take notice & visited more often trying to make her house more safe for her condition. I continued to visit & took the boys to see her frequently, as that seemed to give her more "life" than anything. When we moved here 9 1/2 years ago, within 2 months of us leaving, she had digressed drastically....in 2 more months, my mother and aunts made the decision to take her to a nurse's home to be cared for. The situation was horrible & they took her back to her home after a couple of months and took turns staying with her full time.

While she was still somewhat cohesive, she did sign a living will. She has not known who anyone is in over 9 years. She has lost all memory, including the English language. She can still feed herself, what doesn't end up ground into her hair. She has zero quality of life and her brain is basically mush. And she is one of the "healthiest" 90+ year-old people I know. My mother has told me that if my granny ever gets sick, that her starving to death might be more humane than the "life" she has now.

I don't have a clue what I would do if I were the husband. I do hope that I would have the courage to honor the wishes of my loved one, if faced with that situation.

I am sorry to hear such a sad story... Must have been tough...

Terry's case is a tad different though, as most doctor's believe she is reponsive and does know what is going on, some believe she has no chance of recovery, others, including a woman who has FULLY recovered from conditions WORSE than that of Terry's, disagree...

She was able to spoon-feed, meaning she was able to recognize food, recognize taste and responded by swallowing (AKA: her brain must have been working, maybe it still is?), but her husband cut all of that off, so who knows now? I think it would be a good idea for the court to grant a stay so that the parents can get the right to spoon feed etc... to atleast see if she is able to be rehabilitated for sure...

I just do not understand why the husband will not allow her parents to have the right to take over Terry, to give her a last chance that he has denied her to have over the past however many years...

It just seems really funny to me...

#1 he gets the money to give her therapy

#2 after getting that money in a hard fought battle, he says 'oh, wait, she said she didn't want to live like this'

#3 Terry also 'said' (just like she said she wouldn't want to live like this) that she would like to be buried beside her parents when she dies

#4 Terry's husband will have her cremated immediately following her passing

Sounds a little crooked to me...

If he lets her parents and family have custody to try and save her, what in the hell does he have to lose???

Also, the stroke or heart attack or whatever it was that caused this condition is only a 'guess', they still do not know what 'exactly' caused this condition and her husband has barred all doctor's from examining her physical self.....

Doesn't sound too great...

[LH Panther Mom]

Honestly, I think there's just too many facts that I'm not aware of to the story for an impartial opinion.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
Honestly, I think there's just too many facts that I'm not aware of to the story for an impartial opinion.


i wrote a book earlier on the subject when you just about summed up my point....good job Mom.....

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by rockdale80
i wrote a book earlier on the subject when you just about summed up my point....good job Mom.....

lol So did I....just ran out of words.

[LH Panther Mom]

A three-judge panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals early Wednesday declined to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/23/schiavo/index.html

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by fball_gal310
You want to be taken to a vet...how funny!



That was said "tongue in cheek".....it just seems a lot more humane and a heck of a lot cheaper.

[Holmes_Fans]

I heard on the news today that a Burnet man and his two kids were arrested outside the hospital for trying to do something relating to this. I didn't hear what though.

[spiveyrat]

Originally posted by Holmes_Fans
I heard on the news today that a Burnet man and his two kids were arrested outside the hospital for trying to do something relating to this. I didn't hear what though.
Probably trying to bring her a cup of water.

[LH Panther Mom]

Hopefully the end will be soon for her. God bless her soul.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/24/schiavo/index.html

[spiveyrat]

When you stop and think about it, doesn't it seem strange that trying to bring someone a cup of water (in this case) would get you arrested.

Hypothetically, if someone were to get in there with a gun and shoot and kill her to ease her misery, what would happen to that individual. I'm sure I know the answer, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this case since last Friday. There is just too much about it that doesn't "feel" right. My conscience has really been in overdrive lately.