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GreenMonster
03-18-2005, 02:06 PM
Are there any others out there that are wondering just why in the world the politicians think that they have to entirely rework the school finance system??? I have an easier idea. Kill Robin Hood. Go back to each district keeping what they bring in. Add on a 1 or 2 cent statewide sales tax. Put all of that money into a special fund to be distributed out to the districts to "Level the playing field." The old system that is based on property taxes has worked for years. Robin Hood Plan is what got us all out of kilter. Do away with Robin Hood and find a new solution to the problem Robin Hood was supposed to fix. Seems to make more sense to me and it would cost us, the Tax Payers, less money to implement. The infrastructure costs alone on a complete overhaul of the system makes this new proposition a failure. I think I can handle paying an extra 10 cents for my Big Mac Combo Meal at Mc Donlad's, how bout you?

Phil C
03-18-2005, 02:41 PM
The only trouble is that it wouldn't be fair to the counties that played Robin Hood for years but now need the help while those that got Robin Hood Money but don't need it now and want to stop it so they don't have to have payback. It is sort of like having refs call the game one way in basketball. Now if the Robin Hood States are for it then that is different but for some of them payback time is needed. A fair way might be to make those that benefited from it but don't need it now pay back the counties that paid.

This needs to be looked over carefully in my opinion.

Phil C
03-18-2005, 02:44 PM
What I mean is that several counties that had oil boom money had to play Robin Hood and now that the oil boom money is gone and they need the help there is talk about ending it before they get help when they need it.

GreenMonster
03-18-2005, 02:45 PM
No one has any thoughts on this matter?? It is only your kids and grandkids educations that they are putting in jeopardy as well as your tax dollars. Think about it, the current state sales tax is 6.25%. That pays for almost all of the state budget. How much money would another 1 or 2 percent sales tax raise??? It would raise a ton of money.

GreenMonster
03-18-2005, 02:57 PM
Good point Phil. But, some bad calls are irreversible. It's better to move past it and make the system work for everyone. Would you be happy if your grandkids school district had the same income as say the Southlake Carroll School district?? I think that all Robin Hood accomplished was to raise tax rates. The so called poor districts had to raise tax rates to qualify for state aid and the so called rich districts had to raise rates to continue to provide the same quality of education they were providing prior to Robin Hood. In my opinion this sucks for everyone. I believe that we should forget about yesterday and take care of today and tommorrow. What happened in the past has already happened. We can't change it. But we can make sure it doesn't happen again. I am a pro-education minded person. I do not care what it costs me personally. I want my kids to get the same quality of education no matter where I choose to live in the state of Texas. I want all kids to have the same opportunities.

LH Panther Mom
03-18-2005, 03:20 PM
I've been out of pocket for a bit. GM, I know it's quite out of character for me, but I do have an opinion. :p

Robin Hood was sorely needed at the time, but has long outlived its usefulness. In 1991, a piece of legislation was introduced that, according to our esteemed governor, would help solve public education funding problems. The legislation passed and the Texas Lottery was born....the first lotto tickets being sold in May, 1992. However, it was not until September, 1997 that any revenue was set aside for the Foundation School Fund. Does anyone besides me wonder what happened with the 5 1/3 years worth of monies that were NOT set aside for public education? :confused: If, since 1997, $7 billion has been contributed, then the missing funds should be somewhere in the neighborhood of $4.5 billion. :eek:

JasperDog94
03-19-2005, 01:09 AM
Why does every solution always seem to involve more taxes?:mad: :mad:

big daddy russ
03-19-2005, 02:07 AM
Just call me the Sherriff of Nottingham because I hate Robin Hood.

Ingleside ISD, a "rich" school district, was once one of the richest districts in the state. On top of that, they managed their money well, saved for future expansion and didn't waste their money. But after Robin Hood, we were depleted of most of our resources and actually have a smaller income than most school districts throughout the state... all because the Robin Hood Act does not distribute money evenly.

Ingleside has since had to cut it's athletic program to almost nothing, has very outdated facilities, and the student-teacher ratio has blown up... especially in the last three years. Our weightroom is the oldest and the smallest in the district and that's the least of our problems. I know that $1 billion a year (lotto money) spread evenly throughout the state's 1,000+ schools will help a little, but most of that would probably just go to getting some teachers back in here.

Gilmer Buckeye
03-19-2005, 11:02 AM
The Republican Party will be in charge of this state for the rest of your lives and will only grow stronger.

Them that has gets. Them that ain't got will have what little they had taken away.

If you can spot my grammatical errors, thank a teacher. Just don't raise my taxes anymore.

If all these teachers are on the verge of leaving for the private sector, I say "make my day" and "good luck with that." The GOP will respect you more if you are a taxpayer rather than a tax recipient. If you are still young enough, I hear the military is hiring. These wars are supposed to last for the next 100 years or until the rest of the world stops financing our debt, whichever comes first.

In this county, the seven school districts together are the No. 1 employer we have. Those seven different districts serve about 5,500 students with seven different superintendents making six-figure salaries. That small a number of students could be overseen by one guy making a six-figure salary, it would seem to me.

The private sector (and there wasn't much of one to begin with) except for "services" is all moving to the slave-labor markets of Mexico and the Far East. Even many of the service jobs are being outsourced.

I think even Mexico is losing out to Asia at the rate their citizens are moving up here. A lot of the population growth in the Texas schools is coming from the maturation of the Mexican "anchor babies."

Old Dog
03-19-2005, 11:05 AM
This is the state's way of keeping all schools average (real definition........abounding in mediocrity)

PhiI C
03-19-2005, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by big daddy russ
Just call me the Sherriff of Nottingham because I hate Robin Hood.

Ingleside ISD, a "rich" school district, was once one of the richest districts in the state. On top of that, they managed their money well, saved for future expansion and didn't waste their money. But after Robin Hood, we were depleted of most of our resources and actually have a smaller income than most school districts throughout the state... all because the Robin Hood Act does not distribute money evenly.

Ingleside has since had to cut it's athletic program to almost nothing, has very outdated facilities, and the student-teacher ratio has blown up... especially in the last three years. Our weightroom is the oldest and the smallest in the district and that's the least of our problems. I know that $1 billion a year (lotto money) spread evenly throughout the state's 1,000+ schools will help a little, but most of that would probably just go to getting some teachers back in here.

The real shame of it Big was that Ingleside had to cut out its' soccer program. :mad:

HighSchool Fan
03-19-2005, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Gilmer Buckeye
The Republican Party will be in charge of this state for the rest of your lives and will only grow stronger.



Thank God for that.

big daddy russ
03-19-2005, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Gilmer Buckeye
...Them that has gets. Them that ain't got will have what little they had taken away...

...If all these teachers are on the verge of leaving for the private sector, I say "make my day" and "good luck with that." The GOP will respect you more if you are a taxpayer rather than a tax recipient. If you are still young enough, I hear the military is hiring. These wars are supposed to last for the next 100 years or until the rest of the world stops financing our debt, whichever comes first....

...The private sector (and there wasn't much of one to begin with) except for "services" is all moving to the slave-labor markets of Mexico and the Far East. Even many of the service jobs are being outsourced...

First of all, I have no idea what you are saying. Ingleside used to be a "have" school, and from what I can tell you're saying that they still get most of the money. Is that what you're saying? Because they don't.

And what in the world are you talking about by teachers moving to the private sector? Sure there are a few who want to make a little more money, but I have no idea where you were going with this argument. Will those teachers wind up in Mexico? The Far East?

If you're just talking about them taking jobs at private schools you can forget it. Private schools pay far less than just about any public school.

Please explain your post.

scotty
03-20-2005, 09:08 PM
I served my time on the School Board and had many sleepless nights as a result. Today I continue to live in that district and it is a fast growing one. My taxes like all of my neighbors’ keep going up.
A new school has been built and will be occupied next year.
I don’t see much tax relief in sight as the monies have to come from somewhere and the legislators are surely not going to put too big of a burden on the rich. After all, they are the ones who finance their election campaigns.
So what we are about to gain in property tax relief will soon be taken away form us somewhere else. Added sales taxes are an example.
However, right on the other side, I see so much waste going on in school district that if I were a legislator I would have to take a good look at some of the things that are happening.
Just look at Monahans, they’ve re-assigned Coach Hanna and he is no longer head coach and athletic director, but as I understand it he has a year left on his contract and if he doesn’t find a new job that he likes he will be paid for the remaining year of his contract. How much do you suppose the district will get out of his services? I assume very little.
The same with T.J. Mills at La Porte, he was re-assigned and now may be the highest paid baby sitter in the state at something like $82,000. His contract runs to June 2006.
If I were a legislator, it would be pretty hard for me to stick my neck out while districts do crap like that. Those two are only examples how many more are out there, I have no idea.

Old Cardinal
03-20-2005, 10:10 PM
I say give this TX legislation assembly a chance to respond appropriately! The people of TX have been sold a bill-of-goods on education for 50 years now. We finally have a group that are attempting a major over haul and that is good. It's not the same old hype as in the past--it's a whole new positive ballgame. I think we are going to get changes that will benefit education for a change. My pet peeve in overpaid school bureaucrates now sucking up the money that should be going to classroom teachers. It's a bunch of statewide greedy parasites; that is what it is!
If I may directly quote from a major study recently done, "Most education programs that train school administrators are deeply flawed, suffering from irrelevant curriculum, low standards, weak faculty and little clinical instruction. Many programs are doing little more than dishing out higher degrees to teachers who are trying to qualify for salary increases."
The principals and superintendents who run the nation's schools are unprepared for their jobs by education colleges, where training ranges from inadaquate to appalling, according to research by a leader in higher education.
Dr. Levine's extensive study found curriculum that amounted to a grab bag of survey classes, faculty with little experience in what they taught! Many classes are taught by scholars who have never--or have not recently--been in a classroom or a superintendent's office.

I personally think that all children in every class should be given an ole time "achievement test" upon entering the study the first day of class and that same "achievement test" be administered on the last day of the course and teachers evaluation should reflect what the students learn under their watch! Good teachers should them be rewarded and poor instructors should be on probation until results change.

Let's give this legislation group a chance to try to rectify an ole pork barrel system that has brought the TX education system to it's knees while pooping off taxpayers money statewide...

WOS1
03-21-2005, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by big daddy russ
Just call me the Sherriff of Nottingham because I hate Robin Hood.

Ingleside ISD, a "rich" school district, was once one of the richest districts in the state. On top of that, they managed their money well, saved for future expansion and didn't waste their money. But after Robin Hood, we were depleted of most of our resources and actually have a smaller income than most school districts throughout the state... all because the Robin Hood Act does not distribute money evenly.

Ingleside has since had to cut it's athletic program to almost nothing, has very outdated facilities, and the student-teacher ratio has blown up... especially in the last three years. Our weightroom is the oldest and the smallest in the district and that's the least of our problems. I know that $1 billion a year (lotto money) spread evenly throughout the state's 1,000+ schools will help a little, but most of that would probably just go to getting some teachers back in here.

I'm right there with you Russ. WO-S, likewise, was one of the most wealthy schools in the state, until Robin Hood and the 7 mill we had to hand over to the Bridge City ISD. What the WO-S district got was a full campus closing, several teacher positions cut and class room sizes almost doubling. Realize that WO-S makes up of 90% of the minority population in ALL of Orange County as well as the majority of low income families. Naturally, when your class room size doubles and you lose many, many good teachers, what do you think happens next? The TAKS scores this year were so bad that the district now has to pay for families who want their kids out of the district. All the while, BC gets a brand spankin new, state of the art, highschool, nicely equipped with a brand new digital marquis in front. Needless to say, I have to shake my head every time I pass it. Of course, I'm not blaming it on BC at all, but it's frustrating to watch while our school slowly chokes to death.

Tiger90
03-21-2005, 10:05 PM
Not to slag on WOS, but they have had poor management the past several years to the point they were borrowing money to make ends meet. They were strungout. I am sure several other districts were/are as well. There appears to be a lot of instability in that district. www.esc5.net always has openings for WOS listed.

As to an earlier post about only local taxes funding the local district, it involves more than just local taxes. Most districts could not survive strictly based on their property taxes. State monies are needed. Also, this "no child left behind" is one of the worst legislative pieces to ever be placed on the public school systems of this country. Whereas it is a noble idea in principle and appears very good to the general public, for all of the ideas and mandates to be completed funding has to occur. The federal government has yet to step up to the plate but rather instead place more requirements on districts and place certain education programs on the chopping block as a cost cutter. You can look up some of the programs by looking into the new proposed cuts.

A lot more is being placed on those in the education field. It is not just about teaching anymore. It seems every student has some sort of disability and needs "modifications." Obviously some kids do need extra assistance but the whole culture appears to have become needy. I know of parents who have called the school to ask why the teacher has not answered her email message, all the while the parent had just sent the email 15 minutes prior. As much as we would like to think the school is there just for our kids and families there are a lot more students there whose education is just as important.

In terms of rewarding teachers for good jobs it will have to be a carefully crafted plan. It is tough to say because one school is exemplary and one is acceptable they should receive more money when each school services a different cliental of students. School with low social economic conditions usually perform lower than upper middle class. Sometimes priorities are placed in different areas in the home which can translate to less emphasis on education. That's not to say all kids can not achieve, but some just have better guidance. Should a teacher be penalized for something like this that is beyond their control?

Sorry for the rambling, my wife teaches. Serious topic for a high school football board, but cool.:cool:

VWG
03-21-2005, 10:27 PM
It all starts at home. Kids that excel in school usually are being watched over at home making sure homework is completed, reading/studying is being done, etc......
I've known of problems where after school programs to help kids with their classwork is being ignored. The parents aren't willing to pick them up later or feel it's unnecessary, while the kid struggles to keep up in class.
Now... this isn't related to school finance, but you see my point.

Specklebelly
03-21-2005, 10:35 PM
I think Scotty and Old Cardinal make some really valid points. I personally think we are all too quick to look to the state legislature for a handout when we should be looking to our school officials and school board and asking them if anyone ever taught them how to balance a checkbook. Its true that our schools need more money, they all do. Our schools could do a better job though making due with what they have and not wasting money.

I personally have to pat my school board and administrative staff on the back. Our school collects little in property tax yet pays our teachers better than many surrounding communities. How do we do that? Good budgets that the school draws up and follows through with. Its lead to many solid, experienced teachers from other towns coming to our schools and making them better for our children.

I think Old Cardinal's idea for testing children the first day of school and then at the end to see what they have learned is great. It is about a close as you can get to a valid way to comparing teachers from different districts. A standardized test at the end of year only is inadequate because teachers at schools in more affluent areas would have a huge advantage. All kids and areas are different, which is all the more reason why the no child left behind program is a joke. A cookie cutter idea of what a kid should know is not a good way to evaluate children who come from various backgrounds.

If the state really wanted to get some money in our school's hands quickly, legalize gambling and get some casinos placed in certain areas in the state. I know truckloads of Texans who flock to Louisiana and spend money gambling often. Thats an industry you can tax the fire out of and give back to the schools. We could keep that money in the state very easily.

VWG
03-21-2005, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Specklebelly
I think Scotty and Old Cardinal make some really valid points. I personally think we are all too quick to look to the state legislature for a handout when we should be looking to our school officials and school board and asking them if anyone ever taught them how to balance a checkbook. Its true that our schools need more money, they all do. Our schools could do a better job though making due with what they have and not wasting money.

I personally have to pat my school board and administrative staff on the back. Our school collects little in property tax yet pays our teachers better than many surrounding communities. How do we do that? Good budgets that the school draws up and follows through with. Its lead to many solid, experienced teachers from other towns coming to our schools and making them better for our children.

I think Old Cardinal's idea for testing children the first day of school and then at the end to see what they have learned is great. It is about a close as you can get to a valid way to comparing teachers from different districts. A standardized test at the end of year only is inadequate because teachers at schools in more affluent areas would have a huge advantage. All kids and areas are different, which is all the more reason why the no child left behind program is a joke. A cookie cutter idea of what a kid should know is not a good way to evaluate children who come from various backgrounds.

If the state really wanted to get some money in our school's hands quickly, legalize gambling and get some casinos placed in certain areas in the state. I know truckloads of Texans who flock to Louisiana and spend money gambling often. Thats an industry you can tax the fire out of and give back to the schools. We could keep that money in the state very easily.


Casinos will not help.... they were supposed to bring truckloads of cash in with the Texas Lottery.

WOS1
03-21-2005, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by Specklebelly
I think Old Cardinal's idea for testing children the first day of school and then at the end to see what they have learned is great. It is about a close as you can get to a valid way to comparing teachers from different districts. A standardized test at the end of year only is inadequate because teachers at schools in more affluent areas would have a huge advantage. All kids and areas are different, which is all the more reason why the no child left behind program is a joke. A cookie cutter idea of what a kid should know is not a good way to evaluate children who come from various backgrounds.

The only way that would work is if they're compared to schools who have similar socio-economic groups. Again, comparing how much kids from BC learn to kids from WO-S is apples and Oranges because, as you mention, some groups will have more emphasis put on success in school in the home than others will.


Originally posted by Tiger90
Not to slag on WOS, but they have had poor management the past several years to the point they were borrowing money to make ends meet. They were strungout. I am sure several other districts were/are as well. There appears to be a lot of instability in that district. www.esc5.net always has openings for WOS listed.

There is a lot of truth to the mismanagement you mention, though it's not as bad as you may think and is NOT the primary cause for the current situation. The money borrowing you mention was in response to Robinhood. As for the teachers, at one time, they had no problem keeping them, they were one of the highest paying school districts in this area as well as the state. We still have our tax base on chemical row. Hopefully, with the new management we have and changes coming to Robinhood, we can get back to where we used to be.

JasperDog94
03-22-2005, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by WOS1
The only way that would work is if they're compared to schools who have similar socio-economic groups. Again, comparing how much kids from BC learn to kids from WO-S is apples and Oranges because, as you mention, some groups will have more emphasis put on success in school in the home than others will.

I couldn't agree more. And who's going to monitor and assess what students know the first day? What's going to stop a teacher from lowering what students "know the first day" so that it looks really good at the end of school.

This also doen't take into account a student that my wife had this year. He's been diagnosed 1 step away from mentally retarded. And they barely met the deadline for this school year before he was diagnosed. What would have happened had he stayed in her class (kindergarten) and brought down her average? He couldn't follow simple instructions. It's not his fault, but it would have killed her "rating" under this system.

Another thing to think about is that if you put the emphasis on what kids learn and tie teacher raises and performance evaluations on it, then you have just turned over partial administrative power to the kids. If a few kids really hate a teacher, what's to keep them from blowing the assesment at the end of the year and keeping the teacher from having a decent pay raise, or even getting the teacher fired?

I'm not opposed to teacher accountibility. I was one and it bothered me that I worked my tail off and got the same salary and raises as the teachers that did the bare minimum. But someone would have to be a great salesman to sell me on a plan like this.