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44INAROW
01-27-2005, 10:20 PM
****from another site****** I am assuming this is correct and do apologize if it's not "legit"

CONGRATS TO ALL :)

Gilmer quarterback Manuel Johnson was named the Texas Sports Writers Association's Class 3A offensive player of the year on Thursday.

Johnson, a 180-pound senior, threw for 4,098 yards with 48 touchdowns and 12 interceptions. He added 1,030 yards rushing with 15 touchdowns, leading Gilmer to the Division II state championship.

Marlin defensive lineman Chris Stewart was the defensive player of the year. Stewart had 165 tackles, 19 sacks, 27 quarterback pressures and 31 tackles for losses for the 12-2 Bulldogs.

Division I state champion Abilene Wylie was represented by offensive guard Tyler Crump. His head coach, Hugh Sandifer, was named coach of the year.

TSWA Class 3A 2004 All-State Team

FIRST TEAM

Offense:

Guards — Tyler Crump, Abilene Wylie, 6-3, 325, Sr.; Roy Sierra, Cuero, 6-2, 330, Sr.

Tackles — Brandon Carter, Longview Spring Hill, 6-5, 320; Chris Luckey, Liberty Hill, 6-3, 250, Jr.

Center — Beau White, Kaufman, 6-2, 270, Sr.

Wide receivers — Tay Bowser, Gilmer, 6-3, 190, Sr.; Brian Christian, Decatur, 6-3, 180, Sr.

Tight end — Jermichael Finley, Diboll, 6-5, 210, Sr.

Quarterback — Manuel Johnson, Gilmer, 6-2, 180, Sr.

Running backs — Ryan Lawhorn, Liberty Hill, 5-9, 190, Sr.; Dee Walker, Snyder, 5-11, 185, Sr.; Paul Whitehead, Devine, 5-8, 175, Sr.

Place-kicker — David Ceballos, China Spring, 5-6, 145, Sr.

Defense:

Linemen — D'Angelo Davis, Snyder, 5-11, 170, Sr.; Chris Stewart Marlin, 6-0, 230, Sr.; Donovan King, Rice Consolidated, 6-4, 235, Sr.; Jake Holladay, Gilmer, 6-2, 190, Sr. and Travis Wilson, Kaufman, 5-9, 185, Sr. (tie)

Linebackers — Ronald Brown, Palestine, 5-11, 185, Sr.; Daniel Dodd, Gilmer, 6-3, 185, Sr.; Derrick Bean, Jasper, Sr.; Casey Harrryman, Cuero, 6-1, 210, Sr.

Defensive backs — Leon Angton, Dallas Madison, 6-1, 190, Sr.; Anthony Webb, Wilmer-Hutchins, 6-1, 180, Jr.; Devon Hughes, Marlin, 5-9, 160, Sr.; Clayton Young, Canyon, 6-0, 175, Sr. Punter — Orlando Ochoa, Port Isabel, 6-2, 185, Jr.

Kick-returner — Desmond Wyrick, Texarkana Liberty-Eylau, 5-9, 170, Sr.

Coach of the Year — Hugh Sandifer, Abilene Wylie.

Offensive Player of the Year — Manuel Johnson, Gilmer, 6-2, 180, Sr.

Defensive Player of the Year — Chris Stewart Marlin, 6-0, 230, Sr.

SECOND TEAM

Offense:

Guards — Cole Thurman, Canyon, 6-3, 265, Sr.; Bryan Weaver, Cuero, 6-3, 265, Sr.

Tackles — Buck Burnette, Wimberley, 6-3, 310, Jr.; Ross Nigh, Cuero, 6-5, 285, Sr.

Center — Levi Wolfe, Abilene Wylie, 6-0, 260, Sr.

Wide receivers — Kevin Hollis, Gilmer, 6-3, 185, Sr.; Zach Schmitt, Glen Rose, 5-10, 175, Sr.

Tight end — Josh Wheeler, Texarkana Liberty-Eylau, 6-6, 200, Sr.

Quarterback — Chandler Dane, Decatur, 6-0, 190, Sr.

Running backs — Casey Kociuba, Liberty Hill, 6-2, 190, Jr. and Uriah Tank Smith, Marlin, 5-10, 206, Sr. (tie); DeMario Thomas, Longview Spring Hill, Sr., 5-10, 190, Sr.; Cody Glenn, Rusk, 6-0, 220, Sr.

Place-kicker — Ryan Spence, Decatur, 6-2, 175, Sr.

Defense:

Linemen — Ty Gurganus, Lorena, 6-1, 200, Sr.; Jared Robertson, Abilene Wylie, 6-0, 220, Jr.; John Thomas Rudd, Cuero, 6-2, 230, Jr.; Greg Hardeman, Madisonville, 6-3, 200, Sr.

Linebackers — Tony Haberer, Liberty Hill, 6-2, 215, Sr.; Frankie Herrera, Port Isabel, 6-1, 190, Sr.; Tait Langston, Lubbock Cooper, 6-0, 201, Sr. and Chaz Kuikahi, Gilmer, 6-1, 190, Sr. (tie); Juan Nunez, Muleshoe, 6-0, 215, Sr.

Defensive backs — Bo Merrell, Perryton, 6-2, 185, Sr.; Darius Johnson, Cameron, 5-10, 170, Sr.; Kendall Carrillo, Sweetwater, 6-0, 175, Jr.; Jeremy Ross, Cuero, 6-1, 175, Sr.

Punter — Justin Brantly, Sealy, 6-4, 215, Sr.

Kick-returner — Chuck Neal, Kaufman, 5-9, 165, Jr.

THIRD TEAM

Offense:

Guards — Nolan Barborak, Gonzales, 6-2, 255, Sr. and Randall Hutchinson, Navasota, 6-2, 260, Sr. (tie); Ikedrian Coleman, Carthage, 6-0, 280, Sr.

Tackles — Rolando Reyes, Port Isabel, 6-3, 240, Sr. and Zack Garcia, Snyder, 6-3, 255, Sr. (tie); Marcus Hodges, Tatum, 6-3, 255, Sr.

Center — Keith Dahman, Waco Connally, 6-3, 244, Jr. and Chris Wooten, Kennedale, 6-0, 240, Sr. (tie)

Wide receivers — Derek Evans, Cameron Yoe, 6-4, 190, Sr. and Montrell Pennington, Center, 5-10, 160, Sr. (tie); Kirby Paredes, Zapata, 6-2, 185, Sr.

Tight end — Tony Haberer, Liberty Hill, 6-2, 215, Sr.

Quarterback — Stephen Hodge, Tatum, 6-1, 205, Sr. and Trey Jones, Wharton, 6-0, 175, Sr.(tie)

Running backs — Karlidaris Beechum, Carthage, 5-10, 200, Sr.; Jamarcus Patton, Center, 5-8, 155, Jr.; Chris Smith, Navasota, 6-0, 220, Sr.

Place-kicker — A.J. Heckler, Bridge City, 5-7, 150, Jr.

Defense:

Linemen — Shane Ewing, Cameron, 6-2, 250, Sr.; Omar Garza, Falfurrias, 6-0, 225, Sr.; Ben Jacobs, Waco Connally, 6-0, 190, Sr.; Brandon Evans, West Columbia, 5-10, 220, Sr. and Larry Griffin, Wilmer-Hutchins,6-1, 290, Jr. (tie)

Linebackers — Josh McCoy, Wilmer-Hutchins, Sr., 6-2, 200; Jake Medley, Longview Spring Hill, 6-2, 205, Sr. and Kyle Lightsey, Fairfield, 5-11, 209, Sr. (tie); Michael Miller, Gainesville, 6-0, 190, Jr.; Stephen DeGrate, Texarkana Liberty-Eylau, 6-2, 210, Jr.; Jimmy Aguilar, Glen Rose, 5-10, 190, Sr.; Jacob Biddle, Wimberley, 6-2, 210, Jr.; Wendell Davis, Sweeny, 6-2, 210, Jr.

Defensive backs — Alfraid Manning, Fairfield, 6-3, 175, Soph.; Jeremy Schmidt, Huffman-Hargrave, 5-7, 150, Jr.; Joey Garcia, Zapata, 5-10, 170, Sr.; Wes Bailey, Madisonville, Sr.

Punter — Kyle Pope, Spring Hill, 5-8, 150, Sr.

Kick-returner — J.D. Pennington, Robinson, 5-11, 185, Sr. and Jerrus Doss, Mount Vernon, Jr. (tie)

crabman
01-27-2005, 10:44 PM
DFHM gets his wish. 1st team all state ! Baby boy gets second team !!!

44INAROW
01-27-2005, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by crabman
DFHM gets his wish. 1st team all state ! Baby boy gets second team !!!


WAY TO GO GUYS and fellow Downlow alum - CHUBBED UP :)

LH Panther Mom
01-27-2005, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by crabman
DFHM gets his wish. 1st team all state ! Baby boy gets second team !!!

Congrats to him! And to all the boys.

Z motion 10 out on 2
01-27-2005, 11:10 PM
Glad to see that Snyder, Sweetwater and Wylie all had reps!

CheerMom
01-27-2005, 11:57 PM
A BIG Congrats to Rice's own Donovan King in making first team defense and Charles Huffman for making honorable mention running back, Curtis Williams for hm offense, and Joe Cooper and Robert Shaw for hm defense. Great job guys!!! I am proud of all of you!!!
Congrats also go out to all the other well deserved honorees.

gobbler grad
01-27-2005, 11:57 PM
CONGRATS. GUYS

injuredinmelee
01-28-2005, 03:54 AM
finally Jared Robertson is getting some love!!!

injuredinmelee
01-28-2005, 03:55 AM
Also congrats to Levi Wolfe and Tyler Crump

UPanIN
01-28-2005, 09:20 AM
The rest of the list.

Earning honorable mention were offensive tackle Marcus Zarosky (92 percent blocking grade), wide receiver Curtis Hoyle (47 catches-673 yards, 9 TDs), quarterback Ryan Mullins (185-of-308 passing for 2,561 yards, 26 TDs and 174 carries-950 yards, 11 TDs) and defensive back Evans (3 interceptions) from Cameron; defensive back Scott Martin (82 tackles, 5 interceptions) and punter Mark Kaspar from Navasota (40.8 average); tight end Dan Drake (15 catches-327 yards, 4 TDs), defensive lineman Jerry Cruz (61 tackles, 13 for losses) and linebacker and linebacker Germaine Dawson (93 tackles, 15 for losses); and running back Kendrick Pittman (292 carries-1,974 yards, 19 TDs) and defensive back Freddy Williams (80 tackles, 6 interceptions) from Caldwell.

44INAROW
01-28-2005, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by UPanIN
The rest of the list.

Earning honorable mention were offensive tackle Marcus Zarosky (92 percent blocking grade), wide receiver Curtis Hoyle (47 catches-673 yards, 9 TDs), quarterback Ryan Mullins (185-of-308 passing for 2,561 yards, 26 TDs and 174 carries-950 yards, 11 TDs) and defensive back Evans (3 interceptions) from Cameron; defensive back Scott Martin (82 tackles, 5 interceptions) and punter Mark Kaspar from Navasota (40.8 average); tight end Dan Drake (15 catches-327 yards, 4 TDs), defensive lineman Jerry Cruz (61 tackles, 13 for losses) and linebacker and linebacker Germaine Dawson (93 tackles, 15 for losses); and running back Kendrick Pittman (292 carries-1,974 yards, 19 TDs) and defensive back Freddy Williams (80 tackles, 6 interceptions) from Caldwell.

I certainly didn't mean to exclude anyone - Hon Mention was not on the list I found. last night.. but here is the ENTIRE LIST (not just a select few) of Honorable Mentions posted in the paper this morning
HONORABLE MENTION

Offense

Guards - Jacob Bierman, Brady, 6-0, 240, sr.; Zach Gilbert, Sweetwater, 6-1, 240, sr.; Jeffrey Moore, Carthage, 5-10, 230, sr.; Clint Parks, Huffman-Hargrave, sr.; Kenny Perez, Port Isabel, 5-9, 210, sr.; Curtis Williams, Rice Consolidated, 6-0, 260, jr.

Tackles - Josh Camacho, Sweetwater, 6-0, 260, sr.; Doug Carlton, Bridge City, 6-4, 235, sr.; Kevin Dahman, Waco Connally, 6-3, 247, jr.; Joseph George, Palestine, 6-5, 250, sr.; Matt Hart, Huffman-Hargrave, 6-6, 325, sr.; Jacob Janda, Giddings, 6-3, 265, sr.; John Marshall, Mount Vernon, 6-3, 265, jr.; Chris McDaniel, Royse City, 6-1, 290, sr.; Brian Pettigrew, Kaufman, 6-4, 250, sr.; Jarred Robbins, Decatur, 6-1, 242, sr.; Marcus Zarosky, Cameron, 6-2, 240, jr.

Center - David Browne, Seminole, 5-11, 240, soph.; Isaac Chagoya, Poteet, 5-10, 193, sr. ; Josh Hooten, Robinson, 5-10, 250, jr.; Caleb Wendt, Needville, 6-0, 230, soph.

Wide receivers - Brett Brittain, Yoakum, 6-6, 195, jr.; Will Carpenter, Llano, 6-0, 170, sr.; Lico Castillo, Snyder, 6-0, 175, sr.; Desmond Doss, Silsbee, sr.; Jonathon Ellis, Canton, 5-10, 170, jr.; Michael Hartsfield, Van Alstyne, 5-11, 155, sr.; Curtis Hoyle, Cameron, 6-2, 170, sr.; Leon Mickens, Palestine, 6-1, 170, jr.; Jared Peddy, Canyon, 5-10, 180, sr.; Josh Poorman, Abilene Wylie, 6-2, 180, sr.; Jeremy Ross, Cuero, 6-1, 175, sr.

Tight end - Dan Drake, Rockdale, 6-4, 210, jr.; John Thomas Rudd, Cuero, 6-2, 230, jr.; Andrew Jones, Columbia, 6-3, 285, sr.

Quarterback - Dustin Bell, Wilmer-Hutchins, 6-1, 180, sr.; Colby Dickson, Mount Vernon, 6-3, 165, sr.; Justin Feaster, Glen Rose, 6-2, 201, sr.; Wayne Jefferson, Fort Stockton, 6-1, 185, sr.; G.J. Kinne, Canton, 6-2, 185, soph.; Matt Lovorn, Canyon, 6-2, 195, sr.; Ryan Mullins, Cameron Yoe, 5-11, 180, sr.; Jeremy Sanders, Marlin, 6-2, 185, jr.; Matt Schumacher, Cuero, 6-1, 175, sr.; Justin Swenson, Iowa Park, 5-9, 162, sr.; Fred Williams, Palestine, 5-11, 175, sr.

Running backs - Jerrod Craddock, Farmersville, 5-10, 185, sr.; Cory Elliott, Huffman-Hargrave, 5-8, 175, sr.; Matt Escamilla, Liberty Hill, 5-11, 190, jr.; Travis Franco, Sinton, 5-8, 160, sr.; Major Henderson, Bowie, 6-1, 192, sr.; Cameron Holliness, Royse City, 6-0, 205, jr.; Charles Huffman, Rice Consolidated, 5-8, 195, sr.; Jarail Johnson, Pilot Point, 6-1, 175, sr.; Cameron Jones, Palestine, 5-7, 160, sr.; Colin Jones, Bridgeport, 6-1, 190, jr.; Jarail Johnson, Pilot Point, 6-1, 170, sr.; Mike Kiger, Abilene Wylie, 5-10, 170, sr.; Kyle Lightsey, Fairfield, 5-11, 209, sr.; Billy Martin, Pittsburg, 5-11, 185, jr.; Blake Mercer, Kaufman, 5-10, 175, jr.; J.D. Pennington, Robinson, 5-11, 185, sr.; Kendrick Pittman, Caldwell, 5-11, 185, sr.; Patrick Williams, Waco Connally, 5-6, 185, sr.

Defense

Linemen - Jerry Cruz, Rockdale,5-9, 212, sr.; Esteban Delgadillo, Port Isabel, 5-11, 225, jr.; Andrew Jones, Columbia, 6-3, 285, sr.; Jake Page, Shepherd, 6-2, 185, sr.; Clint Stoffels, Gainesville, 6-1, 248, jr.; Robert Shaw, Rice Consolidated, 6-2, 215, sr.; Shawn Stults, Lubbock Cooper, 6-0, 187, sr.; Russell Tayor, Texarkana Liberty-Eylau, 6-3, 270, sr.; Brett Watson, Perryton, 6-4, 210, sr.

Linebackers - Kyle Berend, Graham, 6-2, 195, sr.; Richard Carlisle, Kaufman, 5-9, 180, jr.; Joe Cooper, Rice Consolidated, 5-10, 226, sr.; Germaine Dawson, Rockdale, 6-2, 209, sr.; Eric Martinez, Snyder, 6-0, 185, sr.; Daylon McCoy, Tatum, 5-10, 180, sr.; David Shields, Center, 6-1, 220, jr.; Steven Suarez, Seminole, 5-11, 170, sr.; Dominque Whitehead, CC West Oso, 6-0, 205, jr.

Defensive backs - Andrew Acuna, Orange Grove, 6-2, 175, sr.; Derrius Bell, Wilmer-Hutchins, 5-8, 170, soph.; Tyler Belrose, Center, 6-1, 165, sr.; Vernon Dixon, Corpus Christi West Oso, 5-9, 160, sr.; Sonny Estrada, Poteet, 6-0, 182, jr.; Derrick Evans, Cameron, 6-4, 190, jr.; D'Kendrick Gilder, Jasper, sr.; D.J. Goldstein, Wimberley, 6-0, 165, sr.; Arthur Johnson, Longview Spring Hill, 5-10, 170, sr.; Kellen Lane, Borger, 6-2, 160, sr.; Scott Martin, Navasota, 6-1, 185, sr.; Tim Monroe, Mount Vernon, 6-2, 185, sr.; Garrett Pinson, Snyder, 5-10, 175, sr.; Kyle Pope, Spring Hill, 5-8, 150, sr.; Nathan Price, Brady, 6-1, 160, sr.; Pablo Ramos, Port Isabel, 5-10, 165, sr.; Demikel Shankle, Longview Spring Hill, 5-10, 170, sr.; Jazz Thomas, Marlin, 5-10, 175, jr.; Devin Turner, Dallas Madison, 5-11, 180, jr.; Freddy Williams, Caldwell, 6-0, 180, sr.

Punter - Mark Kaspar, Navasota, 6-2, 190, sr.; Chris Kindle, Muleshoe, 6-1, 160, sr.; Cody Malone, Marlin, 5-10, 160, sr.; Will Middlebrooks, Texarkana Liberty-Eylau, 6-3, 180, soph.

gobbler grad
01-28-2005, 10:15 AM
congrats to everyone...great job and great season:clap: :clap:

89JDAWG
01-28-2005, 10:41 AM
ouch!!! You can tell that there is not many if any sports writers in the Jasper area. Patton was left off and he is D1. 1 first team and 1 honorable mention!!??

UPanIN
01-28-2005, 10:44 AM
Hey 44INAROW, My bad too. I got that list from the Bryan Eagle and they only listed the Brazos Valley kids. I sure didn't want to leave anyone out. It's an honor for all on the list.

44INAROW
01-28-2005, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by UPanIN
Hey 44INAROW, My bad too. I got that list from the Bryan Eagle and they only listed the Brazos Valley kids. I sure didn't want to leave anyone out. It's an honor for all on the list.

We'll have to get on these regional papers and tell them that the DOWNLOW is a full service forum and we like to report ALL THE NEWS :)..........

Black_Magic
01-28-2005, 10:47 AM
Snyder has 5 listed. 2 will be back next year. both on D . congrats guys.

Macarthur
01-28-2005, 10:58 AM
I know we get tired of people coming on here bitching about who should and should not have made the list, but I do have one glaring omission.

Tyler Duggins, Jr. OL, from Iowa Park. 6'6" 265lbs. All-dist soph & jr year (1st team) and texasprepxtra.com's 1st team all-west texas OT (all classifications).

By my count there were about 15 OT's on the list. For him to not be on the list of the top 15 tackles in 3A is a joke. Based on the amount of interest he is getting from D1 programs, he most likely will be in the top 10 OT's in the entire state for the recruiting class of 2006.

There are several kids on team that played IP on this list, and there was not single Friday night this year when there was a "better" lineman on the field than Duggins. And that includes the 4A all-state DT from Wichita Falls, David Gross, who got a good butt whipping that night.

StangMom2
01-28-2005, 12:04 PM
Congrats to all who made All-state......especially to Kendal, Josh & Zach from Sweetwater and Eric from Snyder.....
I am very proud of ya'll.

injuredinmelee
01-28-2005, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Macarthur
I know we get tired of people coming on here bitching about who should and should not have made the list, but I do have one glaring omission.

Tyler Duggins, Jr. OL, from Iowa Park. 6'6" 265lbs. All-dist soph & jr year (1st team) and texasprepxtra.com's 1st team all-west texas OT (all classifications).

By my count there were about 15 OT's on the list. For him to not be on the list of the top 15 tackles in 3A is a joke. Based on the amount of interest he is getting from D1 programs, he most likely will be in the top 10 OT's in the entire state for the recruiting class of 2006.

There are several kids on team that played IP on this list, and there was not single Friday night this year when there was a "better" lineman on the field than Duggins. And that includes the 4A all-state DT from Wichita Falls, David Gross, who got a good butt whipping that night.


I agree Tyler should be on this list somewhere.

rhs78
01-28-2005, 01:05 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CheerMom
A BIG Congrats to Rice's own Donovan King in making first team defense and Charles Huffman for making honorable mention running back!!! I am very proud of you both!!
Congrats also go out to all the other well deserved nominees. [/TE]
i second that cheermom, and congrats to all on the list.

District303aPastPlayer
01-29-2005, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by 89JDAWG
ouch!!! You can tell that there is not many if any sports writers in the Jasper area. Patton was left off and he is D1. 1 first team and 1 honorable mention!!??

sucks dont it... Franco had over 40 TDs this season and over 2500 all purpose yards.. and he gets hon. mention... he was one of the top 5 RBs i had seen all year (homer in me comin out) and what is up with only ONE sinton player from a great team? i dont get it....

sinton66
01-29-2005, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
sucks dont it... Franco had over 40 TDs this season and over 2500 all purpose yards.. and he gets hon. mention... he was one of the top 5 RBs i had seen all year (homer in me comin out) and what is up with only ONE sinton player from a great team? i dont get it....

Think about it, who do the sportswriters in OUR area work for?

football4life
01-30-2005, 01:30 PM
Jared Peddy, Canyon, 5-10, 180, jr.;

dang i wish i weighed 180 pounds! not sure where they got that from.

Astrosdawg07
01-30-2005, 02:42 PM
Way to go BEAN!!!! Win the Wille Ray Lewis award also!!!

http://news.mywebpal.com/partners/974/images/news/bean-1.jpg

chugbug
01-31-2005, 12:21 PM
This is unbelievable. Charles Huffman may noy be the best back in 3A football, but he is Definately in the top 3. :eek: :eek: :tongue: :eek: :eek: :eek:

CheerMom
01-31-2005, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by chugbug
This is unbelievable. Charles Huffman may noy be the best back in 3A football, but he is Definately in the top 3. :eek: :eek: :tongue: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I agree!!!!

Z motion 10 out on 2
01-31-2005, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Macarthur
I know we get tired of people coming on here bitching about who should and should not have made the list, but I do have one glaring omission.

Tyler Duggins, Jr. OL, from Iowa Park. 6'6" 265lbs. All-dist soph & jr year (1st team) and texasprepxtra.com's 1st team all-west texas OT (all classifications).

By my count there were about 15 OT's on the list. For him to not be on the list of the top 15 tackles in 3A is a joke. Based on the amount of interest he is getting from D1 programs, he most likely will be in the top 10 OT's in the entire state for the recruiting class of 2006.

There are several kids on team that played IP on this list, and there was not single Friday night this year when there was a "better" lineman on the field than Duggins. And that includes the 4A all-state DT from Wichita Falls, David Gross, who got a good butt whipping that night.


Duggins was a very good player. Deserving athlete.

District303aPastPlayer
01-31-2005, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by chugbug
This is unbelievable. Charles Huffman may noy be the best back in 3A football, but he is Definately in the top 3. :eek: :eek: :tongue: :eek: :eek: :eek:

my feelings about Franco as well....

and it sucks when your area sportswriters dont like your High School. Sinton High School is the one high school in the area that, unless they lose as they did to Cuero twice and Gregory Portland, will not get a front page article. Its one of those danged if you do, danged if ya dont situations.