Pilot Point Ineligible?

[Quinlan ford fan]

We thought this thing was settled until late June but just found out the Quinlan Ford Football team is going to be practicing this week and preparing to play Atlanta......has anybody heard anything? did the court change the date to hear the case are what.....any info would be appreciated. THANKS

[Chief Woodman]

You tell us...are you guys practicing or not?

[Jacket2000]

Wow, talk about reachin'!
J2K

[sinton66]

Jacket2000:
Wow, talk about reachin'!
J2KYeah, no kidding!

[kaorder1999]

what is this all about?

[sinton66]

http://www.weaselcircus.com/funnypics/complaintdept.jpg

[crzyjournalist03]

what in the world is all this about?

[KTownBalla]

Maybe...Maybe...just maybe...Pilot Point had some failing players...ineligible players..playing in that game, which therefore makes them forfeit the game.

Who knows...anyone got any updates...????

[kaorder1999]

if tghats the case...it will have to go through the UIL and that could take weeks...maybe months..so Quinlan Ford shouldnt be practicing cause i dont think there is any way that anything would be done before friday

[sinton66]

This is a bunch of stuff that started on the pig and they keep trying to bring it over here.

[TXMike]

They have a player who transferred from another school for athletic reasons near the end of last year. The district committee ruled him ineligible, there was an appeal, UIL upheld the ineligibility finding, the student's parents went to Austin and filed suit and got a temporary injunction allowing him to play until the case is heard (which is expected to be in May/June of 2004. Until then, the kid plays.

[sinton66]

And as far as ANYBODY else is concerned, that should be the end of this story.

[TXMike]

Don't know how you can say it is the END of the story. First, it is only a temporary "fix" and is not final. Second, the State Supreme Court has precedent telling District Courts to stay out of the UIL's affairs. If and when this mess ever makes it to the Supreme Court, seems likely they will stay with precedent and remove the courts from what should by a UIL decision. If PP ends up not winning the Championship the whole thing is probably moot. But if they do win, the loser has a chance of "winning by forefeit" after the fact.

[sinton66]

Ok, once and for all, there IS a court order in place. The UIL isn't ABOVE the law. They are not autonomous, and were never intended to be. I have no problem with people seeking legal redress if they feel wronged. I'm just saying since it's in the hands of the law, no one else can do anything about it, so why keep bringing it up? It's stupid and pointless.

[Chief Woodman]

TXMike:
Don't know how you can say it is the END of the story. First, it is only a temporary "fix" and is not final. Second, the State Supreme Court has precedent telling District Courts to stay out of the UIL's affairs. If and when this mess ever makes it to the Supreme Court, seems likely they will stay with precedent and remove the courts from what should by a UIL decision. If PP ends up not winning the Championship the whole thing is probably moot. But if they do win, the loser has a chance of "winning by forefeit" after the fact.That really stinks. Knowing there is precedent at the Supreme court level the judge should not have issued the injunction. Sounds like some other team out of that district got robbed of a chance to play in the playoffs. That is just not right. By the time the ruling is made, it will not affect the primary player as he will have already got to play and never had to sit out. Too bad the same cannot be said for his little brother. He may miss his senior year next year because the ruling will not be in effect until so late. So by time his 1 year suspension starts, he will miss most of his senior year.

[kaorder1999]

i agree....with SINTON66

<small>[ November 17, 2003, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: kaorder1999 ]</small>

[TXMike]

sinton66:
Ok, once and for all, there IS a court order in place. The UIL isn't ABOVE the law. They are not autonomous, and were never intended to be. I have no problem with people seeking legal redress if they feel wronged. I'm just saying since it's in the hands of the law, no one else can do anything about it, so why keep bringing it up? It's stupid and pointless.While there may be little that can be done about this specific situation, it does serve to point out to folks that we still have some judges in Texas who believe they should interfere in matters that are not properly for them to address. And unlike the Federal system, we have the ability to vote out judges in the State system who take that attitude. The more people who are aware of this travesty (the judge's ruling) the more likely they are to ensure it does not happen in their community.

Judge Keel has only been a judge for less than a year (and he was appointed, not elected). Maybe that explains his ignorance of the precedent.

<small>[ November 18, 2003, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: TXMike ]</small>

[PPHSfan]

TXMIKE,

Are you ready to give us the name of the precedent? Or are you just coming on here and wanting us to believe it because you said it? Did you actually read this precedent, or did you just read that it existed on some bulletin board? Surely a man of your stature would not come on here and just spread the banter. You did actually read this precedent and you are ready to provide us with a link so we can read it as well, right Mike?

[sinton66]

Personally, IF the Texas Supreme Court sides with the UIL on this and issues a no action order to the lower courts, maybe it's time we reviewed THEIR tenure. No public entity should ever be above the law, particularly one so influential over public schools. There MUST be an avenue for redress.

[TXMike]

PPHSfan:
TXMIKE,

Are you ready to give us the name of the precedent? Or are you just coming on here and wanting us to believe it because you said it? Did you actually read this precedent, or did you just read that it existed on some bulletin board? Surely a man of your stature would not come on here and just spread the banter. You did actually read this precedent and you are ready to provide us with a link so we can read it as well, right Mike?Last year there was a great controversy around the Texas Academic Decathalon. Lubbock High won but Pasadena Dobie sued and got an order from a District Judge overturning the results. Lubbock High took it to the Supreme Court and Supreme Court overruled the District judge, and referred to previous rulings involving UIL baseball teams that said judges should stay out of conflicts involving extracurricular high school activities.

From the Corpus Christi Caller-Times newspaper:
"The high court reaffirmed a 1980s decision in which it ruled that "individual student athletes do not have a fundamental constitutional right to participate in extracurricular sports."

"In effect, the court also reaffirmed the UIL's responsibility to govern and review athletic conduct issues. "

[PPHSfan]

I guess I am stupid, I don't see the precedent. A precedent would have a name ie: PPHSfan v. TXMIKE, where is it Mike? Surely you did not come on here and give such a strong position without reading the precedent did you? Just answer the question MIKE.

[Fletch]

PPHS, Coming from a poster who refuses to comment on the right or wrong of PP's actions, your questions is hypocritical.

I'll ask my question again, should he be playing?

Just answer the question PP!

[TXMike]

PPHSfan:
I guess I am stupid, I don't see the precedent. A precedent would have a name ie: PPHSfan v. TXMIKE, where is it Mike? Surely you did not come on here and give such a strong position without reading the precedent did you? Just answer the question MIKE.I did not realize you were a lawyer and seem to know so much about how a precedent is styled. Here ya go pal:

High School Playoffs and the Law?
In re Univ. Interscholastic League, 20 S.W.3d 690,
43 Tex. Sup. Ct. J. 788 (May 25, 2000).

The UIL determined that Robstown H.S. must
forfeit all games played with an ineligible player. The decision dropped Robstown out of the State baseball tournament. The district court ordered the UIL to schedule a playoff game between Robstown and Roma, held the UIL in contempt for not doing so, and declared
Robstown the winner of the unplayed game.
The Court conditionally granted mandamus to
vacate the orders. The UIL’s rules supported the
forfeiture of the games, there is no fundamental right to participate in extracurricular activities. "[J]udicial intervention in matters such as these, often does more harm than good." Because the State tournament was in progress, the UIL had no adequate remedy at law.

[JasperDog94]

Busted by TXMike...duh-duh duh duh duh, another one bites the dust... :D :D :D

[PPHSfan]

I am sorry, I still don't read where that says anything about the Suprememe Court telling the lower courts to.....


"the State Supreme Court has precedent telling District Courts to stay out of the UIL's affairs."

[duckbutter]

In order for a case to reach the supreme court it must first go through the lower courts. Makes no sense that the supreme court would tell the lower courts (district) to stay out of the UIL affairs.

[Fletch]

Get your head out of the sand and it becomes clear. wink

[PPHSfan]

The only thing that is clear to me is that TXMIKE had to spend the past hour grasping at straws to find some kind of newspaper article online in order to save face in the fact that he had typed something here without first doing the research.

Furthermore, the spin he puts on the "newspaper article" that he cut and pasted in this forum does not even provide a link where inquiring minds can go and read the "whole" story.

This story that he is using as "precedent" is about a judge that ruled a baseball team to advance in the playoffs that never even played the game. It is a story of how one judge held the UIL in contempt for NOT following his orders while all the while another Judge got into a pissing contest with him and ruled another way. That is when the Supremem court stepped in and had to make a decision, but in no place in the decision did it order the lower courts to stay out of the UIL's decisions.

Unfortunatley, folks like TXMIKE don't want you to hear the whole story, just the part that backs up their BANTER about something that they really know nothing about.

<small>[ November 18, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: PPHSfan ]</small>

[Quinlan ford fan]

Wow this thing has really took off.....I did not intend to start a war I was just wondering if anybody had heard anything....It is a fact that the Quinlan Ford Football team is practicing this week and preparing to play Atlanta in Greenville, but I cannot get anybody to say why, so all I can assume is the hearing date either got moved up...... Pilot point fans I apologize if this is a sore issue with you guys but really if the U.I.L. Rules on a issue shouldnt that be the end of it, they are the governing body for High school sports in Texas are they not?. And as I understand it Celina is the school that said he moved to Pilot Point for athletic purposes only when they filled out his previous Athletic participation form, and every school in Pilot Points district voted him ineligible.....Are all of these schools along with the U.I.L wrong? are perhaps they are right!

[westcoast54]

The UIL ruling would be enough for almost all schools. But of course Pilot Point has GA Moore, and he thinks he is bigger than the UIL and what he says goes. I hope this story is true.

[JasperDog94]

PPHSfan, normally I agree with you, but I think your "home town" bias is showing here. You challenged TXMike to find an article. When he did, you accused him of "grasping at straws". All he did was what you challenged him to do.

When you study the U.S. Supreme Court decisions, the rulings usually set precedents for all the other courts to follow. Sometimes a lower court decides to stretch those boundaries and make their own ruling anyway. That sounds like the case here. Does that justify the lawsuit? I don't know. I sure wish that in a case like this, they could exercise our right to "a speedy trial".

If PP happens to go on to win state, what happens to all the other teams that they beat? Don't they deserve a shot at state championship? Doesn't sound very fair to them. :(

UIL is and should be the governing body. If you don't like it, tough. Everyone else seems to think what the kid did was wrong except Moore and PP fans. The real losers here are all the other kids on the field that may have their season wiped clean due to one kid and his selfishness.

Just my .02 cents.

[Quinlan ford fan]

Thanks for the article TXMIKE...it kinda shut pphsfan and sinton up....Thanks Again.

[PPHSfan]

Quinlan ford fan:
Thanks for the article TXMIKE...it kinda shut pphsfan and sinton up....Thanks Again.ROFL

[PPHSfan]

JasperDog94:
PPHSfan, normally I agree with you, but I think your "home town" bias is showing here. You challenged TXMike to find an article. When he did, you accused him of "grasping at straws". All he did was what you challenged him to do.Actually, what I did was asked him if he had read the precedent before he made his post. And then he went and searched for a newspaper article to back up his Banter. I stand firm in saying that he did NOT read the precedent, nor can he recite the precedent, because he has never even seen it.

[PPHSfan]

.....Everyone else seems to think what the kid did was wrong except Moore and PP fans. ....Actually this argument does not hold water, because the only ones that have anything to say about this are the ones that don't know anything about the story. Most folks that don't think this kid did anything wrong, would rather just stay out of the Childish Name Calling Game that goes on with this topic, therefore it only appears that "Everyone else seems to think what the kid did was wrong except Moore and PP fans. "

[Fletch]

PP, what you are doing is throwing up a smokescreen to avoid addressing the real issue, which you keep dodging. The kid is playing because of a court scheduling issue, not because he has any legal right to.

Other schools abiding by the UIL's rules are suffering because of it.

All your bluster won't refute that.

<small>[ November 18, 2003, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Fletch ]</small>

[Phil C]

HOW ABOUT THEM SPURS WINNING THE 2003 NBA CHAMPIONSHIP BY BEATING THE NETS! BEST NBA SERIES WE EVER HAD!

[PPHSfan]

If the Supreme Court wanted to step in and rule here they could do so this afternoon. That is what they did in the case that TXMIKE is trying to find. I am not trying to skate around anything. My problem all along has been, and still remains, that this is not the venue for this discussion. You yourself just typed the name of a Minor Child in your last post and more or less accused him of cheating. Shame on you.

[slpybear the bullfan]

Phil C:
HOW ABOUT THEM SPURS WINNING THE 2003 NBA CHAMPIONSHIP BY BEATING THE NETS! BEST NBA SERIES WE EVER HAD!ROFL!

[Quinlan ford fan]

The fact of the matter is the district 9-3a committee ruled the kid ineligible then the U.I.L. ruled the kid ineligible not once but twice and if you think you are anybody else has any more information about this case than the U.I.L. then you really do have a brain ON LOAN, but not from G_D.......I ask you again are they all wrong?

[crzyjournalist03]

Quinlan ford fan:
then you really do have a brain ON LOAN, but not from G_D.......I ask you again are they all wrong?since when do we have to edit the word "God"???

[Rabbit'93]

PPHSfan his name is in the papers. And yes he as well as PPHS are accused of cheating.

[TXMike]

PP - I am from S Texas so I knew about the Robstown mess. I suspect you may not have heard of it since you are so far away. I did not know all the exact legal mumbo jumbo that was associated with it so had to find it. But I knew it was there. I also know, as someone who follows the UIL closely, that this issue has come up before and the UIL has always won.

I realize you are not a lawyer but most reasonable people, even if they are not lawyers, can read between the lines of the Robstown decision and see what the Supreme Court was saying in that matter.

I am sure there are many other resources out there on the net which can provide clarification on this matter for you. In fact, if the Texas Supreme Court's website was functional, you could likely do a search on there and find all sorts of things you do not want to see.

The kid is going to be allowed to play and when all is said and done, the District judge is going to have egg on his face, and there may be football players in many places around the state who will be wondering what might have been if everyone had played according to the rules. And maybe it will go to the Supreme Court so they can once again make clear that they are not going to permit the Courts to be used in this manner.

[CatsDen]

I am not familiar with this case or situation, but I think it's a shame to not have this resolved by now. It's ridiculous to have (if I understand this correctly) two teams practicing for one opponent. I agree that if the UIL has ruled him ineligible, then that should be sufficient.

[blue4ever]

THis is a new one on me, personally I don't think it matters who plays Atlanta this week, it will be their last week of football. They could probably mix players from both schools and let them play the Rabbits and they would still win.

[Quinlan ford fan]

It has got to be hard for a team like Atlanta....right now they are trying to prepare to play Pilot Point and Quinlan Ford, and we are not similar and probably not finding out for sure until late Thursday evening who it is going to be, what a mess.....I agree the U.I.L. Ruling should be the final say......and in the end it will be.

[duckbutter]

But what makes the UIL so all mighty powerful. Just because they make a decision doesn't mean that they are right. For the school or the parents to take this to the next level tells me that the UIL may not be right in this situation and the school or parents are using thier right to have it heard at a higher level be it district court or the supreme court. I don't know enough about this particular event to make a decision but I really don't like the fact that some people think that what the UIL hands down is law because it's not.

[TXMike]

The courts should not be used to redress every little grievance folks have. That is one of the reasons for having bodies like the UIL which has its own internal due process systems. The bottom line here is does the kid have a "right" to participate in extracurricular activities for a certain school. If you are one who believes this is a "right", then you likely support the court's involvement. But is you do not see this as a "right" then you do not.

If you want to abolish the UIL and just let things "run themselves", fine. Do it. But then don't come crying about all the "unfairness" that is going to start.

If the UIL had a rule that said you could play wherever where you went to school, without consideration of where you played the previous year, why you were in a different school, etc, then this would nto be an issue. Would you like to see that as a rule?

[Quinlan ford fan]

Every school that is a participant in U.I.L. ACTIVITIES AGREES TO allow them to be the governing body over these types of issues and most abide by them except when it doesnt suit them then they take it to court....in every case the U.I.L. has won... if your school doesnt like the U.I.L then they can always go play private schools....some authority has to have control and it is not the courts....Ultimately the U.I.L. will win this case and it looks like it will be this Thursday are possibly Friday afternoon.

[sahen]

yah....this dont look good for Pilot Point....i remember in '98 this happened to Katy in 5a and they had just won the state semi-final game...they ended up having to forfeit the game and the player that was deemed inelgible didnt even play...he was just on teh roster for the game....just thought people might want an example on this type of situation...

[3ahunter2k4]

kaorder1999:
if tghats the case...it will have to go through the UIL and that could take weeks...maybe months..so Quinlan Ford shouldnt be practicing cause i dont think there is any way that anything would be done before fridayno it doesn't, it takes days. see katy tigers circa 1997

[Chief Woodman]

PPHSfan:

.....Everyone else seems to think what the kid did was wrong except Moore and PP fans. ....Actually this argument does not hold water, because the only ones that have anything to say about this are the ones that don't know anything about the story. Most folks that don't think this kid did anything wrong, would rather just stay out of the Childish Name Calling Game that goes on with this topic, therefore it only appears that "Everyone else seems to think what the kid did was wrong except Moore and PP fans. "The most folks you are refering to are probably from PP...and do not know the facts themselves. There was another post this summer that celinaorange detailed what took place....I will find it and TTT so you and everyone can see it. When his post is read, it does APPEAR that rules were violated. When the district committe held a hearing DID hear the evidence ruled he did break the rules. What else do you need than that jury's findings? Thw title of the article I am refering to is "pilot Point player ineligible.

[PPHSfan]

So now celinaorange is the authority on what really happened? Have you read my thread, the Legend of the Beaten Bull Hauler? Give me a break.

[Keith7]

You know what, CJ Hatten is not a big part of Pilot Point's team, and Pilot Point would have prolly made it to the playoffs with out him, but the fact that GA Moore thinks he is above the UIL and District 9-3A and would play him any way is not fare to the Pilot Point football team, or any team kept out of the playoffs because of this incident.. why punish so many kids just to let a below average player play?? Just so GA Moore can show how many people kiss his butt??
Thats all i have to say.. see yall around

[Chief Woodman]

duckbutter:
But what makes the UIL so all mighty powerful. Just because they make a decision doesn't mean that they are right. For the school or the parents to take this to the next level tells me that the UIL may not be right in this situation and the school or parents are using thier right to have it heard at a higher level be it district court or the supreme court. I don't know enough about this particular event to make a decision but I really don't like the fact that some people think that what the UIL hands down is law because it's not.What make them powerful is that participating schools agree to let them be, and agree to abide by their decisions. No school has to be in the UIL, but you cannot compete in the extra curricular activities playoffs it governs if you do not. If you do not like their rules, join the private school league. But you will find they have rules as a precondition for participating also.

<small>[ November 18, 2003, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Chief Woodman ]</small>

[sinton66]

YAWN!!!

[crzyjournalist03]

here's an idea guys...until further notice, Pilot Point IS playing this week...if something changes, we'll have something to talk about then...but for now, let's stop arguing about something that's in reality so silly and let's drop this subject.

[Quinlan ford fan]

I dont think there is anything silly about a team that snubs there nose up to the rules that every other High School team abides by....

[Chief Woodman]

sinton66:
YAWN!!!Hey! Thats my line...LOL

[PPHSfan]

I wonder how Big this story would be if a kid was accused of transfering for athletic purposes from FW Carter Riverside, to FW Diamond Hill Jarvis?

[Fletch]

It CERTAINLY wouldn't be as much FUN! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Chief Woodman]

PPHSfan:
I wonder how Big this story would be if a kid was accused of transfering for athletic purposes from FW Carter Riverside, to FW Diamond Hill Jarvis?It woulld not be a story because they are not in the playoffs, and since they beat no one, there is no game to forfit. Since this does affect the playoffs it does some amount of newsworthiness.

[Hupernikomen]

TXMike:

sinton66:
Ok, once and for all, there IS a court order in place. The UIL isn't ABOVE the law. They are not autonomous, and were never intended to be. I have no problem with people seeking legal redress if they feel wronged. I'm just saying since it's in the hands of the law, no one else can do anything about it, so why keep bringing it up? It's stupid and pointless.While there may be little that can be done about this specific situation, it does serve to point out to folks that we still have some judges in Texas who believe they should interfere in matters that are not properly for them to address. And unlike the Federal system, we have the ability to vote out judges in the State system who take that attitude. The more people who are aware of this travesty (the judge's ruling) the more likely they are to ensure it does not happen in their community.

Judge Keel has only been a judge for less than a year (and he was appointed, not elected). Maybe that explains his ignorance of the precedent.I have a hard time thinking this judge made a mindless decision. You don't get to that post by being ignorant of anything. Not to say that judges never make stupid decision..i.e. supreme court of alabama.

[TXMike]

Hupernikomen:

TXMike:

sinton66:
Ok, once and for all, there IS a court order in place. The UIL isn't ABOVE the law. They are not autonomous, and were never intended to be. I have no problem with people seeking legal redress if they feel wronged. I'm just saying since it's in the hands of the law, no one else can do anything about it, so why keep bringing it up? It's stupid and pointless.While there may be little that can be done about this specific situation, it does serve to point out to folks that we still have some judges in Texas who believe they should interfere in matters that are not properly for them to address. And unlike the Federal system, we have the ability to vote out judges in the State system who take that attitude. The more people who are aware of this travesty (the judge's ruling) the more likely they are to ensure it does not happen in their community.

Judge Keel has only been a judge for less than a year (and he was appointed, not elected). Maybe that explains his ignorance of the precedent.I have a hard time thinking this judge made a mindless decision. You don't get to that post by being ignorant of anything. Not to say that judges never make stupid decision..i.e. supreme court of alabama.You don't know much about Texas politics (or courts) do you? He got appointed to the position by Gov Perry. Do a little research and you are going to find several reasons for his appointment, none of which have anything to do with his qualifications to be a judge.