Let's hear it for tradition!

[DOGFAN]

Ive seen people saying tradition can't affect the outcome of a game. In particular I remember a quote from a Decatur fan, saying the only thing tradition got Wylie against Decatur in the pre-season was a long bus-ride home. Well this ain't pre-season and now tradition has given Wylie an even longer bus-ride....all the way to Texas Stadium. I told the guy that he would probably see Wylie again, this time much improved due to the expectations of a community and their own expectations that come from seeing Wylie success as kids and yearning to be a part of it. Decatur players should hold their heads high. They didn't get to play for the State Title they were capable of, but their success of the past three years will have a lasting impression on a community and a program. I hear that Decatur has a good crop of talent coming up for a few years, and there are probably a thousand little boys that can't wait to be Eagles in the future. There could be another team with tradition in the State now, so Decatur fans should stay on the bandwagon.

[wildstangs]

Tradition is great to have on your side. Decatur fans doubt it, but look at who has knocked them out of the playoffs the last 3 years. Tradition rich teams: Sweetwater, Vernon, Wylie.

[Chief Woodman]

I think this weeks games show to any honest person that tradition does not matter. Snyder has tons more tradition than Gilmer, but got soundly beaten. Cuero has more of what some folks consider tradition than Wylie (More State rings, more trips to the final game) but Wylie won. If tradition really meant that much to the outcome of a game then Snyder would still be playing and Cuero would be the D-1 champs.

I have thought about this quite a bit and have concluded that it may be a difference in really knowing what tradition is and what it is not. PLEASE, before you get upset and set out to prove me wrong, make sure your support of tradition holds true elsewhere. For example, it could be argued that Decatur has more tradition than any team in 3-A. They are 1/2 of the longest running rival game in 3-A (Decatur VS Bridgeport has been played 90 times. More than any other rivalry game in the State, 3-A football.) They are not the best team in 3-A history, nor do they have more titles than anyone else. But those two items are measures of coaching, talent and luck; they are NOT a measure of tradition.

May I suggest that success any time in the past does not mean you have tradition. It does mean that you at sometime in the past had good talent, coaching and luck. Sometimes people mistakenly confuse "tradition" with one of these three important things- current coaching, talent, and luck. Most of Wylies "tradition" actually centers around the coaching talent. That has nothing to do with tradition, but rather the talent you have in a coaching staff. Tradition is always touching a "play like champions" sign before each game. Or always holding a pep rally. Or kissing your girlfriend after a touchdown. Those are examples of tradition, and NONE of them wins games.


What does win the ring is current talent, coaching and luck. You have to have ALL three to win it all. The two games I mention from this week I believe support my position in this matter.

[3afan]

Originally posted by Chief Woodman
Snyder has tons more tradition than Gilmer

how so ???

gilmer has 23 playoff appearances all time, snyder 17

how do you judge who has more tradition ???

[HornetMom]

Originally posted by Chief Woodman
I think this weeks games show to any honest person that tradition does not matter. Snyder has tons more tradition than Gilmer, but got soundly beaten. Cuero has more of what some folks consider tradition than Wylie (More State rings, more trips to the final game) but Wylie won. If tradition really meant that much to the outcome of a game then Snyder would still be playing and Cuero would be the D-1 champs.

I have thought about this quite a bit and have concluded that it may be a difference in really knowing what tradition is and what it is not. PLEASE, before you get upset and set out to prove me wrong, make sure your support of tradition holds true elsewhere. For example, it could be argued that Decatur has more tradition than any team in 3-A. They are 1/2 of the longest running rival game in 3-A (Decatur VS Bridgeport has been played 90 times. More than any other rivalry game in the State, 3-A football.) They are not the best team in 3-A history, nor do they have more titles than anyone else. But those two items are measures of coaching, talent and luck; they are NOT a measure of tradition.

May I suggest that success any time in the past does not mean you have tradition. It does mean that you at sometime in the past had good talent, coaching and luck. Sometimes people mistakenly confuse "tradition" with one of these three important things- current coaching, talent, and luck. Most of Wylies "tradition" actually centers around the coaching talent. That has nothing to do with tradition, but rather the talent you have in a coaching staff. Tradition is always touching a "play like champions" sign before each game. Or always holding a pep rally. Or kissing your girlfriend after a touchdown. Those are examples of tradition, and NONE of them wins games.


What does win the ring is current talent, coaching and luck. You have to have ALL three to win it all. The two games I mention from this week I believe support my position in this matter.

Nicely put. :clap: :clap: :clap:

[89Dawg]

I believe tradition is what can drive a school to go after good coaching talent and make them look a little longer, and little harder than the next school. I believe that tradition can affect heart, and heart can help someone come up with a little more than the next guy.

But that is just my opion. And you know about opions, they are like something else, Everyone has one.

[44INAROW]

Here's my tradition........ GO MEAN GREEN :)

[gobbler grad]

I 2nd that... and we'll see you in the playoffs next year...

GO MEAN GREEN:kiss:

[Chief Woodman]

Originally posted by 3afan
how so ???

gilmer has 23 playoff appearances all time, snyder 17

how do you judge who has more tradition ??? \

Thanks for helping make my point- everyone can say they have more tradition if they only look at one set of issues. In Decaturs case it is how many rival games they have played. In Gilmers case it is number of playoff apearances. For Snyder it is some thing else. But none of these wins games. What won your game this last weekend was a better combination of Coaching, talent and luck than Snyder had that night.

[3afan]

hehe, it wasnt MY game this last weekend - i've never been to Gilmer!

was just wondering what the reasoning was behind the "Snyder has tons more tradition than Gilmer" comment! surely that didnt come out of the blue ....

i think its safe to say most teams have tradition, just some "better" (more successful?) than others .....

[VWG]

Dadgumit! Y'all made me go get my dang dictionary...

Tradition- 1. The handing down of knowledge, beliefs, customs, or the like from one generation to another. 2. The knowledge, beliefs, customs or the like handed down in this way: "Tradition says the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock."

My take... winning breeds winners. There are schools out there that year after year they are in the playoffs, and have winning traditions. There are some schools that have great tradition in sports such as football, basketball, volleyball.....etc...
What keeps these streaks alive? What keeps those kids motivated to win, to excel at those sports? Is it always the coaching staff? Is it the history of winning or being successful in those sports that keep that burning drive to succeed alive?

[forebevo]

Chief Woodman

Well said. You named several schools and I was wondering how you were able to gain such intimate knowledge of all these schools.

[DOGFAN]

Originally posted by VWG
Dadgumit! Y'all made me go get my dang dictionary...

Tradition- 1. The handing down of knowledge, beliefs, customs, or the like from one generation to another. 2. The knowledge, beliefs, customs or the like handed down in this way: "Tradition says the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock."

My take... winning breeds winners. There are schools out there that year after year they are in the playoffs, and have winning traditions. There are some schools that have great tradition in sports such as football, basketball, volleyball.....etc...
What keeps these streaks alive? What keeps those kids motivated to win, to excel at those sports? Is it always the coaching staff? Is it the history of winning or being successful in those sports that keep that burning drive to succeed alive?

Well said. I honestly think Wylie kids beat people they shouldn't sometimes because they have seen their big brothers and cousins do it many times before. Tradition breeds confidence and confidence brings success.

[wildstangs]

Up until the last few years, Snyder didn't have a whole lot of success in the playoffs. This was the farthest they have ever advanced, and last year was the first time they had advanced to round three in many decades.

Tradition doesn't win all the time, but it sure doesnt hurt to have it on your side.

[forebevo]

Originally posted by Chief Woodman
\

Thanks for helping make my point- everyone can say they have more tradition if they only look at one set of issues. In Decaturs case it is how many rival games they have played. In Gilmers case it is number of playoff apearances. For Snyder it is some thing else. But none of these wins games. What won your game this last weekend was a better combination of Coaching, talent and luck than Snyder had that night.

DEAD ON BALLS ACCURATE !!!

[slpybear the bullfan]

Good Posts Chief.

I cannot stand to hear posters rave on about "Our School has more tradition than anyone in Texas..." etc.

You said it Chief, what wins championships is good coaching, a good pool of talent that turns out for those coaches, and LOTS OF LUCK.

[3afan]

i'm right there with ya - thats why i originally asked how "synder has tons more tradition than gilmer." ...

[jlwzz]

Originally posted by Chief Woodman
I think this weeks games show to any honest person that tradition does not matter. Snyder has tons more tradition than Gilmer, but got soundly beaten. Cuero has more of what some folks consider tradition than Wylie (More State rings, more trips to the final game) but Wylie won. If tradition really meant that much to the outcome of a game then Snyder would still be playing and Cuero would be the D-1 champs.

I have thought about this quite a bit and have concluded that it may be a difference in really knowing what tradition is and what it is not. PLEASE, before you get upset and set out to prove me wrong, make sure your support of tradition holds true elsewhere. For example, it could be argued that Decatur has more tradition than any team in 3-A. They are 1/2 of the longest running rival game in 3-A (Decatur VS Bridgeport has been played 90 times. More than any other rivalry game in the State, 3-A football.) They are not the best team in 3-A history, nor do they have more titles than anyone else. But those two items are measures of coaching, talent and luck; they are NOT a measure of tradition.

May I suggest that success any time in the past does not mean you have tradition. It does mean that you at sometime in the past had good talent, coaching and luck. Sometimes people mistakenly confuse "tradition" with one of these three important things- current coaching, talent, and luck. Most of Wylies "tradition" actually centers around the coaching talent. That has nothing to do with tradition, but rather the talent you have in a coaching staff. Tradition is always touching a "play like champions" sign before each game. Or always holding a pep rally. Or kissing your girlfriend after a touchdown. Those are examples of tradition, and NONE of them wins games.


What does win the ring is current talent, coaching and luck. You have to have ALL three to win it all. The two games I mention from this week I believe support my position in this matter.

Well said Chief

I was there and both teams had a chance to win that game, I dont think that Tradition wins, its the kids with the most heart that night.

If Tradition wins where was MOJO this year i dont think Tradition takes a year off.

Congradulations to Both teams it was a great game to see.

[3afan]

realistically, on Sat night, Snyder had no chance to win that game IMO ... if they played 10 times, gilmer would win 10 times ... they were that much better

again, IMO

[jason]

Originally posted by jlwzz


I dont think that Tradition wins, its the kids with the most heart that night.

talent wins over heart 99.99999999% of the time

[crabman]

What most people call tradition is really just getting into a habit of winning. Once you get used to winning, it causes your decisions to be dictated by it. You will get rid of a 6-5 coach because that is not acceptable. That lends credence to the Coaching aspect. Tradition gets out 80 kids for 7th grade football. That gets you more kids to look at for talent. That lends credence to the talent part of the equation. When you keep those numbers through the 8th, 9th and JV years, statistically the outcomes eventually come around in your favor. This is what some call luck.

I would say he nailed it pretty well.

[Chief Woodman]

Originally posted by jason
talent wins over heart 99.99999999% of the time

True. When someone says the other team wanted it more most of the the time it is just a saying. Nobody wanted a ring more that Burnet last year. The top two players even refused to date during the season so that there would not be a distraction. Yet a talented Gainsville team with good coaching and a little luck sent Burnet home without the ring.

I think I can safely asume that Cuero was not short on heart. Just was not meant to be.

Good coaching, talent and some luck. Take any one of the three out and you will not win a State title.

Don't need coaching? Let your local hair dresser have a go at it next year. The losses will pile up. She still has the tradition if she went to school there.

Don't need talent? If ya make the playoffs next year let your freshman team play the entire first two games. You will be at home. They also have the tradition but it will not help.

Don't need luck? Anyone who has watched this game for long can tell you that without it better teams sometimes lose. Houston beat Pittsburg in the AFC championship one year, but the Steelers advanced to the Super Bowl because the REF said that Renfro's catch was out of the end zone. Replays showed that he did make the catch and that Houston won, but Pittsburg had the luck. Pittsburg won the Super Bowl over Dallas that year, when it should have been an all Texas Super Bowl.

[Chief Woodman]

Originally posted by crabman
What most people call tradition is really just getting into a habit of winning. Once you get used to winning, it causes your decisions to be dictated by it. You will get rid of a 6-5 coach because that is not acceptable. That lends credence to the Coaching aspect. Tradition gets out 80 kids for 7th grade football. That gets you more kids to look at for talent. That lends credence to the talent part of the equation. When you keep those numbers through the 8th, 9th and JV years, statistically the outcomes eventually come around in your favor. This is what some call luck.

I would say he nailed it pretty well.

You can have all 100% of your student body go out for football. If the fastest has to be timed wirh a sundial in the 40 yard dash you wont win many games. Winning does not get everybody to come out for football. Ask Cuero. Even if it did, you can only play 11 at a time. By the Decatur has a ton of kids out for football. Yet they are still without that ring.

Also the "Habit" of winning comes from good coaching and good talent. Let Coach Sandifer coach the cheerleaders and things won't work out so well even with the "Habit".

[vet93]

We have had this argument before Chief and we can remain friends and disagree. On an individual game tradition means very little with the small exception possibly being big game experience (but that is not that big of a deal when compared to talent, coaching and the character of the team). Where tradition matters is over the long term. There are schools that year in and year out just win. If tradition means nothing, then all teams would statistically hover around .500 after you have played several hundred games. Tradition affects a number of facets of a team. 1) You get more participation 2) You get more intensity passed down from year to year. The kids pick up this emphasis on winning from older players, alumni, townspeople etc....It gives the kids a singlness of purpose that not every school has 3) A greater emphasis is placed on getting only the best coaches....and if they don't perform then they are gone and replaced by someone else (now you may say that this makes your point about coaching but in reality part of a winning tradition is coaching excellence) 4) On the long-term average kids from schools with solid winning traditions tend to work harder. This is not to say that a good class of kids can't come through and work hard or a good coaching staff can't come through and get alot out of the kids. What I am saying is that the intensity and community emphasis that was mentioned before causes the kids to work harder because they don't want to be the group that underperforms at a tradition rich school. 5) Kids from tradition rich program tend to have better facilities on average. The community emphasis on winning in a particular sport drives the construction of good facilities. I could go on and on but the overall point is that OVER THE LONG HAUL tradition supercharges the program to perform at a higher level. I will give my hometown as an example of tradition (granted, this makes me biased but I think my points are valid). I am from Ballinger and we are ranked 33rd in the state in winning percentage(for all classes). In addition we rank somewhere in the top 15 or so in total program wins (560 something I believe). We also rank in the top 5 in 2a in total playoff appearences. However, it has been my observance that the talent pool is average at best. In the past 25 years we have had exactly 2 DI scholarship athletes. Why does Ballinger win...talent? (maybe a little), good coaching? (probably), but the over riding reason for the winning year in and year out since the 1920's is TRADITION. If you ask the kids from Abilene Wylie who has been their most difficult district opponent over the past 15 year....they would say Ballinger without question. Why?....we had one of the smallest enrollments in 3a. We are not close enough to a larger city to draw kids out of the urban setting. Most people would concede that Clyde, Brady, and Merkel have better athletes year in and year out...so why was Ballinger better. If you can give me a better reason than tradition for this LONG TERM success, then I may start to believe you, but to date you haven't convinced me;) I really wish that we somehow had better talent than the surrounding communities.....it sure would make me feel better about the future success of our team...but I just don't see bunches of talent oozing off of the streets of good old Ballinger. My hometown is not much different from many others who tout a tradition rich school....I just used Ballinger as an example because I am most familiar with the statistics. Now....hammer away!!!!!


Originally posted by Chief Woodman
I think this weeks games show to any honest person that tradition does not matter. Snyder has tons more tradition than Gilmer, but got soundly beaten. Cuero has more of what some folks consider tradition than Wylie (More State rings, more trips to the final game) but Wylie won. If tradition really meant that much to the outcome of a game then Snyder would still be playing and Cuero would be the D-1 champs.

I have thought about this quite a bit and have concluded that it may be a difference in really knowing what tradition is and what it is not. PLEASE, before you get upset and set out to prove me wrong, make sure your support of tradition holds true elsewhere. For example, it could be argued that Decatur has more tradition than any team in 3-A. They are 1/2 of the longest running rival game in 3-A (Decatur VS Bridgeport has been played 90 times. More than any other rivalry game in the State, 3-A football.) They are not the best team in 3-A history, nor do they have more titles than anyone else. But those two items are measures of coaching, talent and luck; they are NOT a measure of tradition.

May I suggest that success any time in the past does not mean you have tradition. It does mean that you at sometime in the past had good talent, coaching and luck. Sometimes people mistakenly confuse "tradition" with one of these three important things- current coaching, talent, and luck. Most of Wylies "tradition" actually centers around the coaching talent. That has nothing to do with tradition, but rather the talent you have in a coaching staff. Tradition is always touching a "play like champions" sign before each game. Or always holding a pep rally. Or kissing your girlfriend after a touchdown. Those are examples of tradition, and NONE of them wins games.


What does win the ring is current talent, coaching and luck. You have to have ALL three to win it all. The two games I mention from this week I believe support my position in this matter.

[Whsdogs]

Originally posted by vet93
We have had this argument before Chief and we can remain friends and disagree. On an individual game tradition means very little with the small exception possibly being big game experience (but that is not that big of a deal when compared to talent, coaching and the character of the team). Where tradition matters is over the long term. There are schools that year in and year out just win. If tradition means nothing, then all teams would statistically hover around .500 after you have played several hundred games. Tradition affects a number of facets of a team. 1) You get more participation 2) You get more intensity passed down from year to year. The kids pick up this emphasis on winning from older players, alumni, townspeople etc....It gives the kids a singlness of purpose that not every school has 3) A greater emphasis is placed on getting only the best coaches....and if they don't perform then they are gone and replaced by someone else (now you may say that this makes your point about coaching but in reality part of a winning tradition is coaching excellence) 4) On the long-term average kids from schools with solid winning traditions tend to work harder. This is not to say that a good class of kids can't come through and work hard or a good coaching staff can't come through and get alot out of the kids. What I am saying is that the intensity and community emphasis that was mentioned before causes the kids to work harder because they don't want to be the group that underperforms at a tradition rich school. 5) Kids from tradition rich program tend to have better facilities on average. The community emphasis on winning in a particular sport drives the construction of good facilities. I could go on and on but the overall point is that OVER THE LONG HAUL tradition supercharges the program to perform at a higher level. I will give my hometown as an example of tradition (granted, this makes me biased but I think my points are valid). I am from Ballinger and we are ranked 33rd in the state in winning percentage(for all classes). In addition we rank somewhere in the top 15 or so in total program wins (560 something I believe). We also rank in the top 5 in 2a in total playoff appearences. However, it has been my observance that the talent pool is average at best. In the past 25 years we have had exactly 2 DI scholarship athletes. Why does Ballinger win...talent? (maybe a little), good coaching? (probably), but the over riding reason for the winning year in and year out since the 1920's is TRADITION. If you ask the kids from Abilene Wylie who has been their most difficult district opponent over the past 15 year....they would say Ballinger without question. Why?....we had one of the smallest enrollments in 3a. We are not close enough to a larger city to draw kids out of the urban setting. Most people would concede that Clyde, Brady, and Merkel have better athletes year in and year out...so why was Ballinger better. If you can give me a better reason than tradition for this LONG TERM success, then I may start to believe you, but to date you haven't convinced me;) I really wish that we somehow had better talent than the surrounding communities.....it sure would make me feel better about the future success of our team...but I just don't see bunches of talent oozing off of the streets of good old Ballinger. My hometown is not much different from many others who tout a tradition rich school....I just used Ballinger as an example because I am most familiar with the statistics. Now....hammer away!!!!!
now that hits the nail on the head, very well said and great point i personally agree with tradition does have somethin to do with a succesful football program. Just was to lazy to type that much lol:p

[easttexan1]

Vet.
We have a winning tradition in Jasper, but your spending money on facilities doesn't hold water here, I am afraid. We play in a 70 year old stadium. We won state 4a track several years in both girls and boys, and set the national relay record without a track. Had to travel 22 miles just to get practice on a track. Won state powerlifting for years in possibly the smallest weight room in 4a. But, you know, when your father, 2 uncles, 3 cousins and the guy next door have all been to quarterfinals, it has to make a difference. Not alot, but some. Doesn't carry forever obviously, or PNG and Bridge City would have won every year since the 60's. Makes good talk on the forum though, huh.

[Keith7]

I remember back when i played during a play i never thought "wow i'm faster (or stronger) because Gainesville has been to the playoffs 27 times and three state finals" because tradition doesnt make a team better.. it just makes the disney movies better

[whereugo]

Originally posted by 3afan
how so ???

gilmer has 23 playoff appearances all time, snyder 17

how do you judge who has more tradition ???

Thanks - 3A - obviously Woodie only knows what's out west - East Texas has been steeped in high school football tradition for YEARS!!! Not meant to offend any West Texans - but us East Texans are just as proud - an no, I'm not from Gilmer.

[DOGFAN]

I agree with everyone that there is nothing magical about tradition. All I am saying is the traditional success of a program influences that program in a positive way. If a school whose coaching staff and athletes have never tasted any success get beat in pre-season by a more talented school like Decatur 44-7 they give up hope. If you have Hugh Sandifer and a program that traditionally peaks in the playoffs then players and fans and coaches can't wait to get back on the field with Decatur. I'm not saying Wylie wanted any game more than their opponent, I'm only saying they knew more about what it takes than some of them because they follow what has given them success in the past. Another aspect of tradition no one mentions is fans. Traditionally successful schools bring more fans, and louder fans. If you don't think thousands of adults screaming insanely for a seventeen year-old kid will fire that kid up, you don't know much.
Tradition doesn't come into play every friday night but it does some nights like when Wylie slipped by Decatur in Stephenville. Tradition led the Wylie boys to believe, the coaches prepared in their traditional way and the Wylie fans shook the house while Decatur fans sat on their hands and lost the smug looks we saw in the restaurants before the game. (I know they weren't all smug but some of the ones I talked to were sickeningly arrogant)

[easttexan1]

The one area that "tradition" helps is experience. When you play 2-5 more games per year than the bulk of your opponets, it makes a difference. When you have a team good enough to run up the score, then the younger kids get to play more which extends into the future. The problem is, when the string gets broken, you have to have a program that can tie it all back together in a year or two. Good coaching and a good developmental program, or a lot of local talent can make all the difference.

[DOGFAN]

I agree. The best off-season your JV can have is five or six more weeks of football practice with an obviously talented varsity.