Question on Illegal Substitution

[slpybear the bullfan]

Question...

12 folks on the field for the defense.... one of the players runs off the field prior to the center coming up and touching the ball.

Yellow flag comes out... we get called for illegal subtitution...

???

Can someone help me out here?

[District303aPastPlayer]

should not have happened. this penalty is an offense penalty ONLY if i am correct. If the ball was snapped then it would be illegal participation. Illegal substitution is when the offense breaks the huddle with 12, not the defense

[crabman]

You are not allowed to break your huddle with 12 men on the field regardless of where the offense is. Same on offense. ONly 11 men allowed in the huddle. This got called on Cuero tonight.

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by crabman
You are not allowed to break your huddle with 12 men on the field regardless of where the offense is. Same on offense. ONly 11 men allowed in the huddle.
reread his post, they didnt break a huddle, just had one too many on at one point.

[slpybear the bullfan]

Guys, there wasn't any huddle, the defense plays itself very similar to a no-huddle spread... all the kids are spread out in the approximate location, looking at the coaches and reading signals.

One kid went out to get another kid out, then the coach changed the call, about 5 , 10 seconds elapse as they get the other kid's attention and he runs off the field.

I thought nothing happens until the center touches the ball?

confused in Bridgeport,

slpybear

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by slpybear the bullfan
Guys, there wasn't any huddle, the defense plays itself very similar to a no-huddle spread... all the kids are spread out in the approximate location, looking at the coaches and reading signals.

One kid went out to get another kid out, then the coach changed the call, about 5 , 10 seconds elapse as they get the other kid's attention and he runs off the field.

I thought nothing happens until the center touches the ball?

confused in Bridgeport,

slpybear

i see what you are saying, im sayin this as a football officials son, that penalty is VERY questionable

[bigpimpin]

Tonight just isn't a very good night for refs. In the Cuero game not only was there that horrible lateral pass, but there were at 2 passes that I know of that were catches that were ruled incomplete, one for Cuero, one for Luling, and I think Luling had a pick that was caught

[CHS_DT#75]

bullfan.... u dont speak of any of the calls that were made against castlberry that were ridiculous.... how about when the punter punted the ball put his foot on the ground.. and then fell forward over our corner who jus dived and missed... com on now... those refs sucked for castleberry and u know it..

[Z motion 10 out on 2]

Originally posted by CHS_DT#75
bullfan.... u dont speak of any of the calls that were made against castlberry that were ridiculous.... how about when the punter punted the ball put his foot on the ground.. and then fell forward over our corner who jus dived and missed... com on now... those refs sucked for castleberry and u know it..

I think this was a specific question related to a call. Not a complaint against the refs. What is the rule? I don't know the answer.

[slpybear the bullfan]

Friend,

This thread wasn't intended to be another "Ref's Suck" thread. I have a lot of respect for Refs.... its a thankless job.

It is very hard to get out there , even at the high school level, and keep up with the game to make the right calls... it is a lot faster than you would believe.

My thread was trying to understand the rules. I don't understand the Illegal substitution penalty as it applies to a no-huddle defense.

As far as the game tonight... the refs called a pretty okay game... it looked like the normal amount of questionable calls that happens in a high school game. Do they always fall for/against you? sometimes. sometimes not.

Bridgeport made a bonehead illegal block and got in trouble for 15 yards. The Lions did the same thing a little later. It goes both ways... just sometimes it seems like you get the short end of the stick.

By the way, what did you think about the personal foul call just before half. I was sitting at the concession stand and you could clearly and plainly hear the "help" the refs were getting from the Lions fans. Wow!

Of course, we had a lady in the stands that just yelled, and yelled, and yelled, and yelled....

;) Gotta love football!!!

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by Z motion 10 out on 2
I think this was a specific question related to a call. Not a complaint against the refs. What is the rule? I don't know the answer.

the call should be no call against Bridgeport

[CHS_DT#75]

ur right about that... i was jus askin about all teh other questionable calls...

[CHS_DT#75]

it was block in teh back... it was against me... on the screen, one of the guys dived and cut me from behind... that was the personnal foul... i think there were like 3 penalties on that play... roughing hte pass, block in the back... i dunno the other.... that was crazy... they got 2 extra tries at half time....

[TXMike]

Re the illegal sub on defense...

Defense is not permitted to have 12 out there. It typically happens when a sub comes in and the replaced player does not know he is supposed to leave. When we see a defense sub come in and get in the huddle or the defensive formation, we count to 3. Does not matter if center is over the ball. All that matters is whether the play clock is running or not. If the replaced player does not leave within 3 secs then we shut it down and penalize 5 yards. If we did not do so and offense snapped while they still had 12 there and nobody trying to leave, it would be a 15 yard penalty.

This rule is helpful to offenses because it does not let the defense put multiple specialty packages in at same time and confuse the offense about who will actually be playing.

For any who care here is the actual rule. You will note that it applies to both teams, not just Team A (offense)

3-5-2-c. An incoming legal substitute must enter the field of play directly from his team area, and a substitute, player or replaced player leaving must depart at the sideline nearest his team area and proceed to his team area. A player who is replaced must immediately leave the field of play, including the end zones. A departing player who leaves the huddle orhis position within three seconds, after a substitute becomes a player, is
considered to have left immediately. Team A may not break its huddle with 12 or more players (A.R. 3-5-2-II-VIII, A.R. 9-1-4-VI-VIII and A.R. 9-2-2-IV) (dead-ball foul) [S7 and S22].

[Old Green]

Originally posted by TXMike
Re the illegal sub on defense...

Defense is not permitted to have 12 out there. It typically happens when a sub comes in and the replaced player does not know he is supposed to leave. When we see a defense sub come in and get in the huddle or the defensive formation, we count to 3. Does not matter if center is over the ball. All that matters is whether the play clock is running or not. If the replaced player does not leave within 3 secs then we shut it down and penalize 5 yards. If we did not do so and offense snapped while they still had 12 there and nobody trying to leave, it would be a 15 yard penalty.

This rule is helpful to offenses because it does not let the defense put multiple specialty packages in at same time and confuse the offense about who will actually be playing.

For any who care here is the actual rule. You will note that it applies to both teams, not just Team A (offense)

3-5-2-c. An incoming legal substitute must enter the field of play directly from his team area, and a substitute, player or replaced player leaving must depart at the sideline nearest his team area and proceed to his team area. A player who is replaced must immediately leave the field of play, including the end zones. A departing player who leaves the huddle orhis position within three seconds, after a substitute becomes a player, is
considered to have left immediately. Team A may not break its huddle with 12 or more players (A.R. 3-5-2-II-VIII, A.R. 9-1-4-VI-VIII and A.R. 9-2-2-IV) (dead-ball foul) [S7 and S22].
Thanks for clarifying the rule TXMIKE.:clap:

[Chief Woodman]

Originally posted by TXMike
Re the illegal sub on defense...

Defense is not permitted to have 12 out there. It typically happens when a sub comes in and the replaced player does not know he is supposed to leave. When we see a defense sub come in and get in the huddle or the defensive formation, we count to 3. Does not matter if center is over the ball. All that matters is whether the play clock is running or not. If the replaced player does not leave within 3 secs then we shut it down and penalize 5 yards. If we did not do so and offense snapped while they still had 12 there and nobody trying to leave, it would be a 15 yard penalty.

This rule is helpful to offenses because it does not let the defense put multiple specialty packages in at same time and confuse the offense about who will actually be playing.

For any who care here is the actual rule. You will note that it applies to both teams, not just Team A (offense)

3-5-2-c. An incoming legal substitute must enter the field of play directly from his team area, and a substitute, player or replaced player leaving must depart at the sideline nearest his team area and proceed to his team area. A player who is replaced must immediately leave the field of play, including the end zones. A departing player who leaves the huddle orhis position within three seconds, after a substitute becomes a player, is
considered to have left immediately. Team A may not break its huddle with 12 or more players (A.R. 3-5-2-II-VIII, A.R. 9-1-4-VI-VIII and A.R. 9-2-2-IV) (dead-ball foul) [S7 and S22].

This is one of the great things about this site. You can get correct information from someone who knows. Thanks mike for being here for us.

[TXMike]

The more folks who get the straight skinny the less abuse we have to take on Friday night. ;)

The game is extremely complicated when you get into the minute details of the rulebook and the way we have been told to interpret it. Add in the fact that NFL rules are significantly different and you have a recipe for confusion on the part of the fan, coach (and even the refs at times). Just trying to do my part here.

[sinton66]

You're a good man, Mike. We appreciate your contributions here. Definately helps keep all us "experts" in check.;)

[TXMike]

About 1350 more and I can get my own avatar finally.:) So keep 'em coming.

[Keith7]

What if a guy enters the huddle then procedes to stand on his head.. is that a penalty of some sort???

i think it should be cuz it would confuse me if i was on offense

[TXMike]

I thought you had already said you were removing that play from your playbook?

[Keith7]

Originally posted by TXMike
I thought you had already said you were removing that play from your playbook?

lol i'm just asking incase another team does it...

no but seriously.. i have something i've always wondered.. are the goal posts different sizes in college then in high school??? and if they are then how can high school teams play on college fields during the playoffs"???

[TXMike]

Many stadiums have dual goalposts and if they don't, they can rent a set of HS size ones for a week. The way fields are nowadays, the goal posts can be swapped out relatively easily. Course even if they don't have right size, both teams have to agree to play on the field so if one really wants the full size posts they could refuse to have the game scheduled there if no appropriate posts can be arranged.

College posts are 18'6" between uprights. UIL exception calls for 23'4" wide posts. College posts are supposed to be 30' high but UIL permits 20' high posts.

[slpybear the bullfan]

TXMike... A BIG THANK YOU for your answer to my question. That answered it perfectly!

[Keith7]

ok how about this..

players dive into the endzone all the time and as long as the ball crosses the plain (sp?) then it is a touch down.. now what if a player catches the ball in his OWN endzone and then steps out the the 1 yardline but holds the ball behind his back and keeps the ball in the "plain" of his own endzone then procedes to kneel, why is the ball down on the 1 instead of a touch back???

[Keith7]

ttt

[TXMike]

The ball should be spotted where it was at the moment the player stepped out of bounds. If ball was still beyond the plane of the goal line it should be a safety. But if we are not sure whether ball was out past the plane or not we are supposed to rule that it was. Although in your example that would not put it at the 1 but would put it just outside the goalline (1 foot line??).