Holder on extra points or field goals down?

[Phil C]

This question was asked on a prior thread last week and I couldn't find it but a friend found an answer that was asked to an experienced (SEC I think) official in 1997. It was Don Shanks and I will quote the question and answer -

"Why isn't the holder on placement kicks considered down when he receives the snap and places the ball for the kicker to kick? If his knee is down why isn't the ball declared dead at that spot?"

"This is one of the exceptions to the rule. The holder of a field goal or try may have his knee on the ground if there is a player in position for a kick. As long as the kicker is in that position, then the holder can come-up off the ground and run or pass."

So this was asked before. I assume also that the holder can lateral to the kicker to let the kicker run if they want. So it is an exception. Just like in chess you can only move one man at a time except for castling.

[kaorder1999]

i never really thought about that.....

[Doon]

Phil,
Seen this situation happen before: Ball is snapped to holder, goes through his hands and the kicker catches the ball; tosses ball back to holder, places ball and kicker kicks ball, good, extra point good.
Question: Is the ball down, because player had knee on ground?

I thought it was kind of funny at the time. Coaches had a huge argument with the refs, still don't know how the thing was good in the first place.

[Keith7]

Originally posted by Doon
Phil,
Seen this situation happen before: Ball is snapped to holder, goes through his hands and the kicker catches the ball; tosses ball back to holder, places ball and kicker kicks ball, good, extra point good.
Question: Is the ball down, because player had knee on ground?

I thought it was kind of funny at the time. Coaches had a huge argument with the refs, still don't know how the thing was good in the first place.

they had to have done that quickly or they must have had good protection from their linemen

[Doon]

Originally posted by Keith7
they had to have done that quickly or they must have had good protection from their linemen

Defensive players stopped when the ball was tossed back to the holder. Not sure why. Saw it back in the early 80's.

[Junkyard]

Another exception is that the kicker on a Kick off can not be off sides. If you watch most soccer style kickers' plant foot is past the line before they kick, but they are not offsides.

[Phil C]

Doon I guess as long is the kicker didn't move from his position then I guess the kick was good according to what Mr. Shanks answered. A wierd thing but the refs were probably right. It goes to show rush hard on every kick because something could happen in your favor.

I guess also that the refs allow soccer type kickers to be offsides on the planted foot.

[whtfbplaya]

And the center is the only person who can be in the neutral zone at the snap.

[Phil C]

Good point wht!

[Keith7]

what if the kicker is standing on his head?? then is he in a kicking position??? and would the holder be considered down??

[SintonFan_inAustin]

on kickoff does the kicker have to kick it off a tee or can he drop kick it. what if it goes thru the goal post on drop kick:confused:

[Necked]

What got me about this senario & is the reason I brought it up last week is this. Every official I've asked this question to has said the exact same thing..."its understood"...or..."its an exception to the rule", and then I say "prove it..."
They have yet to show me where in the rulebook its allowed. It just boggles my mind that something so obvious when you think about it aparently isn't addressed in the rulebook....

[3afan2K3]

I asked the owner of texashsfootball.com and he said that he wasn't down becuase he actualy doesn't have possesion of the ball....I think thats correct because all he really is doing is redirecting it to the tee the touching it with a finger.

[pavilion]

i think that maybe just maybe as a secret for all holders that maybe just maybe as a secret they dont really have their knee on the ground... this is just a hypothesis i came up with after hours of deliberation between me and my brain...

[sahen]

Originally posted by 3afan2K3
I asked the owner of texashsfootball.com and he said that he wasn't down becuase he actualy doesn't have possesion of the ball....I think thats correct because all he really is doing is redirecting it to the tee the touching it with a finger.
he has to catch it outa the air....so he has possession....

[3afan2K3]

He is holding on to the ball for probably a second or less before he puts it on the tee though. So he really doesn't have possession.

[Keith7]

ask your friend if the kicker can stand on his head??

[crabman]

I was president of Little League for a couple of years. The rulebook for baseball is about the size of a 3x5 notecard and maybe 1/4" thick. In that book is every situation that has ever come up in baseball in the last 150 years.
The football rulebook is on 8 1/2" x 11" paper and is a good 2" thick and there are more exceptions in it than there are rules. The complexities of the game are just unbelievable. It's amazing the refs get it even half right.

[Necked]

Indeed crabman, I've seen that book too, & thats why I'm baffled that a situation that occurs in every game all across the country isn't really addressed..............

[sahen]

Originally posted by 3afan2K3
He is holding on to the ball for probably a second or less before he puts it on the tee though. So he really doesn't have possession.

i thought possession is defined as the ability to make a football move w/ the ball?...if he catches it and can acurately put the ball on a little tee then i'd think that'd be possession?

[TXMike]

Originally posted by Necked
What got me about this senario & is the reason I brought it up last week is this. Every official I've asked this question to has said the exact same thing..."its understood"...or..."its an exception to the rule", and then I say "prove it..."
They have yet to show me where in the rulebook its allowed. It just boggles my mind that something so obvious when you think about it aparently isn't addressed in the rulebook....

It is addressed in the rulebook and I am not sure why the guys you talked to had such a hard time finding it. Perhaps because they think it is in the kicking rules section . In reality it is in the section where live balls and dead balls are discussed. Rule 4- 1-3 discusses what can cause a live ball to be come dead. 1 time is when the runner touches the ground withy part of his body other than a hand or foot. The holder is a "runner" because he is in possession of a live ball. But the rule provides an exception at 4-1-3-b. It says:
"When any part of the runner’s body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground or when the runner is tackled or otherwise falls and loses possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body, except his hand or foot. (Exception: The ball remains alive when an offensive player has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked, passed or advanced by rule) "

This means as long as there someone positioned to apparently kick the ball or if he has just simulated kicking the ball, the holder can have a knee down and the ball is NOT dead.

[Necked]

Outstanding! :clap: :clap:

[Keith7]

that does not explain if a kicker standing on his head is considered to be in a kicking position

[sahen]

thank u TXMike

[TXMike]

Originally posted by Keith7
that does not explain if a kicker standing on his head is considered to be in a kicking position


If I am working the game, he is NOT in position to make a kick so the holder will be ruled down if he has a knee down.;)

[TXMike]

Originally posted by sahen
i thought possession is defined as the ability to make a football move w/ the ball?...if he catches it and can acurately put the ball on a little tee then i'd think that'd be possession?


While that is not a rulebook definition of possession, it is a realistic definition that is used on many plays. And you are right, having the ball in your hands and being able to place it on the tee is definitely possession.

[TXMike]

Originally posted by 3afan2K3
He is holding on to the ball for probably a second or less before he puts it on the tee though. So he really doesn't have possession.

A player “gains possession’’ when he is firmly holding or controlling the ball while contacting the ground inbounds. Has nothing to do with length of time ball was held.

[Keith7]

Originally posted by TXMike
If I am working the game, he is NOT in position to make a kick so the holder will be ruled down if he has a knee down.;)

thanks.. now i know to make sure when i'm a coach that my kickers never stand on their heads!