Controversy on the "Holding call rulings" at present

[Old Cardinal]

I have been quite appalled at the immergence of a change in what constitutes "Holding". At one time, holding was holding at any point on the field. The stance by the Ref. Associations, today, now has changed to "holding is only called near the area of the play activity". Now when a back changes direction radically- then his team might have 4 people holding in the area of the progress of the play. This gives the Ref's a choice on what they choose to call, either way- they have a valid arguement!....On the other hand those same holding efforts would not be called IF the back had continued on a straight-forward run.....What this has done is PUT THE REFEREES IN A POSITION TO CALL HOLDING JUST ANY OLD TIME THEY CHOOSE, since holding is now acceptable arbitrally. I hate so see the officiating in a position to swing a game; so blatenly to which ever team they choose to favor. Holding is holding and the infraction should be called irregardless where it is done on the field because many good teams have backs that reverse their field quite often. ANY DISCUSSION?

<small>[ December 09, 2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Old Cardinal ]</small>

[JasperDog94]

Something about a guy's jersey being around his earhole makes me think that the refs occasionally turn a blind eye. wink

[TXMike]

Old Cardinal:
I have been quite appalled at the immergence of a change in what constitutes "Holding". At one time, holding was holding at any point on the field. The stance by the Ref. Associations, today, now has changed to "holding is only called near the area of the play activity". Now when a back changes direction radically- then his team might have 4 people holding in the area of the progress of the play. This gives the Ref's a choice on what they choose to call, either way- they have a valid arguement!....On the other hand those same holding efforts would not be called IF the back had continued on a straight-forward run.....What this has done is PUT THE REFEREES IN A POSITION TO CALL HOLDING JUST ANY OLD TIME THEY CHOOSE, since holding is now acceptable arbitrally. I hate so see the officiating in a position to swing a game; so blatenly to which ever team they choose to favor. Holding is holding and the infraction should be called irregardless where it is done on the field because many good teams have backs that reverse their field quite often. ANY DISCUSSION?The first thing is that your assumption about officials "swinging a game" in whichever direction they choose is completly without merit. If officials were going to do that, they could and would do that without resorting to holding calls.

Now to discuss holding enforcement. The current thought among officials at ALL levels (high school through NFL) is that blocking rules have been so liberalized over the years it has made it near impossible to catch all the "holding" that goes on. Therefore, we need to concentrate on those holds at the "point of attack" which put the defender at a disadvantage. Example: Off. tackle is holding a def tackle but the tackle still manages to get on the ball carrier and make the tackle. There is no reason to flag this hold.

Holding is not a "safety" issue, which is why it is only penalized by 10 yards instead of 15. Some fouls, like clipping, are dangerous and have a 15 yard penalty. They will be called wherever they are seen.

Part of the problem many fans and coaches have with "holding" is that they do not even understand what a hold is. Simply grabbing a jersey is not holding. The jersey must be grabbed and pulled, or the jersey grabbed and player twisted. If the "hold" does not obstruct or impede the player (yes this is a judgment call), there is no hold.

You want to solve this dilemma, let's go back to the old days when you could not use your hands at all. The offenses will come to a crashing halt and the games will take much longer as we deal with all the penalties.

[Old Cardinal]

Sir: The kids "holding" not at the point of attack, have no idea that the runner has changed his course and therefore they are now holding where the new point of attack is being established. It would seem that since you are letting kids hold all over the parameters, then the kids that don't know where the ball carrier has shifted to- would not be doing a valid "hold" meriting a valid foul! Sir, I respectfully can only see double-talk in any firm assessment of what a valid "hold" is under your new definitions. When, in the immediate old days, "anyone caught holding anywhere on the field,is subject to a foul call", then and only then, have the Ref's removed their power to call it any way they want it. Under the rules interpertions today, you guys can manufacture an answer for any given situation.....It saw a poorly called game this year between Orangefield and Port Neches-Groves, all of a sudden the Ref's started calling holds on OF on every play-not at the point of attack(as you call it). It would appear that both kids and Coaches have no idea what criteria you are going to use in any quarter of the ballgame, in all too many cases!

[TXMike]

Old Cardinal:
Sir: The kids "holding" not at the point of attack, have no idea that the runner has changed his course and therefore they are now holding where the new point of attack is being established. It would seem that since you are letting kids hold all over the parameters, then the kids that don't know where the ball carrier has shifted to- would not be doing a valid "hold" meriting a valid foul! Sir, I respectfully can only see double-talk in any firm assessment of what a valid "hold" is under your new definitions. When, in the immediate old days, "anyone caught holding anywhere on the field,is subject to a foul call", then and only then, have the Ref's removed their power to call it any way they want it. Under the rules interpertions today, you guys can manufacture an answer for any given situation.....It saw a poorly called game this year between Orangefield and Port Neches-Groves, all of a sudden the Ref's started calling holds on OF on every play-not at the point of attack(as you call it). It would appear that both kids and Coaches have no idea what criteria you are going to use in any quarter of the ballgame, in all too many cases!I don't think you are a coach, but if you are then you might want to contact your local Chapter of TASO and ask for a mini-clinic. At that session you can ask about the philosophy of holding and hopefuly you will understand. Seems to me you have a particular beef with refs in a particular game and calls against a particular team. Your comments re that 1 specific situation may be merited. I don't know as I was not at that game. I am just telling you what we are taught at our state-level meetings and what we (at least in my Chapter) teach our membership.

You can choose to call it "double talk" but we (or most of us anyway) understand the fine points of the rule which are clearly beyond the capability of many fans to understand.

That game you mentioned was one of those weather-affected matchups wasn't it? Maybe there were things going on outside of the flags which affected the game?

[Da Mules]

You make me feel OLD, You Young whippershnappers!! Back in the Real Old Days of high-top black Rawlings and cast-iron ankle wraps (Stone Age days) the zebers called holding on you if you didn't have both fists balled up in your jersey!! Didn't matter if you were on the opposite sideline or end zone---harumph; point of attack, my A$$. IronMan football, me buckos--every team was the Junction Boys! Headslaps were legal and darn well expected in them days, and Coach taught us to block and tackle with our facemask first! Hit em in the numbers with your facemask and don't dare blink, you wussy! And Dear Lord forbid if you so much as dreamed of a drop of water during practice.. water....what was we talking about...where's my dentures?

[Pudlugger]

Da Mules:
You make me feel OLD, You Young whippershnappers!! Back in the Real Old Days of high-top black Rawlings and cast-iron ankle wraps (Stone Age days) the zebers called holding on you if you didn't have both fists balled up in your jersey!! Didn't matter if you were on the opposite sideline or end zone---harumph; point of attack, my A$$. IronMan football, me buckos--every team was the Junction Boys! Headslaps were legal and darn well expected in them days, and Coach taught us to block and tackle with our facemask first! Hit em in the numbers with your facemask and don't dare blink, you wussy! And Dear Lord forbid if you so much as dreamed of a drop of water during practice.. water....what was we talking about...where's my dentures?Yeah man those were the days! i had a single bar for a facemask. The DT would put his forearm through it and give me a bloody nose. That would happen usually on the first play of the game to set the tone for the rest of the night. I thought I had the best equipment 'cause other guys had no facemasks and those leather helmets! Holding? You couldn't use your hands at all, just block with your forearms and elbows. Wow, has the game changed, now you have to tackle a guy to get a holding call! LOL :D

[Old Cardinal]

Well TXMike, I believe you have answered the question for me, when you stated, "We understand the fine points of the rule which is clearly beyond the capability of many fans to understand." I think you have really answered the question, with this statement, for a lot of us!....No, it was not just one game this year that I am referring to-you experts have called the full spectrum from nit-picking to free-for-alls, on holding calls. By allowing selective holding on the field, you opened the pandora box of everyone calling it any way they choose, because no standard can be established or adhered too..

[TXMike]

Old Cardinal:
By allowing selective holding on the field, you opened the pandora box of everyone calling it any way they choose, because no standard can be established or adhered too..I am not sure why you have such a fixation on holding...there are MANY fouls that are called differently from Chapter to Chapter, and in some cases, even within the Chapter. There is NO way much of what goes on in a football game can be made black and white. There has to be room for gray. As a result, the NFL has adopted a standard which has started filtering down to other levels. That standard is called "advantage/disadvantage". If an act does not cause advantage to one team or disadvantage to another, then it should not be flagged.

The NCAA coaches write the rules but what goes on in Texas HS football has always had significant impact on the NCAA rules committee. If Texas coaches want something done differently, they can take it to the NCAA or they can even just take it to UIL and have a UIL exception made. There are already several such in the rulebook.

Fans obviously have limited impact but one thing they CAN do is join our ranks. Maybe they can then see games officiated the way they want them to be.

[JasperDog94]

You said it OC. When the rules are left up to the refs to decide what constitutes a "point of attack" then we all lose. Each ref has a different point of view on the field PLUS a different view of what constitutes a hold. I guess it's kind of like the strike zone in baseball. Some pitchers get the outside fastball called a strike while some don't. I call it "The Barry Bonds Rule". Some people get the benefit of the doubt while some don't.

Answer me this: If a quarterback is rolling to his left and a defensive back is on the other hash mark and is being held, is he anywhere near the "point of attack"? Probably not. BUT if the quarterback runs back across the field, then completes a pass, would he not have been stopped by the defensive back that was being held earlier?

Just food for thought. :cool:

[TXMike]

JasperDog94:

Answer me this: If a quarterback is rolling to his left and a defensive back is on the other hash mark and is being held, is he anywhere near the "point of attack"? Probably not. BUT if the quarterback runs back across the field, then completes a pass, would he not have been stopped by the defensive back that was being held earlier?

Just food for thought. :cool: By the time the QB gets back over to where the "hold" was, I doubt the "hold" will still be going on and the DB can go make the tackle. Most "holds" are of very short duration. If it lasted so long that it was still going on when the QB got back over there, it would likely be flagged.

<small>[ December 10, 2002, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: TXMike ]</small>

[JasperDog94]

TXMike,

I'm not trying to dog any official. I know you guys have a tough job to do. I've worked the chains on the sidelines several times and I know that you can't see everything. My main concern is that holding is holding...period. Just because a foul doesn't effect the outcome of the play doesn't mean that there wasn't a foul.

I am really concerned about this "point of attack" reference made in this post. It would actually make the refs job easier if they didn't have to make judgement calls like that. If there is a foul, then throw the flag.

You guys do a great job almost all the time. It's kind of like posters on this forum. A couple of knuckleheads can give everyone a bad name. Keep up the good work. :)

[slpybear the bullfan]

Interesting thread...

Here are a couple of novice observations I will add..

1.) isn't each of the officials charged with watching different parts of the play? If this is done, how can all holding calls be made, (i.e. not ever player can be watched all the time)

2.) I cannot see how and district, much less region or state organization of officials can call games the same. I think different crews will call games slightly different, and the differences would become more exagerrated for the bigger the organization.

3.) on the DE being held in the example above, I do not think that would be called holding, unless the QB was to reverse course and make the hold highly visible AND be considered an impact on the play.

Just my $.02

[PappaBear]

Holds happen on every play, if the refs where to call them all it wouldn't be very fun to watch, or play. coaches teach players to hold inside the numbers grabing the shoulder pads, so it is not out in the open refs know this and only call holding when a players hands grab up on the shoulder or go around the back and pull the jersey away from the body or grab on to the pants or leg.

[Jacket2000]

I agree with most of the posters on this thread. If the "hold" doesn't affect the play, then dont call it. If the runner changes directions and suddenly the "hold" has an impact, then throw the flag. If it's meaningless, then let the kids play!
J2K

[JasperDog94]

I guess we'll just keep having this conversation from time to time as most people seem to only want holds called if they are near the ball. Forget the fact that the tight end is being held by a linebacker down field. Don't call that a hold, he's not near the ball. Forget the fact that he is a reciever down field. He's not near the ball or "the point of attack". Let them play and keep letting officials subjectivly dictate what they will call holding and what they won't. :D

[TexDoc]

Jasper,

TXMike has explained this well (and he's a darned good official), so I have little to add. But (there's always that "but"), I do want to add that what Mike has told you is a matter of fact - something that just isn't going to change. Neither you nor I have the power to make the way holding is called changed.

The thing to remember about "point of attack" is where the ball is. If the play is off tackle right and the left tackle holds, it is very unlikely there will be a holding call because the point of attack is away from the hold, the officials are focusing on the point of attack, and it really doesn't affect the play. If, in the same scenario, the ball carrier changes direction and goes toward the hold - changing the point of attack, the hold will be called if the hold is still occurring when the ball carrier gets in the vicinity.

The rules to football are black and white. They aren't easily understood many times, but they are definitive and written down. Judgment on the other hand is not as cut and dry. All officials have to exercise some level of judgment on every play. The point of attack principal is one of the basic principals that all officials must learn, and learn quickly, if they wish to continue to officiate. Any official, and I mean ANY official that calls holding as you are prescribing would not last very long at all. The coaches would all scratch him and he would be quitting to spend more time calling basketball.

I hope I've clouded this conversation even more.

[big daddy russ]

JasperDog94:
...Forget the fact that the tight end is being held by a linebacker down field. Don't call that a hold, he's not near the ball. Forget the fact that he is a reciever down field. He's not near the ball or "the point of attack". Let them play and keep letting officials subjectivly dictate what they will call holding and what they won't. :D Actually, Jasper, I think the officials almost always call holding when it's downfield. I can see where you might could make a case for "non-calls" around the LOS, but mike and doc are right about it slowing the game down significantly. I say just let the kids play.

[Old Cardinal]

I am not trying to dog officials, I think you are trying to do a good job, for the most part. But, look at it from a 16 year olds point of view. He is now holding as the Coach as said is allowed-on the off-side. Now the runner changes direction and he is now directly in the point of attack---He has not looked back, because he is intently holding his assigned player "just like Coach said, is allowed". Now he gets flagged because of a hold that inhibits the defensive player for making an obvious play. Now, my question is; what kind of mixed signal has the Officials Organization interpertation- been given to the young man. Gentlemen, you have painted yourselves into a corner by allowing holds any where on the field from not being flagged. Double talk,will not solve the problem, the only think that is fair and equiable is to not allow random holding anywhere on the field. HS football did just fine for 80 years not allowing holding to be so haphazardly decided by Officials Organizations instead of what is printed in rule books.

[TexDoc]

Hold on Hoss...we need to clarify something. I never said that holding away from the point of attack it legal, and I never will. It is technically illegal and I'm going to tell players they can't do it. If I see it, I'm probably not going to flag it, but I am surely going to ride that player over and over until he understands that I'm watching. If there is an absolute take-down away from the point of attack, there's a good chance I will flag it.

We're not sending out mixed messages because we are saying that all holding is illegal, period. We aren't saying that some holding is legal. What we are trying to get across is that if a hold occurs, it MAY not get called if away from the point of attack. It is the official’s discretion to discern whether or not it should have been called.

I think you’re making it too difficult and I know you’re smarter than that. We really only want to call those infractions that put one team at a disadvantage and not get too caught up in the black and white lettering of the rule. Is holding hard to call? Darned right it is! But, it is also the second most called infraction in my chapter. We get yelled at for calling it and yelled at for not calling it. My philosophy is let the players play as much as I can without one team getting an obvious advantage.

I wish I could write it well enough to convince you, but we may just have to agree to disagree. Like I said before though, the whole point is moot because that’s just the way holding is called.

[BH_146]

Old Cardinal, I think I know of a play you may be referring to .... No wait, that change of direction play went for a touchdown didn't it. I guess they couldn't get the flag out for the 4th time in a row.

Seriously, with all this discussion about where "legal" holding is allowed on the field, are coaches beginning to develop blocking techniques with this in mind believing over the long term of the game it would be advantageous?

<small>[ December 14, 2002, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: BH_146 ]</small>

[TXMike]

I know defensive coaches (the better ones I have witnessed anyway) are teaching their players to get separation so the hold can be seen. As long as the 2 players are locked up in the "blocking dance" it is very easy for the offensive guy to get hold of a jersey or even front of shoulder pads. If the defender is content to stay there and "foxtrot", that hold is rarely going to be called.

[3ABirdMan]

TexDoc:
Hold on Hoss...we need to clarify something. I never said that holding away from the point of attack is legal, and I never will. We're not sending out mixed messages because we are saying that all holding is illegal, period. We aren't saying that some holding is legal...

It is technically illegal and I'm going to tell players they can't do it. We're not sending out mixed messages because we are saying that all holding is illegal, period. We aren't saying that some holding is legal....

If I see it, I'm probably not going to flag it, but I am surely going to ride that player over and over until he understands that I'm watching. We're not sending out mixed messages because we are saying that all holding is illegal, period. We aren't saying that some holding is legal....

What we are trying to get across is that if a hold occurs, it MAY not get called if away from the point of attack. We're not sending out mixed messages because we are saying that all holding is illegal, period. We aren't saying that some holding is legal....

It is the official's discretion to discern whether or not it should have been called. We're not sending out mixed messages because we are saying that all holding is illegal, period. We aren't saying that some holding is legal....

I think you're making it too difficult and I know you're smarter than that. We really only want to call those infractions that put one team at a disadvantage and not get too caught up in the black and white lettering of the rule. We're not sending out mixed messages because we are saying that all holding is illegal, period. We aren't saying that some holding is legal....OK, why does this sound like a Washington politician trying to sell the public a $700 toilet seat? If all holding is illegal, THROW THE FLAG!!! Teams will either learn to play within the rules of the game, or LOSE! In my opinion, this is exactly what's wrong with this Generation "Next" or whatever it is called - Our society doesn't want to hurt their feelings and make them cry, or be responsible, or anything, or slow down the game and make them play longer, or make them do it right the first time, and Heaven forbid we expect the referees to try to do THEIR JOB - LIBERALISM!!!!

Play by the rules or buy a trumpet and sit in the band!

[bearkatdad]

Let me see if I have this straight...All holding is illegal, yet we don't flag all holding!!!!Nope, I don't think I understand...I better go back and read some more of the previous posts..

[TexDoc]

"Let me see if I have this straight...All holding is illegal, yet we don't flag all holding!!!!Nope, I don't think I understand...I better go back and read some more of the previous posts.. "

You're starting to catch on. The guy that threw 20 holding penalties per game is sitting next to you in the stands because the coaches won't use him.

[TXMike]

It is not as simple as saying "all holding is illegal". If you do not understand what is and what is not holding, you are going to sit up there in the bleachers cussin' and complainin'. The "hold" must "impede or obstruct" the opponent in order to be a "hold."

[Old Cardinal]

To Texas Doc and Texas Mike: All holding by the book is illegal; you think that your judgements are more sophisticated than the dumb folks in the stands that want to see rules enforced-that are printed. I really think that since your organizations of Officials have placed yourselves ABOVE the standard rules of the printed page, that you have only two choices to make...1. Lobby for a return to an overall enforcement of rulebook standards, and get things changed. 2. Join the ranks of the folks in the stands, knowing that you are presently trying to defend the indefensible.......Gentlemen, it is not only football that has lost it's usage of rules-I watched 12 year old girls in a basketball tournament and they were throwing flying body blocks and everyone fouled on every play. Eight girls were hurt pretty bad in two games. The worst injury I saw was a broken wrist. Now the Officiating did not call almost any calls but traveling, the girls have no idea they were breaking rules in the book, but calling fouls did not happen AND THE GAMES FINISHED ON TIME throughout the tournament. So now we are developing kids that think there are just no rules in life to adhere to. The tragedy is that full grown adults are allowing the children to grow up in a world where they now think that there are no steadfast rules to go by. I work in the prison ministry arena, and I can assure you there are young adults growing up that think that there are absolutely no rules that need be abided by. They were taught that by example.

<small>[ December 15, 2002, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Old Cardinal ]</small>

[TXMike]

There are a lot more coaches, fans and refs who want it done the way we are doing it than the way you want it. I think we will just continue with the status quo and let you be miserable.

[JasperDog94]

TXMike:
There are a lot more coaches, fans and refs who want it done the way we are doing it than the way you want it. I think we will just continue with the status quo and let you be miserable.Yeah, guys! Come on, let's forget about the rules and do whatever is popular. After all, getting paid is what it's all about. :D

[slpybear the bullfan]

Anyone who thinks every hold should be called should also support every speeder being given a ticket...

:D