Differences in Div 1 & Div 2 Talent

[Bullaholic]

I wonder how great of an athletic ability differential exists between Div 1 and Div 2 teams because of the differences in enrollment sizes? Guess we'll never really be able to answer this question unless we have a Div 1-Div 2 playoff game, which brings up a whole different question--- and I realize the playoff consolidation debate question has been beat to death for a while on most of the forums.

[Chief Woodman]

In my mind there is not as much as you might think. Take 7-3A for example the last two years. The 3rd place team went D-1 while the first and scond place teams went D-2 both years.

[PPHSfan]

You will never have a true Division One vs Division Two until the 32 largest schools are put into D1 regardless of district, and the remaining 64 are put into D2 using the same guidlines. Until then it is a moot point. With the way the system is done now, the D2 champ could actually have a higher ADM than the D1 champ.

[olddawggreen]

I cant speak for this year, but over the last two years I think theres been a big difference in the level of competition between Div 1 and Div 2. Just my personal opinion.
Burnet beat Div. 2 State Champ Bandera soundly in District play in 2002. Burnet also beat Div. 2 State Finalist Marlin in Pre Season 2003. The level of compitition in no way compared to the Div. 1 teams they faced later in the play offs those years. I cant really speak for atlanta, because we didnt play them.

[PPHSfan]

Let's just say that hypothetically Sinton wins the D1 title and Jasper wins the D2 title.

I am not positive but I think Jasper has about 200 more students than Sinton.

Now what happens to your argument?

[Keith7]

What if Whitesboro won division 1 and Jasper won division 2...

then look at the talent drop off

[Gobbla2001]

If there is any, it'd be in favor of D1, but I do not believe there a significant difference...

[jason]

there are twice as many d2 schools so the chances of there being talent are better...

[Keith7]

alot (not all) of the schools on d-2 are 2nd and third place teams

[3afan]

Originally posted by Keith7
What if Whitesboro won division 1 and Jasper won division 2...

then look at the talent drop off

you cant just throw that out there ............. if whitesboro is good enuf to win a division 1 title then how can you say there is a big talent difference between them (pick ANY school) and Jasper? its not that cut -n- dried. IMO, generally speaking and yes its been stated before, the athletic ability differential between Div 1 and Div 2 teams because of the differences in enrollment sizes is more or less N/A 'cause of how Div 1 & Div 2 are split up.

[Keith7]

Originally posted by 3afan
you cant just throw that out there ............. if whitesboro is good enuf to win a division 1 title then how can you say there is a big talent difference between them (pick ANY school) and Jasper? its not that cut -n- dried. IMO, generally speaking and yes its been stated before, the athletic ability differential between Div 1 and Div 2 teams because of the differences in enrollment sizes is more or less N/A 'cause of how Div 1 & Div 2 are split up.

i just felt like imagining Whitesboro winning a D-1 title.. that would be amazing considering they havnt made the playoffs since 1936, and to go D-1 Gainesville would have to miss the playoffs..

i wasnt really serious

[3afan]

the original question is impossible to answer IMO - at least there is no right/wrong answer, just more opinions

[slpybear the bullfan]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
You will never have a true Division One vs Division Two until the 32 largest schools are put into D1 regardless of district, and the remaining 64 are put into D2 using the same guidlines. Until then it is a moot point. With the way the system is done now, the D2 champ could actually have a higher ADM than the D1 champ.

PPHSFan is exactly right about this one...

[WOS92]

The difference is not in talent. That's just luck of the draw. The difference is in depth, and, in that, you have a better chance of drawing great athletes -- simply b/c you have more students to draw from.
That's a battle we fought for years at WO-S as one of the smallest 4A schools.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by WOS92
The difference is not in talent. That's just luck of the draw. The difference is in depth, and, in that, you have a better chance of drawing great athletes -- simply b/c you have more students to draw from.
That's a battle we fought for years at WO-S as one of the smallest 4A schools.

I think that's the best answer I've heard.

[big daddy russ]

There's a big difference between who has the most talent and who has the best team. Whitesboro has never made the playoffs in almost 70 years. You can't tell me that they've never had the talent. There are a lot of other factors that go into it.

A few years ago, when Everman won their second title, I got the chance to see Sinton, Everman, Burnet and Jasper play (three of the D1 powerhouses back in 2002). Wharton had so much more talent than any of those teams. I'm talking loaded at every position, but they never made Regionals.

That same year in D2 Aransas Pass had loads more talent than Port Isabel (who beat them in the second round) and Bandera (who won the State Title). They barely survived 6-4 Cotulla in the first round of the playoffs and lost a 20-19 heartbreaker to PI in the second.

A few years back I played on an intramural football team at a community college in Corpus. Zero talent. No lie. One of the two or three least talented teams in a field of around 12. We still placed second in that field, losing only to a team that went on to get third at Nationals in New Orleans.

There's a lot more to a team than just talent.

[Bandera YaYa]

Originally posted by olddawggreen
I cant speak for this year, but over the last two years I think theres been a big difference between Div 1 and Div 2. Just my personal opinion.
Burnet beat Div. 2 State Champ Bandera soundly in District play in 2002. Burnet also beat Div. 2 State Finalist Marlin in Pre Season 2003. The level of compitition in no way compared to the Div. 1 teams they faced later in the play offs those years. I cant really speak for atlanta, because we didnt play them. So, what are you saying.....that Bandera had less talent because we lost to you in District play in 2002? Heck, we only got better during the playoffs. We had plenty of talent.!! .......And a severe case of determination to prove everyone wrong!! . :cheerl: :cheerl:

[SintonFan]

I think chemistry and playing under the same system consistently is more important than talent. Some teams prove every year that talent is as only good as all the other tangibles and intangibles. And even that is spotty from year to year. 3a football is the ultimate parity in HS sports. There are too many pieces to the puzzle to make the bigger picture complete or completely. That's why preseason polls are irrelevant. Since there are only two state champions in football, there should be ONLY a ranking system based on two.
A no. 1 team and a no. 2 team based on who the experts believe will win last on the two repsective tiers.
:D :confused: :confused: :D
.
I agree with bdr, W92, PPHS and most here.

[WOS92]

I cant speak for this year, but over the last two years I think theres been a big difference between Div 1 and Div 2. Just my personal opinion.Burnet beat Div. 2 State Champ Bandera soundly in District play in 2002. Burnet also beat Div. 2 State Finalist Marlin in Pre Season 2003. The level of compitition in no way compared to the Div. 1 teams they faced later in the play offs those years. I cant really speak for atlanta, because we didnt play them.

By that line of thinking, I have an example that "proves" the contrary: In 2000, WO-S was a Div. II state finalist in 4A, losing to Ennis. Bay City was the Div. I State champion. WO-S beat Bay City in the pre-district 10-7. Bay City did not BEGIN to compare to Ennis. Personally, I've always thought the Div. II champ deserves more credit than Div. I, simply because they've played (and won) one more game to get to the title.

[LH Panther Mom]

The question is mute. There are too many "what ifs" to determine if D1 or D2 has the most talent. Take our district, for example. If Ingram wins district (feel free to laugh at me & sorry Ingram fans) and Brady & LH take the other 2 playoff spots, LH will be D1 as being the largest of the 3. However, if Bandera, Wimberley & LH are the top 3 teams, we are D2 & Bandera will be D1. Do we have any less talent?

On a side note, how did we end up with 1/2 a kid?

[Underwater Basketweaver]

Ok, in general I think the point of this conversation is totally lost by the word talent. Let's just say "Are the D1 teams overall better than the D2 teams?" That includes coaching, chemistry, talent, and whatever other cliche words you may want to use. In my opinion the answer is no. On the other hand, I believe you could make a point to say that the Div1 champion is going to be better than the "majority" of the Div2 playoff teams. That is not saying they are better than the Div2 champ or finalist, etc... just that of the 64 Div 2 teams in Round 1 of the playoffs I would say that the Div 1 finalist would probably beat most and in some years all of those teams.

[Underwater Basketweaver]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
The question is mute. There are too many "what ifs" to determine if D1 or D2 has the most talent. Take our district, for example. If Ingram wins district (feel free to laugh at me & sorry Ingram fans) and Brady & LH take the other 2 playoff spots, LH will be D1 as being the largest of the 3. However, if Bandera, Wimberley & LH are the top 3 teams, we are D2 & Bandera will be D1. Do we have any less talent?

On a side note, how did we end up with 1/2 a kid?

No offense LH mom, but I think you meant the question is moot. Otherwise it is a very quiet question :D

[3afan]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
...Wharton had so much more talent than any of those teams. ...

but thats IMPOSSIBLE to judge

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by Underwater Basketweaver
No offense LH mom, but I think you meant the question is moot. Otherwise it is a very quiet question :D

:doh:

[olddawggreen]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
There's a big difference between who has the most talent and who has the best team. Whitesboro has never made the playoffs in almost 70 years. You can't tell me that they've never had the talent. There are a lot of other factors that go into it.

A few years ago, when Everman won their second title, I got the chance to see Sinton, Everman, Burnet and Jasper play (three of the D1 powerhouses back in 2002). Wharton had so much more talent than any of those teams. I'm talking loaded at every position, but they never made Regionals.

That same year in D2 Aransas Pass had loads more talent than Port Isabel (who beat them in the second round) and Bandera (who won the State Title). They barely survived 6-4 Cotulla in the first round of the playoffs and lost a 20-19 heartbreaker to PI in the second.

A few years back I played on an intramural football team at a community college in Corpus. Zero talent. No lie. One of the two or three least talented teams in a field of around 12. We still placed second in that field, losing only to a team that went on to get third at Nationals in New Orleans.

There's a lot more to a team than just talent.

I have to totally disagree with your statement that in 2002 Wharton had so much more talent than Sinton, Everman, Burnet and Jasper. If Wharton had more talent than these teams they sure failed to use it on the field. The reason Wharton failed to make Regionals is because Burnet beat them soundly in both 2002 and 2003. There was much pre game hype about "Whartons Unstopable Talent", but it didnt prove out. I dont really understand how you can say that Wharton "had so much more talent" than a team that totally dominated them two years in a row. :confused:

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by 3afan
but thats IMPOSSIBLE to judge
How so? NFL scouts do it all the time.

[olddawggreen]

Originally posted by Bandera YaYa
So, what are you saying.....that Bandera had less talent because we lost to you in District play in 2002? Heck, we only got better during the playoffs. We had plenty of talent.!! .......And a severe case of determination to prove everyone wrong!! . :cheerl: :cheerl:

Bandera YaYa, no where in my post did I say that Bandera lacked talent in 2002, of coarse they had plenty of talent. They were a Cinderela team that played hard and won the Div. 2 State Championship and I pulled for them all the way. What I was trying to say is that I felt that Burnet faced no serious competition until they met Sinton in the Div. 1 play offs. At that point the competion stepped up considerably. Im not trying to take anything away from Bandera, but if you had faced Everman in the final game, theres no question in my mind that Bandera would not have won a state title in 2002.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by olddawggreen
I have to totally disagree with your statement that in 2002 Wharton had so much more talent than Sinton, Everman, Burnet and Jasper. If Wharton had more talent than these teams they sure failed to use it on the field. The reason Wharton failed to make Regionals is because Burnet beat them soundly in both 2002 and 2003. There was much pre game hype about "Whartons Unstopable Talent", but it didnt prove out. I dont really understand how you can say that Wharton "had so much more talent" than a team that totally dominated them two years in a row. :confused:

Burnet did beat them... they beat them pretty good. :D :D But there's a big difference between talent and team. That's the point of my post. Everyone's opinions on the team with the most pure talent are going to be different than everyone's opinion on the best team out there. The best team out there wins six games (or five for D1) after the regular season's over.

Burnet beat Jasper by something like 30 in the 2002 semifinals. Did you have that much more talent? Or did you take advantage of a mismatch?

[olddawggreen]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Burnet did beat them... they beat them pretty good. :D :D But there's a big difference between talent and team. That's the point of my post. Everyone's opinions on the team with the most pure talent are going to be different than everyone's opinion on the best team out there. The best team out there wins six games (or five for D1) after the regular season's over.

Burnet beat Jasper by something like 30 in the 2002 semifinals. Did you have that much more talent? Or did you take advantage of a mismatch?

As I remember, Jasper was heavely fovored to win the 2002 semi final game, no one had scored on them in 3 or 4 games, so I dont think you could say Burnet took advantage of a mismatch. As far as Jaspers talent pool, I think they had plenty of it. I think that Jasper in 2002 like Wharton in 2002 and 2003 were so overwelmed so early in the game by Burnet, that they basicly layed down and gave up. Jasper in 2003 was a completely different story. They didnt take Burnet for granted as they did in 02 and competed hard to the very end of the game.

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by Chief Woodman
In my mind there is not as much as you might think. Take 7-3A for example the last two years. The 3rd place team went D-1 while the first and scond place teams went D-2 both years.

yeah...that has happened a lot

[veer option]

As being a coach the past few years of a playoff team in 3A Division I. I feel that the harder road was Division I. Just look at the teams that went Division I.

Jasper
Everman
Burnet
Sinton
Wharton
Forney (Not Sure if They were DI)

Just like someone posted earlier with Bandera. I'm glad they were able to win the DII title but I honestly don't think they could have won the DI title playing the teams listed above.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by veer option
As being a coach the past few years of a playoff team in 3A Division I. I feel that the harder road was Division I. Just look at the teams that went Division I.

Jasper
Everman
Burnet
Sinton
Wharton
Forney (Not Sure if They were DI)

Just like someone posted earlier with Bandera. I'm glad they were able to win the DII title but I honestly don't think they could have won the DI title playing the teams listed above.

Did you know that in 2002 when Bandera won the title, that they would have been the D1 team in about 28 other districts. They had 800+ students.


Like I said before. D1 D2 is a moot point, because of the way it is structured.

[Chris' Agent]

Not a thing..

[HighSchool Fan]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Whitesboro has never made the playoffs in almost 70 years. You can't tell me that they've never had the talent. There are a lot of other factors that go into it.

If you have ever seen Whitesboro play then you would see that they have don't have the talent to win. My friends Parent's graduated from Whitesboro in the 60's and they even say that Whitesboro never had any talent. Please for everyone's sake do not put talent and Whitesboro in the same sentence.:D

[veer option]

Yes I do know what Bandera had. I watched them play a couple of games that year and do know the size of their enrollment. That year it was in the 700's. But the point was that "I" did not think they could have won state in Division I.

[Matthew328]

It all depends on the year...last few years D-1 was stronger..some years D-2 is better