Judge rules Redskins name not demeaning (article)

[Gobbla2001]

Judge rules Redskins name not demeaning

By Eric Fisher
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

The Washington Redskins have successfully appealed a 1999 federal ruling that stripped the franchise of its trademark protection.

U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly on Tuesday overturned a decision by a panel of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, finding there was insufficient evidence to support claims that the team's nickname and its Indian head logo demean American Indians.

The stakes for the Redskins were significant: The franchise stood to lose as much as $5 million in merchandising revenue each year had it lost the appeal. More importantly, it would have lost control of one of the most well-known brand names in professional sports.

The Redskins retained the exclusive use of the nickname and logo during the four-year appeal process.

"We feel completely vindicated," said Robert Raskopf, the New York attorney representing Pro-Football Inc., the parent organization of the Redskins. "What this ruling says is what we've been saying all along: that these claims were not supported and would not withstand this kind of legal scrutiny."

The case was brought forward in 1992 by a group of seven American Indians, including Cheyenne activist and District resident Suzan Shown Harjo.

The Trademark Trial and Appeal Board seven years later granted the group's petition to cancel the Redskins' trademark protection as a violation of the Lanham Act, which prohibits the registration of names considered "disparaging, scandalous, contemptuous or disreputable."

The group's claims fell apart on two fronts, Judge Kollar-Kotelly ruled. First, the evidence presented by the group did not clearly prove "a substantial composite" of American Indians would view the club's nickname as disparaging.

The group had offered as evidence the results of a 1996 opinion survey of about 300 American Indians that found that a majority considered the term "redskin" offensive.

Judge Kollar-Kotelly found that survey to be not timely enough and said the board made a mistake in extrapolating the results of that poll to the American Indian population as a whole.

"The board premised its disparagement conclusion on a paucity of actual findings of fact that were linked together through inferential arguments that had no basis in the record," Judge Kollar-Kotelly wrote.

Perhaps more damaging, the group waited 25 years after the Redskins first registered their nickname and logo to file suit.

"By waiting so long to exercise their rights, [the American Indians] make it difficult for any fact-finder to affirmatively state that in 1967 the trademarks were disparaging," Judge Kollar-Kotelly wrote.

The group is considering an appeal.

"This is obviously a disappointment," said Michael Lindsay, attorney for the group. "We thought the unanimous decision of the [trademark] board really got this right. This is really no different than using the n-word to refer to African-Americans. Regardless of how the team says it's treated Native Americans, this is still a racial epithet."

Judge Kollar-Kotelly did not render a decision on whether the name "Redskins" is offensive. Rather, the ruling simply speaks to the group's lack of evidence and the "legal sufficiency" of the trademark board's decision.

The franchise originally was located in Boston and was called the Braves. George Preston Marshall purchased the team in 1932 and soon after changed the nickname to Redskins in honor of the team's coach, William "Lone Star" Dietz, an American Indian. The team moved to Washington in 1937 and was renamed the Washington Redskins.

The Redskins still could have used have used the nickname — and they almost certainly would have, at least in the short term — had they lost the appeal.

But without federal trademark protection, anybody wishing to produce T-shirts, hats and other merchandise bearing the word "Redskins" could have done so.

Club owner Dan Snyder has long argued, as did predecessor Jack Kent Cooke, that "Redskins" is meant as a term of honor and steadfastly has refused to consider numerous formal and informal petitions to change the name.

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Gobbla2001 ]</small>

[bellvillefan6699]

awesome.. iam glad

[crzyjournalist03]

thank goodness.

[SintonFan]

Strike up a win against political correctness!
YEAY!!!

[Ozzy]

Just another case of whitey being in control. What was that Judges name? (U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly) Doesn't sound like a Native American name to me. Oh, that's right, whitey doesn't appoint or support Native Americans to hold a federal judiciary seat.

[txrangers]

being a Cowboy's Fan, I have always felt like DEADSKINS was a more appropriate term especially when you line up against the Dallas Cowboys.

[bellvillefan6699]

oh my god, that is the most ignorant thing i have ever read in my entire life ozz, get a life. i am part indian an my dad actually has red skin, he could care less.

[bellvillefan6699]

now quit your whining... if you don't like the name then don't support the team.

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: bellvillefan6699 ]</small>

[txrangers]

or Foreskins

[Pandora]

That is great. Perhaps one day we can return the USA to its former glory before all of this civil rights stuff started. It has done nothing but cause our great country trouble for the past 40 years.

[SintonFan]

Pandora:
That is great. Perhaps one day we can return the USA to its former glory before all of this civil rights stuff started. It has done nothing but cause our great country trouble for the past 40 years.Noone is against civil rights. The problem lies with so many people who abuse civil rights for their own personal and nationwide agendas. This is a very very touchy subject. frown

[Ozzy]

What if Jim Thorpe were playing today, and Rush complained that he wasn't ever really that good, that his team and the NFL just needed a good Indian QB in the league. Would he still get fired?

[Bandera YaYa]

Ozzy....he didn't get fired, he resigned. And I for one understood what he was saying....it was not a racial slur, but I see how it could be interpreted as such.... I don't listen to Rush so don't say I share his views, but the media is just waiting for a bandwagon to jump on...the world would be a better place if they just stuck to the facts and just reported the news! They are like the third kid playing with two others (moms will understand this), the third one just has instigate something so they will all start fighting amongst theirselves...only in AMerica can you practice free speech and then get crucified by the media, for doing so....getting back to what he said, he was trying to say that, that's what the media was wanting...not him! But he resigned so as not to make more out of it then was already made....I respect him for that.

As far as the Redskins issue....I have always been a 'skins fan...hate the Cowboys....and I have always held the name in high honor...never once thought it was something bad or demeaning to the Indian tribes in America.....I mean, should there be an uprising by "cowboys"?? or maybe the "dolphin" population should hire a lawyer or the "vikings" ??? That's what I hate about this society...everyone has to walk around on egg shells, least they step on anyone's toes!!! Can't we all get along AND still have a sense of humor??? Love your neighbors!! I don't care if they are black, brown or purple polka dotted!! Stop being so sensitve and take care of what God has given you!! Stop crying foul play and stop LOOKING for something to complain about!! There is soooooo much need in this world.....if all that is taken care of, THEN I won't care how loud anyone screams!!!Geeezzzzz.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Peace and Ya Ya!

[Gobbla2001]

BOO YAAAAAAAAAAAaa YAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...

Ya Ya just tagged some butt on that one, great job!

[bellvillefan6699]

exactly

[crzyjournalist03]

belvillefan6699...seriously you need to edit the post before the last one before the administrators see it...I'm not threatening you or whatever you call it...I'm being serious...you don't have to listen to me, but you can't say I didn't warn you.

[bellvillefan6699]

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: bellvillefan6699 ]</small>

[Hetfan]

dude journalist, just quit the taunting, we'd be cool with each other if youd just quit the dadburned taunting, p.s. I'll EDIT YOU!

[bellvillefan6699]

i edited it. it used to say "bitching" where it now says whining, just for the record.

[bellvillefan6699]

i agree, the taunting has got to stop.

[crzyjournalist03]

Hetfan:
dude journalist, just quit the taunting, we'd be cool with each other if youd just quit the dadburned taunting, p.s. I'll EDIT YOU!I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you can't do that, and even if you could, there's nothing I've said worth editing.

[crzyjournalist03]

ok...have it your way...

[Hetfan]

dont jerk me around here, just quit the taunting, thats all i want. p.s. yes you can be edited

[espn1]

SHANGHAI, HONG KONG, EGG FOO YUNG, CALIFORNIA YELLOW SKINS NUMBER 1.

[crzyjournalist03]

Hetfan:
dont jerk me around here, just quit the taunting, thats all i want. p.s. yes you can be editedok hetfan...I quit...nothing more will be said to you or belville6699...I've tried to help, and you think I'm being a jerk, so I give up. I'm not going to say anything to either one of you about your posts after this.

BTW...posts can only be edited by the poster and by administrators, so, no, you can't edit my posts.

[Bandera YaYa]

SintonFan:

Pandora:
That is great. Perhaps one day we can return the USA to its former glory before all of this civil rights stuff started. It has done nothing but cause our great country trouble for the past 40 years.Noone is against civil rights. The problem lies with so many people who abuse civil rights for their own personal and nationwide agendas. This is a very very touchy subject. :(Yep, I agree with you...it's a "ME ME ME ME" society ..... frown

[Hetfan]

dang, was that so hard journalist, if you dont taunt me we're ok and stay out of my shoot, i can and will edit you

[Phil C]

HOW ABOUT THEM SPURS WINNING THE 2003 NBA CHAMPIONSHIP!

BEST NBA SERIES WE EVER HAD!

[Ozzy]

You people still don't get it. Nobody gives a damn if "Redskin" is offensive to you, unless you yourself are 100% Native American. It's offensive to THEM. I'm sure slave owners didn't take offense to others calling their workers the n-word. If it's offensive to an entire population that is being referred to, then it is wrong. It's our job, just as it was the job of the Civil Rights activists, to help stop it. The entire lawsuit over the matter was won by millionaires buying lawyers who could win a court case. It has nothing to do with doing what is right. It's that narrow-minded "white-skinned" attitude that has caused the problem, and then refuses to admit fault when it comes to a head.

[3ahunter2k4]

ozzy seriously, you don't get it. this is a free country. the washington redskins are a franchise and this is a free enterprise system. they have the right to name their company whatever they choose. if you don't like how they do business, do not invest your time or money in them. do not buy redskin jerseys, do not watch them on tv, do not buy the products that advertise during their games and so forth. it is no one's choice what they call themselves; if it is bad for business because their name offends people, then that is their own problem. go buy a team yourself and create your own politically correct name like the thunder bears, fairies, rainbows or team B.

[Ozzy]

Bandera YaYa:

SintonFan:

Pandora:
That is great. Perhaps one day we can return the USA to its former glory before all of this civil rights stuff started. It has done nothing but cause our great country trouble for the past 40 years.Noone is against civil rights. The problem lies with so many people who abuse civil rights for their own personal and nationwide agendas. This is a very very touchy subject. :( Yep, I agree with you...it's a "ME ME ME ME" society ..... :(They're not trying to take over the football team. The only ME ME ME that they are after is for a professional football team to be called something other than a racially derogatory term about their heritage.

Damned greedy Indians!

We ought to just take away everything they own and move them to the worst land in America.....

[3afan2K3]

6699 should be ROM he saifd the b word

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: 3afan2K3 ]</small>

[3ahunter2k4]

like i said two posts earlier, you don't get it and you probably never will.

[Ozzy]

3ahunter2k4:
ozzy seriously, you don't get it. this is a free country. the washington redskins are a franchise and this is a free enterprise system. You hit the nail on the head. It's all about $$$$. Piss on the real "Americans", anything for the almighty dollar.

[3ahunter2k4]

NFL football is all about money as all other pro sports, look at the contracts these guys sign. it is still the team's choice what to name themselves. i would not agree with a public school naming themselves redskins; that may be offensive some of those attending who have no choice but to go to school where they live. the american public does though have a choice to support the redskin football franchise.

[Ozzy]

but would they not support them whatever name they were called? why does it have to be something that offends an entire race of people?

[sinton66]

Trust me on this Ozzy, Native Americans have been called a lot worse then "Redskins". I doubt seriously very many of them even care about this. There are radical extremists in every race. One shouldn't draw the conclusion that they represent the entire race as a whole. And, before you ask, yes, I am part Choctaw, have lived near reservations, worked with Indian families, and am very sympathetic to their real causes.

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: sinton66 ]</small>

[3ahunter2k4]

thank you sinton66, that is how i feel. i agree with you somewhat ozzy, it is wrong in some ways to have that name, but that is their choice. if i were full indian and a great football player, i would probably refuse to play for them if i cared enough.. that might make them change it. if they want to change it i would respect them, i also respect the judge for ruling on what is right in this country (freedom of speech/press). it's their call, not ours or any native american's either.

[3ahunter2k4]

this reminds me that i wrote an article about this a couple years ago when i wrote for the school newspaper... i ended up getting in a little bit of trouble.

[Bandera YaYa]

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Bandera YaYa ]</small>

[Bandera YaYa]

Ozzy:
You people still don't get it. Nobody gives a damn if "Redskin" is offensive to you, unless you yourself are 100% Native American. It's offensive to THEM. I'm sure slave owners didn't take offense to others calling their workers the n-word. If it's offensive to an entire population that is being referred to, then it is wrong. It's our job, just as it was the job of the Civil Rights activists, to help stop it. The entire lawsuit over the matter was won by millionaires buying lawyers who could win a court case. It has nothing to do with doing what is right. It's that narrow-minded "white-skinned" attitude that has caused the problem, and then refuses to admit fault when it comes to a head.Whoa!..."white skinned" attitude??? Boy, is that a racist remark, or what? What fault are you saying us white skinned people need to admit to?
I want to know. Look, I dislike lawyers as much as the next person, and I don't doubt that there was some dirty dealing involved..somewhere, but don't turn this around and start slamming "white skinned" people....I am a white skinned person and I don't see where I am the cause of any problem ...so what do you want me to admit to?
You know, this is 2003 and I am so tired of being blamed for things that happened 200...100...50 years ago.....I have to deal with today and the past is the past, good or ugly, it's over. I;m not saying everything is rosy and there are no injustices in the world, but I think we would all be better off if we concentrated on "now" and learn from the past, but stop re-living it and rehashing and reqretting it. I am not racist so don't say that I am just because I am a "white skinned" person. I understang what you mean about something might be offensive to another..I find alot of things offensive, so I just choose not to have anything to do with what I consider to be such. The Native Americans that find offense with the team that calls themselves the Redskins can choose not to support them or can choose to speak out, but they do not have the choice to make them change their name, if they don't want to. Just my take.

[3ahunter2k4]

good points

[sinton66]

When you think about it, why aren't they challenging the Cleveland Indians? Native Americans aren't "Indians". That's just what that seagoing cross-dresser Christopher Columbus called them because he thought he was in India. I think a LOT of people in this country need to get a firm grip on reality.

[3ahunter2k4]

well the indians could just say they are talking about the indians from india...the real indians. they already changed teh funny red guy on the logo. man that indian guy was cool

[3ahunter2k4]

same here

[SintonFan]

Bandera YaYa:

Ozzy:
You people still don't get it. Nobody gives a damn if "Redskin" is offensive to you, unless you yourself are 100% Native American. It's offensive to THEM. I'm sure slave owners didn't take offense to others calling their workers the n-word. If it's offensive to an entire population that is being referred to, then it is wrong. It's our job, just as it was the job of the Civil Rights activists, to help stop it. The entire lawsuit over the matter was won by millionaires buying lawyers who could win a court case. It has nothing to do with doing what is right. It's that narrow-minded "white-skinned" attitude that has caused the problem, and then refuses to admit fault when it comes to a head.Whoa!..."white skinned" attitude??? Boy, is that a racist remark, or what? What fault are you saying us white skinned people need to admit to?
I want to know. Look, I dislike lawyers as much as the next person, and I don't doubt that there was some dirty dealing involved..somewhere, but don't turn this around and start slamming "white skinned" people....I am a white skinned person and I don't see where I am the cause of any problem ...so what do you want me to admit to?
You know, this is 2003 and I am so tired of being blamed for things that happened 200...100...50 years ago.....I have to deal with today and the past is the past, good or ugly, it's over. I;m not saying everything is rosy and there are no injustices in the world, but I think we would all be better off if we concentrated on "now" and learn from the past, but stop re-living it and rehashing and reqretting it. I am not racist so don't say that I am just because I am a "white skinned" person. I understang what you mean about something might be offensive to another..I find alot of things offensive, so I just choose not to have anything to do with what I consider to be such. The Native Americans that find offense with the team that calls themselves the Redskins can choose not to support them or can choose to speak out, but they do not have the choice to make them change their name, if they don't want to. Just my take.Nice take Ya Ya! I find myself thinking the same thing.

[SintonFan]

Ozzy:
but would they not support them whatever name they were called? why does it have to be something that offends an entire race of people?Ozzy, I think nobody knows how many of them are offended. Don't forget that this "entire race of people" live in separate nations for the most part. Not the biggest nations, but separate nontheless.

[3ahunter2k4]

good point

[3ahunter2k4]

besides some of them are more brown. i get sunburnt as all hell in the summer, so should i sue the washington football team?

[Bandera YaYa]

That's what I'm saying, Sinton66.....let's fight for something that's urgent, like the abused, homeless and hungry in our country.....we need to stop fighting for fighting's sake...it's become all to the norm.....it's really sad....millions are being wasted in courtrooms and infant children are dying from starvation.....where are our priorities??? :(

I've read some about life on these reservations and from what I've read..maybe...they should turn their attentions to improving things within the reservations....instead of taking up the cause of not wanting an NFL team to use the name of REdskins....I mean, I guess they want their hertiage respected, but I for one, would respect them more for what they could improve within their own community...(ie. education, alcohol abuse)....(this goes for any group of people or any organization)

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Bandera YaYa ]</small>

[sinton66]

My point exactly Ya Ya, they have far more serious things to worry about than what some football team in Washington calls itself. Life on the western reservations can be pretty bleak. Spend some time in Gallup New Mexico folks, and you'll figure it out pretty quickly.

[SintonFan]

Ahh, but Ya Ya and 66, what about all that casino money? When you've got money and become 'principled'? Of course it's their money, but it's gotta go somewhere...

[sinton66]

That's on the eastern res, not the western. Hard life out west. You need to be in Gallup on an early Sunday morning. It will open your eyes. Definitely not hard to tell where the money went.

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: sinton66 ]</small>

[Pandora]

Bandera YaYa:
[QUOTE]Whoa!..."white skinned" attitude??? Boy, is that a racist remark, or what? What fault are you saying us white skinned people need to admit to?
Sounds like you took offence to Ozzy calling you “white-skinned.” You think that maybe the Native Americans might feel the same way? I think you have just proven Ozzy’s point, although you don’t realize it.

[Ozzy]

Bandera YaYa:
That's what I'm saying, Sinton66.....let's fight for something that's urgent, like the abused, homeless and hungry in our country.....we need to stop fighting for fighting's sake...it's become all to the norm.....it's really sad....millions are being wasted in courtrooms and infant children are dying from starvation.....where are our priorities??? :(

I've read some about life on these reservations and from what I've read..maybe...they should turn their attentions to improving things within the reservations....instead of taking up the cause of not wanting an NFL team to use the name of REdskins....I mean, I guess they want their hertiage respected, but I for one, would respect them more for what they could improve within their own community...(ie. education, alcohol abuse)....(this goes for any group of people or any organization)How can we help the Native Americans improve their lives. Hmmm, let's see......How about for starters we don't use a racially degrading term to describe them. Don't you think that showing them just that little bit of respect would help improve their relationships with us? It's no wonder they don't want to be a part of "White America". We have to realize that Native Americans are in the poverty-stricken areas because that is where Americans made them go. We've done nothing since to rectify that situation. So to say that it is not your doing or your problem, you're right. But you can do something to help try to make things better. That's what I'm doing. And no, I have no Native American blood running through my veins. My ancestors were still in Europe during the western massacres. I just feel that it's time to step up to the plate and make a difference.

[sinton66]

I agree with you on one point, Ozzy. The Native Americans are the most downtrodden, most violated, and most discriminated against people on this continent. That is indeed shameful. Do you really think making the Redskins change their name and logo would make any difference whatsoever? Their problems are much more severe than this and are rooted in our government (which by the way has NOTHING to do with the Redskins football team). Governmental policy toward them hasn't changed in two hundred years, it is simply lip service. Every treaty ever made with them was broken by our government. Other races scream "discrimination" at the drop of a hat. They don't know the meaning of the word. When the US government sends it's army out to hunt you down and annihalate you, that's REAL discrimination.

Making the Redskins change their name and logo would simply be another empty gesture on a list of thousands of them. Kind of like trading worthless beads for Manhatten. It's not even a well-intentioned start.

[Ozzy]

I agree. So where do we start? Or do we even try? This is my last post on the subject.

[Gobbla2001]

Number one, we don't start with changing the name from Redskins to something else...

Here's a little example...

Description/Slang (AKA: Put down) for description

Hopefully you know some of the abbreviations...

White man or White-skin(ned)/Cracker
Brown man or Brown-Skinned/WB
Black man or Colored man/N-word
Yellow-skinned/Chink
Redskin/?????????????

Did you know how this all got brought up? A female activist with maybe .something % of Native American in her went to a reservation and tried to spark interest in changing the name... Why? Just so she could be an activist, they never rest, they have to stur something up ALWAYS... Just like the kids suing McDonald's because it makes 'em fat...

[BullFrog Dad]

Yankees OK(i.e. New York) Rebels NOT OK(i.e. Southwest) How come?

[booger1]

BullFrog Dad:
Yankees OK(i.e. New York) Rebels NOT OK(i.e. Southwest) How come?Ole Miss is the Rebels. I see no problem with that!

[Gobbla2001]

Rebels aren't really racist rednecks more than they just 'rebel' against society...

People enjoy being called rebels and having the flag on the back of their monster trucks, so I'd say it doesn't bother 'em...

[Phil C]

Seriously folks we do have more important problems in this country to worry about such as I have enough trouble trying to convince Sinton 66 and PPHS why they should watch and support soccer on tv and in the stands and why it is such a wonderful fantastic sport and why they should love it and --

[Phil C]

Oh and don't forget the problem of trying to get ESPN to answer Where's the CAT? And trying to get people to know another Cat (Cat Reddick of the USA Women's Soccer Team in the World Cup) and last but perhaps not least having to keep reminding people that THE SPURS WON THE 2003 NBA CHAMPIONSHIP BY BEATING THE NETS! BEST NBA SERIES WE EVER HAD!

:)

[Bandera YaYa]

Ozzy:

Bandera YaYa:
That's what I'm saying, Sinton66.....let's fight for something that's urgent, like the abused, homeless and hungry in our country.....we need to stop fighting for fighting's sake...it's become all to the norm.....it's really sad....millions are being wasted in courtrooms and infant children are dying from starvation.....where are our priorities??? :(



I've read some about life on these reservations and from what I've read..maybe...they should turn their attentions to improving things within the reservations....instead of taking up the cause of not wanting an NFL team to use the name of REdskins....I mean, I guess they want their hertiage respected, but I for one, would respect them more for what they could improve within their own community...(ie. education, alcohol abuse)....(this goes for any group of people or any organization)How can we help the Native Americans improve their lives. Hmmm, let's see......How about for starters we don't use a racially degrading term to describe them. Don't you think that showing them just that little bit of respect would help improve their relationships with us? It's no wonder they don't want to be a part of "White America". We have to realize that Native Americans are in the poverty-stricken areas because that is where Americans made them go. We've done nothing since to rectify that situation. So to say that it is not your doing or your problem, you're right. But you can do something to help try to make things better. That's what I'm doing. And no, I have no Native American blood running through my veins. My ancestors were still in Europe during the western massacres. I just feel that it's time to step up to the plate and make a difference.What I am trying to say is that why use colors at all to describe a group of "Americans"....you used "white skinned"....and that's Ok...my skin is white, but don't assume anything about me (that I have a "certain" attitude)because of it....you are lumping people together by the color of their skin, assuming we are all the same within that color group, and that's not right to do so.

I definitly agree with you Sinton about how horrible the "Indians" were treated by the government in the past.....they have been to hell and back. Yes the casinos bring in money (just like in Vegas) , but go see how their lives are compared to the owners of the casinos in Vegas....not quite the same....they have many, many serious problems....

And, I think that all the money being spent in litigation by them, could be better spent...on things that could really change their lives for the better.....Wanting respect is good, but I think more people would respect them for achiving a better way of life for them all....I mean, who gives a flip if the team ends up calling themselves the Washington Donkeys, when Native AMerican children are growing up alcoholics at age 12....We all need to think about what is really important....and it's simply a matter of survival for them, unfortunately...and that's very serious.

I know you obviously care about this issue and I respect you for that, and I do agree that they need help,.... I just don't think what some of them are fighting for will give them the help they need.....to simply live.

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Bandera YaYa ]</small>

[3ahunter2k4]

b-word

[Bandera YaYa]

3ahunter2k4:
b-wordWhat???? I didn't use any bad words that start with a "B"??

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Bandera YaYa ]</small>

[Bandera YaYa]

Pandora:

Bandera YaYa:
[QUOTE]Whoa!..."white skinned" attitude??? Boy, is that a racist remark, or what? What fault are you saying us white skinned people need to admit to?
Sounds like you took offence to Ozzy calling you “white-skinned.” You think that maybe the Native Americans might feel the same way? I think you have just proven Ozzy’s point, although you don’t realize it.Not so fast....I took offense to him assuming just because I have white skin, that I have a certain attitude about certain things.....BIG difference....if you can see it....

[sinton66]

How can we help? There are dozens of Native American charities we can contribute to. My favorites are the Native American Education Fund and the Native American Rights Fund. There are hundreds of Native American products like jewelery, blankets, pottery, porcelin dolls, kachinas, sand paintings, and yes, even music that we can buy. If you've never heard a handmade cedar flute played by an expert, you don't know what you have missed. Check out CD's by John Huling ("Spiritlands and Return to Spiritlands"), some of the most beautiful and peaceful music you will ever hear anywhere. You can probably find most of them on the web. Other artists like Carlos Nakai, Robert Mirabal, and many more. Attend their Pow-Wows held all across the nation in practically every state. Learn what you can from and about them. In other words, do more than pay lip service. Help support them in whatever they do to make money to simply exist. Most Native Americans that I know are far too proud to take hand-outs. They are a fascinating people of many nations and beliefs. Sorry for the soapbox, but I told you I am VERY sympathetic. wink

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: sinton66 ]</small>

[Bandera YaYa]

Good post, thanks for the info....I'm gonna check out the music you spoke about....