Better 5 Year Run? Carthage or West Orange-Stark

[Dawgs]

I ran across the 2014 4a DII state championship game today. WOS, with a sophomore QB, gave one of the all-time great 4a teams all they wanted that day. Change a few key plays and that game goes the other way.

Got me to thinking who has been better over the last 5 years. Mustangs or Dawgs? After looking at both teams run, it comes down to how much weight a state championship holds. Carthage had 3. WOS had 2. WOS leads in every other category.

Carthage is 61-13 over the last 5 years. WOS is 68-7. Carthage made 3 state championship appearances. WOS made 4. Carthage won 26 games in a row. WOS won 40. Carthage had an all-time great 4a (3a) offense in 2017. WOS had an all-time great 4a (3a) defense in 2016.

I’m a homer, but I gotta give it to the Mustangs. I hate to do it, but damn.

[Dawgs]

And Argyle has had a hell of a run the last 5 years. But with only 1 title, I put the other 2 just a little bit ahead of them. That’s the reason I didn’t mention them. They have had everything else.

[Tejastrue]

West Orange Stark!

[oldtownag]

How can you not include the last 10 years when talking Carthage Football?

[Dawgs]

How can you not include the last 10 years when talking Carthage Football?

Well you could, but then there would be no comparison. 5 years is very recent, and I had a program that compares really well for the purpose of a debate. But the site is pretty dead at this time of the year anyway. It was just for fun.

If we are comparing the last 10 years you have to basically compare Carthage to a couple other programs outside of 4a, and from all over the state. This is a historic last 10 years. If Surratt stays he has a chance at a bunch of records. Especially playoff records and championships. I mean at this pace would it be unrealistic for him to finish with 10 state titles? I don’t think so. Hell with what Carthage has coming up I can see 2 more in the next 3 years. If kids keep developing your looking at a 2017 type team next year in 2019.

[Saggy Aggie]

Personally, id rather go 3/3 in title games than 2/4 with a couple extra wins along the way.

Regardless, both have been ridiculous...

[d0tc0m]

This is a great conversation. Both have been on another level these past five years, for sure. You could argue they've been the only two TRULY elite programs in 4A for the past five years. Although, it'd be hard for me to leave Argyle out of that conversation, especially since they played for a title in 2013-15 and have been in the conversation every year since then as well. And, like you said for WOS, you look at a play here or there going the Eagles' way, and we're talking about a 3-peat for them instead of just one ring. And, hell, while we're at it, you could say if Celina's QB doesn't break his arm on the first series of the 2015 Div. II game, WOS might only have one ring in the past five years. If we stretched it back 10 years, there's no one close to Carthage, in my opinion. And the only comparison you could make to that would be Celina from about 1995-2008, with that last year being when the torch was sort of passed over to the Dawgs ... or when Dwight Smith single-handedly took it.


Obviously, none of that matters, though. Just fun discussion. Coming back around to Dawgs' original question, though, I think I'd take Carthage's five-year run over WOS's, simply for the rings aspect. But, I don't think any Mustangs fans would trade what they've had these past few years. It's been great to see them having so much success. For so many years, it seemed like they were just always on the cusp, deserving to be in the conversation, just never able to get over the hump. But, like Carthage, they've been living on the top for an extended period now.


Great topic, Dawgs!

[cowboyandchrist]

Dawg, have you seen or read about the newest D1 player for the Dawgs.
He is rated by 247 sports as the number 70 th best in Texas. He will be a junior at 6ft 5in and 315 pounds. He committed to Baylor after Sunday’s camp at Baylor.
Great article on him.
Add him to the three starters coming back bigger, stronger, and seasoned players, the Dawg Oline is going to bad to the bone.
Can’t wait to see the big Dawgs mash on the defense’s they face.
Let’s Go Dawgs!!!!
God Bless coaches, players, and fans.

[WOS87]

WO-S will hit their 400th win all-time this season... 42nd season ever (1977-2018)

Carthage hit win 400 in 1996... 73rd season ever (1924-1996)

Only team I can find to hit 400 quicker was Permian who did it in their 41st season (1959-1999)

Go backwards 20, 30 or 40 years from 2017 and WO-S still wins by far


Last 10 years

WO-S 117-19 86.0%
Carthage 125-24 83.9%

Yeah you have the titles over the past 10 years but that's pretty much the only stat you win at over that small window of a time period.

...and if you're gonna play the woulda coulda shoulda game dotcom, WOS could just as easily have won 4 straight with a correct call in the Gilmer game and a completed pass rather than an interception in the PG game.

[oldtownag]

See below. 6 in 10 years!

http://etsn.fm/clutch-drive-seven-takeaways-send-carthage-to-final-four-with-28-14-win-vs-west-orange-stark/

[Dawgs]

WO-S will hit their 400th win all-time this season... 42nd season ever (1977-2018)

Carthage hit win 400 in 1996... 73rd season ever (1924-1996)

Only team I can find to hit 400 quicker was Permian who did it in their 41st season (1959-1999)

Go backwards 20, 30 or 40 years from 2017 and WO-S still wins by far


Last 10 years

WO-S 117-19 86.0%
Carthage 125-24 83.9%

Yeah you have the titles over the past 10 years but that's pretty much the only stat you win at over that small window of a time period.

...and if you're gonna play the woulda coulda shoulda game dotcom, WOS could just as easily have won 4 straight with a correct call in the Gilmer game and a completed pass rather than an interception in the PG game.

You see I tried to give another program props. I had to do only 5 year window, and I have all the stats. I even gave the nod to WOS. And then somebody pulles out the ol’ win percentage and total wins.

Carthage is 6-6 in title games last 10 years. 6 for 7 overall. There is no comparison in 4a since 2008.

You put up a stat over 10 years that showed Carthage winning more games at a 2% less winning percentage. Hahaha. Carthage has won more games, won more titles, won more regional titles, played in more title games, and even beat WOS head to head. There is not a stat you could possibly show me that would make me think WOS has had a more successful 10 year run.

[Dawgs]

See below. 6 in 10 years!

http://etsn.fm/clutch-drive-seven-takeaways-send-carthage-to-final-four-with-28-14-win-vs-west-orange-stark/

Man I forgot WOS ran the ball 23 times for 38 yards. There is a stat for WOS87, lol. Carthage ran it 46 times for 244 yards.

[Dawgs]

To be honest WOS had to drop down to do what they did. No way if they play with us in R3 would they have had this run. It’s not a coincidence that WOS didn’t make a title game for 15 years, and then made 4 straight. R3 in 4a D2 is unbelievably weak. There is no team that compares to WOS.

Carthage will be down there next alignment. Give you guys some competition.

[jason]

You see I tried to give another program props. I had to do only 5 year window, and I have all the stats. I even gave the nod to WOS. And then somebody pulles out the ol’ win percentage and total wins.

Carthage is 6-6 in title games last 10 years. 6 for 7 overall. There is no comparison in 4a since 2008.

You put up a stat over 10 years that showed Carthage winning more games at a 2% less winning percentage. Hahaha. Carthage has won more games, won more titles, won more regional titles, played in more title games, and even beat WOS head to head. There is not a stat you could possibly show me that would make me think WOS has had a more successful 10 year run.

Would be interesting to see the records of the teams they beat - region 2 vs region 4 has to play into the quality of win %....

[Txbroadcaster]

Yeah you have the titles over the past 10 years but that's pretty much the only stat you win at over that small window of a time period.


Ehh kinda the biggest stat in the discussion LOL.

[YTBulldogs]

Good banter here to get them pre-season juices flowing. Both programs should be very proud.

"2-A-Days" just four days away. Gosh, today's kids would never hang with a real 2-A-Days.

Watch them Gob's this year WOS.

[Dawgs]

Ehh kinda the biggest stat in the discussion LOL.
But that not the only stat. More wins, more title games, more regional titles. I’m not sure how he made that post. 87 always has his ducks in a row, but I’m not sure about this one.

[buff4ever]

i am normally with WOS87, but over ten years I have to lean Carthage way.

Over 5 years I will lean the WOS way.

Neither school has anything to be ashamed of, that is for sure.

How many times did they play each other in last 10 years, I am guessing just once?

[Dawgs]

Would be interesting to see the records of the teams they beat - region 2 vs region 4 has to play into the quality of win %....

Agree. I would put Carthage win quality over the last 5 or 10 seasons against anybody. Look, Carthage gets beat. That’s a known. We never go 10-0. Schedule is too tough year in and year out. Plus historically R3 has been very tough. Before the split R3 was considered the toughest. Then after the split until this year 4a D1 R3 was considered the toughest. That has changed now with a loaded R2. I think R2 in both classes is head and shoulders above the rest after the current alignment.

But historically Carthage has played in the toughest region, and played in ETX who has had the most success at this level over the last 15 years. Don’t know how anybody could argue a tougher schedule. At the end of the season almost every year Carthage is 1-5 toughest SOS in the state.

[Dawgs]

i am normally with WOS87, but over ten years I have to lean Carthage way.

Over 5 years I will lean the WOS way.

Neither school has anything to be ashamed of, that is for sure.

How many times did they play each other in last 10 years, I am guessing just once?
I’m with you. I am normally onboard with 87 on just about everything. The last 5 years even though Carthage has won more titles, WOS has done enough everywhere else to get the nod. Over 10 years it’s not close.

Yes only met just once. Before the split we both played in R3, but only got a chance to play once unfortunately.

[oldtownag]

i am normally with WOS87, but over ten years I have to lean Carthage way.

Over 5 years I will lean the WOS way.

Neither school has anything to be ashamed of, that is for sure.

How many times did they play each other in last 10 years, I am guessing just once?


I’m with you. I am normally onboard with 87 on just about everything. The last 5 years even though Carthage has won more titles, WOS has done enough everywhere else to get the nod. Over 10 years it’s not close.

Yes only met just once. Before the split we both played in R3, but only got a chance to play once unfortunately.

Yall are just being nice. Carthage is, was, and likely will be better than WOS.

[d0tc0m]

WO-S will hit their 400th win all-time this season... 42nd season ever (1977-2018)

Carthage hit win 400 in 1996... 73rd season ever (1924-1996)

Only team I can find to hit 400 quicker was Permian who did it in their 41st season (1959-1999)

Go backwards 20, 30 or 40 years from 2017 and WO-S still wins by far


Last 10 years

WO-S 117-19 86.0%
Carthage 125-24 83.9%

Yeah you have the titles over the past 10 years but that's pretty much the only stat you win at over that small window of a time period.

...and if you're gonna play the woulda coulda shoulda game dotcom, WOS could just as easily have won 4 straight with a correct call in the Gilmer game and a completed pass rather than an interception in the PG game.


Well, WOS87, I think you would have needed much more than a completed pass against PG to win, but I have no qualms with arguing you could have/should have beaten Gilmer in '14. I've said that many times. I think WOS was the better team, actually. But they just didn't have the firepower to finish the job in the second half. But, you're right, that call right before the break completely changed things.


Apart from that, I'm sure Carthage fans would gladly concede all the stat categories you want, because, at the end of the day, they've got all the hardware. I'm not saying WOS fans should be ashamed of anything they've accomplished, because they definitely should not. It's been a fun ride for the Mustang faithful. But their run does not compare to Carthage. And like has been said in this post already, no one's run does in the past decade.

[ctown81]

WO-S will hit their 400th win all-time this season... 42nd season ever (1977-2018)

Carthage hit win 400 in 1996... 73rd season ever (1924-1996)

Only team I can find to hit 400 quicker was Permian who did it in their 41st season (1959-1999)

Go backwards 20, 30 or 40 years from 2017 and WO-S still wins by far


Last 10 years

WO-S 117-19 86.0%
Carthage 125-24 83.9%

Yeah you have the titles over the past 10 years but that's pretty much the only stat you win at over that small window of a time period.

...and if you're gonna play the woulda coulda shoulda game dotcom, WOS could just as easily have won 4 straight with a correct call in the Gilmer game and a completed pass rather than an interception in the PG game.

The Won/Loss stat doesn't really matter to Carthage. There's a chance we could start the season 0-3 and still have a shot to be at the big game. Let's just be honest, we've played a tougher schedule in the past 5 years. I think Carthage edges you guys out. If titles were not at factor, it'd definitely be you guys. As for Argyle, it seems every year they're great they end up meeting a special team i.e. La Vega.

[Dawgs]

The Won/Loss stat doesn't really matter to Carthage. There's a chance we could start the season 0-3 and still have a shot to be at the big game. Let's just be honest, we've played a tougher schedule in the past 5 years. I think Carthage edges you guys out. If titles were not at factor, it'd definitely be you guys. As for Argyle, it seems every year they're great they end up meeting a special team i.e. La Vega.

SOS last 5 years is not even close. Carthage has played a schedule probably twice as difficult. WOS doesn’t play a tough game from the time district starts until about the 4th round of the playoffs.

[WOS87]

You guys are hilarious.

I go away for a few months and almost die and this is the return party I get. I have no argument with Carthage and the last 10 years. Just trying to rile you up in my feeble state and I did so yay me lol.

I expect WO-S to do one of three (maybe four) things this season. 1. Surprise everyone including themselves and beat ranked Newton, Crosby, Jasper, and Silsbee and breeze to the State Finals for the 5th straight year, 2. Lose to several of the above four and still manage to make it to the State Finals for the 5th straight year, 3. Do reasonably well and complete a 35th consecutive non-losing season. 4. WO-S will smile sadly if R4 El Campo were to somehow pull out yet another win over Carthage. WO-S is 8-1 in Semis. Carthage has some major catching up to do in that stat.

Things that are guaranteeed to happen: Carthage will be a non-issue in our season. We will play game #500 and be crowned the winningest program in the state even if we start 0-7. Everyone will survive and be okay and I will still be your friend.

[WOS87]

SOS last 5 years is not even close. Carthage has played a schedule probably twice as difficult. WOS doesn’t play a tough game from the time district starts until about the 4th round of the playoffs.

:fnypost:


I beg to differ. In the past 5 years we’ve lost to 3 state champions, beaten state finalist and semifinalist Kennedale twice and played several schools with more than double or triple our enrollment (Richmond Foster, Nederland, PN-G). What have your scores been vs Silsbee compared to ours? We’re playing 5A Nederland and Crosby and ranked Newton, Silsbee and Jasper all in the first 7 games this season. We don’t choose our playoff opponents.

[ctown81]

:fnypost:


I beg to differ. In the past 5 years we’ve lost to 3 state champions, beaten state finalist and semifinalist Kennedale twice and played several schools with more than double or triple our enrollment (Richmond Foster, Nederland, PN-G). What have your scores been vs Silsbee compared to ours? We’re playing 5A Nederland and Crosby and ranked Newton, Silsbee and Jasper all in the first 7 games this season. We don’t choose our playoff opponents.

In the last 5 seasons you honestly think you guys have had a tough regular season schedule? I'll give you Kennedale. I usually take your post in high regards but this is getting ridiculous. How can you even compare this year's schedule to Carthage? Have you been to LL hanging out in Colorado lately?

[Dawgs]

In the last 5 seasons you honestly think you guys have had a tough regular season schedule? I'll give you Kennedale. I usually take your post in high regards but this is getting ridiculous. How can you even compare this year's schedule to Carthage? Have you been to LL hanging out in Colorado lately?

I am wondering the same thing.

[Dawgs]

:fnypost:


I beg to differ. In the past 5 years we’ve lost to 3 state champions, beaten state finalist and semifinalist Kennedale twice and played several schools with more than double or triple our enrollment (Richmond Foster, Nederland, PN-G). What have your scores been vs Silsbee compared to ours? We’re playing 5A Nederland and Crosby and ranked Newton, Silsbee and Jasper all in the first 7 games this season. We don’t choose our playoff opponents.

Lol. Carthage plays #9 Marshall, #3 Gilmer, #5 PG, #8 LE, #8 Hendo, #11 Kilgore. Year in and year out Carthage plays the toughest schedule in the state. Plus have played in the DOD and in the toughest region in the state in their division over the last 5 years (until this year, R2 is the toughest).

Silsbee? Ok, I’ll bite. I think you are going with this to try to make the point that WOS was better than Carthage in 16’. I got no problem admitting that. But since you asked. Carthage beat Silsbee 64-36 in 17’, 34-30 in 16’, 54-40 in 15’ and 49-6 in 13’. Outscored them 201 - 112 (+89). WOS beat Silsbee 34-17 in 17’, 51-2 in 16’, 49-28 in 15’, and 27-0 in 13’. Outscored them 161-42 (+119). Looks bout the same to me.

Over the last 5 years Carthage has beat Navasota (twice), WOS, Stafford (twice), China Spring, Abilene Wylie, La Vega, Kennedale, LE, Gilmer, Henderson, Kilgore, etc. That is a who’s who list of 4a teams.

You are usually spot on. But you are way off here. You would find pretty much nobody that would agree with this post.

[Dawgs]

WO-S is 8-1 in Semis. Carthage has some major catching up to do in that stat.

Carthage is 7-2 in the semi’s. Wouldn’t say “major catching up to do”, lol.

Welcome back man.

[Old Tiger]

Carthage. Titles don’t lie.

[cowboyandchrist]

Here is one for you stat guys.
The Dawgs are 58 and 1 in their last 59 games.

[waterboy]

I have to agree with Old Tiger on this one. Titles don't lie. Carthage has more titles despite having a more difficult schedule. I don't think winning percentage carries nearly as much weight as titles.

Both of these teams have had amazing runs, and nothing can take that away from them. There's a whole LOT of teams that would absolutely love to have runs like that.