If you were the coach, what would you do?

[PAINTBALL]

This is an abstract question which is not intended to relate to any team, coach, or district. I just think it is an interesting topic for debate.

Assume that you are the coach of the second largest team in your district. You have district won before your last game. Your last game is with the largest school in your district. If you win, the largest school will finish 4th in your district meaning you will advance in the playoff's in division 1. If you lose, the biggest school will finish 3rd in your district meaning you will advance in division 2. In looking at the other teams in each division, your best chance to advance far into the playoff's and even possibly win State is in division 2. Do you try to win the game or not? If you want your kids to lose the game, how do you get that done without seeming dishonest?

<small>[ September 26, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: PAINTBALL ]</small>

[Commerce Fan]

Your not much of a coach and you are not much of a promoter of your team. If you can win your district outright why do you think that 1 schedule for the playoffs would be any easier. my thought is take em as they come and leave em laying where thay fall but NEVER EVER GIVE UP! TIGERS NEVER QUIT

[Gobbla2001]

Win it...

Always 'try' to beat a team, no matter which division you're in and what your chances are...

[seasick4]

That is ridiculous to even think about that....how stupid

[CatsDen]

Play to win every game. Anything less would be cowardly and definitely raises questions about a coach's integrity.

[slpybear the bullfan]

Play to win...

[The Old One]

It is rare that I come across a regular poster and think to myself...'stupidity'

This post is rediculous. Anyone associated with this sport should feel the same.

There is no question here...none.

[Old Dog]

In my extreme bias opinion, if he goes for anything but the win, he should be fired never to be allowed to coach again. As someone so aptly puts it on this board, "that's just my take"!

Our kids don't see enough integrity in action as it is......so show them some and do the right thing.

[PAINTBALL]

A debate should have both sides expressed, so for the purpose of debate, here is a possible speach a coach under these circumtances may give his kids:

"Boys, we have district won. All of you have bumps and bruises that need to heal before the playoff's and I don't want to risk injury to my starters. For this reason, I'm going to play my substitues this game. Not only will this help- next year's team, but it will give you starters much needed rest and time to heal. Don't worry about this week, think of the playoff's. That's what is important."

[Mid80'sTarpon]

Win it and if you go Div 1 that's one less playoff game to the State Championship.

[thunder]

paint dude you have won in your attempt to raise some eyebrows, go for every win it keeps you in stride.

[zeke]

<small>[ November 10, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: zeke ]</small>

[Phil C]

Paint has a good point. I remember once when the Cowboys were already in the playoffs before the last game with the Redskins one year and the game as far as Dallas was concerned was essentially meaningless. Dallas did not even try to win it and played second stringers and let their vets rest - especially the ones who could have played if needed so why take a chance. The Redskins won the game by about 40 to 0.

[Gobbla2001]

It's fine for the NFL, but those are grown men, on the high school level you're still dealing with a lot of kids...

A lot of coaches would prefer playing their first teamers as much as possible...

Giving those first teamers a week off really isn't that good, because the transition from district to the playoffs should always be connected with some momentum...

[dog92]

Come on be honest. Many of you are letting your morals get in the way of your true feelings. You know you would, in your heart, try to put your team in a situation where they could go deeper in the playoffs. Many of you may be the type that you are content just to get in the playoffs. What if you are at a school that is half or less than half the size of some of these Div. I powerhouses that should be in another classification. What would you do? Regional Champs looks alot better than District Champs.

[thunder]

is the prize greater knowing for a fact that you have beaten the best.

[Gobbla2001]

But what if you were upset in the first round of the division you thought was going to be easy?

All of that losing for nothing...

[dog92]

**** happens! You have to play the percentages.

[3afan]

easy - you WIN the game then get ready for your 1st playoff opponent

[Gobbla2001]

Fact is you're working with kids who came out to win, not to lose... Give them every chance to win a ball-game...

Number 1 the kids will like you more

Number 2 you won't get fired and your fans will be happier at your first playoff game

Number 3 this isn't like the nfl where some athletes have over 10 years to win, most of the high school kids get about 3 years to play on varsity... Let 'em win all that they can...

[Gobbla2001]

And another thing...

What does it tell your players in the end when they figure out WHY you wanted them to lose...

'Oh, so coach doesn't think we're good enough to beat SoAndSo'...

Coaching is not only about winning, but about teaching lessons... I don't think one of those lessons should be 'Back down'...

<small>[ September 26, 2003, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Gobbla2001 ]</small>

[Gobbla2001]

AND YET ANOTHER THING...

What about that other team NOT involved in the game who is busting their butt to get into the playoffs... Say they win their game and are relying on the game your boys are playing... You not only put yourself in Division 2, but you also cost that other team a playoff spot... I don't think that's fair to ANY of the teams involved...

[X21AAAPlayer]

Here's something I dont beleive anyone brought up. What if that 4th place finisher puts a whoopin on your team with their best players. Then my friend you will realize that throwing a game is completely idiotic and you must strive to win everything. Winning boosts players spirits for the next game.

[Commerce Fan]

dog92:
Come on be honest. Many of you are letting your morals get in the way of your true feelings. You know you would, in your heart, try to put your team in a situation where they could go deeper in the playoffs. Many of you may be the type that you are content just to get in the playoffs. What if you are at a school that is half or less than half the size of some of these Div. I powerhouses that should be in another classification. What would you do? Regional Champs looks alot better than District Champs.If you have ever played any game then you know that win or lose the only champion is the one who played the best he could play and had no regrets. On paper it looks good but in the hearts of the team it is total destruction. You will always know yourself as a quitter. NEVER NEVER NEVER it's all about the competition

[PAINTBALL]

Assume you are ranked 15th in state. Your first payoff game in Div 1 will be against the #1 ranked team. Your next game against the #2 rated team etc. all the way to the final game. In div. 2 you don't ever have to play anyone ranked higher then you. Does this change anyone's opinion?

[xlr8tor]

Seems to me this question is the old question of "Which is more important, the battle or the war?" Personally I can see resting needed starters due to injuries, bumps, and bruises; but would be hesitant to lay out first-stringers just for an easier schedule. Just my take!

[Gobbla2001]

Nope, it doesn't...

Rankings are people's opinions, their opinions aren't facts...

What about the team you LET beat you, they didn't EARN that playoff spot...

It's just rediculous...

If we have to play the number 1 team and LOSE to the number 1 team all it means is we were beaten by who everyone says it the best... If they win state, oh well, the title had to go through my team...

[bd0707]

Play to win or stay home.

[PAINTBALL]

What if the captains of the team came came to you and said. "Coach, we don't think we have a chance to beat X next week, but we think we can win State in Div 2 and State means a lot to us. Is it wrong if we intentionally throw this game?" How would you respond?

[Gobbla2001]

Sit down and talk to the team for a LONGGGGGGGG time... Figure out everything you need to know and then make your decision...

Personally, my team captain would be the kind not to back down from a fight, so I'm sure my captain wouldn't want that...

[BH_146]

First, in making the decision to lose the game, you have lost it all before the game is played. Your intentions will be clear as glass. People will always doubt your decisions.

Second, if your captains are your leaders, you are going to lose and it doesn't matter the division.

[PAINTBALL]

How many agree with this statement:

There is a big difference in being a coward and being realistic.

[eagle_fan]

IF YALL WAS FROM NEWTON WHICH IS ONE OF THE SMALLEST SCHOOLS IN 3A YALL WOULD BE LIKE US.. PLAY ANYONE ANYTIME AND HAVE CONFIDENCE YOU WAS GONNA WIN . THEN YOU WOULDNT HAVE TO WORRY BOUT THESE KINDA QUESTIONS LOL

[FBmania]

Strap it on and play the game to win! Let the chips fall! Real gridiron gladiators know no other way!

[bulldogman]

This is rediculous. They play the games because anything can happen. By the way the crowning acheivement is never gained by dodging opponents. What high school athlete wants to spend the rest of his life knowing that the only reason he won state in div. 2 was because he threw the game that would put him in div.1? Sorry I still think character is the crowning achievement in any sport. All of these kids who play with heart and passion are champions in my book.

[PAINTBALL]

Debate was my favorite non-sport competition in high school and my only non-intermural competition in college. It is educational and fun when done correctly. It teaches a person to think rationally, see both sides of an issue, and accept peoples' opinions with respect. Comments like "this is stupid", etc. have no place in a debate. For one thing in a debate competition, you never know which side you are going to debate before you go on the stage.

This is just an abstract issue listed for debate only.

What if the enrollment in your school was less then half of most of the other schools advancing in div 1. Would this change anyone's decision as coach?

[crunkandfocused]

PAINTBALL:
What if the captains of the team came came to you and said. "Coach, we don't think we have a chance to beat X next week, but we think we can win State in Div 2 and State means a lot to us. Is it wrong if we intentionally throw this game?" How would you respond?Then that team needs to find some new captains. When I played, I NEVER heard any player on the team doubt our teams capabilities. Every player went into every game thinking only positive thoughts. Nobody ever thought, "I don't think we can win this game."

As for the topic, I think the coach should go into the game to win. It's all about pride ya know?

[PAINTBALL]

With that concept, a team should never punt the ball. Isn't that admiting that your offense cannot make the necessay yards for a first down. Is that not admiting defeat by the offense?

<small>[ September 27, 2003, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: PAINTBALL ]</small>

[PAINTBALL]

How many agree with this statement:

The purpose of the UIL establishing Division 1 and Division 2 Brackets for the playoff was so the smaller schools in each classification had a chance to advance in the playoffs and maybe even win state.

[PAINTBALL]

What if everyone all season had assumed that the biggest school in your district would advance in the playoffs and all the town, parents, administration, and kids had talked about was how good the chances were that you would win state that year, because you were the highest ranked school in div, 2. What if your town had never won a playoff game in the history of the school. Would this change anyone's mind?

[Owen B]

If for no other reason, throwing that game would be wrong because it would deprive the team that earned third place its rightful playoff spot. No selfish gain could offset that injustice, IMO.

[X21AAAPlayer]

PAINTBALL:
What if everyone all season had assumed that the biggest school in your district would advance in the playoffs and all the town, parents, administration, and kids had talked about was how good the chances were that you would win state that year, because you were the highest ranked school in div, 2. What if your town had never won a playoff game in the history of the school. Would this change anyone's mind?WHAT IF.... You throw the game. The fans hate you but you have a good shot at division 2. Then you get beat badly in the first round of the playoffs in division to. That is a definite possibility and would ruin the coach's reputation. Throw the game but get beat first round. Ever think of that?

[PAINTBALL]

X21AAAPlayer:

PAINTBALL:
What if everyone all season had assumed that the biggest school in your district would advance in the playoffs and all the town, parents, administration, and kids had talked about was how good the chances were that you would win state that year, because you were the highest ranked school in div, 2. What if your town had never won a playoff game in the history of the school. Would this change anyone's mind?WHAT IF.... You throw the game. The fans hate you but you have a good shot at division 2. Then you get beat badly in the first round of the playoffs in division to. That is a definite possibility and would ruin the coach's reputation. Throw the game but get beat first round. Ever think of that?You have probably never participated in debate competition. In debate competition, the Judges usually allow the result that will most likely occur in real life occur or at least close to it. Also, the person running the debate make the facts, not the contestant.

[landries]

you have to try to win. that's sorry.

[X21AAAPlayer]

PAINTBALL:

X21AAAPlayer:

PAINTBALL:
What if everyone all season had assumed that the biggest school in your district would advance in the playoffs and all the town, parents, administration, and kids had talked about was how good the chances were that you would win state that year, because you were the highest ranked school in div, 2. What if your town had never won a playoff game in the history of the school. Would this change anyone's mind?WHAT IF.... You throw the game. The fans hate you but you have a good shot at division 2. Then you get beat badly in the first round of the playoffs in division to. That is a definite possibility and would ruin the coach's reputation. Throw the game but get beat first round. Ever think of that?You have probably never participated in debate competition. In debate competition, the Judges usually allow the result that will most likely occur in real life occur or at least close to it. Also, the person running the debate make the facts, not the contestant.The most realistic outcome is that if a coach is that dumb to throw a game.. He will get beat. Regardless forget debate. Play by morals.

[Gobbla2001]

You punt the ball to be safe...

You don't see a team down by 7 points with 2 minutes or less on the clock punt the ball on 4th and ten, do you?

The UIL's also considering adding more teams into the playoffs, they just want everyone to have a 'fair' oppurtunity...

[holdem]

The question does point out the current "meaninglessness" of a district championship. It used to mean something and now we're asking about losing a game to possibly improve your playoff schedule. (Ex: I don't think Newton will try to come in 3rd so they can avoid meeting up with Marlin in week 2 of the playoffs)
If we keep this 3 team playoff the District Champ should get a reward like a first round bye. UIL screwed up the best system when it went from 2 playoff teams to 3 and decided to go with this big school - small school crap.

If you throw the game I hope it bites you with a 1st round playoff loss to that team you think will be "easier" to beat. Nothing's easy in the playoffs and I want momentum going in - not a loss that I designed for my team! Stupid gamble in my opinion.

[holdem]

PAINTBALL:
How many agree with this statement:

The purpose of the UIL establishing Division 1 and Division 2 Brackets for the playoff was so the smaller schools in each classification had a chance to advance in the playoffs and maybe even win state.1989 was the first year to experiment with your stated idea in 5A.
Result: Big School Winner - Marshall (1800 students)
Regular School Winner - Aldine (3500 students)

In 1990 they tried to "fix" what happened by changing the name from "Big School and Regular School" to "Div. I and Div.II"
Same Result: "Div. I" Big School Winner - Killeen (2800 students)
"Div. II" Small School Winner - Odessa Permian (3500 students)

The purpose of UIL adding teams and divisions is that more playoff teams = more games which = more reveune for the UIL. See if you can find out the % of the gate that goes to the UIL and realize that by adding a playoff team from each division they created approx. 124 more playoff games to pull money from (315 playoff games in '89 and around 440 games this year). Simple economics not a noble attempt to "right a wrong".

In summation, I disagree with your statement and await your rebuttle.

[PAINTBALL]

holdem:

PAINTBALL:
How many agree with this statement:

The purpose of the UIL establishing Division 1 and Division 2 Brackets for the playoff was so the smaller schools in each classification had a chance to advance in the playoffs and maybe even win state.1989 was the first year to experiment with your stated idea in 5A.
Result: Big School Winner - Marshall (1800 students)
Regular School Winner - Aldine (3500 students)

In 1990 they tried to "fix" what happened by changing the name from "Big School and Regular School" to "Div. I and Div.II"
Same Result: "Div. I" Big School Winner - Killeen (2800 students)
"Div. II" Small School Winner - Odessa Permian (3500 students)

The purpose of UIL adding teams and divisions is that more playoff teams = more games which = more reveune for the UIL. See if you can find out the % of the gate that goes to the UIL and realize that by adding a playoff team from each division they created approx. 124 more playoff games to pull money from (315 playoff games in '89 and around 440 games this year). Simple economics not a noble attempt to "right a wrong".

In summation, I disagree with your statement and await your rebuttle.Thank you for participating in the debate. Your response was well thought out presented in a clear and concise manner. Good job.

[PAINTBALL]

All of the facts that I intend to add to the senerio are now listed. As sports reporter for the weekly newspaper of town Neverwonaplayoffgame I will be filing a end of the season article on how your season has been preceived by the local newspaper, after interviews with the coaches, players,parents, administrators, and regular fans. To do this correctly, I really should write an article on each coach, but time does not allow. I will probably just write two articles, one for each side of the issue referring to statements from the different coaches.

If you wish to add some statements for the article, change your position after all the facts are in,or participate for the first time in this debate please do so by sunday night. Remember, this is just for fun, but can also be educational.

[PAINTBALL]

I have now written the articles. I hope you find the informstive in some way

[landries]

no, your name is paintball.

[PAINTBALL]

ttt

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: PAINTBALL ]</small>

[PAINTBALL]

The articles are listed as Neverwonaplayoffgame Article 1 and Neverwonaplayoffgame Article 2

[keep_it_real]

you would never try to lose, you should believe your team will win against anyone reguardless, and in the past few years up until maybe the last 2, division 1 teams werent necessarally the best teams

[PAINTBALL]

keep_it_real:
you would never try to lose, you should believe your team will win against anyone reguardless, and in the past few years up until maybe the last 2, division 1 teams werent necessarally the best teamsDid you read the 2 articles I posted setting out both sides of the argument? What do you think about playing the odds to achieve what your town has been hoping for, to at least win a playoff game. Do you think that a team that goes deep in the playoffs would have a better team the next year then if they lost their first playoff game because the extra weeks of practice gives that team an advantage over the teams that had to quit?
Thank you for your post. I'm just curious if you disagree with the Mathmatician in my articles if you read them.

[PAINTBALL]

Commerce Fan:
Your not much of a coach and you are not much of a promoter of your team. If you can win your district outright why do you think that 1 schedule for the playoffs would be any easier. my thought is take em as they come and leave em laying where thay fall but NEVER EVER GIVE UP! TIGERS NEVER QUITI agree that winning is important, but I believe a winning tradition is more important. There are many reasons that the same teams always seem to advance in the playoffs year after year. To sacrifice 1 game for the possibility of turning your town into one of those with a winning tradition makes sense to me.

Please read all the other post and points made in my two mock articles before replying.

[PAINTBALL]

seasick4:
That is ridiculous to even think about that....how stupidCalling someone stupid and someone's idea ridiculous is childish. I have taken the time to write 2 mock articles on this subject to point out why there are 2 sides to the argument.

Please read all the other post and points made in my two mock articles before replying.

[PAINTBALL]

The Old One:
It is rare that I come across a regular poster and think to myself...'stupidity'

This post is rediculous. Anyone associated with this sport should feel the same.

There is no question here...none.My reply above to seasick4 also applies to you. Please take the same action that I asked of seasick. If people don't realise it I am making a challenge and willing to discuss this subject. In advance I took time to explain both sides of the issue and even gave examples of the types of professions of people that might think differently then you.

[PAINTBALL]

Old Dog:
In my extreme bias opinion, if he goes for anything but the win, he should be fired never to be allowed to coach again. As someone so aptly puts it on this board, "that's just my take"!

Our kids don't see enough integrity in action as it is......so show them some and do the right thing.Please tell me why you think there would be a lack of integrity of someone who thought that it made more sense to go far in the playoffs then to win one meaningless game.

Please read all the other post and points made in my two mock articles before replying.

[PAINTBALL]

CatsDen:
Play to win every game. Anything less would be cowardly and definitely raises questions about a coach's integrity.Please explain why a coach who wants to play the odds and take his kids far into the playoffs is a coward.

Please read all the other post and articles before replying.

[PAINTBALL]

crunkandfocused:

PAINTBALL:
What if the captains of the team came came to you and said. "Coach, we don't think we have a chance to beat X next week, but we think we can win State in Div 2 and State means a lot to us. Is it wrong if we intentionally throw this game?" How would you respond?Then that team needs to find some new captains. When I played, I NEVER heard any player on the team doubt our teams capabilities. Every player went into every game thinking only positive thoughts. Nobody ever thought, "I don't think we can win this game."

As for the topic, I think the coach should go into the game to win. It's all about pride ya know?Kids don't come to a coach and discuss an issue like this without discussing it first with their parents. That is why I made the parents of yor captains in my mock articles an attorney(If it's legal its o. k.) a mathmatician(play the odds) and a business man (don't pass the buck). These are the types of professions that in my opinion would probably most seriously favor the concept of losing the one game for the best chance to win state.

Please read all prion post and the two mock articles before replying.

[PAINTBALL]

CatsDen:
Play to win every game. Anything less would be cowardly and definitely raises questions about a coach's integrity.Please explain why it is cowardly and shows lack of integrity to scrafice 1 game that means nothing to increase your odds to win state, especially if the town has never won a playoff game. A coach might feel that it is more important to give the players and the town a winning tradition to build on rather then buck the odds.

Please read all other post and the 2 mock articles before replying.

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: PAINTBALL ]</small>

[BH_146]

PAINTBALL,

You are "Ghost Dancing" a subject. It is all contrived. You start out with suppositions in which you want people give their honest opinions. And when the do, you seem to take offense. Now that it has played out, you actually believe what you write.

And, oh by the way, read the history before you reply.

[PAINTBALL]

BH_146:
PAINTBALL,

You are "Ghost Dancing" a subject. It is all contrived. You start out with suppositions in which you want people give their honest opinions. And when the do, you seem to take offense. Now that it has played out, you actually believe what you write.

And, oh by the way, read the history before you reply.You misunderstand my intentions. This was posted for fun because I do believe that there are two sides to the issue. I was called stupid by certain people. I wrote the mock article to point out the two sides of the issue.

Burnet has an off week this week and I'm getting bored reading the same old crude. I'm trying to get these people who called me stupid back into a debate. If they want to ignore me then as far as I'm concerned they would be cowards. I don't take offense with people giving their opinions, but I do take offense when someone infers or outright says I'm stupid. If they don't respond shortly then I'm going to post another post making a direct challenge to them bt name.

[dwhite_eaglesfan]

To be the best you have to beat the best. Never back into anything.