Possible new 3A powerhouse

[JasperDog94]

I've heard rumblings about West Orange Stark dropping down to 3A next year. I know you never know what UIL will do with realignment, but man! That would make East Texas schools a perenial favorite.

For those of you who don't know, West Orange Stark won 2 4A state titles in the 80's. (pre DI and DII) They still have the same head coach, Dan Hooks. He's had his share of UIL violations, but is still around and is a big threat in 4A. I hate to say it, but if they move down to 3A, Jasper may no longer be the biggest threat coming out of East Texas.

Opinions?

[Old Cardinal]

Right on '94, "Dangerous Dan" and the guys are coming down, it would appear. The shipyards have layed off and the WO-S District has down-sized along with it. They will bounce some heads allright. They will be a big 3A that can beat like Bay City last year! They have a can-do attitude. Hooks is a real trip, but he can get his kids up for any big ballgame....I wonder if it was "politically incorrect" to say they had to down-size?

[Bulldog92]

I actually hope West Orange does drop down and that they are in the same district with Jasper again. When I was growing up, that was the biggest rivalry in Southeast Texas and I'm sure that it's still that way in the minds of Jasper fans especially. Silsbee would be a strong 3A school too if they ever dropped. Imagine a district with these four schools as a part of it: Jasper, West Orange, Silsbee, and Bridge City. That would be something reminiscent of the old days. :D

<small>[ August 13, 2003, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Bulldog92 ]</small>

[JasperDog94]

Ouch! What a district. Bridge City, WOS, Silsbee, and Jasper. Go ahead and throw Newton in there. We'd all kill each other before the postseason began. But the winner would be well seasoned. :D

[Bulldog92]

Newton will probably drop to 2A after this year, but they will run roughshod all over 2A.

[xlr8tor]

AWWW MAN! I have been noticing that Kountze keeps just barely making the 3A cut, and was hoping with the next realignment they could get a break and maybe get a decent thing going with their football team. But if Newton drops...well, maybe they could shoot for second or third, (possibly 4th since the UIL seems intent on letting everybody in the playoffs). Just my take!

[j_dog]

I like that district for Jasper. They probably would no longer be the largest school in the district so possibly could make the playoffs in division II. That should warm the hearts of a few people! wink

[Jacket2000]

WOS might have a little more competition in 3a than they think. It also looks as if Stephenvile might be spendin' a year or two in 3a in the near future.
J2K

[TarponFanInNorthTexas]

How in the world would Stephenville drop down? Don't they have 1,100 or so students???

I know WO-Stark, and Silsbee are right at the cutoff and are likely to drop down to 3A, but Stephenville?? Is there something going on in Stephenville that i'm not aware of that is making people leave?

Oh yeah, should Newton drop down into 2A, that should all but guarantee them a 2A Div. 1 (or 3A Div. 3, whatever you prefer to call it) state title.

[Jacket2000]

Stephenvile hovers around that 950 mark. They had an abnormally large class of freshmen in 2000. Last I heard, they had around 960 last fall. I dont think they'll spend very long in 3a, but it's definately possible for them to drop down for a year or so.
They're population isn't shriking, but it's not growing either. So, when a small class comes through, it could lower their enrollment just enough to get them under the ceiling untill a larger class comes in.
J2K

[exbccards76'smom]

Old Cardinal:
Right on '94, "Dangerous Dan" and the guys are coming down, it would appear. The shipyards have layed off and the WO-S District has down-sized along with it. They will bounce some heads allright. They will be a big 3A that can beat like Bay City last year! They have a can-do attitude. Hooks is a real trip, but he can get his kids up for any big ballgame....I wonder if it was "politically incorrect" to say they had to down-size?Even though, I don't care for Dan, He is a good football coach. When BC was still 4a, He came and sat down at a basketball game with another and I. He knew everyone of our kid's names and what they could do.

[Disputant]

I think Dan Hooks has all that success because he is an old Barbers Hill boy. Got that "fire", you know!

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Disputant ]</small>

[RBARKER]

Here are the 4A teams that are below the 950 mark as of 2002. Some are already in the 3A range, I guess they chose to stay 4A last year.

209. LAMPASAS 948.00
210. HOUSTON SCARBOROUGH 934.00
211. MEDINA VALLEY 926.00
212. PALESTINE 924.00
213. LEVELLAND 921.00
214. WEST ORANGE-STARK 913.50
215. MABANK 911.00
216. WEST COLUMBIA 909.00
217. SILSBEE 905.00
218. PARIS 904.00
219. TAYLOR 902.00
220. DALLAS ROOSEVELT 825.00
221. FABENS 767.00
222. HOUSTON KASHMERE 748.00
223. HOUSTON WHEATLEY 732.00

[JasperDog94]

I actually got to work the chains at a Jasper/WOS game a few years ago. I may not like him, but man can that guy coach. Jasper had a far superior team that year and WOS had a bad year. The final score was something like 42-0. But, Dan was calling Jasper's offensive plays before they were even run. It was incredible. Granted that they couldn't stop the plays that year, but he actually knew 80-90% of the time what play was about to be run.

I think that was the last year that Jasper played WOS.

Now that I think about it, one of the reasons WOS won't be as good as they used to be is because of Beaumont Ozen. It's basically a magnet school for athletics. WOS used to have that title with some shifty transfers in the local school districts. But now it's legal for Ozen to do that. Oh well, times change.

[JasperDog94]

RBARKER:

214. WEST ORANGE-STARK 913.50
WOW! WOS has a half a kid! :D

[JasperDog94]

Jacket2000:
WOS might have a little more competition in 3a than they think. It also looks as if Stephenvile might be spendin' a year or two in 3a in the near future.
J2KThere's no doubt in my mind that WOS would have good competition. I just meant to say that they would certainly be a force to be dealt with.

[Old Cardinal]

With a little projection on team programs coming up; I would say that outside of 3 or 4 Southeast Texas teams; there are only maybe 3 or 4 other 3A teams across Texas that can stay on the field with a Dan Hooks WOS team.

[sphinx1906]

if those guys were 4A then how in the hell was Jasper 3A. As far as coach hooks goes if you don't like him then you don't know him.

[JasperDog94]

sphinx1906:
if those guys were 4A then how in the hell was Jasper 3A. As far as coach hooks goes if you don't like him then you don't know him.Easy there big fella. No need to get your drawers in a wad. I know Dan Hooks from the sidelines of football games and I will say that I strongly disapprove of the way he talks to and treats his players. Motivation is great, but screaming and cussing at them is a different story. eek! I greatly admire his coaching ability, but the way he deals with kids leaves a lot to be desired.

As for how in the "heck" Jasper ended up in 3A, it's called "enrollment". wink

[spiveyrat]

Does anyone believe Dan Hooks would stay at WOS and coach a 3A school? I really don't know one way or the other, but I know there are coaches who would see it as a detriment to their careers and would move on to another position in a 4A or 5A school.

[JasperDog94]

Coach Brooks from Jasper sure did. Not to mention the huge pay raise I'm sure he got to coach Ozen.

[spiveyrat]

JasperDog94:
Coach Brooks from Jasper sure did. Not to mention the huge pay raise I'm sure he got to coach Ozen.Yeah, that's part of what I was thinking about when I posted.

[xlr8tor]

Old Cardinal:
With a little projection on team programs coming up; I would say that outside of 3 or 4 Southeast Texas teams; there are only maybe 3 or 4 other 3A teams across Texas that can stay on the field with a Dan Hooks WOS team.Have to disagree with you there Old Cardinal. WOS isn't the powerhouse they used to be. Even if they were to move down to 3A I'm not for sure they would be one of the top 10. Here's a my list (my opinion of course) of teams outside south east Texas that could currently at least stay with, if not beat WOS.

Burnet
Greenwood
Sweetwater
Forney
Commerce
Celina
Pilot Point
Gainesville
Ballinger
Abilene Wylie
Sinton
Atlanta
La Grange
Marlin
Kennedale
Everman

And, I may have missed a few! Of course, that is just my take!

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: xlr8tor ]</small>

[Old Cardinal]

I disagree, Everman, Forney, Burnet are the only ones that would stay on the field with WO-S. The rest of them would get really beat and the Division II little schools would be murdered by postseason!

[xlr8tor]

Old Cardinal:
I disagree, Everman, Forney, Burnet are the only ones that would stay on the field with WO-S. The rest of them would get really beat and the Division II little schools would be murdered by postseason!You haven't done your homework buddy. Firstly there are the three we agree on above. Secondly, surely you don't think Greenwood, being a 3A finalist, couldn't stay on the field with WOS. I mean WOS didn't even make the playoff's last year if my research is correct. But then you have Sweetwater, who in the not to distant past, dropped from 4A to 3A also. They beat Andrews (a 4A playoff team 19-7 last year. Gainseville as well be WF Hirschi, another 4A playoff team. Sinton, beat Gregory-Portland 16-7 and they were a 4A semi-finalist. And then there is Marlin. Marlin beat Ennis 20-12 and Ennis was also a 4A semi-finalist. They also beat Waco Midway, another 4A team. And if you ever missed putting anybody on this list, you missed Kennedale. They gave the 3A Div. 1 champ their only loss, beating Everman 42-33. They also beat 4A team FW Southern Hills. And they beat 4A playoff team Dallas Smith. As for Atlanta, a regular 3A playoff team, they managed to beat 2 4A teams last year, although neither of them were playoff teams, like WOS. Abilene Wylie also beat a non-playoff 4A team rather handily last year. As for Commerce, Celina, Pilot Point, Ballinger, and La Grange, well, they may be more "up and comings". But I still think they could at least make a decent showing against WOS. So, perhaps a modified list of who could stay on the field if not beat WOS.

Everman
Burnet
Forney
Greenwood
Sweetwater
Gainesville
Abilene Wylie
Sinton
Atlanta
Marlin
Kennedale

Throw WOS in the mix along with the SE Texas teams we haven't mentioned (Jasper, Newton, etc...) and I still have serious doubts about WOS making the top ten. Of course, that's just my take.

[Old Cardinal]

WOS was in a NINE team extra tough big-enrollment 4A District, created especially by the UIL to try to wear them down or cripple them up, prior to Postseason. Yes, I think WOS could beat Greenwood and any other Division II by 4 TD's last season and they should be a little stronger next season when they come down to 3A--How many games have you seen Dan Hook's teams play?

[xlr8tor]

I've never seen them play. Nor have I seen some of the others I mentioned. Which means nothing one way or the other. I was just noticing what appears to me as inconsistencies. Ozen and Central bowed out in the first round of the playoffs last year. Nederland bowed out in the second. Yet Sinton and Marlin each beat a 4A semi-finalist that obviously was better than WOS, or Ozen, Central, or Nederland last year. You'd have a hard time convincing someone that they couldn't stay on the field with a 4A team that didn't even make the playoffs. And like I said previously, Sweetwater and Gainesville beat a 4A playoff team too; teams that made if further than WOS. But this is just my opinoin, so keep it coming. Just my take.

[3afan]

Old Cardinal:
WOS was in a NINE team extra tough big-enrollment 4A District, created especially by the UIL to try to wear them down or cripple them up, prior to Postseason. Yes, I think WOS could beat Greenwood and any other Division II by 4 TD's last season and they should be a little stronger next season when they come down to 3A--How many games have you seen Dan Hook's teams play?the UIL does not create districts in order to "wear down" or "cripple" specific teams in specific sports. thats so off base i wonder if your even serious !?!?!?! yes WOS would have been a good 3A team last year, but so would 70% of 4A schools. dont know about beating Greenwood by 4 td's ...

[RBARKER]

Old Card, come on now don't start this again. I remember you touting Jasper last year saying some of the same things, then after they beat BC you claimed no one could stay on the field with Jasper. Well Burnet disproved that theory. WOS will be a good team if they drop down to 3A but I dont think they will dominate as you are saying. xlr8tor has some good points listen to logic for once.

[TarponFanInNorthTexas]

Some of you haven't seen WOS play.....but I have, and they gave La Marque all sorts of hell in their game. WOS is no pushover in 4A, and WILL be dominant in 3A.

And you thought Jasper has athletes......

[ALLSPORTSGUY]

I know that WOS is a well coached team and they have their fair share of talent, but I don't know if OC knows this or not their football team is shrinking. They only have 30 varsity players this year. Its only a matter of time before they lose Hooks he has already contemplated retirement. If they drop to 3A that may push him over the edge.

[3afan]

just because a team has been very successful in the past you cant automatically say they will dominate if they get moved down. if WOS does go down then it because they are losing students and that WILL impact their athletic, etc. teams. also you cant assume they'll have the same caliber of athletes they've had in the past. they might - but they might not. WOS could dominate IF they go down to 3A - or they could just be very good - or better than average. who knows.

[Old Cardinal]

To RBarker; WOS went 8-2,6-2 last year...Yes they came in 4th in an excellent District(bearly beat out of playoffs). Their two non-district opponents ended: WOS 40-West Columbia 17 and then WOS 53-BAY CITY 35....Yes there was a big UIL stink-- after years of Southeast Texas teams, in 4A, climbing the brackets-- to put 9 teams into one District-they did not do that to anyone else in Texas! Had they been distributed into normal size Districts, their is a good chance 3 other teams out of the group would have made at least several rounds in the playoffs!...As to my projections on Jasper last year-I watched them beat Mexia 39-0 and Cameron Yoe 46-0 and then was chastised on this board for saying (before the game) that although BC has won 11 games, I did not think they had the talent to overcome Jasper. Mr. Barker, Mexia and Cameron Yoe were good teams; as good or better than Barbers Hill...I would have never guessed that Burnet could beat Jasper 46-28, but I did not know that Jasper was vunerable to the passing attack, of that skilled Burnet team....WOS had a down year(2002), but they will be a force(but not unbeatable) in 3A just as they have been a threat for two decades in 4A, most every year.

<small>[ August 15, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Old Cardinal ]</small>

[spiveyrat]

I agree with you OC. After watching (and pulling AGAINST) them since the middle to late '80s... They are always a threat. They have had down years. But it is usually because of greater talent talent in their district rivals. I don't like Dan Hooks or his do-whatever-it-takes-to-win behavior (whether legal or illegal). But, as long as he's there they'll be a hard team to beat whether they are 3A, 4A or 5A.

[JasperDog94]

One thing I think we all can agree on. IF WOS moves down to 3A, they will be a team that "could" go all the way. Noone is saying that they are unbeatable, but they do have some great teams most years.

Remember, I said a "possible" new 3A powerhouse. Nobody has put them in 3A yet, so the arguement may be mute. But it sure was interesting to see all the remarks. Keep em' coming.

[j_dog]

A little history. The last time WO-S "dropped down", from 5a to 4a in 1986, they won state twice and made it to the 4a finals in their third year. And that was under coach Hooks. They have proven they know how to handle the drop down. One difference then, they had a guy named Thompson coaching the defense. He has now moved on to a head coaching job somewhere.

A little footnote, WO was picked to win the district and state in 86. Their first 4a district game was at home against Jasper. Final score was 21-8, Jasper upset victory. Both teams advanced, meeting again in the QF. WO prevailed 20-15 and went on to win state.

[big daddy russ]

The Mustangs have fallen off a bit since their trip to the title game a couple of years back, but they'd still be a good 3A team. But to say that there are fewer than 10 3A teams that could hang with them would be pushing it. I'd be willing to bet that there are closer to 30 that could hang with them. Remember, the second-most talent-rich football area in the nation is actually the strip just east of D/FW which stretches across Northeast Texas, the far Southeastern corner of Oklahoma, far Southwestern Arkansas and into Northern Louisiana. Up there you have not only Atlanta, as xlr8or said, but also Daingerfield (who is the preseason favorite to win that district). And don't forget Carthage, Rusk, Gilmer and even New Boston. Heck, just about all of District 12 could probably compete. That's the toughest football in the state.

[xlr8tor]

It is interesting to note, that for the last 20 years, and out of the 25 champions (2 champions(Div. I and II since '98) that 19 of those 25 champions came from the area north of IH10 and east of IH35. They include Everman ('02,'01), Commerce ('99, '01), Liberty Eylau ('99), South Lake Carrol ('88, '92, '93), Jefferson ('86), Daingerfield ('83, '85), Groesbeck ('91), Mexia ('89), Sealy ('94, '95, '96, '97), La Grange ('00), and Newton('98). And out of 50 participants in those championship games, 31 of the 50 have also been from this same area. 10 of these championship games over the last 20 years paired two teams, both of which were from this area. Indeed some great football. Out of 15 championship games in the last 10 years, only Bandera, Gatesville, and Aledo have managed to bring home a trophy outside of this area. 3 teams in the 10 years prior to that managed to do the same, being Vernon, Cuero, and Medina Valley. Looks to me like the best 3A football comes from between IH10 and the Red River, and IH35 and the Louisiana border (or so it has been the last 20 years. Just my take.

[JasperDog94]

If, and I use the word if, WOS drops to 3A, I think it would be a stretch to say the 30 teams in 3A would put up a good fight. Maybe somewhere between 10-20, but no more than 20. Anyone that has seen them play and seen how they are coached wouldn't say that 30 teams could play with them.

Just my opinion. wink

[Old Cardinal]

I agree Jasper dog, their are maybe between 5 and 10 that can hang with them. It easy to have a different opinion, I guess, when you have never seen them play..

[Matthew328]

Is Everman east of I-35?? depends on which I-35 you are talking about...LOL As for the UIL purposley trying to "wear" down WOS and any other team in 20-4A..that is silly....the numbers this year just didn't work out..

[xlr8tor]

Matthew328:
Is Everman east of I-35?? depends on which I-35 you are talking about...LOL As for the UIL purposley trying to "wear" down WOS and any other team in 20-4A..that is silly....the numbers this year just didn't work out..Everman east of IH35? Yes and No. For those that don't know IH35 splits at Hillsboro; then IH35W goes through Ft. Worth, while IH35E goes through Dallas; and then they meet again in Denton. Everman is between the split. So yes they are east if IH35, but I guess I shoulda clarified that. LOL, just my take.

[RBARKER]

Old Cardinal:
To RBarker; WOS went 8-2,6-2 last year...Yes they came in 4th in an excellent District(bearly beat out of playoffs). Their two non-district opponents ended: WOS 40-West Columbia 17 and then WOS 53-BAY CITY 35....Yes there was a big UIL stink-- after years of Southeast Texas teams, in 4A, climbing the brackets-- to put 9 teams into one District-they did not do that to anyone else in Texas! Had they been distributed into normal size Districts, their is a good chance 3 other teams out of the group would have made at least several rounds in the playoffs!...As to my projections on Jasper last year-I watched them beat Mexia 39-0 and Cameron Yoe 46-0 and then was chastised on this board for saying (before the game) that although BC has won 11 games, I did not think they had the talent to overcome Jasper. Mr. Barker, Mexia and Cameron Yoe were good teams; as good or better than Barbers Hill...I would have never guessed that Burnet could beat Jasper 46-28, but I did not know that Jasper was vunerable to the passing attack, of that skilled Burnet team....WOS had a down year(2002), but they will be a force(but not unbeatable) in 3A just as they have been a threat for two decades in 4A, most every year.Mr. Cardinal, I have watched WOS Several times I follow Dayton 4a football when my Eagles are away. I agree that WOS is a very talented team Athelete and Coach wise. I just beleive that dropping down a level doesn't make you an automatic powerhouse. It sound like to me that Coach Hooks may not stick around for the drop, then what. WOS has had impressive seasons but in the past 5 years they only had one season that went past the first round of the playoffs and that was a trip to State on 2000. The following is a break down of there last 5 years.

1998 - Went 10-1 lost first round of the playoffs to Silsbee.
1999- Went 7-3 did not advance to the playoffs
2000- Went 15-1 state appearance lost to Ennis
2001- Went 5-5 did not advance to the playoffs
2002- Went 8-2 did not advance to the playoffs

[Old Cardinal]

Dan Hooks will be there till he croaks, we all know him pretty well down here.... RBarker, try to get BH set up with a scrimmage, or game, with WO-S and I think you will find out just how tough they will be next season, when they drop into 3A.....That 31 wins and 12 loses is a little deceptive; because they tend to play the best 4A-5A teams around on a lot of pre-district games.

<small>[ August 17, 2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Old Cardinal ]</small>

[hsfan]

houston kashmere and houston wheatly mite give wos a good game.in basketball you probaly just give state title to wheatly.these 2 schools fall in 3a,but hisd will not let them drop down.

[Old Cardinal]

To Matt, I respectfully disagree about stacking 9 good teams in one 4A District, as accidental. It does not give these teams but 2 preseason games to prepare and they have to play their best in order to win each District game....Now in 3A, Preseason schedules with five Non-district games(like most REG.I, Reg.II and Reg.IV; allow a Coach to experiment, develop, and play a lot more athletes....I know that the UIL is bias- in 3A Region I, there is only one(District 8) with 8 teams. That was done to try to assure that Everman, now,(District 8), which was specifically shifted over to REg. I, would play another DFW team out of Region II; thus having two DFW teams(if possible) in the final four in 3A.... Next, in Region II there is only one District(Dist 10) with 8 teams, also. In Region IV, their is only one Dist(#32) with 8 teams in the District...NOW THE BIAS SHOWS UP IN REGION III WITH FIVE DISTRICTS( #17,19,20,21,22) all playing sports where only three teams from EIGHT team Districts, make the playoffs; as compared to 3 of 6, predominate in the other Regions. I personally don't think its "silly", knowing that these bais acts were intentionally set up by those in power...Matt I was impressed with your work on determining 3A projected top-side enrollment. I had heard a projected fiqure of approximately 840-850. The bottom side of 3A was projected to be 440-450. You came up with a much lower enrollment number for the bottom of 3A...I was wondering how you could derive that figure, if you did not run the computer projections out for probable 2A enrollments?

<small>[ August 17, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Old Cardinal ]</small>

[RBARKER]

Old Cardinal:
Dan Hooks will be there till he croaks, we all know him pretty well down here.... RBarker, try to get BH set up with a scrimmage, or game, with WO-S and I think you will find out just how tough they will be next season, when they drop into 3A.....That 31 wins and 12 loses is a little deceptive; because they tend to play the best 4A-5A teams around on a lot of pre-district games.I would love for BH to play someone in preseason or scrimmage. I don't know what the deal is at BH with preseason and scrimmages, we play teams that are regular at best. I would rather see BH winless when district starts than see us undefeated.

[Old Cardinal]

RBarker, I agree with you, the big picture is to play folks a little better than you, if possible. I think BH could play the Bay City-like teams a good game...It appears that some Coaches like to have those easy-to-get wins under their belt, so that they don't start getting questioned by the School Board....I personally like scrimmages with folks that can hack you off and get your youth really riled up, and then also play some very challenging teams in preseason. Yes you have to hear the flack from the folks that love to see you lose; but those bad experiences early might get you tuned up for playoff level competition.

[3afan]

OC, you're looking for things that aren't there. the UIL doesn't single out teams ... the numbers may make it appear that way but its simply not true. AND, as far as the bottom enrollment cutoff for 3A, or any classification, that is just a circumstance once all the teams are placed in a specific conference (X numbr will be 5A, then the next X number in 4A, then the next X number in 3A, etc.) ... its not determined beforehand.

[Old Cardinal]

Mr 3afan FROM DFW---I know you would like for folks to believe that, but its simply not true---in 3A, four of the five teams stacked in Region III are District 19 East Texas and Districts 20, 21, 22 ALL OF THE FOUR other 8 TEAM Disticts are in SOUTH EAST TEXAS that are being treated in a bias manner. Why would you be interested in changing the Status Quo, if you are from the DFW area, your just see it as a chance layout of teams per District- RIGHT?

[3afan]

OC, you are right on how the districts were laid out with the last realignment - but unless its the same realignment-after-realignment then your conspiracy theory is just you defending Region III best you can. believe it or not, the UIL has integrity and they do not hold bias against specific areas or regions. they may do some strange things now and then but the have an incredibly difficult job.

QUESTION for you - is Lamar U going to brig back football? Hope so ...

[bc 76]

Hey i see the WOS-Bay City game every year and they can play with anybody,if they drop down to 3a they will beat anybody in region 3,and 8-2 year for them is rebuilding year.

[Matthew328]

Old Cardinal:
To Matt, I respectfully disagree about stacking 9 good teams in one 4A District, as accidental. It does not give these teams but 2 preseason games to prepare and they have to play their best in order to win each District game....Now in 3A, Preseason schedules with five Non-district games(like most REG.I, Reg.II and Reg.IV; allow a Coach to experiment, develop, and play a lot more athletes....I know that the UIL is bias- in 3A Region I, there is only one(District 8) with 8 teams. That was done to try to assure that Everman, now,(District 8), which was specifically shifted over to REg. I, would play another DFW team out of Region II; thus having two DFW teams(if possible) in the final four in 3A.... Next, in Region II there is only one District(Dist 10) with 8 teams, also. In Region IV, their is only one Dist(#32) with 8 teams in the District...NOW THE BIAS SHOWS UP IN REGION III WITH FIVE DISTRICTS( #17,19,20,21,22) all playing sports where only three teams from EIGHT team Districts, make the playoffs; as compared to 3 of 6, predominate in the other Regions. I personally don't think its "silly", knowing that these bais acts were intentionally set up by those in power...Matt I was impressed with your work on determining 3A projected top-side enrollment. I had heard a projected fiqure of approximately 840-850. The bottom side of 3A was projected to be 440-450. You came up with a much lower enrollment number for the bottom of 3A...I was wondering how you could derive that figure, if you did not run the computer projections out for probable 2A enrollments?OC Everman has always been a "swing" team....sometimes in Region II but usually they are in Region I...typically the Ft Worth area teams are in Region I in 5A, 4A and 3A..and Dallas area schools are in Region II...no conspiracy there...check the records..Everman has been Region I more than Region II...as for the 9 team district..the UIL was put in a difficult spot..What else could they have done?? The way I came up with the numbers was placing the top 200 or so teams left after I did 5A/4A..

[RBARKER]

found this article in the Orange Leader about realingment in East texas. Sounds like WOS and Silsbee may be going 3A.



http://www.orangeleader.com/articles/2003/08/16/sports/sports1.txt

[JasperDog94]

That was an interesting article. Of course that article is assuming that the numbers for 3A will go up. Some members of this board feel that they will go down. Who knows? We'll just have to wait until February to find out.

[spiveyrat]

Wow!!! WOS enrollment has really dropped since '85! Thanks for posting that article.

[Old Cardinal]

I just wanted to say, that it is interesting how people read a few stats and derive their on information on so little pertainent data.... Many have commented that WO-S finished 4th in a District with 9 Teams. Actually they were in a THREE-WAY-TIE with two other good teams for second place. All of them had identical 6-2 District records....The way the system worked out, WOS was awarded 4th by the scantest of numbers. Maybe knowing that fact, will relate why some of us; very close to the subject at hand, still feel they will be a major force in 3A football, if they get the lower re-classification. Stats are a poor basis of forming opinions when you are many miles separated, and have never seen a team play on the gridiron. Reading that a team did not "make the playoffs" somehow changes: when it pointed out they were in a three-way-tie, for second place in a good giant 4A District.

[JasperDog94]

I know that last year Jasper kept hearing about how strong and fast Burnet was. I don't think that our team believed it. After they got burned for several deep passes, they started to believe. There's nothing like seeing something with your own eyes to really understand the hype.

[xlr8tor]

Old Cardinal:
To RBarker; WOS went 8-2,6-2 last year...Yes they came in 4th in an excellent District(bearly beat out of playoffs). Their two non-district opponents ended: WOS 40-West Columbia 17 and then WOS 53-BAY CITY 35....Yes there was a big UIL stink-- after years of Southeast Texas teams, in 4A, climbing the brackets-- to put 9 teams into one District-they did not do that to anyone else in Texas! Had they been distributed into normal size Districts, their is a good chance 3 other teams out of the group would have made at least several rounds in the playoffs!...As to my projections on Jasper last year-I watched them beat Mexia 39-0 and Cameron Yoe 46-0 and then was chastised on this board for saying (before the game) that although BC has won 11 games, I did not think they had the talent to overcome Jasper. Mr. Barker, Mexia and Cameron Yoe were good teams; as good or better than Barbers Hill...I would have never guessed that Burnet could beat Jasper 46-28, but I did not know that Jasper was vunerable to the passing attack, of that skilled Burnet team....WOS had a down year(2002), but they will be a force(but not unbeatable) in 3A just as they have been a threat for two decades in 4A, most every year.I ran across some interesting facts. I remembered, and noticed that you said, "Yes there was a big UIL stink-- after years of Southeast Texas teams, in 4A, climbing the brackets-- to put 9 teams into one District- they did not do that to anyone else in Texas! Had they been distributed into normal size Districts, their is a good chance 3 other teams out of the group would have made at least several rounds in the playoffs!" Actually they did. District 1-5A has 9 teams just like district 20-4A. But really neither of these teams got the worst deal in the state as far as district alignment is concerned. Actually there are two other districts that have ten, 10 teams in each of them. And they are both 4A; district 7-4A and district 22-4A. Thought you should know, or might be interested. Just my take.

[rholl]

oh boy here we go again!!!! You would think OC was on UIL committe since he knows exactly what they are trying to do!

[xlr8tor]

rholl:
oh boy here we go again!!!! You would think OC was on UIL committe since he knows exactly what they are trying to do!Well, I'm sorry, but it kinda gets on my nerves when people start saying something that isn't true. And it is really irritating when people act like their corner of the world is the most persecuted, when it actuality, some areas have it worse, as with the 9 teams per district issue. As to your question above? I don't know. I learned long ago not to try to second-guess or even make sense of everything the UIL does. It is an excercise in futility if you ask me. I guess my main point was, if your going to spout something as a fact, get your facts straight! Just my take.

[trojandad]

Sounds like 2 years ago when Jasper was coming down to 3A, they were gonna go 90-0 and eat small children on their way to upteen state championships.

Good teams will always want to sharpen their skills on a good team, and if reputation scares a team into playing badly, then Coach Hooks got his way. The rest of us need to be raising kids anxious to strap on a helmet with anybody, WOS, Jasper, Marlin or any "unbeatable" team, cuz they ain't. LOL

[big69]

If WOS does drop down, that will be THE toughest district in 3A (if Jasper does not move back up)
WOS
Jasper
Newton
BC
That would be like 11-5A
Lufkin
Lonview
Tyler Lee
John Tyler (even though they have not made the playoffs in 2 years, they are still tough)

[southern_thunder]

If things continue as they have been and the numbers for 3a go up then Newton will drop to 2a. Now just imagine, WOS, Silsbee, Jasper, and BC all in the same district, it could mean that 2 teams with over 800 enrollment could go into the playoffs in the small school division.

[big69]

I think the UIL has got enrollment thing screwed up! How can a school with under 400 kids possibly be in the same district as one with over 800 kids? And how can there be a 1/2 a student in the enrollment? THis sending 3 teams to the playoffs is already ridiculous, but sending four! Just make another class (6A) and send only 1 team from one dist. to the playoffs, that will make district games more fun to watch and playoff games will be better. That will show everybody who the best team in the state is. Not a third place team going to State and winning by chance because it just happened to be their year, but a team that busted their butts to get there, I'm sure it would make that team feel a lot better and show them that hard work really does pay off

[X21AAAPlayer]

big69:
I think the UIL has got enrollment thing screwed up! How can a school with under 400 kids possibly be in the same district as one with over 800 kids? And how can there be a 1/2 a student in the enrollment? THis sending 3 teams to the playoffs is already ridiculous, but sending four! Just make another class (6A) and send only 1 team from one dist. to the playoffs, that will make district games more fun to watch and playoff games will be better. That will show everybody who the best team in the state is. Not a third place team going to State and winning by chance because it just happened to be their year, but a team that busted their butts to get there, I'm sure it would make that team feel a lot better and show them that hard work really does pay offI dont really agree with sending one team from each district. 2 is plenty though. If you send one you may be sending a team that went 9-1 who played a bad game home and not let them hit the playoffs. That might rob someone of their team's chances to take a state title. Sending two should be correct. One big school, one small school. That way there's more competition in the playoffs. But I do agree with you saying that sending 3 possibly 4 is plain ridiculous. The 3rd and 4th place teams will end up playing first place teams and getting blown out.

[WeAreCCB]

Why do y'all keep leavin out Carthage?

[Birdman]

I disagree that the UIL intentionally tried to screw-up 20-AAAA with the last alignment. It was a numbers and geography thing. With the Golden Triangle sitting on the border, there was no where else to stick them without creating a small district. One thing I do know for a fact, because I have talked to him on numerous occasions. Dan Hooks is still coaching because they are headed for AAA. He has coached college, 5A, 4A, and now he wants to give 3A a shot. One other interesting note.... Silsbee coaches are nervous because their enrollment has bumped up over the last year. I have no idea how much, but those coaches are nervous eek! !

[JasperDog94]

I've got 4 words for you:

"I TOLD YOU SO" :D

Sorry, I just don't get the opportunity to say that much since my wife is usually correct. eek! wink

[duckbutter]

WOS WILL be stout this yr. Newton has never beaten them, the closest was in 98 and I think they won by 3, but we will get another chance at them this yr.

[98Eagle]

duckbutter:
WOS WILL be stout this yr. Newton has never beaten them, the closest was in 98 and I think they won by 3, but we will get another chance at them this yr.WOS won 10-0 in the first predistrict game of '98.