Something to ponder

[Old Cardinal]

As we approach November 2004, let us reflect: At the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the Universiy of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

I kind of think the 9-1-1 situation was a stimulus for this nation to be somewhat reborn and pull together, in spite of the parasitical liberals.

<small>[ February 25, 2004, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Old Cardinal ]</small>

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Do you even know what you are talking about? The Republicans were the ones who proposed the allowing of companies to dip into retirement funds to pay for company costs...the same money that hard-working Americans put back and worked for for years, and they want to allow the companies to spend it all so that when their employees retire, they will be left with nothing...Who is parasitical now? We are also in the biggest budget deficit that we have been in in decades, and yes, that is attributed to the war in many ways, but the cutting of federal taxes also plays a strong role as well. True the tax cuts are helping to boost economic growth, but we need to increase taxes because we are getting deeper and deeper into debt by the minute and you have to draw the line somewhere. Even with the tax cuts, who is benefiting more, the rich, upper class, or the middle and lower classes? I know it, and you know it too, it is the same answer that it has always been when you have Republicans in office----the upper class. I will agree with you on the aspect that 9/11 did unite our country. I will also agree that we are losing our democratic rights as well. There is only a small percentage of Americans who vote, I know that it is a single digit number, but I couldn't venture to guess, and if we keep allowing the Republicans to take office, then yes, you are right, a dictatorship will follow, because I firmly believe that even at the age of 16, George Bush is doing a horrible job of running this country.

[JasperDog94]

While I disagree with several points of the republican party right now, they are by far the better of the two. JMHO

When it comes down to giving things away, there is no way you can argue that the democrats would give away more money in entitlements that the republicans. Look at the ludicris prescription drug bill. The republicans passed a bill, but the democrats said that it wasn't enough. And which party is promising "universal healthcare"? My friend, that's socialism. Look at our good buddies the Canadians if you want a good look at what socialism can do to your country. You can get any operation that you need...five years from now.

One more question for you. Two years ago, was it more important to trim the deficit or promote economic growth?

I too feel that the deficit needs to be trimmed. But I don't want my taxes raised!

[Old Cardinal]

The "rich" are really doing their share! According to the IRS stats-the top 1% pay 36% of all the taxes and the top 5% pay 54% of all the taxes!

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
From bondage to spiritual faith;
From faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to adundance;
From abundance to complacecy; From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence
From dependence back to bondage.
Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the last Presidential election:
Population of counties won: by Gore, 127 million; by Bush, 143 million;
Square miles of land won: by Gore, 580,000; by Bush 2,427,000;
States won; by Gore 19; by Bush, 29
This is the saddist statistic---
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won:
by Gore 13.2; by Bush, 2.1.

Professor Olson adds, "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was (mostly) the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country, Gore's territory encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare..." Olsen believes the U. S. is now somewhere between the "apathy" and the complacency" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy; with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

[JasperDog94]

I've often wondered what would happen if tomorrow the government were to say: "That's it. No more money and entitlements. No more welfare, tax subsidies (for farmers), no more freebies." The best solution is to depend on yourself and leave the government out of it.

[spiveyrat]

Old Cardinal:

This is the saddist statistic---
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won:
by Gore 13.2; by Bush, 2.1.
Wow! That's startling! eek!

Thanks OC. That's some interesting reading.

[JasperDog94]

You should see the stat regarding gun ownership in the counties won by each. It's even more startling. I don't remember the exact stat but it was amazing.

[PPHSfan]

I have a question for some of the Liberals.

Do you think that a person that makes $150,000.00 a year has a right to use more of the highway than a person who makes $30,000.00 a year?

Of course you dont.

But the fact of the matter is, the former contributes much more to the building of the road than the latter, so why is it not fair?

Your answer: Because he pays a percentage of his income which is higher, not because he pays more money.

What is your reasoning in that?

A true flat tax would be an equal dollar amount paid be each individual, not an equal percentage of income.

Do the rich use more of the programs that their dollars fund?

Hell NO, they use less. There are very few "rich" folks that use the hospital as their family doctor so that they don't have to pay medical insurance, yet the top 1% of the wage earners in this country pay over 1/3rd of the taxes it takes to keep that "County Health Care Facility in operation.

Do the rich use more of the fire department, the police department, or the Social Security division?

Answer these questions honestly and then tell me that it is the middle class that are getting screwed.

[Chief Woodman]

Old Cardinal:
As we approach November 2004, let us reflect: At the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the Universiy of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

I kind of think the 9-1-1 situation was a stimulus for this nation to be somewhat reborn and pull together, in spite of the parasitical liberals.Mr Tyler is roughly quoting Plato in is dialogue "Republic".

Plato also said that governments go in cycles with democracy being the highest form. According to him democracy begins to fall when everyone including our puppies stand up and demand their "rights" and "entitlements" until the society adopts a culture of not offending anyone. (Can you say politicaly correct? Can you say animal rights?)

Eventually the peoples of the democracy start wanting to end the madness and are willing to accept anything or anyone who can get them out of the legal mess they have made for themselves. Thus, they willing accept a dictator who will straighten out the mess, but then he gets power hungry and corrupt and everything starts all over again.

Consider these world powers Rome, Greece and Egypt. The events that transpired right before the collapse of those societies are happening today in the USA. In each case the following occured:

They had the greatest millitary on the face of the earth. (Currently USA)
They had the highest arts and "Culture" for their day and age.
Tremendous economic difference between how their high society lived as compared to the rest of the world (USA income per every person in the USA- $27,000 a year. Current world wide average income per person $800 per person...and this INCLUDES the USA's income)
They aquired their wealth through the defeat of other peoples. (Our land is our greatest resource, and we took it from the American Indians)
They often killed their young so that they would not be inconvienced by the burden of children (Abortion in the USA has killed more people than all of our losses in every war combined)
Sexual morality was non-existant (In USA gay rights, sex before wedlock, Pornography- by the way the word fornication in the Bible comes from the Greek word PORNEA from which we get or word pornography. ANY sex outside the bounds of matrimony is SIN...NO EXCUSES)
Each thought that those who were not Roman, Greek or Egyptian were barbarians or savages (Our American Indians, todays terrorists)
Last but not least, the rest of the world despised them for their wealth and how they obtained it only to be snooty to those without.

I am not condeming the USA at all- I love this country and think it is the best in the world....but our thinking process that leads us to think that morals do not matter (It's the economy stupid!) is the same poor logic as past fallen empires. We will repeat their fall if we do not change and stop letting evil parade as "Rights". This of course will not happen until we accept a dictator...and it may be closer than we would like to think.

<small>[ February 26, 2004, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Chief Woodman ]</small>

[PPHSfan]

I would vote for Dennis Miller to be our dictator. :D

[Old Cardinal]

There is a story about a Granddad talking to his Grandson who was in college. It goes something like this- "Grandson, how is college treating you?"..."Well I've been able to keep a 4.0 gpa, which is pretty good considering I have a job after classes and all day Saturday--and I have a tough major. My goal is to design safer athletic equipment, build a factory and try to be somewhat successful after college."... "You played football with a friend named Albert in High School, how is he doing in college?" "Well Albert spends most of his time playing cards and doesn't study. He has a government loan, but says he is trying to figure out how to ride it to the max and then not pay it back. He has a 2.0 gpa."..."Well Grandson, since you have a 4.0 and Albert has a 2.0 maybe you should give Albert 1.0, so that each of you would have a 3.0 gpa." "But Granddad I don't think that is really fair since Albert is just out to milk the situation and I am working very hard."....The Grandfather just smiled and said, "It looks like you will make a good Republican and Albert will make a good "Yellow Dog Democrat".

<small>[ February 26, 2004, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Old Cardinal ]</small>

[spiveyrat]

PPHSfan:
I would vote for Dennis Miller to be our dictator. :D No voting in a dictatorship!

[PPHSfan]

spiveyrat:

PPHSfan:
I would vote for Dennis Miller to be our dictator. :D No voting in a dictatorship!Actually it is no voting AFTER the dictatorship.

[spiveyrat]

PPHSfan:

spiveyrat:

PPHSfan:
I would vote for Dennis Miller to be our dictator. :D No voting in a dictatorship!Actually it is no voting AFTER the dictatorship.I think I was right the first time. I don't think you vote to have a dictatorship. Someone with military backing usually takes power.

[PPHSfan]

Only if we don't Vote first :D

[SintonFan]

I've enjoyed all of this, especially the stats.
.
.

BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END:
Do you even know what you are talking about? The Republicans were the ones who proposed the allowing of companies to dip into retirement funds to pay for company costs...the same money that hard-working Americans put back and worked for for years, and they want to allow the companies to spend it all so that when their employees retire, they will be left with nothing...Who is parasitical now? We are also in the biggest budget deficit that we have been in in decades, and yes, that is attributed to the war in many ways, but the cutting of federal taxes also plays a strong role as well. True the tax cuts are helping to boost economic growth, but we need to increase taxes because we are getting deeper and deeper into debt by the minute and you have to draw the line somewhere. Even with the tax cuts, who is benefiting more, the rich, upper class, or the middle and lower classes? I know it, and you know it too, it is the same answer that it has always been when you have Republicans in office----the upper class. I will agree with you on the aspect that 9/11 did unite our country. I will also agree that we are losing our democratic rights as well. There is only a small percentage of Americans who vote, I know that it is a single digit number, but I couldn't venture to guess, and if we keep allowing the Republicans to take office, then yes, you are right, a dictatorship will follow, because I firmly believe that even at the age of 16, George Bush is doing a horrible job of running this country..
BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END, I was like you at sixteen too. As I aged I started to think with more rational thought and less emotion. I changed my views as I got older. I'm not saying you will, but many do.

[PPHSfan]

Who was it that said...If you are under 30 and a republican you don't have a heart, but if you are over 30 and a Democrat, you don't have a brain? :D

[slpybear the bullfan]

Guys,

I have major Election Year tired head...

BUT,

I think that these posts were awesome. Some of these stats were incredible.

Based upon my love of Texas and the South, I would love to be a Democrat. But I can't. They were led away from the conservative values I believe in long before I entered this world. I am over 30... And a Republican.

Great posts guys, especially PPHSfan and Old Card... Some very telling questions and stats that I doubt can be challenged very well.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

PPHSfan:
I have a question for some of the Liberals.

Do you think that a person that makes $150,000.00 a year has a right to use more of the highway than a person who makes $30,000.00 a year?

Of course you dont.

But the fact of the matter is, the former contributes much more to the building of the road than the latter, so why is it not fair?

Your answer: Because he pays a percentage of his income which is higher, not because he pays more money.

What is your reasoning in that?

A true flat tax would be an equal dollar amount paid be each individual, not an equal percentage of income.

Do the rich use more of the programs that their dollars fund?

Hell NO, they use less. There are very few "rich" folks that use the hospital as their family doctor so that they don't have to pay medical insurance, yet the top 1% of the wage earners in this country pay over 1/3rd of the taxes it takes to keep that "County Health Care Facility in operation.

Do the rich use more of the fire department, the police department, or the Social Security division?

Answer these questions honestly and then tell me that it is the middle class that are getting screwed.Yes, he does put in more money, and yes, he is returned more money, but this is all done on a scale, and whether you put in $10,000 or $100,000, you are still going to get the same percentage in return. Everybody has to pay taxes, thats the way that it works. You're looking at it from the wrong side. Sure, they do contribute more to these costs, but thats just the way things are, and you're going to have this with a Democrat or a Republican in office. The only point that I'm trying to make is that large-scale corporations contribute money to the Republican nominees, and yes, they do contribute the the Democrats too and I'm not saying that they don't, but Republicans in office will return the favor when they are elected to office.

As a reply to JasperDog94, even with the tax cuts, other taxes such as property taxes are being raised, so either way you look at it, you're still going to have a raise in your taxes.

Chief Woodman-you have some great ideas, and these are some of the things that I too have seen and I agree with you on what you have said 100%

Old Card-that little story you wrote seems to be more Republican than Democratic and I think that it is incorrect in many aspects. You are trying to scandalize the name of the Democrats by saying this, and it is totally wrong. You had some good statistics, but I think that the murder rate has no real bearing on what kind of people voted for Al Gore. There is one little statistic that you neglected to put in there as well, there were many ballots that were uncounted, and Al Gore won the popular vote. Bush can win all the land that he wants, but does that necessarily mean that the population was higher in this area? Nope

SintonFan-yes, I may change my political beliefs as I get older, but I've picked up bits and pieces of information as I read the newspaper or the internet, and I've came to the conclusions that I have on my own, but I am a Democrat, and I'm pretty sure that I will never be a Republican...I just see them as too power hungry.

[PPHSfan]

..."The only point that I'm trying to make is that large-scale corporations contribute money to the Republican nominees, and yes, they do contribute the the Democrats too and I'm not saying that they don't, but Republicans in office will return the favor when they are elected to office."...Go do some research and look at the list of folks that got Presidential Pardons, right before Bill Clinton left office, and then come back and say things like this. As far as putting more in and getting more back, you just don't understand. Tax refunds are paid to welfare recipients, not the wealthy. Slice it or dice it however you want to, but the earned income credit is welfare.

<small>[ February 26, 2004, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: PPHSfan ]</small>

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Another thing, as much as I may disagree with some of the posts by some people on here, I'm not going to hold it against them, because that is the beauty of democracy. We all have our own beliefs. I just want to let ya'll know that I'm not trying to cause any tension between myself and posters on this board, and I respect the ideas of the others.

[PPHSfan]

We are not gettin on you. You are young and at least you have an opinion, however you have much to learn.

P.S. If you really are a big defensive end, and you ever make it into the pros. I want you to come back and tell me how much you like paying 70% of your salary in income tax, so those guys that don't earn as much as you can get a handout.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Alright, I'll be sure to remember that, but I won't make it as a DE...I'll be too little, lol. I know ya'll aren't trying to get on me or anything, I just didn't want it to seem the other way around and cause people to hate me or anything. Both political parties have their flaws, and we can argue for hours and hours about the mistakes they have made, and we'll be back at the same place we started from at the end of it. That's just the way that I see it.

[KaktusJack]

I predict President Bush will crush John Kerry in Nov 2004. Once Bush starts spending that 200 million dollar campaign money and exposing Kerry's voting record it will be all over. Kerry has flip-flopped so much during his campaign it has been hilarious. Kerry doesnt stand for a damn thing. Pretty soon President Bush and his team will start putting some serious heat on John "flip-flop" Kerry. Then it is lights out.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Alright, I'll be sure to remember that, but I won't make it as a DE...I'll be too little, lol. I know ya'll aren't trying to get on me or anything, I just didn't want it to seem the other way around and cause people to hate me or anything. Both political parties have their flaws, and we can argue for hours and hours about the mistakes they have made, and we'll be back at the same place we started from at the end of it. That's just the way that I see it.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

KaktusJack:
I predict President Bush will crush John Kerry in Nov 2004. Once Bush starts spending that 200 million dollar campaign money and exposing Kerry's voting record it will be all over. Kerry has flip-flopped so much during his campaign it has been hilarious. Kerry doesnt stand for a damn thing. Pretty soon President Bush and his team will start putting some serious heat on John "flip-flop" Kerry. Then it is lights out.You're right...Kerry can't beat Bush, and I think the only person who could stand a chance would be John Edwards.

[slpybear the bullfan]

Edwards might get the VP nom. from the Dems. But the DNC and the Northeast won't let him get the pres. nom.

Just my $.02...

And yes... this is the time that GW is using to let Kerry get his shots in... When the race is down to two it is gonna get ugly.

GW doesn't have 20+ years of congressional voting to defend. And some of Kerry's voting is really, really going to be hard to defend.

I don't think it will be that close.

But... again, just my $.02..........

PS - BigBlue, It is nice to see a young man taking interest in polictics and current events. Can I ask a question?

What are your parents political views?

Just curious.

[SintonFan]

PPHSfan:
Who was it that said...If you are under 30 and a republican you don't have a heart, but if you are over 30 and a Democrat, you don't have a brain? :D .
I think it was the same person who said, "When did the New York Democrat become a Republican?" When the liberal was mugged...
Just a reminder of who stands for pro and anti-American rights for gun ownership!
.

BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END:

PPHSfan:
I have a question for some of the Liberals.

Do you think that a person that makes $150,000.00 a year has a right to use more of the highway than a person who makes $30,000.00 a year?

Of course you dont.

But the fact of the matter is, the former contributes much more to the building of the road than the latter, so why is it not fair?

Your answer: Because he pays a percentage of his income which is higher, not because he pays more money.

What is your reasoning in that?

A true flat tax would be an equal dollar amount paid be each individual, not an equal percentage of income.

Do the rich use more of the programs that their dollars fund?

Hell NO, they use less. There are very few "rich" folks that use the hospital as their family doctor so that they don't have to pay medical insurance, yet the top 1% of the wage earners in this country pay over 1/3rd of the taxes it takes to keep that "County Health Care Facility in operation.

Do the rich use more of the fire department, the police department, or the Social Security division?

Answer these questions honestly and then tell me that it is the middle class that are getting screwed.Yes, he does put in more money, and yes, he is returned more money, but this is all done on a scale, and whether you put in $10,000 or $100,000, you are still going to get the same percentage in return. Everybody has to pay taxes, thats the way that it works. You're looking at it from the wrong side. Sure, they do contribute more to these costs, but thats just the way things are, and you're going to have this with a Democrat or a Republican in office. The only point that I'm trying to make is that large-scale corporations contribute money to the Republican nominees, and yes, they do contribute the the Democrats too and I'm not saying that they don't, but Republicans in office will return the favor when they are elected to office.

As a reply to JasperDog94, even with the tax cuts, other taxes such as property taxes are being raised, so either way you look at it, you're still going to have a raise in your taxes.

Chief Woodman-you have some great ideas, and these are some of the things that I too have seen and I agree with you on what you have said 100%

Old Card-that little story you wrote seems to be more Republican than Democratic and I think that it is incorrect in many aspects. You are trying to scandalize the name of the Democrats by saying this, and it is totally wrong. You had some good statistics, but I think that the murder rate has no real bearing on what kind of people voted for Al Gore. There is one little statistic that you neglected to put in there as well, there were many ballots that were uncounted, and Al Gore won the popular vote. Bush can win all the land that he wants, but does that necessarily mean that the population was higher in this area? Nope

SintonFan-yes, I may change my political beliefs as I get older, but I've picked up bits and pieces of information as I read the newspaper or the internet, and I've came to the conclusions that I have on my own, but I am a Democrat, and I'm pretty sure that I will never be a Republican...I just see them as too power hungry..
Don't take offense to this BIG BLUE but your statement: Yes, he does put in more money, and yes, he is returned more money, but this is all done on a scale, and whether you put in $10,000 or $100,000, you are still going to get the same percentage in return. needs some adjustment for the liberal context...
Yes, he or SHE(if your a democrat don't forget our founding mother Hillary cuz Martha is out) does put in more money, and yes, he or she is returned more money(are you talking about government returns? Democrats rule the roost when it comes to pork!), but this is all done on a scale, and whether you put in $10,000 or $100,000, you are still going to get the same percentage in return(If you calculated the percentage of someone who pays little taxes versus who someone pays alot the return will be drastically different.)
.
Don't forget the best trait of liberals: The ability to look you in the eye, lie and make you feel good about what they said.

[sinton66]

That's because democrats have the same traits that make a good salesman. A good salesman can tell a lie and convince himself it's true.

[Old Cardinal]

At 16 years of age, I admire your strong convictions Big Blue. If I were 16 and had never paid taxes, I too think it would be a great idea to raise taxes on all those working graveyard shifts and doing responsible jobs. That way all those that are not contributors(parasites)could live even better, based on there voting power...It galls me each year when the 40% who pay no taxes or, almost no taxes, try to get laid off when hunting season rolls around so they can draw unemployment and live off the year round working taxpayers....I have re-read your post and predict that you will someday be a good contributor to society and will not be a blood-sucking leach. With your snap and a little maturity you will be that 4.0 hardworking student and will help make the USA a strong vibrant country in the future.

[Buckeye80]

Old Cardinal:
Grandfather just smiled and said, "It looks like you will make a good Republican and Albert will make a good "Yellow Dog Democrat".Hee Hee Hee!!! Good story. :D

This topic reminds my of something a Captain told me when I was in the Marine Corps. We were discussing the state of the country and topics of national interest such as: how homosexuals are being pushed down our throats (so to speak), how affirmative action is a scam, welfare, medicaid, frivolous lawsuits, whether or not Barbara Billingsley is hot....etc. Y'all know! That kind of stuff!
Anyhoo, we started talking about how the military was currently being down-sized at an astronomical rate, and he enlightened me as to this fact. Throughout history, look at the "great" empires: the Persians, the Romans, and various others. Historically, when a government became so corrupt and so self-consumed that the people began to call upon the military to assist them in (I use this term loosely, "overthrowing") those in power, the government began mass down-sizing of the military.
Point being! Our military endured one of the largest down-sizings in U.S. history five years into "Slick Willie's" comical reign as President.
I don't agree with every single thing that comes out of Michael Reagan's or Rush Limbaugh's or Sean Hannity's collective mouth, but I cannot in good conscience support a party (the Democrats) who want to turn our country into San Angeles from "Demolition Man". I like who I am, and I like that I can say things that pi$$ people off. It's my right.
I will never support abortion. I will never support homosexuality. And I will never feel guilty for horrible things that white people did to black people 150 years ago. Let the media shove all this crap in my face as much as they would like, but I will continue to think my way as long as it's legal to do so.

[Buckeye80]

Sorta' went off on a tangent there, but what are you gonna' do? Politics get me going! :cool:

[Buckeye80]

And let me clarify that by no means am I racist toward anyone, black or otherwise. That comment was directed at people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson whose entire reason for being seems to be that "the white man" is keeping "the black man" down and has been since the days of slavery. I simply don't agree with this way of thinking.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Old Cardinal:
At 16 years of age, I admire your strong convictions Big Blue. If I were 16 and had never paid taxes, I too think it would be a great idea to raise taxes on all those working graveyard shifts and doing responsible jobs. That way all those that are not contributors(parasites)could live even better, based on there voting power...It galls me each year when the 40% who pay no taxes or, almost no taxes, try to get laid off when hunting season rolls around so they can draw unemployment and live off the year round working taxpayers....I have re-read your post and predict that you will someday be a good contributor to society and will not be a blood-sucking leach. With your snap and a little maturity you will be that 4.0 hardworking student and will help make the USA a strong vibrant country in the future.Yeah, I do agree with you on the thing about taxes. I think that it is ridiculous to help people who won't help themselves, but there are actually some people who do need help, so to scrap the whole thing isn't going to work. I live on a farm about 15 miles out of town, and I see farmers with government help who plant corn only to have it eaten by the grasshoppers, and know that the corn is going to get eaten by grasshoppers, and do not prepare their land by fertlizing it or plowing it and put little effort to at least get the smallest amount of crop production, and these people have massive John Deere tractors that cost around $150,000 and equipment that only a farming family like the one I live in could dream of. They get all of the benefits from the government, so they can afford those tractors and equipment and add another 1000 acres to their land so that they can get even more benefits. Then there is the little guy who is on a cabless tractor in the middle of winter plowing and putting gallons and gallons of fertilizer on his crop, to turn around and have it eaten too, and not get little or no money in return. Is it just me, or does something seem wrong with this picture? I'm totally with you on this Old Card, this is something that bothers me, and I really see no way to fix it. And to answer another question by Slypbear the Bullfan, my parents do vote democratic, and yes, this has rubbed off on me, but they really don't talk to me all that much about their political views and most of what I believe, I have came to this conclusion on my own.

[JasperDog94]

I agree with you on farming subsidies (sp?) Big Blue. I wish I could get paid to NOT PLANT crops. :D :D :D

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Yeah, no kidding, everybody seems to forget about the little man.

[slpybear the bullfan]

BigBlue,

My wife's family were all into the dairy business. ...were... I know all about little guys getting squeezed out by big guys. And that is one topic that I think neither party really cares much about.

I know you will hate me for saying this, but IMHO your political views are still in the formation stage. They will solidify in about 10 years. Don't be suprised if some of the things that fire you up now seem real unimportant soon. And don't be suprised if you change your mind a few times. I am just sharing from my experiences and don't mean to sound like a parent... (although I am... wink )

[Old Cardinal]

Big Blue: You seem to have a lot of snap. Get any book by Dr. Paul Zane Pilzer a premier Christian Economist and write your next HS book report on it. Don't let any of us form your opinions for you....Read a variety of sides to each issue and be flexible to wait and form your core opinions at about 25 years of age.... I once read a very funny letter where a farmer was quizing the U.S. Department of Agriculture as to which crop would be the highest in price that year so he could claim THAT crop as the one he sought subsidy on for not planting that year.

<small>[ February 28, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Old Cardinal ]</small>

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Slpybear the bullfan, I take no offense as to what you said, and yes, my political views may change as I get older. I know that I'm still young and still have a lot to learn, but I have taken into account what ya'll have said on here and appreciate the input and the information that everybody has put on here because it has openned my view to other things that I would not have seen otherwise.

[3ABirdMan]

BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END:
... I know that I'm still young and still have a lot to learn, but I have taken into account what ya'll have said on here and appreciate the input and the information that everybody has put on here because it has openned my view to other things that I would not have seen otherwise.And that is why I believe you will grow, and mature, and become a contributing member of Society in a few years, whether you vote Democratic or Republican. You are not so lost in your opinions that you cannot see or hear others points of views, without having to agree or disagree. Keep your mind open, and never lose sight of what is Right and what is Wrong. Let your conscience, your morals, and GOD be your guide.