Muhammad Ali dies at age 74

[Roughneck93]

http://giant.gfycat.com/CloseVeneratedHorseshoebat.gif
http://www.alanpun.com/

[regaleagle]

Very articulate and intelligent for a boxer that was often misunderstood by John Q Public and portrayed as a racist. I think in his era there were individuals that took advantage of his popularity and caused him even more malignment than he had already endured. He caused much of his own, but willingly did so for various reasons. Overall, one of the best ever, if not the most talented and intelligent boxer of all time. When he boxed......everybody wanted to watch.

[1st and goal]

He was a draft dodger.

[regaleagle]

He was a draft dodger.

Not really all that important in the grand scheme of things. The military has many, many people to choose from that want to serve....he didn't. Some want the benefits, some want the experience, some want a better opportunity, and some are very patriotic. Some have legacies in the family. And some don't have any desire whatsoever to be in a military lifestyle and serve. I'm a believer in free choice.....unless the situation dictates otherwise like in WWII.

[slingshot]

Never was a fan... Did not like the way he belittled his opponents and did nothing but loudly proclaim his greatness. Was a complete jerk until old age and medical problems caught up with him, then he became this 'great humanitarian'.

[speedbump]

I'm a believer in free choice.....unless the situation dictates otherwise like in WWII.

Changing religions and then hiding behind it,was a choice every American that was about to be drafted had. They didn't have those or any other of the free choices you're a believer in,because of people like cassius clay. Maybe they can bury him in a country he cared about.

[BwdLion73]

Not really all that important in the grand scheme of things. The military has many, many people to choose from that want to serve....he didn't. Some want the benefits, some want the experience, some want a better opportunity, and some are very patriotic. Some have legacies in the family. And some don't have any desire whatsoever to be in a military lifestyle and serve. I'm a believer in free choice.....unless the situation dictates otherwise like in WWII.

That's not quite right. He was not the only one who did not want to go to Viet Nam.

Some people were raised different and were taught that it was their duty as an American. I registered as did most. Believe me when I tell you that when my Birthday lotto number was double digit I was confident that against my wishes it was time to sing "and its one two three what are we fighting for...don't matter I don't give a damn...next stop is Viet Nam".

He was a great Boxer and I wish nothing but the best for his family in their time of loss, but I still have trouble with some accolades he receives.

I kind of like Nixon for saving me...;)

[regaleagle]

Wasn't saying that I agreed with his choices.....only that he made them and was a great boxer despite all his malignment.....whether self-imposed or not. We all have choices to make in life, and some regrets with certain choices we make along the way.

[bobcat1]

He was great at boxing and running his mouth. Did not agree with the change in name and religion just to avoid serving. Didn't like that he called Frazier Uncle Tom or Gorilla. He should have never received any award in my opinion.

[Tejastrue]

We must consider and keep in mind the time frame and the mindset of our culture. I really can't say...being in his shoes..what choices I would have made. With that said he was indeed an integral part of sports history and very influential towards American history.

[griff]

I'm in agreement with bobcat1, speedbump, and slingshot.

Ali's status in boxing lore comes from the fact that if you say something loud enough and long enough, people will believe it. Ali coined the phrase "I'm the greatest" and over time the gullible masses just sucked it up. Ali was the greatest SELF-PROMOTER and SHOWMAN the boxing world ever saw, but he was NOT the greatest boxer of all time. Not even the greatest heavyweight. To this day he is likely still the most recognized athlete of the last century, but I was not a fan. Draft dodger, absorbing himself in a religion that promotes hatred for America, calling Joe Frazier "Uncle Tom" and many other personal insults of opponents, all of the fights where he was given a winning decision when he clearly lost (esp. Ken Norton and Jimmy Young fights), and the undeserved "humanitarian" recognition. He is probably the one athlete most responsible for popularizing trash-talking and disrespect for your opponent. He had no shred of good sportsmanship in him. For all the reasons listed, I despised him.

The rope-a-dope strategy he used against George Foreman and Ron Lyle would have garnered him a disqualification if those matches had occurred a few years later. You can't just stand around the ring and cover up. If you don't fight back, you will receive a deduction in points and if it continued, a disqualification.

[Third]

The rope-a-dope strategy he used against George Foreman and Ron Lyle would have garnered him a disqualification if those matches had occurred a few years later. You can't just stand around the ring and cover up. If you don't fight back, you will receive a deduction in points and if it continued, a disqualification.

Your opinion on everything else is your opinion and I respect your right to it but on this point I'm confused. He knocked out Foreman, how was he not fighting back?

[griff]

In the early rounds, Ali mostly covered up and did not throw punches. He tried the same thing against Ron Lyle, but Lyle conserved himself and did not take the bait. The obvious Ali strategy, especially in the Foreman fight, was to let George wing away and tire himself out. It worked, but in this day the ring official will deduct points if any boxer tried the rope-a-dope. If it continues after warnings and deductions, the ref will disqualify the fighter. The rules of boxing have evolved since Ali used that strategy, hence, no one tries this anymore.

[Macarthur]

He was a draft dodger.

No, he was not.
http://rare.us/story/muhammad-ali-was-no-draft-dodger-but-here-are-a-bunch-of-famous-people-who-were/

[BwdLion73]

No, he was not.
http://rare.us/story/muhammad-ali-was-no-draft-dodger-but-here-are-a-bunch-of-famous-people-who-were/

Jack Hunter....:1popcorn:

[Matthew328]

Ali may have dodged the draft but he didnt run to Canada he faced the music and consequences of his actions...he gave up a lot...right or wrong you have to give credit that he was willing to sacrifice for his principles...

[speedbump]

Ali may have dodged the draft but he didnt run to Canada he faced the music and consequences of his actions...he gave up a lot...right or wrong you have to give credit that he was willing to sacrifice for his principles...

BS - I don't. I'll give credit to those that cared about their country and proved it. I remember those days too well to ever stoop low enough to give that pos credit for anything.

[Matthew328]

BS - I don't. I'll give credit to those that cared about their country and proved it. I remember those days too well to ever stoop low enough to give that pos credit for anything.

Hey we all have opinions

[speedbump]

Hey we all have opinions

I got mine from being here.

[Macarthur]

BS - I don't. I'll give credit to those that cared about their country and proved it. I remember those days too well to ever stoop low enough to give that pos credit for anything.

Couple of things. First, you assume that those that would not go to war automatically don't care for their country. That's dubious.

Secondly, if you think he's a POS, I'm assuming you feel the same about the other guys mentioned in the article that were far less principled in their not wanting to go. If fact, I would say those that the article mentioned were actually cowards. Ali was no coward.

The other thing you can't leave out of this discussion is the context of the time and society. The civil rights movement was still fresh and blacks still did not have rights entitled to them. There's also the fact that we know now, without a shadow of a doubt, that we had no business being in that war. It was a farce. That doesn't make the men that fought in it any less brave. My FIL was drafted and did what he felt he had to do - go fight. And he will tell you straight up - it was a BS war and we had no business there. And he holds no ill will to Ali.

[speedbump]

Couple of things. First, you assume that those that would not go to war automatically don't care for their country. That's dubious.

Secondly, if you think he's a POS, I'm assuming you feel the same about the other guys mentioned in the article that were far less principled in their not wanting to go. If fact, I would say those that the article mentioned were actually cowards. Ali was no coward.

The other thing you can't leave out of this discussion is the context of the time and society. The civil rights movement was still fresh and blacks still did not have rights entitled to them. There's also the fact that we know now, without a shadow of a doubt, that we had no business being in that war. It was a farce. That doesn't make the men that fought in it any less brave. My FIL was drafted and did what he felt he had to do - go fight. And he will tell you straight up - it was a BS war and we had no business there. And he holds no ill will to Ali.

The problem with you telling me anything about 1967 is - you were born in 1971 when I was 24 years old. I lived in that time and that society. I don't hate cassius clay because he didn't want to die in some rice paddy, nobody did. Many got out of it however they could. It's all about the way he thumbed his nose at this country and the people who were fighting so he could keep sucking up the milk and honey. His attitude and big mouth said it all. You shoulda been here.

[Macarthur]

The problem with you telling me anything about 1967 is - you were born in 1971 when I was 24 years old. I lived in that time and that society. I don't hate cassius clay because he didn't want to die in some rice paddy, nobody did. Many got out of it however they could. It's all about the way he thumbed his nose at this country and the people who were fighting so he could keep sucking up the milk and honey. His attitude and big mouth said it all. You shoulda been here.

If I'm factually wrong, correct me, but this has nothing to do with me and my age. Just because I wasn't there doesn't mean I'm not educated about what was going on in the country.

So I'm clear, do you not like him 'draft dodging' or do you not like him because he liked to talk trash?

[speedbump]

If I'm factually wrong, correct me, but this has nothing to do with me and my age. Just because I wasn't there doesn't mean I'm not educated about what was going on in the country.

So I'm clear, do you not like him 'draft dodging' or do you not like him because he liked to talk trash?

A little of the dodging and a whole bunch about him talking trash about that and my country. I'm sure there is not another human being in this country,that I have less respect for. End of discussion

[Macarthur]

A little of the dodging and a whole bunch about him talking trash about that and my country. I'm sure there is not another human being in this country,that I have less respect for. End of discussion

Let me ask you this. Do you not at least one little bit, understand why a black person in the 1960s America would not be quite as motivated as you to die for this country?

[BwdLion73]

Let me ask you this. Do you not at least one little bit, understand why a black person in the 1960s America would not be quite as motivated as you to die for this country?

Goodness Macarthur, think about that for a second. What about WW ll ? I did not know anyone of any race that was "motivated" to die. It's the off season and HOT....but really if you want to discuss and debate I understand but ....

[speedbump]

Let me ask you this. Do you not at least one little bit, understand why a black person in the 1960s America would not be quite as motivated as you to die for this country?

https://army.togetherweserved.com/army/servlet/tws.webapp.WebApp?cmd=ShadowBoxProfile&type=Person&ID=59635

SP5 McClatchy's older brother Percy was KIA in Saigon in August 1966,

[Macarthur]

Goodness Macarthur, think about that for a second. What about WW ll ? I did not know anyone of any race that was "motivated" to die. It's the off season and HOT....but really if you want to discuss and debate I understand but ....

you're deflecting a bit.

Okay, so does 'fighting for one's country' make you feel better?

[Macarthur]

https://army.togetherweserved.com/army/servlet/tws.webapp.WebApp?cmd=ShadowBoxProfile&type=Person&ID=59635

SP5 McClatchy's older brother Percy was KIA in Saigon in August 1966,

You're not answering my question. There's no doubt that there were and have been people of all races and creeds that have paid the ultimate price.

What I'm asking you, is given what you know about civil rights in this country (seeing as how you were alive for a good part of it), can you not understand AT LEAST A LITTLE why SOME blacks might not want to go halfway across the globe and fight?

[MUSTANG69]

You're not answering my question. There's no doubt that there were and have been people of all races and creeds that have paid the ultimate price.

What I'm asking you, is given what you know about civil rights in this country (seeing as how you were alive for a good part of it), can you not understand AT LEAST A LITTLE why SOME blacks might not want to go halfway across the globe and fight?

Flipside to that. Can you not understand AT LEAST A LITTLE BIT why Speedbump may feel like he does. If you were old enough to experience that time period you might understand his feelings better. Experience is a lot more educational than reading about it. That's all I got to say.

[PurplePop]

Very interesting discussion. I agree with Matthew that at least Ali took a stand and paid a price for not going to Vietnam. He didn't box two years during his prime years (ages 25-26?). It wasn't the most convincing stand, that's for sure. But rich guys like George Bush, Al Gore, etc. found much more politically correct ways to avoid the fighting in Vietnam. I 100% respect and understand those who did fight despising Ali. I don't think race enters into it. Just money. As for Ali the boxer, by the mid-70's, he had slowed a bit from his prime. He would have been 29 or 30 when he fought Frazier the first time. He was already past his prime. Watch some highlights of Clay in the '60's. Pretty amazing.

[Macarthur]

Flipside to that. Can you not understand AT LEAST A LITTLE BIT why Speedbump may feel like he does. If you were old enough to experience that time period you might understand his feelings better. Experience is a lot more educational than reading about it. That's all I got to say.

I certainly can understand why guys that went are bitter. I just want to make sure the bitterness is directed properly. I have family that went so I understand completely. Is that bitterness directed at Rush Limbaugh, also. How about Ted Nugent? What bugs me to no end are the Hawks that bang the war drum but never stepped up to the plate themselves to answer the call. IMO, there is nothing worse that a POS like Ted Nugent or Limbaugh banging the war drum to send our men and women into harms way when they went to such great lengths to avoid it themselves.

And I disagree with you that it isn't about race with some. There is absolutely no question that race plays a role for SOME.

AND, he lost like 4 years, not two, of his prime. Lost tons of money.

[MUSTANG69]

I certainly can understand why guys that went are bitter. I just want to make sure the bitterness is directed properly. I have family that went so I understand completely. Is that bitterness directed at Rush Limbaugh, also. How about Ted Nugent? What bugs me to no end are the Hawks that bang the war drum but never stepped up to the plate themselves to answer the call. IMO, there is nothing worse that a POS like Ted Nugent or Limbaugh banging the war drum to send our men and women into harms way when they went to such great lengths to avoid it themselves.

And I disagree with you that it isn't about race with some. There is absolutely no question that race plays a role for SOME.

AND, he lost like 4 years, not two, of his prime. Lost tons of money.

Please point out the part of my statement that said anything about race.

[Macarthur]

Purplepop mentioned that

[speedbump]

You're not answering my question. There's no doubt that there were and have been people of all races and creeds that have paid the ultimate price.

What I'm asking you, is given what you know about civil rights in this country (seeing as how you were alive for a good part of it), can you not understand AT LEAST A LITTLE why SOME blacks might not want to go halfway across the globe and fight?

I copied the following from your signature -(Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.) LOL

[Macarthur]

:doh:

[speedbump]

:doh:

Over your head?

[Macarthur]

Over your head?

Yeah. That's it. Lol.

[1st and goal]

He was a draft dodger.

I can see why liberals would like him.

[Macarthur]

He was a draft dodger.

I can see why liberals would like him.

If he was a dodger, how about your bastion of conservatism buddies mentioned in the article I linked?

It's okay if youre a draft dodger if you have the right politics now, huh?

[maestro]

The ' 60's and that war !!!!!
You can see why it is still a polarizing subject.

God Bless the men who served and paid the ultimate price. All were brave.

We as a country are still suffering from the " distrust of our government " as a result of that Asian War.

It is scary to find out that " possibly " our government and news agencies were not truthful to the public.
It is very tough to judge that time period while living in present times, but most students of History fight that problem all of the time.

[1st and goal]

If he was a dodger, how about your bastion of conservatism buddies mentioned in the article I linked?

It's okay if youre a draft dodger if you have the right politics now, huh?

Watch the first episode of Band of Brothers. They have some interviews at the beginning with some of the old, war heroes. They were mostly talking about signing up and volunteering for their country. One of the guys said something like "In my small hometown, everyone went down to sign up. There were 4 that were disqualified that committed suicide (because they couldn't serve)."

[Macarthur]

Watch the first episode of Band of Brothers. They have some interviews at the beginning with some of the old, war heroes. They were mostly talking about signing up and volunteering for their country. One of the guys said something like "In my small hometown, everyone went down to sign up. There were 4 that were disqualified that committed suicide (because they couldn't serve)."

Totally diff war. We were attacked. Apples and oranges.

[Macarthur]

The ' 60's and that war !!!!!
You can see why it is still a polarizing subject.

God Bless the men who served and paid the ultimate price. All were brave.

We as a country are still suffering from the " distrust of our government " as a result of that Asian War.

It is scary to find out that " possibly " our government and news agencies were not truthful to the public.
It is very tough to judge that time period while living in present times, but most students of History fight that problem all of the time.

There really is no "possibly" about it.

That war was a sham. There's really not much debate about it.

Again, that's not the fault of the men that fought but make no intake, we were lied to.

[bobcat1]

If he was a dodger, how about your bastion of conservatism buddies mentioned in the article I linked?

It's okay if youre a draft dodger if you have the right politics now, huh?

Who was President when the Sham War started? Exactly. Seems like political affiliation arguments don't apply here. He took up a religion to avoid fighting for the country in which he lived period.

[Macarthur]

Who was President when the Sham War started? Exactly. Seems like political affiliation arguments don't apply here. He took up a religion to avoid fighting for the country in which he lived period.

If your point is both parties suck, you'll get no argument from me. Not a nickels worth of diff in them.

But I think you're off base saying he took up a religion solely to avoide the war. And if he did, that's still more noble than the other POS mentioned in the article.

[PurplePop]

I want to revise my prior comments on this topic out respect for those who have served. In my first post, I said Ali deserves some credit for taking a stand based on religion and sacrificing some of the best years of his career. The first part of that statement kind of stands, but just kind of. Ali did take a stand based on his new found religion. But, not fighting in Vietnam was one of the few aspects of his new religion that he abided by, which makes you wonder about the seriousness of the conversion. As for sacrificing, in all actuality, those years would have been gone regardless of what he did (report to duty, head to Canada, become a Muslim and claim religious objection, ???). There were many baseball greats who lost quality years for very real service during WWII. Ted Williams comes to mind.) But, what has really changed my mind on this topic was going back and reading articles about Ali calling Frazier an Uncle Tom and a tool of the white establishment because Frazier didn't join Ali in objecting to the war. In my mind, that is grade A despicable POS behavior that erases any credit I give him for "taking a stand." Ali wanted to be seen by the public as a man acting on principle but he royally disrespected Frazier's principles on the same topic. And, as royally as a black man can disrespect another black man. (I think. I'm not black.) Ali can't have it both ways. So, for what it's worth (pretty much nothing), I'm placing Ali in the POS category on this topic, but he is way lower on the list than all the momma's boy, silver-spoon white politicians (Clinton, Bush, Gore, Kerry) that avoided fighting because their daddy's pulled some strings and they suffered no negative repercussions whatsoever. Here's an article that changed my mind on the topic.

http://www.boxingscene.com/muhammad-ali-joe-frazier-feud-vicious-lasted-decades--105366

[bobcat1]

If your point is both parties suck, you'll get no argument from me. Not a nickels worth of diff in them.

But I think you're off base saying he took up a religion solely to avoide the war. And if he did, that's still more noble than the other POS mentioned in the article.
Noble? BS! That word does not fit with him.

[Macarthur]

Noble? BS! That word does not fit with him.

You are still avoiding answering the question, as are others. Hold Ali to the same standard you would others.

[Macarthur]

I want to revise my prior comments on this topic out respect for those who have served. In my first post, I said Ali deserves some credit for taking a stand based on religion and sacrificing some of the best years of his career. The first part of that statement kind of stands, but just kind of. Ali did take a stand based on his new found religion. But, not fighting in Vietnam was one of the few aspects of his new religion that he abided by, which makes you wonder about the seriousness of the conversion. As for sacrificing, in all actuality, those years would have been gone regardless of what he did (report to duty, head to Canada, become a Muslim and claim religious objection, ???). There were many baseball greats who lost quality years for very real service during WWII. Ted Williams comes to mind.) But, what has really changed my mind on this topic was going back and reading articles about Ali calling Frazier an Uncle Tom and a tool of the white establishment because Frazier didn't join Ali in objecting to the war. In my mind, that is grade A despicable POS behavior that erases any credit I give him for "taking a stand." Ali wanted to be seen by the public as a man acting on principle but he royally disrespected Frazier's principles on the same topic. And, as royally as a black man can disrespect another black man. (I think. I'm not black.) Ali can't have it both ways. So, for what it's worth (pretty much nothing), I'm placing Ali in the POS category on this topic, but he is way lower on the list than all the momma's boy, silver-spoon white politicians (Clinton, Bush, Gore, Kerry) that avoided fighting because their daddy's pulled some strings and they suffered no negative repercussions whatsoever. Here's an article that changed my mind on the topic.

http://www.boxingscene.com/muhammad-ali-joe-frazier-feud-vicious-lasted-decades--105366

And Ali admitted he was wrong and apologized. He was wrong in all that.

So if some one makes a mistake in their lives p, they are always in POS category w you?

[bobcat1]

You are still avoiding answering the question, as are others. Hold Ali to the same standard you would others.
I don't care who the draft dodger is. A draft dodger is a draft dodger so Quit deflecting. Cassius Clay aka Muhammad Ali is the subject of this thread. So stay on track please. Subject change initiated by you is a direct loss in a debate.

[Macarthur]

I don't care who the draft dodger is. A draft dodger is a draft dodger so Quit deflecting. Cassius Clay aka Muhammad Ali is the subject of this thread. So stay on track please. Subject change initiated by you is a direct loss in a debate.

Not a deflection. Just wanted you to clarify your answer which you did.