4A split divisions

[Leopard4Life]

After a year of having the divisions split before the playoffs what is everyone's opinion of the split?

The reason I asked is they took a "survey" for a 5A split, but the UIL has their staff "continuing to monitor" the issue.


Article is pretty informative

highschoolsportsblog.dallasnews.com/2015/06/split-classification-in-class-5a-football-will-have-to-wait-despite-positive-survey-results.html/

Spring 2015 Superintendent results on 5A split-classification for football

Conf. & Reg. Yes (%) No (%) No Response
5A Region I 19 (45.2%) 21 (50.0%) 2 (4.8%)
5A Region II 25 (55.6%) 20 (44.4%) 0
5A Region III 23 (52.3%) 21 (47.7%) 0
5A Region IV 38 (86.4%) 6 (13.6%) 0
TOTAL 105 (60.0%) 68 (38.9%) 2 (1.1%)

Read more: http://texas4asports.proboards.com/thread/4897/5a-split-div-ii#ixzz3dWDODrsX

[Rocket Man]

I'm an old schooler and didn't like it.

Playing against one set of schools for football and a different set for everything else. I really don't see the point; if the smaller schools are at a disadvantage for football, are they not at the same disadvantage for the other sports too?

Soviet UIL :speech:

[hollywood]

I'm an old schooler and didn't like it.

Playing against one set of schools for football and a different set for everything else. I really don't see the point; if the smaller schools are at a disadvantage for football, are they not at the same disadvantage for the other sports too?

Soviet UIL :speech:

Good points Rocket Man. Obviously there are pros and cons to each system.

Example: When a smaller school plays a bigger school in football within the same classification (in previous years district alignments) they typically complain it's not fair if they lose but boast about beating a larger school.

[Rabid Cougar]

I'm an old schooler and didn't like it.

Playing against one set of schools for football and a different set for everything else. I really don't see the point; if the smaller schools are at a disadvantage for football, are they not at the same disadvantage for the other sports too?

Soviet UIL :speech:

Tell that to Lorena

[Rabid Cougar]

good points rocket man. Obviously there are pros and cons to each system.

Example: When a smaller school plays a bigger school in football within the same classification (in previous years district alignments) they typically complain it's not fair if they lose but boast about beating a larger school.

Lorena!

[YTBulldogs]

Yeah, keep same district for football, for all sports.

[Rocket Man]

Tell that to Lorena

Along with Celina, Gilmer, WOS, Gladewater, Iowa Park, La Grange and a host of other smaller schools that compete at a high level.

I just have a problem with the inconsistency of classifying schools for football differently than they are classified for the other sports. Maybe it's my OCD from being a CPA?????????

[chaingang]

Along with Celina, Gilmer, WOS, Gladewater, Iowa Park, La Grange and a host of other smaller schools that compete at a high level.

I just have a problem with the inconsistency of classifying schools for football differently than they are classified for the other sports. Maybe it's my OCD from being a CPA?????????

IMO, those teams are the exception and not the rule. 99% of the time, WOS is way smaller than their opponent. Heck, even when i played in the 90's we were a large 4A(Now 5A) but still only suited up 30 kids. Our program isnt for the faint of heart. We just always played up and with a chip on our shoulder. We start preparing our kids at a very young age. Our pee wee runs similar sets to our Varsity. We also have some former players that go out of their way to volunteer to coach our youth leagues. One of the great ones is WOS1 on this site. And trust me, they know Mustang football. I guess what im trying to say is that all the teams you mention are always good no matter their size because of the culture they teach the youth in those cities. On to my other point, for some good reasons, it does seem to be the case that other sports besides football are more forgiving in the small vs big school debate. In football its hard for a team that has to go both ways playing against a school that has 3 backups to each position. In Baseball it doesnt matter if you suit out 12 or 24, only 9 play every inning(10 w/ DH). See my point?

[toddg]

IMO, those teams are the exception and not the rule. 99% of the time, WOS is way smaller than their opponent. Heck, even when i played in the 90's we were a large 4A(Now 5A) but still only suited up 30 kids. Our program isnt for the faint of heart. We just always played up and with a chip on our shoulder. We start preparing our kids at a very young age. Our pee wee runs similar sets to our Varsity. We also have some former players that go out of their way to volunteer to coach our youth leagues. One of the great ones is WOS1 on this site. And trust me, they know Mustang football. I guess what im trying to say is that all the teams you mention are always good no matter their size because of the culture they teach the youth in those cities. On to my other point, for some good reasons, it does seem to be the case that other sports besides football are more forgiving in the small vs big school debate. In football its hard for a team that has to go both ways playing against a school that has 3 backups to each position. In Baseball it doesnt matter if you suit out 12 or 24, only 9 play every inning(10 w/ DH). See my point? thats a sharp point!!

[speedbump]

Yeah, keep same district for football, for all sports.

And you'll cover the Exxon bill, right?

[regaleagle]

Along with Celina, Gilmer, WOS, Gladewater, Iowa Park, La Grange and a host of other smaller schools that compete at a high level.

I just have a problem with the inconsistency of classifying schools for football differently than they are classified for the other sports. Maybe it's my OCD from being a CPA?????????

Argyle had less than 10 students more than Gilmer on enrollment day. Argyle's typically competed against larger enrollments since they moved up to 3A(now 4A). Finally got to a mid-size school but the 2nd smallest enrollment in 4A-D1. So nothing has really changed for Argyle thru the years. They compete with all comers.....whoever wants to schedule us.....big or small, in all endeavors.

[Leopard4Life]

Argyle had less than 10 students more than Gilmer on enrollment day. Argyle's typically competed against larger enrollments since they moved up to 3A(now 4A). Finally got to a mid-size school but the 2nd smallest enrollment in 4A-D1. So nothing has really changed for Argyle thru the years. They compete with all comers.....whoever wants to schedule us.....big or small, in all endeavors.

Have you been drinking the Refugio Kool-Aid? Within 4A Argyle is fine or playing down. Argyle played Denison (a mediocre 5A and barely pulled out a win). Argyle has a great program, but size and depth matter.

[FB-fanatic]

I'm an old schooler and didn't like it.

Playing against one set of schools for football and a different set for everything else. I really don't see the point; if the smaller schools are at a disadvantage for football, are they not at the same disadvantage for the other sports too?

Soviet UIL :speech:

O.k., I'll chime in from a smaller school perspective. The differential in size is amplified in football, vs basketball and baseball. For example, the MT Rice basketball tourney at Midway every year. This tourney will often pit a Lorena size school vs. a 5A or 6A, and many times the smaller school will hold it's own or win. Same in baseball vs Killeen or such.

But what do you think the results of a Lorena vs Midway in football would be, or a RR or CS vs a Plano East or Midway would be turn out in football?

I think the China Springs and Robinsons and Stephenville's would sing a different toon if they were playing the Killeen Elison's or Midways...

And I'll put it to Hollywood: what if the Yellowjackets were aligned with Midway each year? Lose a couple of years in a row and it's pretty tough road, maybe complain a little... beat Midway, you don't think your gonna tell a few friends or two about that one? I don't see a contradiction.

[FB-fanatic]

Tell that to Lorena

:1popcorn:

[regaleagle]

Have you been drinking the Refugio Kool-Aid? Within 4A Argyle is fine or playing down. Argyle played Denison (a mediocre 5A and barely pulled out a win). Argyle has a great program, but size and depth matter.

First game of the year after a large senior class had graduated. Young players and a qb that had never started a varsity game.....still won. Not talking specifics, just generalities to get the point across. And in all sports, not just football. Argyle regularly defeats 5A and 6A basketball teams that are darn good. In baseball, Argyle didn't play a single game in predistrict with a lower classification or any 4A classification....just larger ones.....just to affirm the facts. What happened??? They defeated Pleasant Grove and went on to win the State Championship.....didn't lose a single game in the playoffs. Sometimes the kool-aid tastes pretty darn refreshing compared to sour Gatorade.

[Aesculus gilmus]

As a fan, I would have preferred not splitting the divisions before the season. It destroyed several classic "District of Doom" rivalries. But I know that our previous coach who just left for UT was STRONGLY in favor of the preseason split.

It is going to work out fine as long as gas prices are relatively low. But, to be honest, Melissa may be a great place to live, but I didn't enjoy the road trip there last fall.

The district in which Gilmer was placed, as if we had some tie to so-called "North Texas" (what used to be called the "Metroplex" until recently), was the worst thing about last year's realignment.

I personally feel a bit horrified when I have to drive west out of the piney woods. Once I hit that Blackland Prairie, I know I am about to be in the midst of about seven million people all trying to drive somewhere at the same time.

[hollywood]

As a fan, I would have preferred not splitting the divisions before the season. It destroyed several classic "District of Doom" rivalries. But I know that our previous coach who just left for UT was STRONGLY in favor of the preseason split.

It is going to work out fine as long as gas prices are relatively low. But, to be honest, Melissa may be a great place to live, but I didn't enjoy the road trip there last fall.

The district in which Gilmer was placed, as if we had some tie to so-called "North Texas" (what used to be called the "Metroplex" until recently), was the worst thing about last year's realignment.

I personally feel a bit horrified when I have to drive west out of the piney woods. Once I hit that Blackland Prairie, I know I am about to be in the midst of about seven million people all trying to drive somewhere at the same time.

It's all relative my friend. I have the same feeling of horrific measures when I enter the deep piney woods! Banjo's, jugs, claustrophobia... Gives me the heebie-jeebies! :ack!:

[Rocket Man]

IMO, those teams are the exception and not the rule. 99% of the time, WOS is way smaller than their opponent. Heck, even when i played in the 90's we were a large 4A(Now 5A) but still only suited up 30 kids. Our program isnt for the faint of heart. We just always played up and with a chip on our shoulder. We start preparing our kids at a very young age. Our pee wee runs similar sets to our Varsity. We also have some former players that go out of their way to volunteer to coach our youth leagues. One of the great ones is WOS1 on this site. And trust me, they know Mustang football. I guess what im trying to say is that all the teams you mention are always good no matter their size because of the culture they teach the youth in those cities. On to my other point, for some good reasons, it does seem to be the case that other sports besides football are more forgiving in the small vs big school debate. In football its hard for a team that has to go both ways playing against a school that has 3 backups to each position. In Baseball it doesnt matter if you suit out 12 or 24, only 9 play every inning(10 w/ DH). See my point?

Well, let's take baseball............you're correct about only 9 playing at a time; however, if a larger school has a larger pool of talent from which to choose, then their 9 players are (general assumption here) likely to be more talented than the 9 players chosen from a smaller pool of talent at the smaller school. In addition to a higher talent level, the larger school is also likely to have a deeper bullpen which is a distinct advantage.

The only thing I was trying to say earlier is that if School A has a +250 enrollment advantage over School B, then School A has 250 more kids for all the UIL competitions, not just football. It just seems inconsistent to divide the schools one way for football and another way for everything else. If anyone has taken offense or felt that I have slighted your school with my comments, then I apologize as such was far, far from my intention in stating my opinion about what I perceive to be an inconsistency on the part of the UIL.

[Twirling Time]

The issue in football is depth.

If you just took the best 11 from, say, Argyle and hypothetically matched them against the best 11 from Denton Guyer, Argyle may well hold its own.

But when you project that out to platoon offenses and defenses and backups, the bigger school's quality begins to show and the smaller school will eventually wear down.

Even if the smaller school has 100+ out for football, odds are the second-string DE on the big team is as good as or better than the small team's starting tackle.

[chaingang]

Well, let's take baseball............you're correct about only 9 playing at a time; however, if a larger school has a larger pool of talent from which to choose, then their 9 players are (general assumption here) likely to be more talented than the 9 players chosen from a smaller pool of talent at the smaller school. In addition to a higher talent level, the larger school is also likely to have a deeper bullpen which is a distinct advantage.

The only thing I was trying to say earlier is that if School A has a +250 enrollment advantage over School B, then School A has 250 more kids for all the UIL competitions, not just football. It just seems inconsistent to divide the schools one way for football and another way for everything else. If anyone has taken offense or felt that I have slighted your school with my comments, then I apologize as such was far, far from my intention in stating my opinion about what I perceive to be an inconsistency on the part of the UIL.

No offense at all. I took it as a discussion topic. I do see your point on a larger talent pool. I was just saying that all other sports besides football have a lot more leeway with enrollment differences.

[chaingang]

And then of course if we used the same Districts and divisions in baseball. We win the SC this year in D2. lol

[LHPfactory]

5A should split, especially due to the huge number differences. A good local example, Leander ISD (Cedar Park, Leander, Vandagrift, Vista Ridge) are all at the very top of 5A with around 2000 kids in each. Leander is building Its 6th High School now which will pull Rouse back to 5A.

Leander schools do have good programs thats why they win, you can be big and lousy and a small juggernaut. But the reality is if you are a Great program with 2100 kids playing a good program with 1100 kids, it will be tough for the 1100 enrollment school to have a shot in any of the sports.

However, when you are as good as the Leander schools and have twice the talent pool, Schools like Marble Falls will never compete and Marble Falls had the best team they have probably ever had last fall, about 50 less students they would have been in 4A-DI. That Leander District that also has Georgetown and Georgetown East View is probably the toughest 5A in the state, it should be, its loaded the biggest 5A schools in the state that happen to have good programs. Which makes my point, they all need to be competing for the 5A-DI trophy, not half going DI and half going DII.

[PurplePop]

Split divisions for 4A is bad idea. District has become very uninspiring for a lot of competitive D-II schools. Our school, Navarro, played one competitive district game last year. It was a let down from prior years when we had exciting games against and usually beat the bigger schools in our district. In prior years, despite not playing the bigger schools in the playoffs, at least we kind of knew how we measured up against them from playing them in district.

[OldBison75]

Split divisions for 4A is bad idea. District has become very uninspiring for a lot of competitive D-II schools. Our school, Navarro, played one competitive district game last year. It was a let down from prior years when we had exciting games against and usually beat the bigger schools in our district. In prior years, despite not playing the bigger schools in the playoffs, at least we kind of knew how we measured up against them from playing them in district.

This is a problem in both divisions. Look at the district Navasota was placed in. We went through district without even a hint of challenge. We played everybody on the bench every game and most played at least two quarters in every game. It was great for developing players in game situations, but, it was not at all exciting to watch. It will make us better this year for having lots of kids with alot of experience to fill holes left by graduation, but, there is also the issue of over confidence because the competition level is what it is.

[chaingang]

This is a problem in both divisions. Look at the district Navasota was placed in. We went through district without even a hint of challenge. We played everybody on the bench every game and most played at least two quarters in every game. It was great for developing players in game situations, but, it was not at all exciting to watch. It will make us better this year for having lots of kids with alot of experience to fill holes left by graduation, but, there is also the issue of over confidence because the competition level is what it is.

Yeah, look at poor old LaMarque. They almost need to schedule college teams in pre district just to counteract the competition in district. I honestly think that is what happened they drew us in the 3rd(I think) round last year. It was like deer in headlights. Oh crap, we haven't played a team like this in months.

[cougartino]

Yeah, look at poor old LaMarque. They almost need to schedule college teams in pre district just to counteract the competition in district. I honestly think that is what happened they drew us in the 3rd(I think) round last year. It was like deer in headlights. Oh crap, we haven't played a team like this in months.

Gotta correct this one. Our former Houston ISD head coach was a deer in headlights. He's never coached well in big games against talented teams. Case in point. In 2011 we had a larger enrollment Manvel on the ropes. Their DB's were unable to keep up with our speed. We were killing them. Then Dr. Detroit decided to run. That was all she wrote. Even Manvel's coach said he was glad we stopped throwing because they had no answer for it. Even last year we all knew that Wing T was not going to be the end all. But because he refused to develop a decent passing game once teams stopped our running game we were dead ducks. We had one of the biggest and most athletic tight ends in the state but was totally misused. I'm not expecting anything differently in 2016. Might be one and done.

[Leopard4Life]

First game of the year after a large senior class had graduated. Young players and a qb that had never started a varsity game.....still won. Not talking specifics, just generalities to get the point across. And in all sports, not just football. Argyle regularly defeats 5A and 6A basketball teams that are darn good. In baseball, Argyle didn't play a single game in predistrict with a lower classification or any 4A classification....just larger ones.....just to affirm the facts. What happened??? They defeated Pleasant Grove and went on to win the State Championship.....didn't lose a single game in the playoffs. Sometimes the kool-aid tastes pretty darn refreshing compared to sour Gatorade.

That's basketball where most teams only play 7 maybe 8 kids. In football you play up to 30 or more (depending on the score). It was also the first game for Denison... They didn't even sniff the playoffs, but in there defense they had multiple close loses. They were an average to below average 5A team an on the low end of 5A enrollment.

I agree with the analogy about other sports being easier to compete in compared to football. 7 on 7 is a great example. The right Division 2 team could beat any Division 1 team. It's when more athletes and team depth are required that the smaller schools struggle. Sure a smaller school can pull out a win, but they are harder to come by and don't come as often...

[chaingang]

Gotta correct this one. Our former Houston ISD head coach was a deer in headlights. He's never coached well in big games against talented teams. Case in point. In 2011 we had a larger enrollment Manvel on the ropes. Their DB's were unable to keep up with our speed. We were killing them. Then Dr. Detroit decided to run. That was all she wrote. Even Manvel's coach said he was glad we stopped throwing because they had no answer for it. Even last year we all knew that Wing T was not going to be the end all. But because he refused to develop a decent passing game once teams stopped our running game we were dead ducks. We had one of the biggest and most athletic tight ends in the state but was totally misused. I'm not expecting anything differently in 2016. Might be one and done.

Thats terrible with all the talent yall have. Lets faced it, you are STILL LaMArque. Do be honest, yall surprised the heck out of me even in pre-game. Alot different from the two LaMarque teams I faced and lost to.

[Weebe]

The split division is ridiculous in all classification in which it is used.

The effect has been creating 8 separate classifications in 1a-4a.

Besides, demographics are just as important, if not more so, than numbers. But it's not PC to consider that.

[cougartino]

Thats terrible with all the talent yall have. Lets faced it, you are STILL LaMArque. Do be honest, yall surprised the heck out of me even in pre-game. Alot different from the two LaMarque teams I faced and lost to.

This dude doesn't have a clue about LM football. His philosophy is "chopping wood" like they do in Houston ISD. Just stay close and win 14-13, 20-19 games. No way we should have struggled against the 4th place team in week 1 of the playoffs. In 2012, Coldspring told us they were going to introduce us to 3A. They came down to our place and made us lay down. Barbay said he relishes beating Jackson. Unheard of for LM! And if you think I'm exaggerating, go to www.lamarquefootball.com and read what's written after than 34-0 drubbing and arse whipping in the playoffs. Then ask yourself is that the standard of LM football. Only in Houston ISD where they are just happy to be in the playoffs does that shiggidy thrive. He's lost his last 2 OC's out of frustration and our DC left and went up the road with about 10 LM players to Dickinson who made the regionals in 6A. He's already lost 6 coaches since the end of school. And we may not even have enough to field a JV team because many kids just don't want to play for him. Damn shame what he's done to this program!

[chaingang]

This dude doesn't have a clue about LM football. His philosophy is "chopping wood" like they do in Houston ISD. Just stay close and win 14-13, 20-19 games. No way we should have struggled against the 4th place team in week 1 of the playoffs. In 2012, Coldspring told us they were going to introduce us to 3A. They came down to our place and made us lay down. Barbay said he relishes beating Jackson. Unheard of for LM! And if you think I'm exaggerating, go to www.lamarquefootball.com and read what's written after than 34-0 drubbing and arse whipping in the playoffs. Then ask yourself is that the standard of LM football. Only in Houston ISD where they are just happy to be in the playoffs does that shiggidy thrive. He's lost his last 2 OC's out of frustration and our DC left and went up the road with about 10 LM players to Dickinson who made the regionals in 6A. He's already lost 6 coaches since the end of school. And we may not even have enough to field a JV team because many kids just don't want to play for him. Damn shame what he's done to this program!

So how does the future look for the Coogs? Will they let yall stay open? Texas HS football will not be the same without that 5 stared yellow cougar paw( Or is it 6 now?). Yes, I was very happy we won, but what you are telling me explains what i saw. Even though we have had some battles over the years, WOS has ALWAYS respected LaMarque. We always knew it was going to be a knock down drag out.

[cougartino]

So how does the future look for the Coogs? Will they let yall stay open? Texas HS football will not be the same without that 5 stared yellow cougar paw( Or is it 6 now?). Yes, I was very happy we won, but what you are telling me explains what i saw. Even though we have had some battles over the years, WOS has ALWAYS respected LaMarque. We always knew it was going to be a knock down drag out.

Thank you! Assuming we still have a program, until he's gone and a coach who's use to coaching talent across the board, not much will change. He's basically transformed us into what I call BUF (black urban football). We may look like Yates, Worthing, Madison, and the like, but we are and have always been a surbuban/rural program. Coming from Houston ISD, I don't think he ever understood that. To him, 11-2 was a good year. Not for us!

By the way, for anyone who thinks by BUF characterization is discriminatory or racist, I'm black and graduated from HISD's Sterling. I know what Houston urban football looks like. It does well against itself. But as soon as it steps outside of HISD, Lamar being the exception, it's noticeable it can't compete with other districts. Case in point. In 2013, we had little trouble with Sweeney and West Columbia. But in the playoffs, they killed Worthing and Yates. Unlike the rural schools, they don't spend off seasons together. In most cases, they don't pick up a football until spring practice or right before summer camp.

[cougartino]

By the way, the way QB at Dickinson, 7 miles north of La Marque, lives half a mile from LMHS. His grandmother refused to allow him to play for Jackson. And since Dickinson has open enrollment, the better talent has migrated.

[AggiesAreWe]

You have to think some of the players leaving has to do with situation with TEA and not just the coach.

[cougartino]

You have to think some of the players leaving has to do with situation with TEA and not just the coach.

I wish that were the case. But LM has been having performance issues for years. I think the board and super have run out of tricks to curb the tide. We've been losing kids to Galveston, TC, Clear Springs, and Dickinson since 2011. The kid who was supposed to be QB as a junior and senior in 12 & 13 transferred to Galveston. In 2013, we had no passing game whatsoever. And suffered. The sad thing is, there was another well known coach we should have hired. We errored in letting him go. I was on the search committee and have no problem confessing it.

[chaingang]

By the way, the way QB at Dickinson, 7 miles north of La Marque, lives half a mile from LMHS. His grandmother refused to allow him to play for Jackson. And since Dickinson has open enrollment, the better talent has migrated.

I knew Dikinson was close, but didnt realize that close. And I see your point with them having open enrollment hurting LaMarque. First show of adversity or not liking the coaching style and poof, they are gone. Maybe something will happen in the near future that will start bringing the Coogs back to what they used to be. I have a feeling we will meet up again this year. Well, hopefully WOS will be there. We have some holes to fill thats for sure. Good news is we have our QB coming back. That kid is just a winner. Easy to re load around a player like that.