Turnovers 101..the real story

[Caprocker]

They're caused.. Not granted by the grace of the football gods. You guys need to come to grips with this. "We left 21 on the field last night in turnovers", "we gave them 14 on turnovers" , "We have got to handle the ball better to beat a team like that"...all are the type of comments that a person in the stands on the losing side uses to justify getting hit in the mouth,stripped,punched or pressured into throwing a bad pass. I'm tired of the busch league excuses on here..seldom ever does a football player ever throw the ball out on the ground on accident..c'mon guys ready break lets get legit on the downlow!:helpme: my first icon post btw

[db8coach]

And the ball is oblong so it bounces funny as well....

[OLE'BULL]

They're caused.. Not granted by the grace of the football gods. You guys need to come to grips with this. "We left 21 on the field last night in turnovers", "we gave them 14 on turnovers" , "We have got to handle the ball better to beat a team like that"...all are the type of comments that a person in the stands on the losing side uses to justify getting hit in the mouth,stripped,punched or pressured into throwing a bad pass. I'm tired of the busch league excuses on here..seldom ever does a football player ever throw the ball out on the ground on accident..c'mon guys ready break lets get legit on the downlow!:helpme: my first icon post btw

THANKYOU. I got in an argument on this board last year or the year before, cant remember, about this. Bellville at the time was CAUSING alot of turnovers and all I heard was "If we didn't throw that pick in the redzone", "we were going to score but fumbled" blah blah blah. My linebacker coach in college dedicated a short 5 minute period to creating AND recovering turnovers EVERY SINGLE DAY before practice. You have to be able to get the ball once it is in the air or bouncing around on the field, that can be the hardest part. There is a reason they say good defenses CREATE turnovers. Make no mistake about it, they are CREATED....

[BB BULLS]

so both of you are telling me that you have never seen a guy running free down the field with no one around him and he drops the ball. you see at every level. no not all the time, but it has happened.

[Caprocker]

amen and just trying to talk sensibly..like real football stuff..ya know the unbiased kind.

[Caprocker]

so both of you are telling me that you have never seen a guy running free down the field with no one around him and he drops the ball. you see at every level. no not all the time, but it has happened.

no..i cant remember seeing that..i did see a qb trip over his shoe one time but he held onto the ball..ive seen a few games..

[panfan]

THANKYOU. I got in an argument on this board last year or the year before, cant remember, about this. Bellville at the time was CAUSING alot of turnovers and all I heard was "If we didn't throw that pick in the redzone", "we were going to score but fumbled" blah blah blah. My linebacker coach in college dedicated a short 5 minute period to creating AND recovering turnovers EVERY SINGLE DAY before practice. You have to be able to get the ball once it is in the air or bouncing around on the field, that can be the hardest part. There is a reason they say good defenses CREATE turnovers. Make no mistake about it, they are CREATED....

Agree most fumbles are created or caused by solid defense, but there are plenty that are created or caused through no action of the defense such as poor center/QB exchange, poor QB/running back exchange....

[toddg]

the cherry and apple turnovers at Arby's are greatness!!!!

[Caprocker]

Agree most fumbles are created or caused by solid defense, but there are plenty that are created or caused through no action of the defense such as poor center/QB exchange, poor QB/running back exchange....

all of which seldom ever happen in practice but seem to magically appear when an agressive nose guard or agressive defense is in front of a 17 year old kid..coincidence? i think not

[defense51]

no..i cant remember seeing that..i did see a qb trip over his shoe one time but he held onto the ball..ive seen a few games..
Example 1.
I've seen more than once where the QB was not under pressure, the ball was simply thrown too high, and happened to go right to a DB ten yards behind the receiver. Turnover unforced...

Exaple 2.
QB and RB fumble the exchange on the hand off with no defensive player close. Turnover unforced...

That being said, I agree MOST turnovers are forced in some fashion, but not ALL are by any means!

[OLE'BULL]

Agree most fumbles are created or caused by solid defense, but there are plenty that are created or caused through no action of the defense such as poor center/QB exchange, poor QB/running back exchange....

Someone has to be there to fall on it. If they were getting blocked by the O-line, then that would be hard to do.

[OLE'BULL]

Example 1.
I've seen more than once where the QB was not under pressure, the ball was simply thrown too high, and happened to go right to a DB ten yards behind the receiver. Turnover unforced...

Exaple 2.
QB and RB fumble the exchange on the hand off with no defensive player close. Turnover unforced...

That being said, I agree MOST turnovers are forced in some fashion, but not ALL are by any means!

Created, not forced. The DB was playing "over the top". One man underneath, one over the top. That is one of the reasons they cover that way. Again, on a fumbled exchange, a defensive player has to be close to pick it up.

[Rabid Cougar]

Two Friday nights ago. Kid was taking a kick off back all the way. Not a soul around him and the ball comes flying out. Squirted right out. Other team jumps on it.

3A SC game in 2007 China Spring vs Celina. CS marching for the tieing score when a pass bounces off CS's WR Mike Hike's facemask and is caught by the Celina safety that was 10 yards away from him.

I'd hazard to guess as many as 1/4 of all turnovers are unforced.

[toddg]

forced turnovers are when iv had one too many roast beefs with Arby sauce...

[defense51]

Created, not forced. The DB was playing "over the top". One man underneath, one over the top. That is one of the reasons they cover that way. Again, on a fumbled exchange, a defensive player has to be close to pick it up.

Simply having a defensive player in the vicinity does not "create" a turnover. If the defense does not by their actions cause the turnover, then in my opinion it is not created or forced, just simply coincidence.

[defense51]

forced turnovers are when iv had one too many roast beefs with Arby sauce...
: Thanks Todd, now that picture is stuck in my head! :ack!:

[OLE'BULL]

Two Friday nights ago. Kid was taking a kick off back all the way. Not a soul around him and the ball comes flying out. Squirted right out. Other team jumps on it.

3A SC game in 2007 China Spring vs Celina. CS marching for the tieing score when a pass bounces off CS's WR Mike Hike's facemask and is caught by the Celina safety that was 10 yards away from him.

I'd hazard to guess as many as 1/4 of all turnovers are unforced.

A defensive player was around the football otherwise it wouldn't have been a turnover.

[Caprocker]

A defensive player was around the football otherwise it wouldn't have been a turnover.

i'm glad i started this because its a good conversation that needed to be had..but really lets not split hairs..everyone has seen the anomaly fumble where a kid gets butterfingers..its rare. i'm talking about a 3 fumble, 3 pick night that gets the,"we left 42 points on the field because of turnovers" comment.. we should really have this talk on the downlow more often..the real football talk kind.

[Aguilafanatico]

They're caused.. Not granted by the grace of the football gods. You guys need to come to grips with this. "We left 21 on the field last night in turnovers", "we gave them 14 on turnovers" , "We have got to handle the ball better to beat a team like that"...all are the type of comments that a person in the stands on the losing side uses to justify getting hit in the mouth,stripped,punched or pressured into throwing a bad pass. I'm tired of the busch league excuses on here..seldom ever does a football player ever throw the ball out on the ground on accident..c'mon guys ready break lets get legit on the downlow!:helpme: my first icon post btw

A voice of reason on the downlow!!! Great post Caprocker. Agree 100%.

[toddg]

A defensive player was around the football otherwise it wouldn't have been a turnover.

its all in the dough! and fresh fruit of course...just a tad icing does the trick! a good turnover is fluffy and flakey

a turnover is a turnover..usually the result of bad execution, or lack of focus..or a slick ball..or just plain bad luck..and the result of a good defensive play..its sometimes a momentum changer, a game changer..or simply an undisciplined team..bottom line..TAKE CARE OF THE BALL

[hollywood]

Turnovers are not all forced or created. Good grief. A tunrover is a turnover I agree with that. Whether the offense or kickoff/punt return team made a mistake by "not taking care of the ball" or the defense or kickoff/punt team forced or created it/them. I don't usually use turnovers as an excuse, but when I do, I drink Dos XX.

[panfan]

Turnovers are not all forced or created. Good grief. A tunrover is a turnover I agree with that. Whether the offense or kickoff/punt return team made a mistake by "not taking care of the ball" or the defense or kickoff/punt team forced or created it/them. I don't usually use turnovers as an excuse, but when I do, I drink Dos XX.

NICE! :2thumbsup

[panfan]

Someone has to be there to fall on it. If they were getting blocked by the O-line, then that would be hard to do.
I said fumbles, not turnovers. The word turnover inherently implies that the ball is being turned over. A fumble simply means it is put on the ground. Not being a smart a$$ just pointing out there is a difference.

[BwdLion73]

Turnovers are only forced when its us getting one from the other team.;)

[pancho villa]

when team A plays good Def. team B tends to turn the ball over more often. Forced or unforced.

[Caprocker]

when team A plays good Def. team B tends to turn the ball over more often. Forced or unforced.

thank you..

[toddg]

i turned over a rock..and there was sneaky snake!! and danged if he didnt drink all of our root beer!!

[ronwx5x]

i turned over a rock..and there was sneaky snake!! and danged if he didnt drink all of our root beer!!Now you're showing your age and Tom T Hall would be proud!!

[buckeyebob]

they can be sweet...last Saturday nigh, Buckeyes & Carthage @ Lobo Stadium, KYKX Game of the Week...at the end of the first quarter, Bux have 'em down 27-0...Bux had one offensive play & 23 seconds total possession time...I'm gonna get stoned for telling this.

[bansheefan03]

Not all fumbles/turnovers are caused anyone that's watched any amount of football knows this. Just an example qb pump fakes and drops ball is that forced?

[bansheefan03]

And if u were at the game you can agree that not everyone was forced the one that the receiver dropped the catch after taking a step or two was not forced not even really sure it should of been a fumble hard to see if he really had complete possession before he dropped it

[Caprocker]

U guys..when a receiver drops a ball it's not a turnover. It's incomplete.. As for the qb slippage etc. I said, there are those anomaly turnovers that happen EVERY NOW AND THEN. For the most part, not splitting hairs, most turnovers are caused by physical play and poor decision making.

[LV_Bearfan]

I disagree with OP. I do however think they say something about the overall quality of the team (great teams don't make many unforced mistakes) so they aren't much of an excuse. They are definitely not all forced, and they defintely can impact the result. The unforced ones are mistakes. If your team makes a lot of mistakes, it isn't very good; therefore it may lose games. Simply stating that your team makes mistakes is not an excuse but rather a statement of reality.

For example:

1. Kickoff returner attempts to field kickoff five yards deep in the end zone with no one near him and has the ball bounce off his shoulder pads ten yards forward into the field of play.

2. Center repeatedly makes poor shotgun snaps to the QB that result in him falling on the ball for a 10 yard loss or worse. I understand there's an argument to be made here, but what if it happens consistently regardless of opponent?

3. Center and QB just can't get the exchange right and keep fumbling before there is even defensive pressure. Same arguments I'm sure.

[LV_Bearfan]

I do understand the sentiment though. When your team plays great D and causes another to fumble, it's pretty chicken for the other team to use that as an excuse later.

[icu812]

Last Friday night I saw a punt returner drop 3 in row with no defender within 5-10 yards of him (2 were recovered by the kicking team). He didn't get a chance to field the 4th lol. He just wasn't having a good night I guess. Those were not forced or caused turnovers. Those are self inflicted mistakes that can cost teams games in which they otherwise outplayed their opponents. I agree that good teams usually don't make those kinds of mistakes, but sometimes it happens. In fact I haven't seen them do that in years. That is not an excuse for losing, if you make those kind of mistakes and it costs you the game you didn't deserve to win that night. Fortunately we still won by 30+............but it could have been 40+ :)

Having said that, if we didn't fumble, if the center didn't snap the ball over his head, if we didn't drop that wide open pass, if the guy running towards the end zone all by himself didn't fall down, etc... are not popular excuses with the winning team because most folks don't want to win that way.

[coachc45]

2005 1st round of Playoffs. Lennon Creer, from Tatum, twice broke long runs and would've scored had he not just dropped the ball. Both times no one was within 5 yards of him. Made the game close. They won 14-13. They did get it corrected and went on to beat Hutto for the State Title.

So unforced fumbles do happen.

[Tejastrue]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6bnOBLvQIY

[Saggy Aggie]

Eh, there are loads of turnovers that are merely lucky plays by the defense.

I think when most people say those types of things, they're basically just saying dont count on getting lucky again.

Lots of turnovers are forced by the defense but plenty are gift wrapped and handed to them as well (i.e. muffed punt, dropped sideways passes (which may end up being a lateral), botched handoffs or tosses, snaps over qbs head or in the ground, tipped pass at the line or by own receiver for an int, receiver slips and falls down coming out of his break causing an int, crappy throws and just being in the right place at the right time for an int, etc).

Point is, not every turnover is a defensive forced turnover. People just intend to say that a certain team killed themselves with unforced turnovers and dont count on it happening every time. I dont think anyone would say dont count on getting those turnovers that are just great plays by the defense...

[Caprocker]

wow...i had no idea there we so many gift turnovers out there...i dont get to see many games.. my ticket taking position doesn't allow me to get in on the action much but after halftime i try to get where i can see.. i guess that most of the gimees happen in the first half or out in centex or metromess.. thank you guys for setting me straight on this issue.. i guess i was wrong about defense causing the majority of turnovers..ive been put in my place...sorry for starting an untrue thread.. :)

[pancho villa]

wow...i had no idea there we so many gift turnovers out there...i dont get to see many games.. my ticket taking position doesn't allow me to get in on the action much but after halftime i try to get where i can see.. i guess that most of the gimees happen in the first half or out in centex or metromess.. thank you guys for setting me straight on this issue.. i guess i was wrong about defense causing the majority of turnovers..ive been put in my place...sorry for starting an untrue thread.. :)

You are on the right side of the fence here. NA's don't understand what football is like.

[panfan]

wow...i had no idea there we so many gift turnovers out there...i dont get to see many games.. my ticket taking position doesn't allow me to get in on the action much but after halftime i try to get where i can see.. i guess that most of the gimees happen in the first half or out in centex or metromess.. thank you guys for setting me straight on this issue.. i guess i was wrong about defense causing the majority of turnovers..ive been put in my place...sorry for starting an untrue thread.. :)

or maybe under the caprock. I hear those are kinda hard to move, so I could see how you might not get out much.

[Caprocker]

or maybe under the caprock. I hear those are kinda hard to move, so I could see how you might not get out much.

yeah ya know man sorry

[Caprocker]

You are on the right side of the fence here. NA's don't understand what football is like.

LOL please define NA pancho

[Deuce]

In the end does it really matter? A turnover is a turnover in the stat line! I think the issue is fans wanting credit for their team for causing them.

[Rabid Cougar]

I disagree with "great teams don't make many unforced mistakes". NCAA. Alabama and Florida State tied for No. 103 out of 125 in the country in turnover margin, as in they have lost more than they have gained. l They don't classify them as forced or unforced. They do track Fumble/ Fumbles Lost.

http://stats.ncaa.org/rankings?sport_code=MFB&division=11

[hollywood]

In the end does it really matter? A turnover is a turnover in the stat line! I think the issue*is*fans wanting credit for their team for causing them.

:2thumbsup

[Caprocker]

In the end does it really matter? A turnover is a turnover in the stat line! I think the issue is fans wanting credit for their team for causing them.

i think what youre saying is,"fans using them as a reason their team lost"?? im confused.

[Deuce]

i think what youre saying is,"fans using them as a reason their team lost"?? im confused.

No. What I said is that there are a lot of fans that get butt hurt if their team wins and fans of the opposing team don't give their team credit for causing the turnovers. Yes, there are people that use turnovers as an excuse for losing, and its usually a pretty valid argument. Generally when you lose the turnover battle you are going to lose the game. If they are forced or unforced really has no relevance. A turnover is a turnover!

[Sweetwater Red]

2005 1st round of Playoffs. Lennon Creer, from Tatum, twice broke long runs and would've scored had he not just dropped the ball. Both times no one was within 5 yards of him. Made the game close. They won 14-13. They did get it corrected and went on to beat Hutto for the State Title.

So unforced fumbles do happen.

2005 5th round of the playoffs. Sweetwater fumbled the ball three times inside Tatum's 25 in the first half. The Mustangs still led
13-12 but it could've been atleast 27-12. I remember two of those three turnovers vividly. The third was a fumble in a pile and
I didn't see it clearly.

The first was "forced" but that is because our QB at the time ran while carrying the ball like it was a dirty diaper and that was
never coached out of him. He started up field and the Tatum defender simply slapped the ball out of his hand. The honestly
looked more like one you'd see Gary Payton make on an NBA court.

The second, and this one still bugs me, was because of our OC's insistence to run the fastest kid in the state who weighed
roughly 150 and was maybe 5'7" between the tackles when we had a very capable FB and oh yeah Joseph Banyard who is
currently playing for the Vikings. Nothing good ever came out of it. He'd either get tackled for a loss, stopped at the line or fumble.
We'll they tried it against Tatum and he fumbles it as soon as he is hit. Tatum recovers.

My point is yes both turnovers were forced but I believe both could have been prevented and that fell on the Sweetwater staff.

[Ville-D]

No. What I said is that there are a lot of fans that get butt hurt if their team wins and fans of the opposing team don't give their team credit for causing the turnovers. Yes, there are people that use turnovers as an excuse for losing, and its usually a pretty valid argument. Generally when you lose the turnover battle you are going to lose the game. If they are forced or unforced really has no relevance. A turnover is a turnover!

Caprocker = butthurt

[Rabid Cougar]

This is a fumble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLpJ7VIfKPU

This is a stupid fumble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUYVifM0vCQ

[Bullaholic]

Other part of this discussion is this---Why does the recovering team seem to score a high % of the times after a change of poss ? Is the recovering team just pumped up more and plays harder? Seems like mental edge and toughness is as important as physical play---especially among young high school athletes.

[Rabid Cougar]

Other part of this discussion is this---Why does the recovering team seem to score a high % of the times after a change of poss ? Is the recovering team just pumped up more and plays harder? Seems like mental edge and toughness is as important as physical play---especially among young high school athletes.

Sudden Change..... Offensive coaches will usually go for the jugular immediately afterwards and defense is still trying to figure what the hell just happened.

[pancho villa]

LOL please define NA pancho

A baseball player or a band kid= NA

[coach]

This might be the stupidest thread in downlow history, and thats saying something.

[Caprocker]

Caprocker = butthurt

4-0..... i'm good

[Caprocker]

A baseball player or a band kid= NA

yes! thank you... or possibly a daddy that sees the game through a tunnel from the stands?

[Caprocker]

This might be the stupidest thread in downlow history, and thats saying something.
my pleasure coacher

[pancho villa]

yes! thank you... or possibly a daddy that sees the game through a tunnel from the stands?

Somene really got under your skin there chief.

[Caprocker]

Somene really got under your skin there chief.

no not really..just stirrin the pot lol..truth be known my tenure on the downlow is coming to an end soon and i will go back to lurking the threads with an occasional jab here and there..stick and move mode soon.

[BB BULLS]

this what i know about turnovers if team A has the ball and team B gets the ball from them BINGO turnover no matter how you look at it

[Phantom Stang]

yes! thank you... or possibly a daddy that sees the game through a tunnel from the stands?

Being a daddy myself, it's hard to NOT watch a game through a tunnel whenever your kid is on the field, or onstage in a play or band concert for that matter.

That being said, I agree that most turnovers in football are either directly, or indirectly caused by the defense.

[Ville-D]

4-0..... i'm good

Y'all have a soccer program out there?

[Ville-D]

This might be the stupidest thread in downlow history, and thats saying something.

... +1

[Ville-D]

Somene really got under your skin there chief.

Quick Draw Caprocker walks around half cocked all day.