Pete Rose and the MLB Hall of Fame

[defense51]

Should Pete Rose be inducted into the MLB Hall of Fame? I personally think he should, what are your thoughts and reasons why or why not?

[Tejastrue]

Absolutely. Alcoholics, drug abusers, and adulterers have been voted into the HOF. Gambling is no different...just another form of addiction.

[defense51]

Does his gambling overshadow his accomplishments on the field?

Major League records:
Most career hits - 4,256
Most career outs - 10,328
Most career games played – 3,562
Most career at bats – 14,053
Most career singles - 3,215
Most career runs by a switch hitter – 2,165
Most career doubles by a switch hitter - 746
Most career walks by a switch hitter – 1,566
Most career total bases by a switch hitter - 5,752
Most seasons of 200 or more hits – 10 (shared)
Most consecutive seasons of 100 or more hits – 23
Most consecutive seasons with 600 or more at bats - 13 (1968–1980)
Most seasons with 600 at bats - 17
Most seasons with 150 or more games played – 17
Most seasons with 100 or more games played - 23
Record for playing in the most winning games - 1,972
Only player in major league history to play more than 500 games at five different positions – 1B (939), LF (671), 3B (634), 2B (628), RF (595)

National League records:
Most years played – 24
Most consecutive years played – 24
Most career runs – 2,165
Most career doubles - 746
Most career games with 5 or more hits – 10
Modern (post-1900) NL record for longest consecutive-game hitting streak NL - 44
Modern record for most consecutive hitting streaks of 20 or more games – 7

Per: mlb.com & wikipedia.com

[cougartino]

No doubt there are some dudes in the HOF with questionable character. Rose was an ambassador of the game but bet on baseball games, particularly ones he managed, then lied about it. I believe that had he come clean from the get go, asked for forgiveness, and showed some contrition, he'd be in. But ultimately, we waited too late, and even that appeared to coincide with a book he was peddling. I think the only way he gets in now is for the current generation of HOF voters to die off and a new breed gives him another look. Rose may not be alive when that occurs but that's part of the hole he dug himself into.

[rb585]

Absolutely. Alcoholics, drug abusers, and adulterers have been voted into the HOF. Gambling is no different...just another form of addiction.

It's completely different -- it's the one thing bannable by life by MLB, because it's the ultimate crime against competition. The rule is there because it nearly ruined MLB 100 years ago, and then it nearly ruined college basketball in the 1950's.

[Rabid Cougar]

Gambling on horses and at the casino is one thing. Gambling on the GAME is another. No.

[cougartino]

Gambling on horses and at the casino is one thing. Gambling on the GAME is another. No.
:iagree:

[caleb_mccaig]

Personally I think he shouldn't be let in. Who knows all the details about what games he actually bet on, regardless of what he has to say about it.

Also, I think if you let someone in who tainted the game by gambling then you also have to let the people in who tainted it by cheating, like Barry, Mark and Sammy.

[Tejastrue]

It's completely different -- it's the one thing bannable by life by MLB, because it's the ultimate crime against competition. The rule is there because it nearly ruined MLB 100 years ago, and then it nearly ruined college basketball in the 1950's.

Considering his status in baseball as one of the best players of all time, I'm sure he felt above the rules of the game not unlike superstars of today or years past. From my understanding there is nothing out there that says he bet on his own team or ever bet while 'playing' the game. He never cheated, played to the fullest each and every day but had an imperfection...greed.

Put an asterisk by his name if you want...but put him in.

I laugh at the irony in all this with oddsmakers and bookies from Vegas being a part of the discussion for game results and predicting winners. More so now than ever, gambling in professional sports has been sublimely promoted throughout the leagues.

[Farmersfan]

Does his gambling overshadow his accomplishments on the field?

Major League records:
Most career hits - 4,256
Most career outs - 10,328
Most career games played – 3,562
Most career at bats – 14,053
Most career singles - 3,215
Most career runs by a switch hitter – 2,165
Most career doubles by a switch hitter - 746
Most career walks by a switch hitter – 1,566
Most career total bases by a switch hitter - 5,752
Most seasons of 200 or more hits – 10 (shared)
Most consecutive seasons of 100 or more hits – 23
Most consecutive seasons with 600 or more at bats - 13 (1968–1980)
Most seasons with 600 at bats - 17
Most seasons with 150 or more games played – 17
Most seasons with 100 or more games played - 23
Record for playing in the most winning games - 1,972
Only player in major league history to play more than 500 games at five different positions – 1B (939), LF (671), 3B (634), 2B (628), RF (595)

National League records:
Most years played – 24
Most consecutive years played – 24
Most career runs – 2,165
Most career doubles - 746
Most career games with 5 or more hits – 10
Modern (post-1900) NL record for longest consecutive-game hitting streak NL - 44
Modern record for most consecutive hitting streaks of 20 or more games – 7

Per: mlb.com & wikipedia.com


How many of his stats are simply the result of playing 25 years? How many other players would generate better stats if they played 25 years? And does his ability to be productive that many years earn him a HOF spot? All good questions...............

[Tejastrue]

Trying to be comparable HOF Hank Aaron (23 yrs) comes to mind yet Rose (24 yrs) collected almost 500 more hits. Career BA was almost identical. .305 to .303. Rose did have almost 2000 more ABs.

HRs, well we know that one.

[defense51]

Considering his status in baseball as one of the best players of all time, I'm sure he felt above the rules of the game not unlike superstars of today or years past. From my understanding there is nothing out there that says he bet on his own team or ever bet while 'playing' the game. He never cheated, played to the fullest each and every day but had an imperfection...greed.

Put an asterisk by his name if you want...but put him in.

I laugh at the irony in all this with oddsmakers and bookies from Vegas being a part of the discussion for game results and predicting winners. More so now than ever, gambling in professional sports has been sublimely promoted throughout the leagues.

Obviously I don't know him personally, but from what I've read and from watching him when I was young, he was an extremely agressive competitor. I think he thought the Reds could and would win in every game he was involved in, so he bet on the Reds. I haven't seen any supporting evidence that he bet against them or tried to influence a loss, I don't think his ego would allow him to bet against himself. His stats are MLB Hall of Fame worthy, and the way he played the game is worthy. Considering the way MLB commissioners have removed bans before on drug use (ie. Steve Howe -7 suspensions), Ferguson Jenkins, and other bans such as George Steinbrenner, Willie Mays, and Mickey Mantle. It's time to put Charlie Hustle in the Hall of Fame.

[coach]

Trying to be comparable HOF Hank Aaron (23 yrs) comes to mind yet Rose (24 yrs) collected almost 500 more hits. Career BA was almost identical. .305 to .303. Rose did have almost 2000 more ABs.

HRs, well we know that one.

Having the same avg. with more abs is more impressive

[bobcat1]

Yes he should be without question. What he did had no effect on the game or baseball in general. Charlie Hustle gave it his all as a player.

[Tejastrue]

There is no evidence of what Rose did was anything comparable to the Black Sox scandal of 1919.


Good article on this...

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/blacksox/blacksoxaccount.html

[Tejastrue]

Having the same avg. with more abs is more impressive

I think so too.

[YTBulldogs]

He's more than paid his price for his wrong doing.

[speedbump]

Considering his status in baseball as one of the best players of all time, I'm sure he felt above the rules of the game not unlike superstars of today or years past. From my understanding there is nothing out there that says he bet on his own team or ever bet while 'playing' the game. He never cheated, played to the fullest each and every day but had an imperfection...greed.

Put an asterisk by his name if you want...but put him in.

I laugh at the irony in all this with oddsmakers and bookies from Vegas being a part of the discussion for game results and predicting winners. More so now than ever, gambling in professional sports has been sublimely promoted throughout the leagues.

Rose admitted that he bet on several Reds games while he was their manager. He was a great player but the HOF is not about numbers only. If it was only about the game on the field it would be called the All time all star team. It's more than that.

[Tejastrue]

I understand what you are saying that it is more than just about the numbers. It is no secret that Rose bet on some games. As stated earlier and I agree, he has paid the price. To me he was the epitome of a major league baseball player. He has and probably still to this day deals with the demons of gambling but no way, at least in my mind, did he tarnish the integrity of the game.

defense51 mentioned some examples of the double standards and the hypocrisy of being voted in or out. Another is Gaylord Perry who openly admitted cheating, even while he was still pitching. He was suspended, but is in the HOF. How can you post his numbers in Cooperstown?

[Roughneck93]

Charlie Hustle....:cheerl:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/20131212/4922091/pete-rose-home-plate-collision-gif-o.gif

[Old Dog]

Cobb was a thug

[jason]

I was in Cooperstown last summer on induction weekend and got to talk to several sports writers who get votes and most said he will get in after he dies.

[Tejastrue]

Seems a tad morbid....

[jacket98,99]

So here is my question.....Are ALL Hall of Famers judged by their morals, or just a select few? The gambling done by Pete Rose didn't give him an unfair advantage. It didn't help him achieve his amazing numbers. Hall of Fame selection in every major league sport has its flaws and issues, but in my opinion MLB is the absolute worst! If what Pete did was so bad that he shouldn't get in then why not do the complete opposite and find some scrub player with a .150 lifetime batting average that also happens to be the nicest, most generous, friendliest, ect. and put him in the hall. Its the same thing. GAMBLING DID NOT MAKE HIM A GREAT BASEBALL PLAYER. So anyone who says, "If Pete gets in then you have to let Barry, Sammy, etc in is completely missing the point. What the guys in the steroid era did had a direct effect on playing performance so therefore their numbers are flawed. Pete Rose the man may have flaws (dont we all), but Pete Rose the ball player is a Hall of Famer.

[ronwx5x]

If Pete Rose had ever been able to express remorse, he would already be in. His attitude has kept him out as much as his gambling.

[jacket98,99]

If Pete Rose had ever been able to express remorse, he would already be in. His attitude has kept him out as much as his gambling.

I think you are probaly right about that and that's what bothers me. Way too much bias and hypocrisy in the selection process, but it is what it is.

[Cam]

Absolutely. Alcoholics, drug abusers, and adulterers have been voted into the HOF. Gambling is no different...just another form of addiction.

....I was addicted once....to LOVE!.......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcATvu5f9vE&feature=kp

Little do people know that the chick on the left playing keyboards is really Boy George!!.....:spitlol:

RIP - Robert Palmer

[Tejastrue]

If Pete Rose had ever been able to express remorse, he would already be in. His attitude has kept him out as much as his gambling.

He is definitely the arrogant, egotistical sort and I hate this about him but man the guy could play some ball and his numbers don't lie.

[speedbump]

I understand what you are saying that it is more than just about the numbers. It is no secret that Rose bet on some games. As stated earlier and I agree, he has paid the price. To me he was the epitome of a major league baseball player. He has and probably still to this day deals with the demons of gambling but no way, at least in my mind, did he tarnish the integrity of the game.

defense51 mentioned some examples of the double standards and the hypocrisy of being voted in or out. Another is Gaylord Perry who openly admitted cheating, even while he was still pitching. He was suspended, but is in the HOF. How can you post his numbers in Cooperstown?

Pete Rose broke the number one rule in baseball and it surely changed the outcome of games. That definitely is a hit on the games integrity. His arrogant, defiant attitude as he lied about it over and over and over made clear what a low life the guy is. Epitome of a baseball player? I'm sure there are many great players that put up Rose type numbers AND treated the game with respect. Stan Musial jumps out at me - Rose couldn't carry Musials jock. As for Gaylord Perry - Most little kids learn that two wrongs don't make a right. One sure fire way to damage the integrity of the game,would be to induct Rose into the HOF. They do that and they might as well put clown hats on all the greats that got there by being great players and decent people.

[Tejastrue]

Charlie Hustle....:cheerl:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/20131212/4922091/pete-rose-home-plate-collision-gif-o.gif


http://deadspin.com/5314473/why-pete-rose-didnt-ruin-ray-fosses-career

[Tejastrue]

Speedbump, if you can show me some evidence that what Rose did altered the outcome of ballgames then I'll bow down and cry mercy.

My comments are based solely on the player not the person. He is indeed a jerk but the HOF has plenty of jerks lining the halls. From reading the history, Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth are perfect examples. Could go on and on. What I see with Perry is that it is telling kids it's okay to cheat. I'm all for the HOF being a place for decent people/great players but seriously, that bird has flown.

[YTBulldogs]

Speedbump, if you can show me some evidence that what Rose did altered the outcome of ballgames then I'll bow down and cry mercy.

My comments are based solely on the player not the person. He is indeed a jerk but the HOF has plenty of jerks lining the halls. From reading the history, Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth are perfect examples. Could go on and on. What I see with Perry is that it is telling kids it's okay to cheat. I'm all for the HOF being a place for decent people/great players but seriously, that bird has flown.

:2thumbsup Totally agree Tt. Talking the guy with the most hit's ever in MLB. He's more than paid his price for his wrongs. Not sure what's worse among addictions of those in the hall now. A gambling one or drugs and alcohol ones? If he bet against his team to lose, I could really see this life time ban.

[speedbump]

Speedbump, if you can show me some evidence that what Rose did altered the outcome of ballgames then I'll bow down and cry mercy.
I'm all for the HOF being a place for decent people/great players but seriously, that bird has flown.

I'm sure there were games where Rose used his pen differently because of his bet and a day or two later he had fewer options because of it,which probably resulted in a loss that could have been avoided with proper use of the pen. Of course Rose didn't care - he already won the game that was most important for him.

Has that bird flown because of people with my attitude or yours? OJ cut a couple of throats and got away with it,so should the next guy that does it walk? Using your logic the answer has to be yes.

[speedbump]

:2thumbsup Totally agree Tt. Talking the guy with the most hit's ever in MLB. He's more than paid his price for his wrongs. Not sure what's worse among addictions of those in the hall now. A gambling one or drugs and alcohol ones? If he bet against his team to lose, I could really see this life time ban.

You keep saying he's MORE than paid his price. Did you change the rules or something? Last I heard the price for betting on ML games while under contract,was a lifetime ban from MLB including the HOF. How do you come up with more?

[Tejastrue]

Now you are basing your thoughts on pure speculation. No one is disputing the fact he bet on games. Judging from the poll the majority here feel the same as I do... and how can you even include an OJ type individual in the conversation. We have become an "apologize and you are redeemed" society yet I guess because of his stubbornness and refusal to do such a thing, Rose will take the HOF snub to his grave.

It would be wonderful if all the HOF guys were of great stature and character. Men of valour. You know the type. The kind a father would gladly walk down the aisle with to pass their daughter's hand in marriage. Trust me, I know about this one. I'm also not above things to know that this is humanly impossible. It's an imperfect world. My point being there is no HOF in any sport that is sacred and holy nor will there ever be...

Just an afterthought...what a pickle that MLB is in now, when they basically endorsed PED usage in the 90s however indirect it may have been and how about the claims of juicing the baseball to increase productivity. :thinking:

[cougartino]

If the rule is, you bet on the game then you'll get a lifetime ban, that settles it. Now if they change the rule, fine, he's in. But if you change that rule for him, you have to change it for everyone. But what happens then when players of today start betting on games?

[defense51]

I'm sure there were games where Rose used his pen differently because of his bet and a day or two later he had fewer options because of it,which probably resulted in a loss that could have been avoided with proper use of the pen. .
Can you substantiate your statement in any way?

[Tejastrue]

If the rule is, you bet on the game then you'll get a lifetime ban, that settles it. Now if they change the rule, fine, he's in. But if you change that rule for him, you have to change it for everyone. But what happens then when players of today start betting on games?

Yes...Rule 21..yet it was not until a couple of years later (1991) after the ban that the HOF adopts the Pete Rose rule.

[Tejastrue]

Can you substantiate your statement in any way?

Again, there is no dispute of the gambling but from what I have read his bets placed for his own team were all to win. Not sure how a pen can change the outcome there...

[speedbump]

Can you substantiate your statement in any way?

Just speculation. One would have to be naive to think betting on games he managed didn't affect more than just that game.

[speedbump]

Again, there is no dispute of the gambling but from what I have read his bets placed for his own team were all to win. Not sure how a pen can change the outcome there...

Did you read what I said?

[defense51]

I'm sure there were games where Rose used his pen differently because of his bet and a day or two later he had fewer options because of it,which probably resulted in a loss that could have been avoided with proper use of the pen. Of course Rose didn't care - he already won the game that was most important for him.

Has that bird flown because of people with my attitude or yours? OJ cut a couple of throats and got away with it,so should the next guy that does it walk? Using our logic the answer has to be yes.
Isn't that the way every manager works for a 162 season? Sometimes you have to use players that limit their use in future games? You could second guess every manager in baseball at some point, some more than others! I understand your concept, but have seen no proof that his lineup cost the Reds a loss at any point. Major League Baseball has been very wishy washy on their suspensions, I'm not sure lifting one more suspension would change anything at this point.

[speedbump]

Isn't that the way every manager works for a 162 season?

No - Only the ones that bet on games. If you change the way you would have used your pen because you bet on the game it would affect the way you would use your pen in the following game or games. For other managers the games dictate how you do things not your book maker.

[Tejastrue]

Did you read what I said?

Not before I posted. Doesn't change much.

[Tejastrue]

I guess you could use the argument it was an "at all costs" managing style because of the money involved.

People serve life sentences for murder and such. It's been 25 years folks. MLB can easily reinstate if they choose to do so.

Last thing...we are talking about adult men making millions of dollars to play a childhood game. A major cause for greed. I enjoy my pro sports but it's for this reason, that when it comes down to it, I favor watching a high school game over any other.

[rb585]

Speedbump, if you can show me some evidence that what Rose did altered the outcome of ballgames then I'll bow down and cry mercy.


We don't have full evidence because Rose voluntarily agreed to a lifetime ban in exchange for MLB to cease investigating.

Why would someone agree to the full penalty in a plea bargain? Could it be the was more stuff that he didn't want MLB to turn up?

[rb585]

Now you are basing your thoughts on pure speculation.

And that's why there's a lifetime ban for gambling on games you're involved in.

Because as soon as the news gets out that players/managers are gambling, the public will rightly speculate whether the actual competition in the games is on the up-and-up.

I buy a ticket to watch baseball for legit competition, not to watch the WWF where the result of the contest is pre-determined.

[rb585]

Again, there is no dispute of the gambling but from what I have read his bets placed for his own team were all to win. Not sure how a pen can change the outcome there...

If you're not betting on your team to win every day, the days you don't bet are effectively betting on them to lose. A manager has an incentive to rest his regulars differently and use his bullpen differently if some days he has a bet down and some days he doesn't.

[Tejastrue]

Again, we could go on and on with the speculation...

Don't know how familiar you are with that Cincinnati Reds (Big Red Machine) team of the 1970's but if you want to talk about legit, that was the team. I was never a Reds fan but to this day I'd paid good money to watch that team compete. In regards to Rose, you knew what you were going to get whenever he was in the lineup...100%

It appears, at least to me, that Rose was/is a pathological gambler. He refused to admit he ever had a problem. Why would you risk your livelihood and career if there were not issues. It is an illness and should have been treated as such. He was a high profile personality so the league had to set an example. This is not an attempt to condone his actions. I just feel they could have handled this differently.

[rb585]

Again, we could go on and on with the speculation...


And that's the whole point. Speculation about whether you're seeing legit competition will kill a sport. That's why Landis came down so hard on the Black Sox, it's why the NCAA permanently banned the NIT gamblers, and it's also why I (and many other people) quit watching the NBA (and then the Donaghy scandal came out the next year).

That's why you have a draconian rule about gambling and why you enforce it to the hilt.

[rb585]

He was a high profile personality so the league had to set an example. This is not an attempt to condone his actions. I just feel they could have handled this differently.

No, there has been a rule posted in every major league clubhouse since the 1920's outlining the prohibition of and the punishment for gambling on baseball. It's the only rule that MLB requires to be posted in the clubhouses. (Hell, Mays and Mantle got a temporary ban for simply being employed by a casino after they retired.)

I'm baffled as to why you think they shouldn't enforce that rule, especially because the guy they caught not only didn't confess, he spent over a decade slamming MLB and its leadership while proclaiming innocence, then finally announced that he was lying by writing a book so that he could profit on his confession that he bet on baseball but not on his team, then finally after another decade, announced that he bet on his team every game, which still doesn't match the evidence accumulated against him. It's unbelievable to me that anyone considers this amoral serial liar opportunist to be a sympathetic figure.

[Tejastrue]

The 1920s fiasco was a totally different beast.

Never said they should not have enforced the rule and a lifetime ban does not mean a lifetime. There has always been a reinstatement option if the league so chooses. I don't believe I ever called the guy a saint nor would I trust him with my checkbook or to feed my dogs but if you want to single Rose out for being the only amoral liar in sports history...well..that's just crazy.

Pete Rose the player, will always be respected in my book and is why I think he belongs in the HOF. There are many out there, who know the game, that feel the same way.

[speedbump]

There is no doubt in my mind that someday,I will hear someone try to defend texting and driving by calling it an illness. LOL

[Tejastrue]

Got to love the sarcasm. I've seen firsthand what this can do to a person and how it affects their lives, not to mention the collateral damage to friends, loved ones, and even acquaintances. Maybe you should look up the definition sometime. Rose has all the traits but my argument has never been about defending his transgressions. When a player has given so much to the game of baseball it's hard for me to overlook that even with his lofty faults and imperfections.

I think this thread has ran its course...at least for me...

[speedbump]

Yes addictions do affect more than just the person that has it. I've been around dozens of addictions,including one or two of my own.

[slpybear the bullfan]

To me its simple. He gambled when he was a manager? Fine. He goes in the hall for his play on the field, and his managing days never happened. The HOF pretends after he retired from playing he never was associated with Baseball again. I think he will be in the HOF by this method well before he dies.

Anyone who cheats at Baseball, whether it be steroids, stealing signs, doctoring balls, corking bats, etc. does so for gain. And in professional baseball, that means ultimately you are trying to make more $$$ by cheating than you could on your own natural talent and abilities. I have a much bigger issue with cheating than I do with a manager betting on his own team.

[speedbump]

I stopped reading when you said " The HOF pretends"

[rb585]

Never said they should not have enforced the rule and a lifetime ban does not mean a lifetime. There has always been a reinstatement option if the league so chooses. I don't believe I ever called the guy a saint nor would I trust him with my checkbook or to feed my dogs but if you want to single Rose out for being the only amoral liar in sports history...well..that's just crazy.


The reason "to single him out" for being an amoral liar is because this is a thread about Pete Rose, not a thread about amoral liars in baseball.

[rb585]

To me its simple. He gambled when he was a manager? Fine. He goes in the hall for his play on the field, and his managing days never happened.

What if he gambled on baseball when he was player?

[Tejastrue]

This thread is more than just about Rose. I came across a couple of articles. Take what you guys will from them...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/don-mcnay/the-hypocrisy-of-bud-seli_b_3713403.html

http://www.wellandtribune.ca/2014/03/24/pete-rose-the-hit-king-hustles-into-the-falls

[rb585]

This thread is more than just about Rose. I came across a couple of articles. Take what you guys will from them...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/don-mcnay/the-hypocrisy-of-bud-seli_b_3713403.html

http://www.wellandtribune.ca/2014/03/24/pete-rose-the-hit-king-hustles-into-the-falls

Those are just stupid. You take steroids, you're cheating. But you take steroids to be a better player. (Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, MLB got insanely popular during the Steroid Era.)

You do heroin because you're a selfish asshole -- hi, Josh Hamilton. You fight dogs because you're a selfish asshole -- hi, Mike Vick. And you bet on baseball, even though you've spent 30 years walking past a sign warning you that the penalty for betting on baseball is permanent banishment, because you're a selfish asshole.

[Tejastrue]

Stupid, really? How can you differentiate between any of this...you are either cheating John Q Public or cheating yourself. It has already been mentioned that PED usage and the HR boom (popularity) was the reason MLB allowed it to continue for so long. Now they are having to deal with the repercussions of it all yet there is no evidence that what Rose did, adversely affected MLB in in any shape, form or fashion. He defied the system, yes, not unlike the others you mentioned here. Label them assholes if you like...that is your prerogative.

[rb585]

Stupid, really? How can you differentiate between any of this...you are either cheating John Q Public or cheating yourself.

No, you're either cheating to win, or you're breaking a rule just because you're being a selfish asshole.

Gaylord Perry throwing spitters was cheating to win. Barry Bonds roiding himself up was cheating to win. Graig Nettles loading his bat with superballs was cheating to win.

Pete Rose went out and broke the number one rule in the game for absolutely no good reason.

[Tejastrue]

Lol..it's Rule #21 but seriously, how is cheating not higher than betting on games? Just because it's not posted on the wall does not mean it's any less significant. Gambling in all sports is big business and MLB is no exception. Rose was made an example of and because of his arrogance and defiance, was an easy sacrifice for the altar. No good reason you say...how about greed and money, he never needed the PEDs to out perform the players around him. I'd rather watch a habitual gambler play baseball as it was meant to be than a player trying to cheat at the game in any form or fashion.

[speedbump]

Lol..it's Rule #21 but seriously, how is cheating not higher than betting on games?

One (betting on games) compromises the integrity of the game and the other (cheating to gain advantage) doesn't.

[Tejastrue]

Sure about that...:thinking:

[speedbump]

Sure about that...:thinking:

100% sure.

[defense51]

One (betting on games) compromises the integrity of the game and the other (cheating to gain advantage) doesn't.

How can you possibly come to that conclusion?

[speedbump]

How can you possibly come to that conclusion?

Merriam - Webster : Compromise - " a change that makes something worse and that is not done for a good reason"

[Tejastrue]

It also states "honesty"

Say I'm taking PEDs or I've got a corked bat and hit that HR to win the game and we all know this has happened repeatedly over the steroid era or how about that slippery substance (or pine tar) that helped get that strikeout. How have I not enhanced the ability to alter the outcome of that game? I have essentially cheated. Honesty and integrity are one and the same. If Rose actually skewed his lineup on the days he did not bet in order for the results to be favorable to bookies or what have you, is this not also cheating? Granted, there is no hard evidence of this.

[defense51]

Merriam - Webster : Compromise - " a change that makes something worse and that is not done for a good reason"

So PED's made the game better and was for a good reason? You sound like a politician with that answer...:vrycnfsd:

[speedbump]

It also states "honesty"

Say I'm taking PEDs or I've got a corked bat and hit that HR to win the game and we all know this has happened repeatedly over the steroid era or how about that slippery substance (or pine tar) that helped get that strikeout. How have I not enhanced the ability to alter the outcome of that game? I have essentially cheated. Honesty and integrity are one and the same. If Rose actually skewed his lineup on the days he did not bet in order for the results to be favorable to bookies or what have you, is this not also cheating? Granted, there is no hard evidence of this.


The other guy already explained the difference between cheating to make yourself better and what Rose did. You just don't seem to get it.

[Tejastrue]

Yeah, okay. I think you guys are just splitting hairs.

[speedbump]

Yeah, okay. I think you guys are just splitting hairs.

We just know going through a school zone 30 MPH over the limit shouldn't have the same penalty as speeding on an open freeway.

[Tejastrue]

Poor comparison once again. I've at least tried to add some context to my argument. You guys have tunnel vision and I might add are in the minority with your viewpoint.

[speedbump]

Poor comparison once again. I've at least tried to add some context to my argument. You guys have tunnel vision and I might add are in the minority with your viewpoint.

We seem to be splitting hairs because you lump different rules and different penalties together. If we were in the minority,Rose would be in the Hall this thread would not exist.

[Tejastrue]

It took one man to ban him and to this day it still takes one man to keep it so or reinstate him. My point was always the hypocrisy. Gambling was, is and always will be condoned by MLB and any other professional sport. There is too much money in it. The fact Rose bet on the sport he played has very little relevance here. This was no Black Sox scandal nor any resemblance of.. the punishment never fit the crime. Keep him out of MLB "the league" if they want but let him have an opportunity to be voted into the HOF. Now, not later. He earned that as a player.

[speedbump]

The fact Rose bet on the sport he played has very little relevance here.

Unbelievable. I'm done.

[Tejastrue]

Don't misconstrue what I have said. Just a point I was trying to make. I don't think things are as cut and dry as some would like to think.