Washington Redskins - Offensive?

[Macarthur]

This was on another board and I think it's an interesting coversation.

In light of Daniel Snyder saying he would never change the name of the team, I'm curious how everyone feels about it.

I personally think it should be changed. I think we would all be offended if a team was named the Blackskins or Yellowskins or Negros, etc.

[BEAST]

This was on another board and I think it's an interesting coversation.

In light of Daniel Snyder saying he would never change the name of the team, I'm curious how everyone feels about it.

I personally think it should be changed. I think we would all be offended if a team was named the Blackskins or Yellowskins or Negros, etc.

Seriously? Redskins does not = negros. Pale Faces would not bother me one bit. Everybody needs to get off of the P.C. soapbox.




BEAST

[Macarthur]

Seriously? Redskins does not = negros.

I think it does.

How about this Washington Redskins vs. the Chicago Blackskins. How about that. and the helmet for the blackskins has the head of a black dude on it?



Pale Faces would not bother me one bit. Everybody needs to get off of the P.C. soapbox.

BEAST

Isn't it funny how white guys that have never experienced discrimination should tell those that have how they should feel about it? :)

[BEAST]

I think it does.

How about this Washington Redskins vs. the Chicago Blackskins. How about that. and the helmet for the blackskins has the head of a black dude on it?




Isn't it funny how white guys that have never experienced discrimination should tell those that have how they should feel about it? :)

Two of my best friends in this world are minorities. One black, the other Mexican. They would both tell you to get over it. If we get rid of Redskins I suppose Cowboys would be next? They kind of go together dont they?




BEAST

[Bullaholic]

Two of my best friends in this world are minorities. One black, the other Mexican. They would both tell you to get over it. If we get rid of Redskins I suppose Cowboys would be next? They kind of go together dont they?




BEAST

That's now "Cattle Managers", beast.....:D

[Macarthur]

Two of my best friends in this world are minorities. One black, the other Mexican. They would both tell you to get over it. If we get rid of Redskins I suppose Cowboys would be next? They kind of go together dont they?




BEAST

Ah, yes, the old 'I have black friends argument'. :dispntd:

[maestro]

What is the historical reference or history on why the Washington DC owners chose this name?

I've heard arguments that suggest that most if not all team names/mascots were named that as a show of honor and heritage.

Cannot imagine any owner of a team choosing a name for the sole purpose to piss off the fan base.

But I would like for someone to research the original intent of the mascot.

[cougartino]

The best way to resolve this is the ask Native Americans. If the vast majority are offended, then it's offensive.

[Cam]

....this thread could get fun!.......I'm already lickin' my chops!....

....and just remember, I ain't racist...I hate everybody equally!.....:D

[Phil C]

How do the American Indians feel about it. You can't deny that the Confederate flag once existed.

[maestro]

How do the American Indians feel about it. You can't deny that the Confederate flag once existed.

That's the stars and bars battle flag

And yes it is been used by all sorts of scum today.

The official confederate flag is very similar to our Stars and Stripes.

The nazi symbol has a meaning in Native American culture.
And it is nothing like what hitler did with it.

[Cam]

Seriously? Redskins does not = negros. Pale Faces would not bother me one bit. Everybody needs to get off of the P.C. soapbox.




BEAST

....listen here honkus.....cracka.....or as I prefer, pinche gringo!.....the next time I hear you mention a Redskin you and I are gonna have to settle it man to man cause you know I love you you big nasty brute!......:crazy1:......plus ya know I'm a Cowboys fan!...

[Macarthur]

The best way to resolve this is the ask Native Americans. If the vast majority are offended, then it's offensive.

But what if it's not a vast majority? Just because it's not 51% doesn't mean it's not in poor taste.

Do I need to remind everyone that slavery was supported by a majority of American's at one point in it's history. The majority can be wrong.

[panfan]

This was on another board and I think it's an interesting coversation.

In light of Daniel Snyder saying he would never change the name of the team, I'm curious how everyone feels about it.

I personally think it should be changed. I think we would all be offended if a team was named the Blackskins or Yellowskins or Negros, etc.

So should I be offended if someone calls me a dago or wop, or chicano, or vato, or cracker, or what else do they call caucasions? All of the above have happened. But I'm such a mixed pedigree (better than your average dog) that personally - don't matter none. By now, are there truly in pure blooded american indians left in this country? Lots of mixed ancestry for sure. Just curious of your take on this, since you brought it up.

[Macarthur]

So should I be offended if someone calls me a dago or wop, or chicano, or vato, or cracker, or what else do they call caucasions? All of the above have happened. But I'm such a mixed pedigree (better than your average dog) that personally - don't matter none. By now, are there truly in pure blooded american indians left in this country? Lots of mixed ancestry for sure. Just curious of your take on this, since you brought it up.

There are a lot of mixed races, sure, but I'm not sure that really matters with the discussion.

If someone calls a kid the N word and his Dad is black and his mom is white, that doesn't really make it any less offensive.

[defense51]

I don't understand what's offensive, it's not done in a derogatory manor.

[BEAST]

How do the American Indians feel about it. You can't deny that the Confederate flag once existed.

What does the Conferate Flag have to do with Indians?




BEAST

[Cam]

[QUOTE=Macarthur;1744087]I think it does.

How about this Washington Redskins vs. the Chicago Blackskins. How about that. and the helmet for the blackskins has the head of a black dude on it?

:thinking:.....well, if the head of a Black dude looks like Denzel Washington, I gots no problem with it...cause he's a handsome sumbitch!......but if the Black dude has exaggerated flared nostrils, then maybe I'd reconsider......kinda like the nose on the Redskin logo...that honker is huge!...nobody has a nose like that...well, cept for maybe some Jewish folk!........who thought of that nose anyway?......like Moe of the Three Stooges once said, "I don't know, it was my idea, but I don't think much of it!"........


....I ain't racist...I hate everybody equally......

[Rabid Cougar]

Anything having to do with the Washington Redskins offends me. Mentioning it on the board offends me. I think they should be banned from being mentioned ont hsi board. Along with the Steelers,the Patriots and the 49'ers. AND the Longhorns and Bears!!!!!; Offensive ALL!

[Cam]

Anything having to do with the Washington Redskins offends me. Mentioning it on the board offends me. I think they should be banned from being mentioned ont hsi board. Along with the Steelers,the Patriots and the 49'ers. AND the Longhorns and Bears!!!!!; Offensive ALL!


Death to the infidels!......

[panfan]

[QUOTE=Macarthur;1744087]I think it does.

How about this Washington Redskins vs. the Chicago Blackskins. How about that. and the helmet for the blackskins has the head of a black dude on it?

:thinking:.....well, if the head of a Black dude looks like Denzel Washington, I gots no problem with it...cause he's a handsome sumbitch!......but if the Black dude has exaggerated flared nostrils, then maybe I'd reconsider......kinda like the nose on the Redskin logo...that honker is huge!...nobody has a nose like that...well, cept for maybe some Jewish folk!........who thought of that nose anyway?......like Moe of the Three Stooges once said, "I don't know, it was my idea, but I don't think much of it!"........


....I ain't racist...I hate everybody equally......

Hate is such a strong word -

[Cam]

look...i've been called every name in the book......but I started it!......:taunt:

[Cam]

[QUOTE=Cam;1744118]

Hate is such a strong word -

are you gettin' all serious on me panfan?.....

[panfan]

[QUOTE=panfan;1744121]

are you gettin' all serious on me panfan?.....

not hardly -:D

[Macarthur]

I don't understand what's offensive, it's not done in a derogatory manor.

Are you indian?

[Cam]

What does the Conferate Flag have to do with Indians?




BEAST

ARe you talkin' bout the Cleveland Indians???.....:vrycnfsd:

[BEAST]

ARe you talkin' bout the Cleveland Indians???.....:vrycnfsd:

Whoops. I suppose they should change their name also.




BEAST

[Rabid Cougar]

Death to the infidels!......

Wait a minute.... I am an Infidel. Even have an official patch that says I am.

[defense51]

Are you indian?

Not that I'm aware of, I'm more along the Irish-Scandinavian heritage. Cam, whatcha got for that?

[Cam]

Are you indian?

You bet he is Mac.....shoot, just about every red blooded American claims they got some Indian in them.....Here's an example: My new neighbor who talks funny and wears this funny little hat which I'm guessin' is Dutch or something...so I asked him, "Where are you from?"....and his reply was, "Well, I was born in Germany but my parents came to the United States when I was only 10. My father served in the German army but fell in love with a Polish girl during the invasion. Especially when he realized that Polish girls do shave their armpits! So, he quickly changed his way of thinking and defected. Anyways, I made my way down to Texas back in the 70's and just love it here......ohh, and I'm also 1/64 Apache Indian!" :vrycnfsd: ......so I'm thinkin'..."What in the hell?"......Nice guy though.......

[cougartino]

[QUOTE=Cam;1744118]

Hate is such a strong word -

Musty is a strong word. I hate it when folks are musty!

[Cam]

Not that I'm aware of, I'm more along the Irish-Scandinavian heritage. Cam, whatcha got for that?


Whoa!....I ain't got nothin' for that cept that maybe you gots some red hairs on your ass!......:spitlol:.......I need more time to think dammit!......but I'll bet you have 1/128 Comanche blood in ya!....

[Phil C]

BE POLITICALLY CORRECT!!

:flaming:

[Macarthur]

Not that I'm aware of, I'm more along the Irish-Scandinavian heritage. Cam, whatcha got for that?

Then why would you find it offensive?

[Txbroadcaster]

been a couple of studies done and I know on one of them it was 91% of Indians asked were not offended..I will try to find the link

[Cam]

been a couple of studies done and I know on one of them it was 91% of Indians asked were not offended..I will try to find the link

yeah...but that 91% are the ones that own all them casinos!...."Come on in, come on in. Bring some money! Today's lunch special is Tahtonka steak, acorn mush, bean bread, and for dessert, Wojapi pudding. And if we catch cheating, we scalp em yo ass'"

[Cam]

BE POLITICALLY CORRECT!!

:flaming:

Wha?...

[Saggy Aggie]

This was on another board and I think it's an interesting coversation.

In light of Daniel Snyder saying he would never change the name of the team, I'm curious how everyone feels about it.

I personally think it should be changed. I think we would all be offended if a team was named the Blackskins or Yellowskins or Negros, etc.


Have you ever heard someone use the phrase redskin in a degrading way? I wouldn't say that is equal to 'blackskins' because Indians aren't referred to as reds like African Americans are called blacks.

Also, because people are white that means they've never been discriminated against?

I couldn't care less about the name. I think people that are offended need to get over it.

[Macarthur]

Have you ever heard someone use the phrase redskin in a degrading way? I wouldn't say that is equal to 'blackskins' because Indians aren't referred to as reds like African Americans are called blacks.

I can't say I've ever heard anyone called redskin in a derogatory manner. That doesn't mean it isn't though just because you or I haven't heard it.

If some started called Jews 'big nose' I think we would all agree that is not appropriate.

I don't think the second part of that matters regarding reds. Blacks isn't necessarily a derogatory comment although it's not as accepted as it once was.


Also, because people are white that means they've never been discriminated against?


Thats a good question. I would say that some whites have experienced it on some levels. The irish were discrimated against. But for the sake of this argument, no, a Anglos in America have not experienced anything even approaching the level of discrimination faced by African Americans and Indians in this country.


I couldn't care less about the name. I think people that are offended need to get over it.

So again I say, why would you care less.... You're not Indian.

And it's easy to say get over it when your not the one being discrimated against.

[Roughneck93]

What is the historical reference or history on why the Washington DC owners chose this name?

I've heard arguments that suggest that most if not all team names/mascots were named that as a show of honor and heritage.

Cannot imagine any owner of a team choosing a name for the sole purpose to piss off the fan base.

But I would like for someone to research the original intent of the mascot.

"In 1932 (http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nfl/washington/redskins.html) the football team was originally created and named the Boston Braves. Teams during this time period generally mirrored their baseball counterparts, as was the case with the New York Giants for example. In their first season the Boston Braves had enormous losses in revenue, and it was decided that changes needed to be made. Along with moving the team to Fenway Park in 1933, the Boston Braves changed their name to the Redskins. Now, there are two main theories as to why this name was chosen. First, the team may have wanted a similar name to the remaining baseball team in Boston, the Boston Red Sox. The second and more widely accepted theory is that the team was named Redskins to honor its coach Lone Star Dietz, who was a Native American. In 1937 the team was moved to Washington D.C., and it kept the name, the Washington Redskins. That is how the Washington Redskins came to have their name today."...

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ac-7098910

[BwdLion73]

Isn't it funny how white guys that have never experienced discrimination should tell those that have how they should feel about it? :)

Really!

[Roughneck93]

ARe you talkin' bout the Cleveland Indians???.....:vrycnfsd:


Whoops. I suppose they should change their name also.




BEAST

Lol...

http://americanindiantah.com/Mascots/canyouimage.gif

:D

[Tejastrue]

I'm offended by the restaurant named Cracker Barrel. I'm so angry I think I'll head out to a honky tonk and try..to..get..over..it.

[defense51]

Then why would you find it offensive?

I wouldn't, nor would I find it offensive if they were the paleskins or caucasians. Your avatar could be considered offensive to persons of Japanese heritage, should you change it?

[NastySlot]

I wouldn't, nor would I find it offensive if they were the paleskins or caucasians. Your avatar could be considered offensive to persons of Japanese heritage, should you change it?

Why would it be offensive? They lost their first war ever and came out pretty good because of MacArthur s reforms politically and economically.

[movethechain]

Lol...

http://americanindiantah.com/Mascots/canyouimage.gif

:D

They all look really happy to me.

[Macarthur]

I wouldn't, nor would I find it offensive if they were the paleskins or caucasians. Your avatar could be considered offensive to persons of Japanese heritage, should you change it?

Exactly my point. You wouldn't find it offensive. Understand the point?

The pale skin point is silly because paleskins have not been discriminated against.

In case some are having a hard time getting the point, white folks don't get to decide what is racially insensitive and what is not.

[Saggy Aggie]

I can't say I've ever heard anyone called redskin in a derogatory manner. That doesn't mean it isn't though just because you or I haven't heard it.

If some started called Jews 'big nose' I think we would all agree that is not appropriate.

I don't think the second part of that matters regarding reds. Blacks isn't necessarily a derogatory comment although it's not as accepted as it once was.



Thats a good question. I would say that some whites have experienced it on some levels. The irish were discrimated against. But for the sake of this argument, no, a Anglos in America have not experienced anything even approaching the level of discrimination faced by African Americans and Indians in this country.



So again I say, why would you care less.... You're not Indian.

And it's easy to say get over it when your not the one being discrimated against.


The fact that You or me or anyone i know has never heard it used in a derogatory way would suggest to me that the intent is not negative and therefor not discriminatory. I completely disagree on the whites not being discriminated against. They may not be discriminated against as much for their skin color as black people, but if you think white kids are not discriminated against in schools nowadays, then you're just being willfully ignorant. Discrimination is an everyday occurrence in today's world regardless of skin tone.

Also, you don't know that I'm not Indian. I am not full blood Indian, but my paternal grandfather is. Ask him if he cares? Hell no.

Reason why? Because no one intends redskins to be a derogatory term. I think we'd all agree that 'blackskins' would be a completely different story. The intent is not negative and in fact, I believe there is a high degree of respect for American Indians.

[Saggy Aggie]

Exactly my point. You wouldn't find it offensive. Understand the point?

The pale skin point is silly because paleskins have not been discriminated against.

In case some are having a hard time getting the point, white folks don't get to decide what is racially insensitive and what is not.

Lol completely ignorant to say white people aren't discriminated against.

Black people and Mexicans are the only races which experience serious discrimination. When's the past time you heard someone making fun of an American Indian?

You're stretching...

[Macarthur]

Lol completely ignorant to say white people aren't discriminated against.

Black people and Mexicans are the only races which experience serious discrimination. When's the past time you heard someone making fun of an American Indian?

You're stretching...

The irony of your post is rich. I'm ignorant?

Give me some examples of discrimination of whites? What is this discrimination that happens everyday to whites?

[Tejastrue]

I really don't think we should go there.

[Saggy Aggie]

The irony of your post is rich. I'm ignorant?

Give me some examples of discrimination of whites? What is this discrimination that happens everyday to whites?

In my last post, meant to say discrimination based on skin tone... but im sure you understood what i meant.


As far as discrimination that whites can face...

Height, weight, being a 'nerd', and not to mention red headed kids are discriminated against more than any minority these days....


It doesnt matter what you look like these days, the dorky little white kids are the one who get picked on school these days. This isnt the 50's where blacks are seperated and discriminated against. If anything, reverse discrimination is prominent these days. Its obvious you are completely out of touch if you think only blacks and mexicans get discriminated against.

[pirate4state]

Ban!
Redskins suck!

[Macarthur]

In my last post, meant to say discrimination based on skin tone... but im sure you understood what i meant.


As far as discrimination that whites can face...

Height, weight, being a 'nerd', and not to mention red headed kids are discriminated against more than any minority these days....


It doesnt matter what you look like these days, the dorky little white kids are the one who get picked on school these days. This isnt the 50's where blacks are seperated and discriminated against. If anything, reverse discrimination is prominent these days. Its obvious you are completely out of touch if you think only blacks and mexicans get discriminated against.

I understand what you mean but I'm talking about systematic discrimination . So are you saying that minorities are not discriminated against today?

Reverse discrimination is a myth.

Here's a god read on it.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/07/15/884649/-Why-there-s-no-such-thing-as-Reverse-Racism#

[Tejastrue]

Descrimination is a global phenomenom. For you to deny that reverse descrimination does not exist is just asinine. You sir.. are an ass! BTW..love your typo..

[Old Tiger]

Dave Chapelle talking about Indians in one of his stand ups.


If anyone is discriminated against it is middle easterners.

[Saggy Aggie]

I understand what you mean but I'm talking about systematic discrimination . So are you saying that minorities are not discriminated against today?

Reverse discrimination is a myth.

Here's a god read on it.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/07/15/884649/-Why-there-s-no-such-thing-as-Reverse-Racism#

I'm not saying that discrimination doesnt happen against minorities. In fact, I'm well aware that it does. I'm only trying to say that its not nearly as bad as it used to be and that whites are definitely discriminated against as well, which you clearly were saying was not the case.


And i'll take time to read the article tomorrow, but from my eperience, reverse discrimination is almost as prominent as actual discrimination. Cant tell you how many times ive walked the halls through school and seen groups of black kids making fun of the white kids. All I'm saying is that it goes both ways, and if theres anyone that doesnt really get discriminated against, its american indians. And even if they did, it wouldnt be by referring to them as redskins.

I think the fact that 3 american sports teams are named after indians is actually a sign of respect.


Should we get rid of the vikings too? I'm sure their descendants are offended as well...

[Saggy Aggie]

If anyone is discriminated against it is middle easterners.

First time OT has ever said anything intelligent.

[Tejastrue]

First time OT has ever said anything intelligent.


Said Dave Chappelle

[Macarthur]

Descrimination is a global phenomenom. For you to deny that reverse descrimination does not exist is just asinine. You sir.. are an ass! BTW..love your typo..

Discrimination is discrimination.

Reverse discrimination is a myth.

[Macarthur]

I'm not saying that discrimination doesnt happen against minorities. In fact, I'm well aware that it does. I'm only trying to say that its not nearly as bad as it used to be and that whites are definitely discriminated against as well, which you clearly were saying was not the case.


And i'll take time to read the article tomorrow, but from my eperience, reverse discrimination is almost as prominent as actual discrimination. Cant tell you how many times ive walked the halls through school and seen groups of black kids making fun of the white kids. All I'm saying is that it goes both ways, and if theres anyone that doesnt really get discriminated against, its american indians. And even if they did, it wouldnt be by referring to them as redskins.

I think the fact that 3 american sports teams are named after indians is actually a sign of respect.


Should we get rid of the vikings too? I'm sure their descendants are offended as well...

Of course black people can be racist against whites. That's not discrimination. Read the article because it does a good job of explaining what the actual terms mean. You're speaking of people being racist and doing racist things. That's different than discrimination.

[Tejastrue]

Reverse discrimination is a myth.

I know it is late..but is that all you got?

[Macarthur]

I know it is late..but is that all you got?

Well, I posted a nice article that explains it quite well.

[Tejastrue]

Well, I posted a nice article that explains it quite well.

After reading that I feel extraordinarily better about any of my previous posts.

[Saggy Aggie]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/07/15/884649/-Why-there-s-no-such-thing-as-Reverse-Racism#


Just kidding, decided to read it since you're apparently so convinced that reverse discrimination doesnt exist.


Gotta be one of the most moronic things I've ever read. I feel like my IQ just went down.


First off, his definition of racism?

"patterns of discrimination that are institutionalized as "normal" throughout an entire culture."

Are you f***in kidding me? Normal throughout an entire culture? no...


Next...

"the truth of the matter is that black people: 1) have far less opportunity to discriminate against whites than whites have to discriminate against blacks, overall; and 2) black people lack a system of institutionalized support that protect them when they discriminate against whites."

Seriously? reverse discrimination isnt real because blacks dont have opportunity to discriminate and they dont have protection when they discriminate?? What...?


Next... "The right wing popularized the term "Reverse Racism" because they were really angry at having their white privileges challenged."

I dont think this guy even understands what racism is...

This is clearly just a left wing minority extremist jumping at the opportunity talk down on white folks and right wing republicans, and makes that painfully clear.

[Macarthur]

Maybe you need to read the definition of racism


rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Origin:
1865–70; < French racisme. See race2 , -ism

Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2013.



What would your definition be?

I will ask a second time, please give me examples of this pervasive reverse discrimination that is so appearent to everyone but me.

[Saggy Aggie]

Maybe you need to read the definition of racism


rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Origin:
1865–70; < French racisme. See race2 , -ism

Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2013.



What would your definition be?

I will ask a second time, please give me examples of this pervasive reverse discrimination that is so appearent to everyone but me.

The definition you just posted is based on individuals' thoughts. The articles definition says the idea is "normal throughout an entire culture"....


Thats quite a bit different... and the 2nd is just plain stupid.

[Macarthur]

The definition you just posted is based on individuals' thoughts. The articles definition says the idea is "normal throughout an entire culture"....


What?! Did you not read def #2?!

You clearly don't know the definition of the word. Words have meanings. It can't just mean what you want it to mean.


Thats quite a bit different... and the 2nd is just plain stupid.

The 2 nd part I don't think you understand what he's saying. To have systematic discrimination, that group must have power within that system to back up their discrimination. Blacks clearly have not had that.

[Saggy Aggie]

What?! Did you not read def #2?!

You clearly don't know the definition of the word. Words have meanings. It can't just mean what you want it to mean.



The 2 nd part I don't think you understand what he's saying. To have systematic discrimination, that group must have power within that system to back up their discrimination. Blacks clearly have not had that.


Racism is not "normal throughout an entire culture"....


Its a very small percentage of any given culture...

[Cam]

:1popcorn:......it's the Saggy Macarthur debate!.....

...who started this anyway?.....

[BwdLion73]

:1popcorn:......it's the Saggy Macarthur debate!.....

...who started this anyway?.....

Stay outa this Injun! :tisk::tisk:

[Cam]

Stay outa this Injun! :tisk::tisk:

:spitlol:....I for one sir....claim to have 0% Indian blood in me!.....but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night!......

[refereedoc]

:spitlol:....I for one sir....claim to have 0% Indian blood in me!.....but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night!......

What does this topic have to do with 3A sports anyway???? I'm glad someone has a real grasp on what is important. :crazy1:I have got to meet you Cam!

[Cam]

First time OT has ever said anything intelligent.

....Look out!....Saggy has done gradu-mactated...and now he's questioning folks intelligence!......:tisk:

[BwdLion73]

:spitlol:....I for one sir....claim to have 0% Indian blood in me!.....but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night!......

We may be related then. I thought I was the only person who does not claim to be part indian when at a drinking event. ;)

[Farmersfan]

Of course black people can be racist against whites. That's not discrimination. Read the article because it does a good job of explaining what the actual terms mean. You're speaking of people being racist and doing racist things. That's different than discrimination.




If government sets policies to promote the advancement of one race over another based on the idea that the race historically has had less opportunity, isn't that reverse discrimination? Even in the guise of correcting a historical wrong it can still be discrimination.

[Cam]

What does this topic have to do with 3A sports anyway???? I'm glad someone has a real grasp on what is important. :crazy1:I have got to meet you Cam!

Well I'd sure like to meet you too refereedoc....but I feel a little intimidated by you....with you being some sort of college professor or something like that!........Or do I have the wrong person?.....

....which reminds me of the time in college when I had this math teacher who had defected from the Soviet Union. He used to teach at the University of Moscow. Hell if I know how he ended up in Texas!....Anyways, he kicked me out of class for chewin' gum!.....Sombitch Commy bastard!......anyway, just a random thought......

[panfan]

What does this topic have to do with 3A sports anyway???? I'm glad someone has a real grasp on what is important. :crazy1:I have got to meet you Cam!

you don't want to do that - he's a crusty ol' fart :D

[Macarthur]

If government sets policies to promote the advancement of one race over another based on the idea that the race historically has had less opportunity, isn't that reverse discrimination? Even in the guise of correcting a historical wrong it can still be discrimination.

It CAN be in isolated cases, but I think it's a wildly irresponsible statement to say Whites have been harmed by Affirmative Action.

While I'm not sure I agree with 100% of this article, I think it does a pretty decent job of laying out Affirmative Action, especially myths 6 & 7. It really is a myth that Whites have been negatively affected by Affirmative Action.

http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm

[Macarthur]

I'm not sure I said that well after reading it, FF.

I think what I'm trying to get at is that, yes, discrimination can go either direction. I don't view that as Reverse Discrimination. It's just discrimination.

And stressing the point again that I think it's down right silly for Whites to think they have been negatively affected as a whole by the policies of assisting minorities and women. I think given how horribly our country treated minorities for most of it's history, it's the least we could do to help them.

[refereedoc]

Well I'd sure like to meet you too refereedoc....but I feel a little intimidated by you....with you being some sort of college professor or something like that!........Or do I have the wrong person?.....

....which reminds me of the time in college when I had this math teacher who had defected from the Soviet Union. He used to teach at the University of Moscow. Hell if I know how he ended up in Texas!....Anyways, he kicked me out of class for chewin' gum!.....Sombitch Commy bastard!......anyway, just a random thought......
Same guy. I grew up on a hog farm and coached a little in college, but got a PhD (piled higher and deeper) to stay around my kids more. I am a redneck ( or old fart) very similar to you. If you need a reference ask Roger Moore. We grew up together in the Ville.

[Cam]

We may be related then. I thought I was the only person who does not claim to be part indian when at a drinking event. ;)

We might just be BwdLion73....but who knows....Heck, I don't even know who I am!...Like I've said before, my last name is "adopted" (long story which ironically involves Indians)....anyways, my real last name should be Montenegro (which ironically again, has the word Negro in it! How cool is that?)......I know nothin' bout the name.....I do know there's a country named the same....but I think that country is just full commy bastards....but I'm not for sure my history sucks......but whether or not we're related, I still love ya!....:inlove:

[Saggy Aggie]

....Look out!....Saggy has done gradu-mactated...and now he's questioning folks intelligence!......:tisk:

Lol Mac is just crazy... But we've known that for a while :)

[Saggy Aggie]

I'm not sure I said that well after reading it, FF.

I think what I'm trying to get at is that, yes, discrimination can go either direction. I don't view that as Reverse Discrimination. It's just discrimination.


Okay, if that's how you wanna view it, then sure.

Fact of the matter is that discrimination started out as whites against minorities.

Now that it can go both ways, people LOOSELY refer to that as reverse discrimination. Now whether that is technically correct or not according to yours and others' definitions, is really beside the point.

[Macarthur]

Okay, if that's how you wanna view it, then sure.

Fact of the matter is that discrimination started out as whites against minorities.

Now that it can go both ways, people LOOSELY refer to that as reverse discrimination. Now whether that is technically correct or not according to yours and others' definitions, is really beside the point.

I may be crazy, but it's damn fun. ;)

There may be an element of word symantics at work here, but I think the major distinction needs to be made with regards to real institutional discrimination, which is what Whites benefited from for virtually all of our country's history. Minorities in this country have never been, and still are not, in a position to impose institutional discrimination against whites. And statistics just don't bear out that whites have suffered in the least from programs such as affirmative actions.

[Saggy Aggie]

I may be crazy, but it's damn fun. ;)

There may be an element of word symantics at work here, but I think the major distinction needs to be made with regards to real institutional discrimination, which is what Whites benefited from for virtually all of our country's history. Minorities in this country have never been, and still are not, in a position to impose institutional discrimination against whites. And statistics just don't bear out that whites have suffered in the least from programs such as affirmative actions.

Insitutionalized discrimination is a thing of the past.

It's unfortunate that minorities were discriminated for the majority if the US' history, but it's over now and we'll likely never see that type of discrimination again, based on race or gender anyways.

The closest thing we have to institutionalized discrimination now is based on sexual orientation, religion, etc.

[Bullaholic]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/robert-griffin-iii-posts-series-provocative-cryptic-tweets-153856215.html

[Macarthur]

Insitutionalized discrimination is a thing of the past.

It's unfortunate that minorities were discriminated for the majority if the US' history, but it's over now and we'll likely never see that type of discrimination again, based on race or gender anyways.

Saggy, I truly am not trying to keep being contrary, but I find your cavalier attitude toward this misguided. While I would agree that we have, for the most part, disposed of institutional racism with regards to laws, there are still, to this day, examples of institutional racism. For example, Red lining is still active. Steering is a practice in real estate that is still alive. Nationwide bank has recently been exposed for having policies that basically denied single women loans regardless of their financial status or credit history. These are examples of institutional discrimination.

Don't mistake insitutional with government and/or laws.


The closest thing we have to institutionalized discrimination now is based on sexual orientation, religion, etc.

NO doubt there is still some of this going on.

[Farmersfan]

I think it's down right silly for Whites to think they have been negatively affected as a whole by the policies of assisting minorities and women. I think given how horribly our country treated minorities for most of it's history, it's the least we could do to help them.





Please provide me with evidence or proof that African Americans as a group have been negatively affected by discrimination?

[Macarthur]

Come again?

[Saggy Aggie]

LOL, I'm with you on this one Mac

[Saggy Aggie]

Saggy, I truly am not trying to keep being contrary, but I find your cavalier attitude toward this misguided. While I would agree that we have, for the most part, disposed of institutional racism with regards to laws, there are still, to this day, examples of institutional racism. For example, Red lining is still active. Steering is a practice in real estate that is still alive. Nationwide bank has recently been exposed for having policies that basically denied single women loans regardless of their financial status or credit history. These are examples of institutional discrimination.

Don't mistake insitutional with government and/or laws.



NO doubt there is still some of this going on.

Alright, I see what difference you're referring to here. I can agree with that.

[Cam]

Well Hallelujah, we got us some agreement!.......light the fire and break out the marshmallows!.....

[Phantom Stang]

If some started called Jews 'big nose' I think we would all agree that is not appropriate.
I'm deeply offended by you speaking of Big Noses as if they're a bad thing.:mad:

Now, if someone wants to name a football team "The Big Noses", that's fine by me, because many great people throughout history have been Big Noses. We are a proud people, as are the Redskins.

[Roughneck93]

U.S. Patent and Trademark office cancels protection of Washington team name....

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/18/u-s-patent-and-trademark-office-cancels-washington-team-name/

[Aesculus gilmus]

I just thought of something related to this. Why hasn't the term "scalping" been outlawed yet as a description of the process of reselling tickets to various events?

[Bullaholic]

I just thought of something related to this. Why hasn't the term "scalping" been outlawed yet as a description of the process of reselling tickets to various events?

Just give it a while......

[Bullaholic]

I say let the council elders of the remaining Native American tribes poll their tribal members and vote their view of the Redskins logo as offensive or permissable and let this process decide this issue once and for all.

[Rattler]

Not sure if someone has posted this but its a good read.

Here is an email sent to Clarence Page of the Chicago Tribune after an article he published concerning a name change for the Washington Redskins.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Mr. Page...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I always love your articles. and I generally agree with them. I would suggest, as in an email I received, they change the name to the "Foreskins" to better represent their community, paying tribute to the di** heads in Congress.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here are some other politically correctness to consider: I agree with our Native American population. I am highly insulted by the racially charged name of the Washington Redskins. One might argue that to name a professional football team after Native Americans would exalt them as fine warriors, but nay, nay. We must be careful not to offend, and in the spirit of political correctness and courtesy, we must move forward. Let's ditch the Kansas City Chiefs, the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians. If your shorts are in a wad because of the reference the name Redskins makes to skin color, then we need to get rid of the Cleveland Browns.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Carolina Panthers obviously were named to keep the memory of militant Blacks from the 60's alive. Gone. It's offensive to us white folk.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The New York Yankees offend the Southern population. Do you see a team named for the Confederacy? No! There is no room for any reference to that tragic war that cost this country so many young men's lives.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am also offended by the blatant references to the Catholic religion among our sports team names. Totally inappropriate to have the New Orleans Saints, the Los Angeles Angels or the San Diego Padres.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then there are the team names that glorify criminals who raped and pillaged. We are talking about the horrible Oakland Raiders, the Minnesota Vikings, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Pittsburgh Pirates!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now, let us address those teams that clearly send the wrong message to our children. The San Diego Chargers promote irresponsible fighting or even spending habits. Wrong message to our children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The New York Giants and the San Francisco Giants promote obesity, a growing childhood epidemic. Wrong message to our children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Cincinnati Reds promote downers/barbiturates . Wrong message to our children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Milwaukee Brewers---well that goes without saying . . . Wrong message to our children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, there you go. We need to support any legislation that comes out to rectify this travesty, because the government will likely become involved with this issue, as they should. Just the kind of thing the do-nothing congress loves . . .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a die hard Oregon State fan, my wife and I, with all of this in mind, it might also make some sense to change the name of the Oregon State women's athletic teams to something other than "the Beavers."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Keep those cards and letters coming.

[caleb_mccaig]

I say let the council elders of the remaining Native American tribes poll their tribal members and vote their view of the Redskins logo as offensive or permissable and let this process decide this issue once and for all.

What percentage would be manageable to ban it though?

Would ten percent who are for it cross out ten percent who are against it?

It's just funny to me that this is just know becoming an issue. If it was before these past five or so years then I apologize, but to me it just seems like butthurt America striking again.

Next thing you know the Catholics will be crying for New Orleans to change their name.

[Macarthur]

Not sure if someone has posted this but its a good read.

Here is an email sent to Clarence Page of the Chicago Tribune after an article he published concerning a name change for the Washington Redskins.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Mr. Page...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I always love your articles. and I generally agree with them. I would suggest, as in an email I received, they change the name to the "Foreskins" to better represent their community, paying tribute to the di** heads in Congress.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here are some other politically correctness to consider: I agree with our Native American population. I am highly insulted by the racially charged name of the Washington Redskins. One might argue that to name a professional football team after Native Americans would exalt them as fine warriors, but nay, nay. We must be careful not to offend, and in the spirit of political correctness and courtesy, we must move forward. Let's ditch the Kansas City Chiefs, the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians. If your shorts are in a wad because of the reference the name Redskins makes to skin color, then we need to get rid of the Cleveland Browns.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Carolina Panthers obviously were named to keep the memory of militant Blacks from the 60's alive. Gone. It's offensive to us white folk.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The New York Yankees offend the Southern population. Do you see a team named for the Confederacy? No! There is no room for any reference to that tragic war that cost this country so many young men's lives.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am also offended by the blatant references to the Catholic religion among our sports team names. Totally inappropriate to have the New Orleans Saints, the Los Angeles Angels or the San Diego Padres.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then there are the team names that glorify criminals who raped and pillaged. We are talking about the horrible Oakland Raiders, the Minnesota Vikings, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Pittsburgh Pirates!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now, let us address those teams that clearly send the wrong message to our children. The San Diego Chargers promote irresponsible fighting or even spending habits. Wrong message to our children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The New York Giants and the San Francisco Giants promote obesity, a growing childhood epidemic. Wrong message to our children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Cincinnati Reds promote downers/barbiturates . Wrong message to our children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Milwaukee Brewers---well that goes without saying . . . Wrong message to our children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, there you go. We need to support any legislation that comes out to rectify this travesty, because the government will likely become involved with this issue, as they should. Just the kind of thing the do-nothing congress loves . . .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a die hard Oregon State fan, my wife and I, with all of this in mind, it might also make some sense to change the name of the Oregon State women's athletic teams to something other than "the Beavers."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Keep those cards and letters coming.

This really is a pretty silly article and makes light of the issue.

I find it quite amazing that someone can't see the difference in the nickname The Chiefs and Redskins.

As to bull's point about some sort of vote, when it comes to issues like this, thankfully, we do not have 'majority rule'. If we had majority rule, african americans would have most likely never received the rights they deserve. And don't believe the drivel that the Skins keep trotting out there that 90% of all Native American's approve. That poll was not exactly scientific.

http://newspaperrock.bluecorncomics.com/2012/12/annenbergs-redskins-survey.html

[cougartino]

How about retaining the logo but renaming the team Washington Native Americans?

[Macarthur]

Well, that doesn't sound very catchy. Obviously, they're not asking me, but I think they ought to sit down with some leadership from these Native American groups and ask them to help in the naming of the team. There is a reason teams like Chiefs or Braves are not catching as much heat. Those are clearly 'positive' terms, IMO, and don't focus on racial stereotypes or skin color or other 'darker' aspects of our nations history. I will say this, although the term Indians does not strike me as overtly offensive, the mascot the Cleveland Indians have had for some time is clearly pretty offensive.

[cougartino]

IF, and I mean a big IF, San Antonio ever gets an NFL team, I wouldn't mind seeing the old Gunslingers name, just with different colors.

"We're the Gunslingers of San Antone..." (whistle & hum)

[Macarthur]

IF, and I mean a big IF, San Antonio ever gets an NFL team, I wouldn't mind seeing the old Gunslingers name, just with different colors.

"We're the Gunslingers of San Antone..." (whistle & hum)

That would be cool. However, I could never imagine JJ letting that happen. Huge fan base for the Cowboys in SA.

[Tejastrue]

U.S. Patent and Trademark office cancels protection of Washington team name....

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/18/u-s-patent-and-trademark-office-cancels-washington-team-name/

It is disparaging "now"?..lol...The word gringo was considered disparaging too.

[pirate4state]

Why is Saggy Aggie listed as a "guest" ???

[slingshot]

Not sure if someone has posted this but its a good read.

Here is an email sent to Clarence Page of the Chicago Tribune after an article he published concerning a name change for the Washington Redskins.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Mr. Page...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I always love your articles. and I generally agree with them. I would suggest, as in an email I received, they change the name to the "Foreskins" to better represent their community, paying tribute to the di** heads in Congress.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here are some other politically correctness to consider: I agree with our Native American population. I am highly insulted by the racially charged name of the Washington Redskins. One might argue that to name a professional football team after Native Americans would exalt them as fine warriors, but nay, nay. We must be careful not to offend, and in the spirit of political correctness and courtesy, we must move forward. Let's ditch the Kansas City Chiefs, the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians. If your shorts are in a wad because of the reference the name Redskins makes to skin color, then we need to get rid of the Cleveland Browns.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Carolina Panthers obviously were named to keep the memory of militant Blacks from the 60's alive. Gone. It's offensive to us white folk.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The New York Yankees offend the Southern population. Do you see a team named for the Confederacy? No! There is no room for any reference to that tragic war that cost this country so many young men's lives.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am also offended by the blatant references to the Catholic religion among our sports team names. Totally inappropriate to have the New Orleans Saints, the Los Angeles Angels or the San Diego Padres.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then there are the team names that glorify criminals who raped and pillaged. We are talking about the horrible Oakland Raiders, the Minnesota Vikings, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Pittsburgh Pirates!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now, let us address those teams that clearly send the wrong message to our children. The San Diego Chargers promote irresponsible fighting or even spending habits. Wrong message to our children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The New York Giants and the San Francisco Giants promote obesity, a growing childhood epidemic. Wrong message to our children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Cincinnati Reds promote downers/barbiturates . Wrong message to our children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Milwaukee Brewers---well that goes without saying . . . Wrong message to our children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, there you go. We need to support any legislation that comes out to rectify this travesty, because the government will likely become involved with this issue, as they should. Just the kind of thing the do-nothing congress loves . . .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a die hard Oregon State fan, my wife and I, with all of this in mind, it might also make some sense to change the name of the Oregon State women's athletic teams to something other than "the Beavers."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Keep those cards and letters coming.LMAO! That nails it perfectly... people are too damned sensitive these days.

[WOS87]

Lol Mac is just crazy... But we've known that for a while :)

As a Psychiatrist I can guarantee to you all that EVERYONE is crazy... some just know how to hide it better than others; and secondly... not so sure about this thread. Watch yourselves. Caucasians in the USA have never been forced to move en masse 2000 miles and live in a reservation after having thousands of their friends and family essentially murdered when they had been here 30,000 years longer but just happened to not have the military technology to defend themselves. Houston Lamar is changing their mascot from the Redskins this year too. I honestly don't have a problem with it. If 90%+ of a culture is saying they feel disrespected then as an empathetic human being I respect that and don't feel I have any right to chime in and say "Hey! You're wrong! Deal with it!." Thousands of years of culture trumps 80 years of a football franchise that is in reality just a business there to make money. Less than a century of "tradition" means nothing really comparatively. Everyone complains about "political correctness" but people also abuse it as an excuse for bigotry. To each his own though.

[BwdLion73]

As a Psychiatrist I can guarantee to you all that EVERYONE is crazy... some just know how to hide it better than others; and secondly... not so sure about this thread. Watch yourselves. Caucasians in the USA have never been forced to move en masse 2000 miles and live in a reservation after having thousands of their friends and family essentially murdered when they had been here 30,000 years longer but just happened to not have the military technology to defend themselves. Houston Lamar is changing their mascot from the Redskins this year too. I honestly don't have a problem with it. If 90%+ of a culture is saying they feel disrespected then as an empathetic human being I respect that and don't feel I have any right to chime in and say "Hey! You're wrong! Deal with it!." Thousands of years of culture trumps 80 years of a football franchise that is in reality just a business there to make money. Less than a century of "tradition" means nothing really comparatively. Everyone complains about "political correctness" but people also abuse it as an excuse for bigotry. To each his own though.

Yup, crazy people everywhere. We must demand a congressional hearing imeadiatly so our political pandering politicians can grandstand.
I'm not crazy....I've been tested.

:crazy:

[GrTigers6]

I don't think it is offensive. But my main Question is why after 80+ years is it now offensive when it hasn't been all this time since they were named Redskins.

[RPF2666]

I grew up in a small town in Northern California that had a 'reservation' in it. Guess who the favorite NFL team, by far, of the folks living on the 'Rez' was...
the Washington Redskins. There was no regional reason for it (obviously), they were PROUD of it and wore jerseys, jackets, sweatshirts and hats to prove it.

[Macarthur]

As a Psychiatrist I can guarantee to you all that EVERYONE is crazy... some just know how to hide it better than others; and secondly... not so sure about this thread. Watch yourselves. Caucasians in the USA have never been forced to move en masse 2000 miles and live in a reservation after having thousands of their friends and family essentially murdered when they had been here 30,000 years longer but just happened to not have the military technology to defend themselves. Houston Lamar is changing their mascot from the Redskins this year too. I honestly don't have a problem with it. If 90%+ of a culture is saying they feel disrespected then as an empathetic human being I respect that and don't feel I have any right to chime in and say "Hey! You're wrong! Deal with it!." Thousands of years of culture trumps 80 years of a football franchise that is in reality just a business there to make money. Less than a century of "tradition" means nothing really comparatively. Everyone complains about "political correctness" but people also abuse it as an excuse for bigotry. To each his own though.

Good post.

[Tejastrue]

As a Psychiatrist I can guarantee to you all that EVERYONE is crazy... some just know how to hide it better than others; and secondly... not so sure about this thread. Watch yourselves. Caucasians in the USA have never been forced to move en masse 2000 miles and live in a reservation after having thousands of their friends and family essentially murdered when they had been here 30,000 years longer but just happened to not have the military technology to defend themselves. Houston Lamar is changing their mascot from the Redskins this year too. I honestly don't have a problem with it. If 90%+ of a culture is saying they feel disrespected then as an empathetic human being I respect that and don't feel I have any right to chime in and say "Hey! You're wrong! Deal with it!." Thousands of years of culture trumps 80 years of a football franchise that is in reality just a business there to make money. Less than a century of "tradition" means nothing really comparatively. Everyone complains about "political correctness" but people also abuse it as an excuse for bigotry. To each his own though.

I'm sure all of your patients would appreciate knowing your general view of society. I'd imagine it's pretty good money listening to all of those crazy people.

Where is the heck did you get that 90% stat? If anything, It's more the opposite.

I thought this was interesting...

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/05/29/retired-native-american-chief-would-be-offended-if-redskins-did-change-name/

[Macarthur]

I don't think it is offensive. But my main Question is why after 80+ years is it now offensive when it hasn't been all this time since they were named Redskins.

It's not JUST NOW offensive. It's like anything else. Things change over time and now it's time for this.



I grew up in a small town in Northern California that had a 'reservation' in it. Guess who the favorite NFL team, by far, of the folks living on the 'Rez' was...
the Washington Redskins. There was no regional reason for it (obviously), they were PROUD of it and wore jerseys, jackets, sweatshirts and hats to prove it.

Well, your experience is anecdotal so really doesn't address the bigger picture. It's a word that is based on a racial slur/stereotype. As we grow as a society, we should be sensitive to these things. People like to use some sort of defense of 'the old days' or 'back in my day', etc. Back in the old days, women couldn't vote and African Americans were 3/5 of a human.

I think there's another element here that WOS87 touched on that needs to be fully understood. The Native Americans have a very special place in the history of this country. We (anglos) essentially committed genocide against the indiginous peoples of this land. We slaughtered and drove them from their homes. We broke treaty after treaty. This land was theirs before it was ours. There's nothing we can do to undo the past, but I do think we can be ultra sensitive to this history. We're not talking about just your run of the mill average racism or bigotry; In fact, I think you could make a strong argument that as bad as slavery was, how we treated the Native Americans might have been a bigger black eye on our country's history.

[Macarthur]

I'm sure all of your patients would appreciate knowing your general view of society. I'd imagine it's pretty good money listening to all of those crazy people.

Where is the heck did you get that 90% stat? If anything, It's more the opposite.

I thought this was interesting...

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/05/29/retired-native-american-chief-would-be-offended-if-redskins-did-change-name/

Anecdotal.

I posted a couple of links to articles a page or two back that address the methodology of that 'poll' that the Redskins keep touting towards their defense.

[Tejastrue]

I just want to see something that says 90% (offended) or even close..

[Tejastrue]

I thought this was humorous..

http://www.naturalnews.com/045618_Native_Americans_state_names_Redskins.html

[LHPfactory]

As a Psychiatrist I can guarantee to you all that EVERYONE is crazy... some just know how to hide it better than others; and secondly... not so sure about this thread. Watch yourselves. Caucasians in the USA have never been forced to move en masse 2000 miles and live in a reservation after having thousands of their friends and family essentially murdered when they had been here 30,000 years longer but just happened to not have the military technology to defend themselves. Houston Lamar is changing their mascot from the Redskins this year too. I honestly don't have a problem with it. If 90%+ of a culture is saying they feel disrespected then as an empathetic human being I respect that and don't feel I have any right to chime in and say "Hey! You're wrong! Deal with it!." Thousands of years of culture trumps 80 years of a football franchise that is in reality just a business there to make money. Less than a century of "tradition" means nothing really comparatively. Everyone complains about "political correctness" but people also abuse it as an excuse for bigotry. To each his own though.

If you use the historical or ansestors comparison then we can all dig back and find atrocities committed against our heritage.
I dont believe any of us have experienced a diaspora . I have Native American dissent as well as Polish. My recent ancestors were devistated by the Germans and Russians then came to America to be the subject of the Aggie jokes outside of Texas....
I dont need a self appointed spokes person to champion a cause for this. Get over it and move on, hyper sensitivity is the worst thing for race and cultural relations!
There is nothing derogatory about Redskins

Look out Alvarado "INDIANS" you are the next target of the anxiety and compulsion driven wind of mass hysteria.

[Farmersfan]

Come again?

This is very difficult to say without sounding racist so give me a little slack:
My point was that you make a lot of assumptions that seem to indicate that minorities in this country have been "HARMED" in some way by discriminatory practices. This would indicate they would be better off right now if they had been someplace without these discriminatory practices. Can you provide evidence of that? Are Latinos in any country around the world better off than those in America? Are blacks in any other part of the world better off than African Americans? The answer to both is no! Not generally. So how have either one of these races been harmed by the American practices of discrimination in the past?

[WOS87]

The following groups have passed resolutions or issued statements regarding their opposition to the name of the Washington NFL team:

Tribes
Affiliated Tribes of Northwest Indians
Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma
Comanche Nation of Oklahoma
The Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation (Washington)
Grand Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians (Michigan)
Hoh Indian Tribe
Inter Tribal Council of Arizona
Inter-Tribal Council of the Five Civilized Tribes
Juaneño Band of Mission Indians (California)
Little River Band of Ottawa Indians (Michigan)
Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band of Pottawatomi Indians, Gun Lake Tribe (Michigan)
Menominee Tribe of Indians (Wisconsin)
Oneida Indian Nation (New York)
Oneida Tribe of Indians of Wisconsin
Navajo Nation Council
Penobscot Nation
Poarch Band of Creek Indians
Samish Indian Nation (Washington)
Sault Ste. Marie Tribe of Chippewa Indians (Michigan)
Shoshone-Bannock Tribes (Idaho)
Standing Rock Sioux Tribe (North Dakota)
The Three Affiliated Tribes of the Fort Berthold Indian Reservation (North Dakota)
United South and Eastern Tribes (USET)

[WOS87]

The four most populous tribes in the US - Navajo, Cherokee, Sioux and Chippewa, have all released statements in opposition of the name.

[caleb_mccaig]

The four most populous tribes in the US - Navajo, Cherokee, Sioux and Chippewa, have all released statements in opposition of the name.

Just curious, but where was the opposition when the team was created?

[cougartino]

Just curious, but where was the opposition when the team was created?

Good question! Here's is MY OPINION. (1)The name was created during a time when information was slow to disseminate. What information that was shared was biased at best. In today's information age, it will be posted what we had for breakfast before it even digests. (2)History shows Native Americans were killed for their land and dehumanized. Even if they objected then, who was taking their complaints seriously?

Look at it this way. Rodney King was not the first black person to be beaten by white police. However, he was the first to have it videotaped for the world to see. This issue over the team's name has gained much traction because we all know about it and are afforded the opportunity to view both sides of the debate. But I suspect this has been going on for some time. We just didn't know about it.

[GrTigers6]

Good question! Here's is MY OPINION. (1)The name was created during a time when information was slow to disseminate. What information that was shared was biased at best. In today's information age, it will be posted what we had for breakfast before it even digests. (2)History shows Native Americans were killed for their land and dehumanized. Even if they objected then, who was taking their complaints seriously?

Look at it this way. Rodney King was not the first black person to be beaten by white police. However, he was the first to have it videotaped for the world to see. This issue over the team's name has gained much traction because we all know about it and are afforded the opportunity to view both sides of the debate. But I suspect this has been going on for some time. We just didn't know about it.
They have had the name for 80+ years. I still don't understand why it all of a sudden is a problem.
The only reason is social media has carried this message and now all of a sudden these people who have no idea about it just take the side against the name. Not saying that everyone opposed to the name is like that, just saying that a vast majority is. People who are opposed and have the knowledge to back that opposition have every right to complain and see what can be done to have it removed. But that is this day and age where someone with a fake video can get everyone up in arms over nothing. Just my 2 cents

[cougartino]

They have had the name for 80+ years. I still don't understand why it all of a sudden is a problem.
The only reason is social media has carried this message and now all of a sudden these people who have no idea about it just take the side against the name. Not saying that everyone opposed to the name is like that, just saying that a vast majority is. People who are opposed and have the knowledge to back that opposition have every right to complain and see what can be done to have it removed. But that is this day and age where someone with a fake video can get everyone up in arms over nothing. Just my 2 cents

I'm convinced this issue is newly reported, but I'm not convinced it's a recently originated issue. Does anyone out there have any concrete evidence when the initial objections over the name were voiced, who voiced them, and what the response(s) was/were?

[Tejastrue]

A long time...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/meet-native-american-grandmother-just-164118382.html;_ylt=AwrBJR6XU6NTw2kA7ybQtDMD

[Macarthur]

This is very difficult to say without sounding racist so give me a little slack:
My point was that you make a lot of assumptions that seem to indicate that minorities in this country have been "HARMED" in some way by discriminatory practices. This would indicate they would be better off right now if they had been someplace without these discriminatory practices. Can you provide evidence of that? Are Latinos in any country around the world better off than those in America? Are blacks in any other part of the world better off than African Americans? The answer to both is no! Not generally. So how have either one of these races been harmed by the American practices of discrimination in the past?

If what you are saying is that while the US was racist, it wasn't the most racist, I guess you have a point. However, I find very little solice in the fact that we were one of the least racist.

Did I mischaracterize your position?

[Tejastrue]

I still think this is about a few hell bent activists with an "axe to grind"..no pun intended. This is just ladened with political overtones.

[Macarthur]

I still think this is about a few hell bent activists with an "axe to grind"..no pun intended. This is just ladened with political overtones.

So the list posted above are all activist with an axe to grind?

[Tejastrue]

If the owner was a Native American this would not be an issue...

for example there are predominantly Native American schools that use the Redskin mascot

[Tejastrue]

I can't say I disagree with this....

http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fandom/post/_/id/18484/tribe-supports-native-american-mascots

[cougartino]

If the owner was a Native American this would not be an issue...

for example there are predominantly Native American schools that use the Redskin mascot

WARNING: SOME MIGHT TAKE THIS POST AS EXTREMELY SENSATIVE:

I can't speak for every black person in America. But I will extrapolate your point a tad bit. If Jay-Z, or any other hip hop star bought an NFL franchise, moved it to New York, and renamed it the Harlem Niggas with a black rapper as the logo, I WOULD BE HIGHLY OFFENDED. I don't like gger or gga. Both are unacceptable.

Again this is MY take.

[Trashman]

Exactly my point. You wouldn't find it offensive. Understand the point?

The pale skin point is silly because paleskins have not been discriminated against.

In case some are having a hard time getting the point, white folks don't get to decide what is racially insensitive and what is not.

Really? You are eat up with the dumb. Everyone has experienced discrimination of one kind or another.

[Macarthur]

Really? You are eat up with the dumb. Everyone has experienced discrimination of one kind or another.

I"m talking about institutional racism. That has not been an issue for white males. Period.

Now, you can find instances of Irish being treated poorly (my heritage), but not on the scale of what was done to African Americans and Native Americans. And that doesns't even start to scratch the surface about S. Africa and what the white man did to the indiginous peoples of Australia.

[Macarthur]

I can't say I disagree with this....

http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fandom/post/_/id/18484/tribe-supports-native-american-mascots

Yes, it's not difficult. It's really a pretty simple concept. the term REDSKINS is what is the issue; not the use of Native American mascots, in general.

[Macarthur]

Really? You are eat up with the dumb. Everyone has experienced discrimination of one kind or another.

The more I think about this post in context, the more dumbfounded I am. Are you sure you want to stand by that post?

[Farmersfan]

If what you are saying is that while the US was racist, it wasn't the most racist, I guess you have a point. However, I find very little solice in the fact that we were one of the least racist.

Did I mischaracterize your position?




Every possible thing I could say to illustrate my point would be viewed as racist by this overly sensitive society we now live in. So without being specific let me just suggest you look at the world as a whole and see what race leads the way in human development across the globe and then ask yourself if white Americans truly held minority race's development down or did they in actually allow others to ride their coat tails to a level of development that elevated them above their peers in every other part of the world???? There is a reason why immigration numbers to this country are off the charts now and always have been. Could it be people from other parts of the world desire to come here just so they can experience all those discriminatory practices that the demon white race practices here? :rolleyes:

[Farmersfan]

So the list posted above are all activist with an axe to grind?


I think the point is that this agenda has been waved in their faces for a long, long time. Just like indoctrination into religious beliefs a lot of these people could have been convinced over time that they are SUPPOSED to be offended by this even if they weren't originally. I think the original polls all indicated very few Native Americans felt any offense by this. We were even told by someone that their personal experience from a reservation was that those Native Americans picked the Redskins as their team and wore the jerseys and caps.

[Macarthur]

Every possible thing I could say to illustrate my point would be viewed as racist by this overly sensitive society we now live in. So without being specific let me just suggest you look at the world as a whole and see what race leads the way in human development across the globe and then ask yourself if white Americans truly held minority race's development down or did they in actually allow others to ride their coat tails to a level of development that elevated them above their peers in every other part of the world???? There is a reason why immigration numbers to this country are off the charts now and always have been. Could it be people from other parts of the world desire to come here just so they can experience all those discriminatory practices that the demon white race practices here? :rolleyes:

There's no question that the anglo race has produced a lot of good, but that doesn't negate the evil, either. Same with America. Some great things about this country and I'm very grateful that I was born here. However, we can't close our eyes to the wrongs we have committed either. That doesn't lessen the good; in fact, I think it shows even more how great America is when we can look at something like this issue and say, "You know, we were wrong to use this term. We're sorry and lets change it and more forward."

[Macarthur]

I think the point is that this agenda has been waved in their faces for a long, long time. Just like indoctrination into religious beliefs a lot of these people could have been convinced over time that they are SUPPOSED to be offended by this even if they weren't originally. I think the original polls all indicated very few Native Americans felt any offense by this. We were even told by someone that their personal experience from a reservation was that those Native Americans picked the Redskins as their team and wore the jerseys and caps.

Anecdotal. I don't put much stock in personal experiences.

There was a poll and I posted a couple of links a page or two back that show that poll was very flawed. I think if anyone believes anywhere close to 90% of Native American's are okay with the term Redskins, they are fooling themselves. YOur above comment is extremely dubious because you are basically dismissing all of the tribes and organizations that have an issue with the name while trying to give creedence to someone's anecdotal experience on a message board. You're much smarter than that, FF.

[Macarthur]

And I think we all need to acknowledge that this issue, Native Americans, is a very different issue, which has a very unique history.

[Cam]

There's no question that the anglo race has produced a lot of good, but that doesn't negate the evil, either. Same with America. Some great things about this country and I'm very grateful that I was born here. However, we can't close our eyes to the wrongs we have committed either. That doesn't lessen the good; in fact, I think it shows even more how great America is when we can look at something like this issue and say, "You know, we were wrong to use this term. We're sorry and lets change it and more forward."

good points Mac...for sure plenty of evil too!....case in point....the Latins created the burrito and quesadilla....both simply elegant foods and eagerly consumed by the masses at places like Taco Bell.....then them crazy white boy Taco Bell executives screwed everything up by coming up with the revolting QUESARITO!!!.....I almost threw up when I saw that commercial!......My boys and I just looked at each and said, "Quesa-what?":doh::ack!:.....ya'll sunsbitches will eat anything!!!:D

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/que.png (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/que.png.html)

...this is all Greendawg's fault!....

[Cam]

....Look, just change the dang logo to this:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/fred.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/fred.jpg.html)
The Fredskins would be an alright name.....then Washington could use Dino the stupid pet dinosaur as their mascot!!...Imagine the sales of stuffed Dino's to the little ones..."Daddy Daddy I want a Dino!! I want a Dino!"..."Shut up dammit, you'll get nothing!".....
Of course, the more I think about it...this is probably a bad idea...Barney Rubble's descendants would probably get butt hurt about omitting their family.....

Now I'm hearin' Mr. Snyder is threatening to change the logo to this:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/whisk.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/whisk.jpg.html)
Not only that, Jack Daniel's would be the main beverage sold at the stadium!!

Some folks are suggesting this logo:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/potato.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/potato.jpg.html)
But Mr. Snyder don't want to upset the potato farmers in Idaho....saying, "I've got cousins there!"....

another thought was since this was RGIII's team, why not change the logo to this:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/rg.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/rg.jpg.html)
.....hmmm....not sure the home town homies are gonna go for a black man with a feather in his hair!....they would prefer Mr. Snyder take his team and call it this:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/crac.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/crac.jpg.html)
....that's all good and fine...but the blue cap has gotta go!....dang thing don't color coordinate with the uni!!.....

There is one last option....good thing is this logo and team name has nothin' to do with skin color....well sort of.....
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/fore.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/fore.jpg.html)
But Mr. Snyder is still concerned he's gonna upset the Jewish community in some weird way.....Plus, he might also upset the entire European and South American continents!! Cause them folks say: "If I was born with it, it ain't comin' off!"........:vrycnfsd:

this is all Greendawg's fault!.....

[PhiI C]

BE POLITICALLY CORRECT!!

:flaming:

[Cam]

BE POLITICALLY CORRECT!!

:flaming:

....Huh?.....what's that mean??....:vrycnfsd:

[Farmersfan]

There's no question that the anglo race has produced a lot of good, but that doesn't negate the evil, either. Same with America. Some great things about this country and I'm very grateful that I was born here. However, we can't close our eyes to the wrongs we have committed either. That doesn't lessen the good; in fact, I think it shows even more how great America is when we can look at something like this issue and say, "You know, we were wrong to use this term. We're sorry and lets change it and more forward."



We come around full circle again! And you argue like a presuppositional apologist Macarthur. You present your point as if it's already a foregone conclusion that using this term is wrong. That hasn't even come close to being established............ A group of people who have been cheerleadered ( is this a word?) into being offended hardly proves offensiveness. Especially in the face of so many other surveys that show these same people weren't offended previously...........................For years now activits have been putting ideas out there like "Indian support for the name is really a classic case of internalized oppression". (from Indian activist Suzan Shown Harjo). Harjo was also the person who rejected the 2004 survey when 90% of Native Americans surveyed stated they weren't offended because those people weren't indian enough or weren't the right kind of indian... It's a political agenda and nothing else.

[pirate4state]

....Look, just change the dang logo to this:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/fred.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/fred.jpg.html)
The Fredskins would be an alright name.....then Washington could use Dino the stupid pet dinosaur as their mascot!!...Imagine the sales of stuffed Dino's to the little ones..."Daddy Daddy I want a Dino!! I want a Dino!"..."Shut up dammit, you'll get nothing!".....
Of course, the more I think about it...this is probably a bad idea...Barney Rubble's descendants would probably get butt hurt about omitting their family.....

Now I'm hearin' Mr. Snyder is threatening to change the logo to this:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/whisk.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/whisk.jpg.html)
Not only that, Jack Daniel's would be the main beverage sold at the stadium!!

Some folks are suggesting this logo:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/potato.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/potato.jpg.html)
But Mr. Snyder don't want to upset the potato farmers in Idaho....saying, "I've got cousins there!"....

another thought was since this was RGIII's team, why not change the logo to this:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/rg.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/rg.jpg.html)
.....hmmm....not sure the home town homies are gonna go for a black man with a feather in his hair!....they would prefer Mr. Snyder take his team and call it this:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/crac.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/crac.jpg.html)
....that's all good and fine...but the blue cap has gotta go!....dang thing don't color coordinate with the uni!!.....

There is one last option....good thing is this logo and team name has nothin' to do with skin color....well sort of.....
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j347/burnet2/fore.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/burnet2/media/fore.jpg.html)
But Mr. Snyder is still concerned he's gonna upset the Jewish community in some weird way.....Plus, he might also upset the entire European and South American continents!! Cause them folks say: "If I was born with it, it ain't comin' off!"........:vrycnfsd:

this is all Greendawg's fault!.....

wow.........................

[Farmersfan]

Anecdotal. I don't put much stock in personal experiences.

There was a poll and I posted a couple of links a page or two back that show that poll was very flawed. I think if anyone believes anywhere close to 90% of Native American's are okay with the term Redskins, they are fooling themselves. YOur above comment is extremely dubious because you are basically dismissing all of the tribes and organizations that have an issue with the name while trying to give creedence to someone's anecdotal experience on a message board. You're much smarter than that, FF.


Every poll is flawed if it doesn't serve the purposes needed Mac. And you are projecting your personal feeling onto the entire native American population and then accusing me of saying dubious things. The FACTS are we have not had a double blind study done of 90% of the Indian population. I have an idea. I have a ex-girlfriend from high school who is a Naturopathic Physician at Medicine bow Natural Health in Wyoming. She is married to a true Native American and has lived with the tribe since graduating from Bastyr University. I will message her to get her opinion of the general Native American thoughts on this subject. I'll get back with you.

[Trashman]

With race baiters, it's always about money.

[Rocket Dad]

Leave the nicknames alone, they are just that. I have an Irish heritage - should I raise sand and demand that the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame change their nickname because it implies

Irishmen are fighters and heathens ? Really ?

[Macarthur]

Every poll is flawed if it doesn't serve the purposes needed Mac. And you are projecting your personal feeling onto the entire native American population and then accusing me of saying dubious things. The FACTS are we have not had a double blind study done of 90% of the Indian population. I have an idea. I have a ex-girlfriend from high school who is a Naturopathic Physician at Medicine bow Natural Health in Wyoming. She is married to a true Native American and has lived with the tribe since graduating from Bastyr University. I will message her to get her opinion of the general Native American thoughts on this subject. I'll get back with you.

Every poll isn't flawed. Now you're just being obtuse. It's true that no single poll is perfect, but you are not being reasonable about this.

[Macarthur]

Leave the nicknames alone, they are just that. I have an Irish heritage - should I raise sand and demand that the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame change their nickname because it implies

Irishmen are fighters and heathens ? Really ?

:( .....

[Tejastrue]

I"m talking about institutional racism. That has not been an issue for white males. Period.

Now, you can find instances of Irish being treated poorly (my heritage), but not on the scale of what was done to African Americans and Native Americans. And that doesns't even start to scratch the surface about S. Africa and what the white man did to the indiginous peoples of Australia.

You can throw in the Spaniards and their conquests before any of this...basically wiped out a whole civilization.

[Cam]

You can throw in the Spaniards and their conquests before any of this...basically wiped out a whole civilization.

yea Tejastrue...but it was actually the Germans fault this even happened!.....After the Germans introduced the accordian to the Spaniards, the musical world got a little crazy in Spain.....the first versions of Tejano music surfaced with some crazy accordian riffs that drove future explorers like Columbus and Cortes a little batty......especially Cortes, who would only listen to the music of the early classical composers...Cortes even claimed the accordian was the instrument of the devil....The final straw for Cortes was when the Spanish band, La Lumbre (The Fire), released their second album entitled, "Carretera Al Infierno" (Highway To Hell).....Cortes was so disgusted he loaded up his ships and set sail....and the rest as they say, is history!!!......At least that's what I was learned in school....:vrycnfsd:

[Tejastrue]

Okay...so to you, of Hispanic descent (in Texas) that just might understand and appreciate these lyrics, I dedicate this song...not to mention..this boy of German descent can sing...lol!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eLq7_2wLMg4

[Cam]

Okay...so to you, of Hispanic descent (in Texas) that just might understand and appreciate these lyrics, I dedicate this song...not to mention..this boy of German descent can sing...lol!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eLq7_2wLMg4

:2thumbsup....Mr. Crabb has got some soulful chops for sure!..Great song and great version of it by him......He reminds me a little of one of my favorite Christian singers, Mark Hall of Casting Crowns....I must someday see them in concert.
If you don't know Casting Crowns, you must!......as you may or may not know Tejas, I'm a big music nut...all kinds of music...A couple of my favorite Christian acts I've seen live is Michael W. Smith, Jars of Clay, Three Crosses......Always wanted to see Steven Curtis Chapman but never have......

Here is Casting Crowns:

A tribute to our soldiers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbRGksthTHQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ype1xE0wzsg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTJ8zAbafB8

[cougartino]

Leave the nicknames alone, they are just that. I have an Irish heritage - should I raise sand and demand that the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame change their nickname because it implies

Irishmen are fighters and heathens ? Really ?

Only you can answer that question. But if you felt the name was offensive and should be changed, you should be afforded the right to make your thoughts known and do whatever you can legally to bring about change.

[WOS87]

Leave the nicknames alone, they are just that. I have an Irish heritage - should I raise sand and demand that the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame change their nickname because it implies

Irishmen are fighters and heathens ? Really ?

I'm pretty sure if a team in England named themselves the Fighting Irish and had a Leprechaun as their mascot (which matches Notre Dame exactly by the way) there would be an uproar with probably a few terrorist attacks from the IRA given the 1 million Irish that died in the potato famine due to lack of any help from England and the persistently ongoing battle between the Catholics and Protestants. But the English would counter... those Irishmen are tough fighters and held strong so we are respecting them.... seriously? In the US... the Irish were never persecuted so no... that's not equivalent. It's all about context, not just a name. I dare you to go up to someone in Dublin and call them a Leprechaun.

[maestro]

Would you walk up to a Native American and call him a Redskin to his face?

If not, there is your answer!!

And I was 99% in favor of the name before that example was given to me

[cougartino]

Would you walk up to a Native American and call him a Redskin to his face?

If not, there is your answer!!

And I was 99% in favor of the name before that example was given to me

As those old ladies say in southern missionary Baptist churches, "Well!"

[Macarthur]

Would you walk up to a Native American and call him a Redskin to his face?

If not, there is your answer!!

And I was 99% in favor of the name before that example was given to me

:clap: ...

[Tejastrue]

I hope this makes sense to most...

There are hundreds of words people find offensive and most you would not say to someones face without expecting repercussions. I can't go back and change time. I am not responsible for what our forefathers did. For me, growing up..redskin was never considered a derogatory word unlike the word Cougartino so graciously pointed out. The name redskin, to a certain degree, was respected and I guess somewhat cool. As a young lad, I was in awe of the ways of the Native culture. My grandmother (on my mother's side) was 3/4 Cherokee and my grandfather was of a strong Scottish descent. For myself...I don't claim to be part Native American, part Scottish, and so on..but I love, respect, and appreciate the lineage I came from... but I was born here..I'm an American. If the cultures/races would stop trying to own specifics words..maybe things could change... because if you want it to go away.. you just can't continue to use these words as a badge of honour... or use it for or against what it represents.