Tim Tebow Law

[Sville]

The TTL passed in the TX Senate today and moves onto the house. It allows home schooled kids to play public school athletics for the district they reside in. What do you think?

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/texas-senate-approves-something-called-tim-tebow-bill-212158312.html

[Manso/V8]

I don't like it.

[Old Tiger]

Just another way to kill the public education system in Texas.

[Macarthur]

I'm a thumbs down.

[NHSBulldog75]

It seems that our sports facilities and equipment are good enough for the home schoolers, but our excellent teachers and the knowledge they can impart to children is not. The Texas Legislature is once again trying to undermine Texas public schools.....charter schools, vouchers and now this. If they want to be fair to the kids, stop allowing these issues from undermining our schools.

[vet93]

How does alllowing students to participate in extracurricular activities undermine the education of kids in public schools? It seems to me that it helps. If you have the same amount of taxable entities and individuals supporting public schools ( meaning dollars earmarked for public schools), with a decreasing number of kids to educate due to their exercising other options such as charter schools, homeschooling etc...then you actually have a much better teacher to student ratio which is one of the most important aspects of a quality education.

[Tejastrue]

I think I'd be more concerned with the private schools wanting in.

Please enlighten me people as to why this is a bad thing? Would it help if they changed it to the Jason Taylor bill? ;)

Matt, do you have an opinion on this?

[cowboyandchrist]

How does alllowing students to participate in extracurricular activities undermine the education of kids in public schools? It seems to me that it helps. If you have the same amount of taxable entities and individuals supporting public schools ( meaning dollars earmarked for public schools), with a decreasing number of kids to educate due to their exercising other options such as charter schools, homeschooling etc...then you actually have a much better teacher to student ratio which is one of the most important aspects of a quality education.

Great statement and I agree, what difference does it make if the kid is home schooled or is in public school. Oh and please don't play the grade card you know the no pass no play. Do a little research and you will see very few of the good players ever fail when the sport they are good in is being played.

[Macarthur]

Other than the perception that these folks don't think the public schools are good enough to educated their kids (except w regards to sports), one of the big issues I see is that private schools and home schoolers don't have to live b the same rules as public schools would. For example, amount of practice time.

[Sville]

Personally I don't see a problem with it, since the kids would have to play in the district they reside their parents are already paying school taxes. They would have to abide by the UIL rules since they would be participating with a UIL school. There would be a lot of details to iron out, like which school does a kid participate with in a multi-school ISD, how would this affect enrollment counting, would the home school kids be subject to the same test standards (this would be sticky point for most home school parents).

[Macarthur]

They would have to abide by the UIL rules since they would be participating with a UIL school.

Are you sure about this?

[ronwx5x]

How does alllowing students to participate in extracurricular activities undermine the education of kids in public schools? It seems to me that it helps. If you have the same amount of taxable entities and individuals supporting public schools ( meaning dollars earmarked for public schools), with a decreasing number of kids to educate due to their exercising other options such as charter schools, homeschooling etc...then you actually have a much better teacher to student ratio which is one of the most important aspects of a quality education.

In Texas, state funds are allotted to schools on a per-student basis. If people don't attend a school yet are still allowed to participate in extra-curricular activities, the schools receive no additional funds yet have to support more participants. Sounds like lose/lose to me. This is not true just in football but any extra-curricular activity. At least that's my understanding. Anyone have a better explanation?

[Weebe]

Oh and please don't play the grade card you know the no pass no play. Do a little research and you will see very few of the good players ever fail when the sport they are good in is being played.

Link the data you have and I'll take a look at it.

[Macarthur]

Link the data you have and I'll take a look at it.

Be careful, Weebe, if you have the expectation for people actually have some basis for their 'opinion', you will be vilified on this board and called a contrarian.

[Weebe]

In Texas, state funds are allotted to schools on a per-student basis. If people don't attend a school yet are still allowed to participate in extra-curricular activities, the schools receive no additional funds yet have to support more participants. Sounds like lose/lose to me. This is not true just in football but any extra-curricular activity. At least that's my understanding. Anyone have a better explanation?

You are mostly correct. A school district's operating funds are made up of both state supplied funds and local funds from ad valorem taxes.

The "Robin Hood" law from the 90's requires more wealthy districts to turn over the remainder of their ad valorem taxes after the taxes collected meet a certain threshold. The state then distributes school funds on a per student basis to all districts.

I think the poorer districts get more per student.

[Weebe]

Be careful, Weebe, if you have the expectation for people actually have some basis for their 'opinion', you will be vilified on this board and called a contrarian.

Well, he specifically asked that we research it. I couldn't find any data to back up his claims, so I wanted to know where his "research" led him.

[movethechain]

Do the homeschooling parents still pay public school taxes. I keep hearing about voucher systems and I'm not up to speed how that works. Do we have some kind of voucher system in Texas that allows homeschool parents to avoid paying school taxes to the local district?

[Macarthur]

Do the homeschooling parents still pay public school taxes. I keep hearing about voucher systems and I'm not up to speed how that works. Do we have some kind of voucher system in Texas that allows homeschool parents to avoid paying school taxes to the local district?

Yes, they still pay taxes. I don't know the answer to the voucher thing.

[Phantom Stang]

Personally I don't see a problem with it, since the kids would have to play in the district they reside their parents are already paying school taxes. They would have to abide by the UIL rules since they would be participating with a UIL school. There would be a lot of details to iron out, like which school does a kid participate with in a multi-school ISD, how would this affect enrollment counting, would the home school kids be subject to the same test standards (this would be sticky point for most home school parents).
Yeah, let the Home Schooled kids participate in extra curricular activities. Also, since the parents that send their kids to Public Schools pay the same amount of taxes, make it so their kids can participate without having to worry about things like making good grades on their daily assignments, or even turning them in for that matter.:rolleyes:

[Tejastrue]

This dates back a few years but a good read

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/30/home-schooling-outstanding-results-national-tests/

[Aesculus gilmus]

What would be wrong with home schoolers forming their own leagues and renting stadiums for whenever they needed them?

It seems to me these individuals are "self-segregating" away from the larger society, which is their right. So they need to have their own league the same way there was the PVIL before integration, even though those students were not voluntarily segregating.

I've heard from oldtimers that not all of the PVIL members even wanted to integrate, though. Of course, these may be the same types of people who'll tell you the slaves were very sad when they were let go because they loved their masters so much.

When I was growing up, PVIL member Bruce High School played their games at Buckeye Stadium on Saturday nights. I'm not sure they had to pay anything to do so. Maybe not, since they were a public school also. I don't see any problem with allowing a league of home schoolers to play at Buckeye Stadium for a nominal fee on Saturday nights, if there are enough home schooling athletes in our county to field a football team (there may not be).

[bigwood33]

I think the poorer districts get more per student.

This isn't the case. As an example, Prosper gets over 3k more per student than Whitesboro does. There is a lawsuit pending to level the playing field on funding.

[Saggy Aggie]

Are there any homeschooled kids that are decent athletes?

Every home schooled kid I've met was socially awkward and unathletic lol

[Cowboy_Up]

We home school our 8 yr old daughter. We made that decision after sending two older children thru the public school system. Our oldest graduated in the top 5 and our next child graduates this year, 2nd in class. Education has always been a huge part of our family ethos.
Why the decision to home school? Because we watched our children start school with a thirst for learning and watch that thirst get squashed under the guise of fairness and keeping all the kids at the same level. Our public schools are geared toward advancing ALL the kids on to the next level. So, you get issues like a bunch of football players flunking when they reach a certain grade because they have a teacher who actually expects them to know how to communicate and write a proper research paper. When she flunks kids, she gets shredded, but what about all the teachers before her who who just passed on the kids instead of teaching? And the reality is, its not really the teacher's fault as they are not expected to educate, they are expected to get kids to pass the TAKS or STAR or whatever measure is used. Our high school dropped calculus because they decided not many kids really needed to learn that level of math (translation: it is not part of the TAKS test) We no longer have AP algebra in 8th grade because not enough kids would take the class.

My daughter is part of a home school co-op made up of families from Vic ISD, Ind ISD, Edna ISD, & Ganado ISD. They number about 40 and get together a couple of times a week to do activities and special studies. Guess who makes up over half the group? Former teacher from those same ISDs who quit to home school their kids.
Home schooling isn't about destroying the Texas Public schools, it is a reaction to the public schools and their focus on the lowest common denominator. Just as in athletics, some kids have more talent then others. We all bemoan the "give every kid a medal" philosophy, yet that is the exact philosophy of the Texas classroom. Competition is not just on the ball field. Our kids have to compete in a global setting and dumbing them down so kids can pass the TAKS is no different an approach then telling the baseball pitcher that he needs to keep it under 80 mph so everyone has a chance to make contact, or telling the D1 O-lineman he can't pancake block because he is larger then his opponent and might hurt someone.

If we are going to compete, then lets compete and turn them loose so they can reach the highest possible level. But we don't do that with our public education and if we treated football in the same way you all would be screaming to high heaven.

[Aesculus gilmus]

Actually, all these tests you claim "dumbed down" everyone were demanded by business people who think the tests "smarten up" everyone.

It was George W. Bush who used to go around saying how proud he was of the "accountability" he had brought to the public schools with "No Child Left Behind" and the other testing measures he had pushed even before that when he was Governor.

The Texas Association of Business is THE MOST VEHEMENT ADVOCATE of not only the tests we have now, but even MORE RIGOROUS ones.

"What we've got here is failure to communicate," to quote the old movie line.

You are from Edna, so I will say (at the risk of being not "PC") that I think we just reached the point of no return in terms of the survivability of the Texas public school system. Read the story linked below. I will not tell you why I think this, but you can probably figure it out.

http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/hispanics-now-majority-texas-schools-politicians-take-note

[Cowboy_Up]

No child left behind left millions mediocre.

I'm not sure why you brought politics into this as I don't see a big difference between what Bush wanted with no child left behind and what the teacher's unions want with outlawing any form of education other than what they deliver.

When my daughter gets together with other home schooled kids, they don't play with snakes or learn to talk in tongues, they study art (Picasso is their artist of the month), they conduct science projects that involve learning about electricity and solar energy, and they plant gardens and study how plants react to different irrigation and fertility practices and varying hours of sunlight. You can teach a kid about photosynthesis, or you can let them experience it so when they dig in at the higher academic level they have a practical understanding of the science. These programs were developed by former teachers with masters degrees in education who were not allowed to 'teach" when employed in the public schools.

We have many great teachers and I have close friends on our local school board. They understand the problem, but can only do so much. What is happening with our schools is not guided by what we do at the local level. We have gone overboard in the interest of fairness and I do not think it a reaction to any growing minority.

Having said all that, we are uncertain about the future as we want our younger children to experience the positives of being part of a team and competing together in quest of a common goal. All our children are athletes and our oldest still competes at the collegiate level. It is not an easy decision to remove a child from the "norm". But it has turned out to be a great decision and one we are very happy we made. We expect that once she gets older she will return to the public schools so she can have that important experience, and learn more then what might be taught in a book or classroom. But during these formative years, we believe we have absolutely make the best decision.

[scrub c]

Are there any homeschooled kids that are decent athletes?
Every home schooled kid I've met was socially awkward and unathletic lol

thats funny, but I think thats prolly just around WC... maybe not.

I'm not sure if the team sports would be affected much by this. I can see an impact on Golf, Tennis, CC, and to some degree Track & Field... (the individual sports/events)

[Aesculus gilmus]

"I'm not sure why you brought politics into this ..."

Mainly because it is politicians backed by businessmen who demanded all the tests. There was never a groundswell of parents or teachers demanding this. Actually, this all began with a Dallas billionaire named Ross Perot nearly 30 years ago. I'll never forget the outrage of our local teachers when he got Gov. Mark White to demand that a teacher competency test be enacted. Mark did as he was told by the billionaire, as is usually the case, and soon became known as "One-Term Mark."

[Macarthur]

We home school our 8 yr old daughter. We made that decision after sending two older children thru the public school system. Our oldest graduated in the top 5 and our next child graduates this year, 2nd in class. Education has always been a huge part of our family ethos.
Why the decision to home school? Because we watched our children start school with a thirst for learning and watch that thirst get squashed under the guise of fairness and keeping all the kids at the same level. Our public schools are geared toward advancing ALL the kids on to the next level.


Curious, your first two children were obviously very successful. Did things change so drastically that you felt you needed to make this move?


So, you get issues like a bunch of football players flunking when they reach a certain grade because they have a teacher who actually expects them to know how to communicate and write a proper research paper. When she flunks kids, she gets shredded, but what about all the teachers before her who who just passed on the kids instead of teaching? And the reality is, its not really the teacher's fault as they are not expected to educate, they are expected to get kids to pass the TAKS or STAR or whatever measure is used. Our high school dropped calculus because they decided not many kids really needed to learn that level of math (translation: it is not part of the TAKS test) We no longer have AP algebra in 8th grade because not enough kids would take the class.

My daughter is part of a home school co-op made up of families from Vic ISD, Ind ISD, Edna ISD, & Ganado ISD. They number about 40 and get together a couple of times a week to do activities and special studies. Guess who makes up over half the group? Former teacher from those same ISDs who quit to home school their kids.
Home schooling isn't about destroying the Texas Public schools, it is a reaction to the public schools and their focus on the lowest common denominator. Just as in athletics, some kids have more talent then others. We all bemoan the "give every kid a medal" philosophy, yet that is the exact philosophy of the Texas classroom. Competition is not just on the ball field. Our kids have to compete in a global setting and dumbing them down so kids can pass the TAKS is no different an approach then telling the baseball pitcher that he needs to keep it under 80 mph so everyone has a chance to make contact, or telling the D1 O-lineman he can't pancake block because he is larger then his opponent and might hurt someone.

If we are going to compete, then lets compete and turn them loose so they can reach the highest possible level. But we don't do that with our public education and if we treated football in the same way you all would be screaming to high heaven.


Look, I don't think anyone has any issue with homeschooling. If folks want to do that, great.

The issue is that these folks have made the decision that public school is not right for them, but they want an exception when it comes to competing in our UIL competitions. I think that's wrong. It's like they want their cake and eat it too. YOu only want to participate in the things you want but not have to deal with any of the other negative stuff that everyone else does.

[scrub c]

The issue is that these folks have made the decision that public school is not right for them, but they want an exception when it comes to competing in our UIL competitions. I think that's wrong. It's like they want their cake and eat it too. YOu only want to participate in the things you want but not have to deal with any of the other negative stuff that everyone else does.

I agree

[Cowboy_Up]

Curious, your first two children were obviously very successful. Did things change so drastically that you felt you needed to make this move?...

Look, I don't think anyone has any issue with homeschooling. If folks want to do that, great.
The issue is that these folks have made the decision that public school is not right for them, but they want an exception when it comes to competing in our UIL competitions. I think that's wrong. It's like they want their cake and eat it too. YOu only want to participate in the things you want but not have to deal with any of the other negative stuff that everyone else does.

We made the move because we felt that once our kids reached a certain level, call it a pre determined plateau defined by the state as "educated" (passing the TAKS with high scores), that the school no longer challenged them to learn more, to reach for a higher level. This is a football website for the most part, so think of it like this. Do we celebrate teams and coaches who just participate, who go to practice, give a decent effort, and are moderately competitive? Or do we celebrate teams and coaches that push the limits, that believe they can not only compete but win the big prize? I believe we want our athletes and teams to dream big, to not live by any self imposed limits but to strive to be something special. We have some teachers that feel that same way and encourage their students to strive for greatness, but we have too many government educators who are really only concerned with making sure every kid gets by. Do well on the TAKS and manage your drop out levels and you are an exemplary ISD. Lets just say I think it takes more then that to reach exemplary status. I will also say this because my stance has been termed elitist by some. I believe that lowering standards so everyone can get by hurts those it means to help. It assumes that certain students with certain backgrounds are not capable of greatness. And I do not believe that to be the case.

As far as home schooled kids competing on school teams, I am not in favor of that. They're are plenty of athletic competitions for individual athletes who wish to compete...golf, tennis, swimming, track. If they want to be on a team and represent a school then I believe they should attend that school which is exactly why we believe our children will attend a public high school.

[Macarthur]

We made the move because we felt that once our kids reached a certain level, call it a pre determined plateau defined by the state as "educated" (passing the TAKS with high scores), that the school no longer challenged them to learn more, to reach for a higher level. This is a football website for the most part, so think of it like this. Do we celebrate teams and coaches who just participate, who go to practice, give a decent effort, and are moderately competitive? Or do we celebrate teams and coaches that push the limits, that believe they can not only compete but win the big prize? I believe we want our athletes and teams to dream big, to not live by any self imposed limits but to strive to be something special. We have some teachers that feel that same way and encourage their students to strive for greatness, but we have too many government educators who are really only concerned with making sure every kid gets by. Do well on the TAKS and manage your drop out levels and you are an exemplary ISD. Lets just say I think it takes more then that to reach exemplary status. I will also say this because my stance has been termed elitist by some. I believe that lowering standards so everyone can get by hurts those it means to help. It assumes that certain students with certain backgrounds are not capable of greatness. And I do not believe that to be the case.

Understood. I don't disagree with anything you've said here. And I don't sense any elitist attitude in what you've said.


As far as home schooled kids competing on school teams, I am not in favor of that. They're are plenty of athletic competitions for individual athletes who wish to compete...golf, tennis, swimming, track. If they want to be on a team and represent a school then I believe they should attend that school which is exactly why we believe our children will attend a public high school.

Yep.