The Problem with Society

[Bullaholic]

I might start a backlash of epic proportions here but a moment of silence does not serve the purposes for the religious segment. Religion by it's very nature requires recruitment and the "spreading of the word". No matter how much it is denied on here or at other venues the true purpose of public prayer for a Christian is to expose others to their beliefs. We all know this to be true. Like I have shown in the proceeding pages that the justifications used for wanting a public prayer could be accomplished by other means that does not infringe on other's rights to not be forced to be exposed to it. But exposure is ultimately the purpose of it all. Ever wonder why the school prayer debate is probably the hottest topic around? I believe it is solely due the fact that religious leaders recognize the urgency in getting indoctrination in early in a kids life. There is a rational reason for the existence of so many religiously based schools. Christian schools, protestant schools, Muslim school, Catholic schools, Methodist schools and every other possible denomination you can think of. Millions of children are starving to death all over the planet and yet the workforce of God is spending Billions of dollars on school systems that they can control rather than feeding the children. Indoctrination is given priority over defending and protecting. We can find thousands of examples that show that the existence of the Church has been elevated far, far, far above the actual work of God as required in the Bible. But that too is another discussion.

Farmer, your dislike of all things religious overshadows any logic there may be in your posts, just like in your Romo posts. I disagree totally with your assessment of the purpose behind prayers at athletic events. The verbage of every such prayer I have ever heard does nothing but ask God's blessing for the health and safety of the players and fans. I have never heard any invitations to join any church yet.

[44INAROW]

Farmer, your dislike of all things religious overshadows any logic there may be in your posts, just like in your Romo posts. I disagree totally with your assessment of the purpose behind prayers at athletic events. The verbage of every such prayer I have ever heard does nothing but ask God's blessing for the health and safety of the players and fans. I have never heard any invitations to join any church yet.

nice reply Bull...

[MUSTANG69]

I might start a backlash of epic proportions here but a moment of silence does not serve the purposes for the religious segment. Religion by it's very nature requires recruitment and the "spreading of the word". No matter how much it is denied on here or at other venues the true purpose of public prayer for a Christian is to expose others to their beliefs. We all know this to be true. Like I have shown in the proceeding pages that the justifications used for wanting a public prayer could be accomplished by other means that does not infringe on other's rights to not be forced to be exposed to it. But exposure is ultimately the purpose of it all. Ever wonder why the school prayer debate is probably the hottest topic around? I believe it is solely due the fact that religious leaders recognize the urgency in getting indoctrination in early in a kids life. There is a rational reason for the existence of so many religiously based schools. Christian schools, protestant schools, Muslim school, Catholic schools, Methodist schools and every other possible denomination you can think of. Millions of children are starving to death all over the planet and yet the workforce of God is spending Billions of dollars on school systems that they can control rather than feeding the children. Indoctrination is given priority over defending and protecting. We can find thousands of examples that show that the existence of the Church has been elevated far, far, far above the actual work of God as required in the Bible. But that too is another discussion.

First you promote the idea of a moment of silence. Somebody halfway agrees with you and you go ballistic. You are either arguing for the sake of arguing or you have a very big dislike of religion of any kind.

[bobcat1]

Look up Contrarian. It will shed light on whom you are dealing with. ;)

[Macarthur]

You are either arguing for the sake of arguing or...

I get accused of this all the time and it frustrates me to no end. If you don't agree with someone's point, then make a counterpoint. This type of response is not a thoughtful response when someone has laid out a very lengthy, reasoned comment.

[pancho villa]

You are a strange guy!!!! Farmerfan

[pancho villa]

I might start a backlash of epic proportions here but a moment of silence does not serve the purposes for the religious segment. Religion by it's very nature requires recruitment and the "spreading of the word". No matter how much it is denied on here or at other venues the true purpose of public prayer for a Christian is to expose others to their beliefs. We all know this to be true. Like I have shown in the proceeding pages that the justifications used for wanting a public prayer could be accomplished by other means that does not infringe on other's rights to not be forced to be exposed to it. But exposure is ultimately the purpose of it all. Ever wonder why the school prayer debate is probably the hottest topic around? I believe it is solely due the fact that religious leaders recognize the urgency in getting indoctrination in early in a kids life. There is a rational reason for the existence of so many religiously based schools. Christian schools, protestant schools, Muslim school, Catholic schools, Methodist schools and every other possible denomination you can think of. Millions of children are starving to death all over the planet and yet the workforce of God is spending Billions of dollars on school systems that they can control rather than feeding the children. Indoctrination is given priority over defending and protecting. We can find thousands of examples that show that the existence of the Church has been elevated far, far, far above the actual work of God as required in the Bible. But that too is another discussion.

You are a strange guy!!!!

[Saggy Aggie]

I might start a backlash of epic proportions here but a moment of silence does not serve the purposes for the religious segment. Religion by it's very nature requires recruitment and the "spreading of the word". No matter how much it is denied on here or at other venues the true purpose of public prayer for a Christian is to expose others to their beliefs. We all know this to be true. Like I have shown in the proceeding pages that the justifications used for wanting a public prayer could be accomplished by other means that does not infringe on other's rights to not be forced to be exposed to it. But exposure is ultimately the purpose of it all. Ever wonder why the school prayer debate is probably the hottest topic around? I believe it is solely due the fact that religious leaders recognize the urgency in getting indoctrination in early in a kids life. There is a rational reason for the existence of so many religiously based schools. Christian schools, protestant schools, Muslim school, Catholic schools, Methodist schools and every other possible denomination you can think of. Millions of children are starving to death all over the planet and yet the workforce of God is spending Billions of dollars on school systems that they can control rather than feeding the children. Indoctrination is given priority over defending and protecting. We can find thousands of examples that show that the existence of the Church has been elevated far, far, far above the actual work of God as required in the Bible. But that too is another discussion.

Good thing you just got that new jet ski instead of feeding the starving children huh?

[Farmersfan]

Farmer, your dislike of all things religious overshadows any logic there may be in your posts, just like in your Romo posts. I disagree totally with your assessment of the purpose behind prayers at athletic events. The verbage of every such prayer I have ever heard does nothing but ask God's blessing for the health and safety of the players and fans. I have never heard any invitations to join any church yet.




It cannot be denied that a open, public prayer promotes a belief system. To attempt to deny this is moronic. It also cannot be denied that this "asking for God's blessing" can be accomplished without a open, public prayer! There are other alternatives. Regardless of what adjective that you want to use to justify the desire for a public/open prayer it cannot be denied that the underlying purpose for it is to influence others. Even if those others are like-minded people it is still influencing them. Vet93 even said that others might gain a measure of support, encouragement and comfort from a public prayer so how can you logically claim it doesn't influence others?
Here's another analogy that might make it more plain. If a young girl begs her father to allow her to wear a certain dress to school and he denies her because he believes the dress is too revealing. The young girl insists that she isn't wearing the dress to show off to others or to reveal anything but that it makes her feel good to wear such a pretty dress. The father then says she can wear the dress if she wears a coat over the top of it to cover it up. She refuses! Is there any question at this point as to the motives of the young girl? None whatsoever! And isn't this exactly what Christians are doing in this debate? They insist on their right to INFLUENCE other people with their religious views at a public venue. Regardless of whether you believe that influence is good or bad or who the influence is directed to it is still influence. If you admit that those who want it received influence from this prayer can you logically also claim that those who don't want it AREN'T influenced?

[buff4ever]

Somebody beat me to it. But I will type what I was going to type anyway. With these two characters, we are all better off arguing why the Cowboys have defaulted to ROMO for the long term (being more than half of the next season, given that anything over 8 games is way too long with romo).

These guys have made a choice to not want to see the bible as a whole and understand what believers understand in our belief. If they can't put together the old and the new testament, with real life instances, it is because they don't want to. Yes, some people just go along with Christianity for the comfort, others put a lot of research and effort into understanding what makes it believable, and then you have those who feel it is too much trouble to be a christian, then you have those who spend their time researching and looking for reasons that Christianity is a scam.

The why for the last group I mentioned is different I guess from one to the next. Some of them may think it takes too much time to be a Christian, so they spend all of that time trying to cut it down. Some think they are too smart to believe that the miracle is true, when much smaller miracles happen everyday, by chance? or not? However, the main point to this post in the first paragraph, is that this board is probably not the board to turn them, or them turn us. So let's talk about Romo sucking.

[Farmersfan]

I get accused of this all the time and it frustrates me to no end. If you don't agree with someone's point, then make a counterpoint. This type of response is not a thoughtful response when someone has laid out a very lengthy, reasoned comment.




I have made every possible attempt to remain respectful and to base every point I make on some type of logical foundation. The problem is that those who oppose my points can't use logic or reason to counterpoint. If they can't use "Faith" and "Because i said so" then they are at a lose to explain why they think like they do. I get that but in a debate it is like arguing with children...................... There is a reason for everything and I for one try to find the most logical and appropriate reasons.

[Farmersfan]

Good thing you just got that new jet ski instead of feeding the starving children huh?



What a stupid comment! I don't promote a belief system that requires that I feed those starving children.

[MUSTANG69]

I get accused of this all the time and it frustrates me to no end. If you don't agree with someone's point, then make a counterpoint. This type of response is not a thoughtful response when someone has laid out a very lengthy, reasoned comment.

There is no counterpoint. I agreed with him. First he promotes the idea of a moment of silence. I agreed that it was a logical solution. He then says it will not satisfy religious people. If he doesn't think it will work why support it. So. what is your point?

[pancho villa]

What a stupid comment! I don't promote a belief system that requires that I feed those starving children.

And Christian SCHOOLS do???

[Farmersfan]

Somebody beat me to it. But I will type what I was going to type anyway. With these two characters, we are all better off arguing why the Cowboys have defaulted to ROMO for the long term (being more than half of the next season, given that anything over 8 games is way too long with romo).

These guys have made a choice to not want to see the bible as a whole and understand what believers understand in our belief. If they can't put together the old and the new testament, with real life instances, it is because they don't want to. Yes, some people just go along with Christianity for the comfort, others put a lot of research and effort into understanding what makes it believable, and then you have those who feel it is too much trouble to be a christian, then you have those who spend their time researching and looking for reasons that Christianity is a scam.

The why for the last group I mentioned is different I guess from one to the next. Some of them may think it takes too much time to be a Christian, so they spend all of that time trying to cut it down. Some think they are too smart to believe that the miracle is true, when much smaller miracles happen everyday, by chance? or not? However, the main point to this post in the first paragraph, is that this board is probably not the board to turn them, or them turn us. So let's talk about Romo sucking.



Several facts that you have not acknowledge with this post of yours buff4ever.



#1. A person cannot CHOOSE to believe. Belief is a condition that is created by environment and exposure.

#2. A failure to believe in no way indicates a rejection of God. A free will choice for or against God would require a belief that God exists. Otherwise all you have is a pretense. A failure to obtain a belief in God is the result of a failure of the evidence or available material to convince. I can promise you that there are very few living atheists in the world that would actually WANT God to not exist if they were given a choice. Unfortunly the information available isn't suffiecient enough to provide a belief.

#3. This discussion hasn't been about whether or not God is real or whether or not the Christian belief system is a good thing or not. It has been about the idea that Christians should be allowed to openly pray at a sporting event. I took it a little deeper to try and examine why a Christian feels the need to openly pray at a sporting event.

[Farmersfan]

There is no counterpoint. I agreed with him. First he promotes the idea of a moment of silence. I agreed that it was a logical solution. He then says it will not satisfy religious people. If he doesn't think it will work why support it. So. what is your point?



Mustang69, I wasn't discounting what you said or speaking against your post. I was simply agreeing with you and stating that although it make perfect logical sense we are still going to have the inevitable battles with Christians because the Christians will never be satisfied with a moment of silence. I think it might be important for all of us to understand why a public prayer is so important to Christians. Don't you?

[Farmersfan]

And Christian SCHOOLS do???




And you called me a strange guy?

[MUSTANG69]

Mustang69, I wasn't discounting what you said or speaking against your post. I was simply agreeing with you and stating that although it make perfect logical sense we are still going to have the inevitable battles with Christians because the Christians will never be satisfied with a moment of silence. I think it might be important for all of us to understand why a public prayer is so important to Christians. Don't you?

I believe most Christians feel comfort and love from group prayers. Yes there are always some who will use it for other reasons. That holds true in all phases of life. No, I can not state facts to prove this. It is just an opinion. My opinion based on actions of my friends and acquaintances. I am more comfortable practicing my religion in private. That is a personal choice.

[buff4ever]

Several facts that you have not acknowledge with this post of yours buff4ever.



#1. A person cannot CHOOSE to believe. Belief is a condition that is created by environment and exposure.

#2. A failure to believe in no way indicates a rejection of God. A free will choice for or against God would require a belief that God exists. Otherwise all you have is a pretense. A failure to obtain a belief in God is the result of a failure of the evidence or available material to convince. I can promise you that there are very few living atheists in the world that would actually WANT God to not exist if they were given a choice. Unfortunly the information available isn't suffiecient enough to provide a belief.

#3. This discussion hasn't been about whether or not God is real or whether or not the Christian belief system is a good thing or not. It has been about the idea that Christians should be allowed to openly pray at a sporting event. I took it a little deeper to try and examine why a Christian feels the need to openly pray at a sporting event.

Clearly you have missed the point of the post. I took it a little deeper and pointed out that this thread is not the place to change someones mind if they don't choose to see or believe what is set in the Bible. Every argument you make clearly states your side and belief, unless of course you are just arguing to argue and your arguments don't reflect your true feelings. So don't get on me for taking it one step further when you continue to do the same to make your arguments.

ROMO still SUX.

[Cam]

3A Downlow.....the best website in the world to argue and discuss politics and religion!......:D

[44INAROW]

3A Downlow.....the best website in the world to argue and discuss politics and religion!......:D

I'd close this thread and put it out of it's misery if I knew how LOL......... Dangit I miss Tony :(

[Farmersfan]

Clearly you have missed the point of the post. I took it a little deeper and pointed out that this thread is not the place to change someones mind if they don't choose to see or believe what is set in the Bible. Every argument you make clearly states your side and belief, unless of course you are just arguing to argue and your arguments don't reflect your true feelings. So don't get on me for taking it one step further when you continue to do the same to make your arguments.

ROMO still SUX.



I'm pretty sure you are wrong on this account my friend! The most outspoken individuals on here might be resistant to convincing but there are a lot of people who are reading and who aren't commenting. If someone from either perspective were to post a comment or idea that they could embrace then a conversation like this does provide a service or serve a purpose. Somebody might be convinced by this debate. As far as the rest of your comment I also have to say that you have twice indicated that someone who doesn't hold your beliefs must have CHOSEN to not believe or not understand. This is completely incorrect. It cannot be a choice. Belief in any idea is the result of being convinced by evidence or influences. I have actually read the entire Bible many, many times in an effort to find some kind of reason within those pages. All that practice did was convince me that the understanding and acceptance of the Bible requires a frame of mind that comes from someplace else. My personal opinion is that the 2000 years of indoctrination is what allows this. The Bible is not self evident. So if it is God that provides this understanding as some Christians might be fond of claiming then God has chosen to not provide it to me at this time. The same opinionated and contrarianism that I have been labeled with on here would be used in defense of God if the belief had been bestowed upon me........ Instead I find myself reflecting on a ideology that seems to me to be so juvenile and unsophisticated as to be laughable. Yet I have made a committment to myself to try to be non-confrontational about it. So I apologize if that is what i did. I will leave you to it. Have a great day!

[vet93]

When discussing matters of faith, sometimes folks just have to agree to disagree. What you see as ambiguity, I see as crystal clear directives. Where you see evolution, I see the hand of a creator. What you dismiss as unsophisticated and juvenile, I see as the wisdom of the ages. Where you see a society moving toward enlightenment, I see individuals trapped in darkness. The same arguments that you use to say that you have arrived at your conclusions, I can say that I have arrived at mine in a likewise manner. You just don't agree with my observations or conclusions nor do I agree with yours. That is ok, and I am ok that you do not agree.



I'm pretty sure you are wrong on this account my friend! The most outspoken individuals on here might be resistant to convincing but there are a lot of people who are reading and who aren't commenting. If someone from either perspective were to post a comment or idea that they could embrace then a conversation like this does provide a service or serve a purpose. Somebody might be convinced by this debate. As far as the rest of your comment I also have to say that you have twice indicated that someone who doesn't hold your beliefs must have CHOSEN to not believe or not understand. This is completely incorrect. It cannot be a choice. Belief in any idea is the result of being convinced by evidence or influences. I have actually read the entire Bible many, many times in an effort to find some kind of reason within those pages. All that practice did was convince me that the understanding and acceptance of the Bible requires a frame of mind that comes from someplace else. My personal opinion is that the 2000 years of indoctrination is what allows this. The Bible is not self evident. So if it is God that provides this understanding as some Christians might be fond of claiming then God has chosen to not provide it to me at this time. The same opinionated and contrarianism that I have been labeled with on here would be used in defense of God if the belief had been bestowed upon me........ Instead I find myself reflecting on a ideology that seems to me to be so juvenile and unsophisticated as to be laughable. Yet I have made a committment to myself to try to be non-confrontational about it. So I apologize if that is what i did. I will leave you to it. Have a great day!