Split Divisions....What Do You Guys Think??

[Matthew328]

Do ya'll think this has enough suppport to be implemented in time for 2014 or do you think it'll be status quo for 2014??? Thoughts?

[BEAST]

Do ya'll think this has enough suppport to be implemented in time for 2014 or do you think it'll be status quo for 2014??? Thoughts?

Thats a tough one to call. I think split divisions will happen but I dont know if it will happen in the middle of the 2 year allignment. That is a big issue to do midway through the 2 year deal.




BEAST

[Matthew328]

Thats a tough one to call. I think split divisions will happen but I dont know if it will happen in the middle of the 2 year allignment. That is a big issue to do midway through the 2 year deal.




BEAST

Thats why I said 2014, it won't happen for 2013...that'd be insane..it will be voted on this spring for the 2014 alignment

[BEAST]

Thats why I said 2014, it won't happen for 2013...that'd be insane..it will be voted on this spring for the 2014 alignment

My bad. I misunderstood. Yes I think it will happen at 2014. I dont know how much I like or dislike it though. What are your thoughts?




BEAST

[Matthew328]

I'd like to see it honestly.....travel will be increased but I'm not the one traveling lol

[toddg]

it will happen...will be interesting to see how the districts will look.Alvarado could go any direction in D1, id prefer a westardly district to keep us with Stephenville..but who knows!

[Matthew328]

Another thing that's a stumbling block is that in order to do this you'd have to bump the top end of 3A to at least 1050 and maybe 1100...the small 3A's may not like having even bigger schools in their districts for other sports...

[toddg]

Another thing that's a stumbling block is that in order to do this you'd have to bump the top end of 3A to at least 1050 and maybe 1100...the small 3A's may not like having even bigger schools in their districts for other sports...

that could be problem..didnt think about that..

[GrTigers6]

As far as we are concerned it really won't effect us much travel wise but division 1 I could see. Brownwood, Abilene Wylie, stephenville,Alvarado , mineral wells or kennedale in a district.
D2 would be like us , west Venus, Hillsboro, castle berry, possibly china spring,

[cougartino]

This idea was put on the table before the 2012 realignment and nixed. They couldn't get enough school supers to approve it.

[Phil C]

It would be great and earn more money which is probably the most important consideration to the powers that be. Still we would be getting closer and closer to California status on State Champions.

Also what is unfair is that due to district classifications in the playoffs you could have a small school competing with much bigger schools in playoffs and I know only 11 players play on the field but bigger schools have more depth and injuries don't hurt them as much. Also you could have bigger schools playing against smaller schools because they are in a district with bigger schools. Remember 2001.

[slingshot]

Don't like it. Us western part of the state guys will get screwed on travel. 400+ mile trips for games will be the norm...

[Matthew328]

This idea was put on the table before the 2012 realignment and nixed. They couldn't get enough school supers to approve it.

It passed last time but it was like a 52-48 margin..UIl wants it closer to 70-30

[Matthew328]

Don't like it. Us western part of the state guys will get screwed on travel. 400+ mile trips for games will be the norm...

I think travel will increase some, but not by as much as some think...heck there's already travel...my next project will be a 3A (4A in 2014) split division mock up

Abilene to Monahans 410 miles round trip
Pecos to Anthony 462 miles round trip

[cougartino]

It passed last time but it was like a 52-48 margin..UIl wants it closer to 70-30

That I didn't know. But we're talking about the UIL so that makes sense.

[Tiganut]

I think travel will increase some, but not by as much as some think...heck there's already travel...my next project will be a 3A (4A in 2014) split division mock up

Abilene to Monahans 410 miles round trip
Pecos to Anthony 462 miles round trip

So Matt you will have the mock up to us by the end of the day?!?!?:clap:

[toddg]

I think travel will increase some, but not by as much as some think...heck there's already travel...my next project will be a 3A (4A in 2014) split division mock up

Abilene to Monahans 410 miles round trip
Pecos to Anthony 462 miles round trip

that will be interesting to see..look fwd to it.

[Matthew328]

It'll be a couple of weeks before I get to that....just a word of warning I'm sure it'll be subscription only content on TOC...stuff that takes that kind of time and research on my end generally won't be a freebie on the site..

[toddg]

It'll be a couple of weeks before I get to that....just a word of warning I'm sure it'll be subscription only content on TOC...stuff that takes that kind of time and research on my end generally won't be a freebie on the site..

im a subscriber when i can remember my password LOL!

[SHSBulldog00]

I see the split division in 2014 with us playing the I-10 school's again. Won't be much different than in the early 2000's add in one or two.

Personally I like the idea of a split division especially for us 3A school's whose ADM has dropped almost 150 students since 1998.

[CenTexSports]

Will the split divisions be only football like 2a is now? Cameron is in region 4 in football and a completely different district in region 3 in all other sports. I don't like it personnally but I don't have a dog in the fight. In this area the team that was affected most was Rogers, they had a major change in district and travel increased significantly. I predict finances will dictate a system more like 4a & 5a where 4 teams go from each district.

[navscanmaster]

Abilene to Monahans 410 miles round trip
Pecos to Anthony 462 miles round trip

A) Midland - Grande Communications Stadium
B) Van Horn - Eagle Stadium

Home games are overrated anyhow. Gotta think about the kids!:D

[buckeyebob]

As I understand it now, part of the realignment process will be to devide D1 & D2 at that time into D1 & D2 Districts. Each District will send three reps to playoffs. Discussion has included "seeding". Division of 3A would be ~700 students at this time. That would put teams like Gonzales, Jasper, Liberty-Eylau, Hirsci & Carthage at the low end of D1. Wimberly, W-OS, Argyle, Graham, Bellville, & Pittsburg as the Big Boys of D2. This would have sent Kilgore, Chapel Hill, Henderson to D1 leaving Gilmer, Bullard, Gladewater, & Spring Hill to D2 in our district.
How many times do we have it happen in the playoffs where you have big & little on the same field when, in my opinion, would be a better game when they were more evenly matched by size. We already call it as such it just does not happen by count always.
If it had been in place this year, could have made a lot of boys happy with a S'ville - Sota game.

[Matthew328]

If and this is a big IF, 3A (what will be 4A in 2014) goes split divisions...4 teams per district will make the playoffs

To the question earlier the split division concept would be football only..

[slingshot]

It probably works well for east TX and south/central TX teams and totally screws over the west TX teams...

[Matthew328]

I'm not sure it'll be a whole lot worse for West Texas...bottom line in 3A is either you dont split the divisions and the small schools have a hard hard time or you split em up and travel more but give the small schools more of a shot

[waterboy]

The first step toward split divisions the way I understand it is to add a fourth team to the playoffs, with the 2 bigger schools going D1, and the smaller 2 going D2. Isn't that what is supposed to happen next season? I don't think there is a quick fix that will satisfy all criteria for two divisions in 3A, so my thinking is that it won't happen anytime soon. A lot of things would have to change as for numbers to account for the number of teams needed to split divisions (i.e. raising the numbers on the top end of 3A, and/or raising both the top and bottom of numbers absorbing some smaller 4A schools into 3A, realigning the number in 2A, etc.), and travel distances would have to be considered, especially for the more isolated 3A teams out west. Personally, I don't think the complete split divisions will happen this next realignment.

[Matthew328]

the first step to the split divisions is going to 4...when split divisions were voted on last time there was a slight majority 52/48...will that # go up esp with some of the smaller 3A's maybe feeling a little threatened by the 4As coming in and having so much success?

[slingshot]

I'm not sure it'll be a whole lot worse for West Texas...bottom line in 3A is either you dont split the divisions and the small schools have a hard hard time or you split em up and travel more but give the small schools more of a shot

I could easily see us having 600 mile round trip district games playing in a district that would include Big Spring as the closest (220 mile RT) and some of the larger panhandle schools (Canyon? Dalhart?) as the furthest... unless we play Clint Mountainview.

[Bullaholic]

Better go to split---otherwise get ready for the Stephenville's of the 3A world to win a SC every season. Schools the size of Stephenville, and others, have no business playing district games with schools the size of Venus and others.

[Matthew328]

I could easily see us having 600 mile round trip district games playing in a district that would include Big Spring as the closest (220 mile RT) and some of the larger panhandle schools (Canyon? Dalhart?) as the furthest... unless we play Clint Mountainview.

If us is Abilene Wylie, my guess is its more likely they head east or south than west...I could see a Wylie, Stephenville, Brownwood, Mineral Wells type district

[Tiganut]

If us is Abilene Wylie, my guess is its more likely they head east or south than west...I could see a Wylie, Stephenville, Brownwood, Mineral Wells type district
You might could throw Snyder in mix. We turned in around 740 last time, but we are being told by the Chamber, Snyder's population could grow 20 to 30% by May. Land has been purchased for apartment complexes and housing developments. Super Wal-mart will be open by November along with other businesses coming in. Huge drilling plan by Devon is driving this. We shall see??

[Tiganut]

Hearing Sweetwater might benefit from this also. They were at around 550 I think last snapshot. They would need a huge increase.

[Matthew328]

Snyder's gonna be a swing school, could go in any direction

[Rabid Cougar]

As far as we are concerned it really won't effect us much travel wise but division 1 I could see. Brownwood, Abilene Wylie, stephenville,Alvarado , mineral wells or kennedale in a district.
D2 would be like us , west Venus, Hillsboro, castle berry, possibly china spring,

No thanks. It will not impact me personally but competition wise I'd rather stay in the Waco area. In 2014 China Spring will be over 700 if that makes a difference.

[Rabid Cougar]

Better go to split---otherwise get ready for the Stephenville's of the 3A world to win a SC every season. Schools the size of Stephenville, and others, have no business playing district games with schools the size of Venus and others.

I agree with this.

[vtskneb]

I agree with this.

How big are Venus and Hillsboro?

Stephenville in the last 4 years of 4A were in with Waco Midway, Killeen, Arlington Seguin, Mansfield Timberview, Mansfield Legacy and the likes. Sorry if our sympathy is lacking.

[Matthew328]

Venus 516
Hillsboro 458

now you get into a debate...whats worse 1000 kids vs. 2000 kids or 1000 kids vs. 500

[toddg]

Venus 516
Hillsboro 458

now you get into a debate...whats worse 1000 kids vs. 2000 kids or 1000 kids vs. 500Glen Rose aint much higher than Venus....the 4 team format will work as stated in our district--2 900+ teams going to D1 and 2 500+/- going D2.

[vtskneb]

Venus 516
Hillsboro 458

now you get into a debate...whats worse 1000 kids vs. 2000 kids or 1000 kids vs. 500

With the way Midway handed it to us, it is six in one half a dozen in the other as far as I am concerned.

[GrTigers6]

Glen Rose aint much higher than Venus....the 4 team format will work as stated in our district--2 900+ teams going to D1 and 2 500+/- going D2.

Yeah we are actually at 510 i believe

[speedbump]

Venus 516
Hillsboro 458

now you get into a debate...whats worse 1000 kids vs. 2000 kids or 1000 kids vs. 500

Only eleven play at a time.Would you rather have an extra 500 to pick from to beat my eleven or 1000 to pick from? Can't believe 3Aers are all ready whining about size disparity. (not directed at you)

[Manso/V8]

I just want another shot at El Campo and Navasota!

[speedbump]

I just want another shot at El Campo and Navasota!

You get to have that next year at your place. Should be a heck of a game. I expect Navasota to be next years West Columbia.

[buckeyebob]

Better go to split---otherwise get ready for the Stephenville's of the 3A world to win a SC every season. Schools the size of Stephenville, and others, have no business playing district games with schools the size of Venus and others.

I do agree.

[vtskneb]

Every team Stephenville played in the playoffs were over 900 students (borrowed that from Sville). I do not find that unfair. Next year when 4 make the playoffs however there will be some teams in the 600 range going big school and they will probably cry foul. Stephenville went Division 1 in 4A in 2005 with an enrollment around 1000 kids and played in the semifinals. Stepp can speak to the quality of that team. The format this last year is probably the fairiest way to do it if there is such a thing.

[Matthew328]

Only eleven play at a time.Would you rather have an extra 500 to pick from to beat my eleven or 1000 to pick from? Can't believe 3Aers are all ready whining about size disparity. (not directed at you)

JMO but its a bigger difference between 500 and 1000 than 1000 and 2000...

[vtskneb]

JMO but its a bigger difference between 500 and 1000 than 1000 and 2000...

I would say that depends on the gene pool in which you live. I think next year's playoff brackets could push this over the edge unless they are voting this February on 2014 alignments.

[Matthew328]

I would say that depends on the gene pool in which you live. I think next year's playoff brackets could push this over the edge unless they are voting this February on 2014 alignments.

Problem is I think if the vote doesn't pass this spring we won't see split divisions until 2016

[83Indian]

Problem is I think if the vote doesn't pass this spring we won't see split divisions until 2016

split the divisions for the playoffs with 4 teams going. have the regional champions from both D1 and D2 play for the undisputed 3a state champ. Look at recent history. This would be very competitive

[LHPfactory]

JMO but its a bigger difference between 500 and 1000 than 1000 and 2000...

sometimes, Celina and Gilmer have done pretty well vs the 1000 kid schools.

[buckeyebob]

sometimes, Celina and Gilmer have done pretty well vs the 1000 kid schools.

but sometimes not...I am not so worried about Gilmer, but there are others that deserve an opportunity that is swayed toward the large now.

[Matthew328]

sometimes, Celina and Gilmer have done pretty well vs the 1000 kid schools.

Celina is the exception and not the rule.....Gilmer is in the mid-high 600's I think they've been over 700 recently also...

[Manso/V8]

You get to have that next year at your place. Should be a heck of a game. I expect Navasota to be next years West Columbia.

Yep, looking forward to it. Having the Ricebirds and Wharton in district really made it a lot more interesting this year. Hope you can make it to the "Pasture of Pain" as we call it. It may not be the fanciest of venues, grass field and no video board, but we have a great atmosphere, awesome sausage wraps, and at the very least we have a cool name. LOL! Two big 'uns on the OL, our QB, and our best WR are graduating. The rest of the starters on offense are returning. I think we have players to fill those slots nicely. On defense, returning starters include a CB, 2 OLB's, and one DE. So, we have some rebuilding to do, but we have a pretty group in the lower grades. Since the new coach, Grady Rowe, arrived for the 2011 season, he has put kids in spots on defense that were not obvious choices to most, and developed them in to pretty stout defenses by the time the post season arrived. Rowe was a 2A head coach before coming to Bellville, so I think he has experience in developing good units from available talent. In the last two years, we haven't had any kids playing offense and defense except for special situations.

[buckeyebob]

Celina is the exception and not the rule.....Gilmer is in the mid-high 600's I think they've been over 700 recently also...

Never been over 700...slowly been gaining & now @ 631...largest we have ever been.

[waterboy]

Yep, we're usually in the bottom half of 3A schools in numbers. It doesn't bother us, though. We've won the title in both D1 and D2. In 2009, we won the D1 title with less numbers than the winner of the D2 title. We'll take on whoever the UIL sees fit for us to play. It is a disadvantage for a lot of schools to be playing schools twice their size, though.

[Matthew328]

I could have sworn Gilmer's been over 700 at some point...they were 4A in the late 90s....for some reason i thought they were over 700 until about 2006ish

[waterboy]

I could have sworn Gilmer's been over 700 at some point...they were 4A in the late 90s....for some reason i thought they were over 700 until about 2006ish

They altered the numbers in '95. There were a lot of what should have been 3A teams that were moved to 4A during that two year span. I can't remember what the cutoff was that year, but I do believe we were somewhere close to 700. When I was in high school we were around 700, and playing in what is 4A now. I do think we have been slightly over 700 before, just not anytime recently.

[buckeyebob]

Gilmer's population has been stagnant...1965-4,800 2011-5,000

[Aesculus gilmus]

I could have sworn Gilmer's been over 700 at some point...they were 4A in the late 90s....for some reason i thought they were over 700 until about 2006ish

You are correct. It was over 700 for several years in the 1990s and also for a few years in the 2000s. The reason Gilmer ISD has as large an enrollment as it does is because it covers so much territory - almost one-third of Upshur County. The area around Gilmer is stagnant, but Longview is growing this way. Longview is growing even more toward the New Diana ISD, but NDISD comprises such a small territory that it will remain in its classification for a long time. Harmony is on track to join 3A (soon to be renamed 4A) before New Diana is.

I just looked this up. Gilmer enrollment was 668.5 when we played Liberty Hill in the D1 title game of 2007. I am pretty sure that in the realignment period before that (2004-2006), Gilmer enrollment was something like 705.

[buckeyebob]

You are correct. It was over 700 for several years in the 1990s and also for a few years in the 2000s. The reason Gilmer ISD has as large an enrollment as it does is because it covers so much territory - almost one-third of Upshur County. The area around Gilmer is stagnant, but Longview is growing this way. Longview is growing even more toward the New Diana ISD, but NDISD comprises such a small territory that it will remain in its classification for a long time. Harmony is on track to join 3A (soon to be renamed 4A) before New Diana is.

I just looked this up. Gilmer enrollment was 668.5 when we played Liberty Hill in the D1 title game of 2007. I am pretty sure that in the realignment period before that (2004-2006), Gilmer enrollment was something like 705.

Never remember it being that big...where did the kids go?

[Aesculus gilmus]

Never remember it being that big...where did the kids go?

It's not just Gilmer.

This was just a demographic trend that hit pretty much all schools around here in the last decade or so, except for the "white flight" (don't anyone call me "rayciss"; just stating a fact) ones such as Harmony.

The only district that stands out in our immediate area as having defied that trend is Pittsburg and that is mostly because of its Hispanic influx. I got to thinking about that and figured that was why we went "small school" in 2004, but actually have found that it was Gladewater that was the big school out of our district that year. That's incredible, considering how small it is now. There may be something other than just demographics going on to cause the kind of enrollment decline Gladewater has experienced.

I also found the numbers for the 2008 realignment. Gilmer had jumped back up to 698 students, for some reason. But, of course, the only reason we went Division I in 2009 was because of that Chapel Hill-Gladewater game at the end of the season which, IIRC, Chapel Hill won, but not by enough points to make the playoffs.

What I've always thought would be interesting to know, what with all the bad publicity the public schools have been receiving from the people who want to switch to a voucher system, is how many potential students of the Gilmer ISD are going to private schools or being home-schooled. I am guessing, though, from the perspective of athletics/football, these students are not the ones you'd expect to be good at that sort of thing. And if they are, they'll be clamoring to their parents by the time they're in junior high or even before to be allowed to become Buckeyes. :cheerl:

[buckeyebob]

and rightfully so...