why yall got to play like that (gatesville)

[1team1dream]

i heard a rumor goin around that gatesvilles D was coached to take burnet out like they did to saldivar and tried to do to our other d-tackle..does anyone know if this is true... from my angle that night im thinkin its somethin like that!!! :mad:

[Gobbla2001]

Where'd you hear it from?

[spaniard]

i wasnt at the game, how bad is saldivar hurt? and when/if will he be back?

[1team1dream]

saldivar was hurt pretty bad his left foot i think. who knows how long that could be... and the other d-tackle is same too...

[Old Dog]

I have no way of knowing about the teaching techniques of the Gatesville staff, but if it were true it would be a shame. The Hornets played tough for sure, BUT I personally witnessed a huge amount of holding by their O & D. I just passed it off as them trying to stay in the game.

My friends and I who saw the game are still in awe of their RB, Thayer. He is quite a warrior! I'm looking forward to seeing who offers him a scholarship.

[Swarm 51]

1team1dream:
i heard a rumor goin around that gatesvilles D was coached to take burnet out like they did to saldivar and tried to do to our other d-tackle..does anyone know if this is true... from my angle that night im thinkin its somethin like that!!! :mad: What you heard was just that, an ugly rumor. The Hornet coaching staff will not tolerate nor do they teach any of the players to intentionally hurt anyone on the opposing team. We all regret Salvidar's injury. It was simply one of those freak things that happens in football. The Gatesville coaching staff, the Hornet players and the fans truly hope that Salvidar and the other player you mentioned will quickly recover from their injuries and be able to rejoin their teammates on Burnet's trip to the state championship. They have a great team, a group of super players and all of us in Hornet land wish the Dawgs the best of luck in their future games.

[beefy]

I will be the first to applaud the Gatesville staff on the effort and intensity of their young men. Those kids will play hard!!
However, I don't agree with the tactics used in their secondary on receivers. Gatesville's secondary will cut block receivers in order to knock them off their path or take them out of a route. I feel this is awfully dangerous. Receivers are on a full speed route and are not looking to be cut down. It presents alot of opportunity for injury. I heard a coach from Gatesville say this was no different than a receiver cutting a defensive back. I have to disagree. The def. back has the play developing in front of him and is not at full speed when receivers break down and block them. It is drilled and coached daily with defensive players to take on cut blocks. Receivers are totally unaware of being cut by db's.
I'm not accusing anyone of dirty football. I just think that this is a very unsafe tactic. The risk of serious injury is unquestionable. I don't think anyone would enjoy seeing a young man injured, but this is going to happen.
Let me hear your take on this tactic. As a parent I don't like it one bit.

[warbird89]

I was at the game and I saw twice where a DB went straight for Shipley's knees. That is chicken crap. If that is the only way you can try to stop him.. shame on you. Sounds like they dont know how to coach or better yet the ethics in coaching.

[Jerry10ydCurl]

Hey Beefy,

Was anyone hurt? I also heard there was a questionable call when a Burnet DB hit Thayer. Heard the explanation was a forearm to the head. When did this rule change. Since when can players not hit with their forearms? Congrats on the win

[this is the way we ball]

warbird89 I would have to disagree with you. Why would you not want your team to do everything that is within the rules to try and win the ballgame. You can cut receivers as long as the ball is not in the air. Ask G.A. Moore his kids do it all the time.

[Gobbla2001]

If you can't tackle him up high (which is one of the reasons he's a good R) then you have to tackle him at the knees... Sorry, it's within the rules...

[beefy]

Jerry, we had a solid outing. The defense did not play as well as they have been in the second half. Credit goes to the o-line and Thayer from Gatesville. They are very good.
Gobbla- It is legal to contact receivers at the line of scrimmage. It is illegal to do so down the field. That is what I am refering to. Even if it were legal, I believe that coaches have a responsibility to teach sound defensive and offensive schemes. While this scheme maybe be effective, I can't see anything sound or ethical about it. If the db misses then the receiver is wide open. If the db makes a good cut and an injury is the result, how could a coach feel good about what he's teaching? Just my opinion, but I feel strongly about this. If my son were to be injured by this tactic I would have a very hard time controlling myself. There are inherent risks in the game of football. This tactic is not one that is necessary. No college coach would ever dream of doing this. How does this prepare kids that are capable of playing at the next level. It doesn't.

[warbird89]

You cannot contact a receiver down field. Especially when he is not even involved in the play like last Friday night. I cant believe a coach would teach a kid to do that. The ref's caught it once and threw a flag and lucky enough he did not blow the kids knee out. I have played football on the high school, college, and professional level and have never seen or heard of a coach teaching a db to cut a reciever down field.

[this is the way we ball]

Check the rules.... You can make contact with a receiver anywhere on the field until the ball is in the air. I don't know about college and I know you can't in the NFL but this is high school. Anytime you cut a players legs out from under him there is a chance of injury. However, the UIL has not outlawed it so why not do it if it is effective.

You don't coach your kids for the college level... If they are good enough they will make it to the next level based on what the scouts see. If our high school coaches are coaching for the "next level" then good bye wishbone and wing-t teams.

[Ozzy]

It is illegal to cut a receiver once he is two yards beyond the line of scrimmage. That old saying about "doing anything to the receiver until the ball is thrown" is a bunch of bull. If it were legal to cut a receiver downfield, don't you think everyone would do it? It's dangerous, unethical, and illegal. And in one instance, Shipley was running a route downfield and was form-tackled. That's BS, plain and simple. Line up and play ball. It's still cheating, even if you DO get away with it. :confused:

[slpybear the bullfan]

Guys, you CANNOT hold, impede, or otherwise prevent the receiver once you get past the 2.5 yd mark. If the DB sweeps a guys legs 15 yards downfield then you will get a flag. (You should anyway.) If nothing else, impeding a receiver will get you a Defensive Holding call. (Very, very bad thing.)

slpybear

Ps- (For that matter, you can't hold a receiver anytime. Of course, you can knock his block off at the LOS.)

[holdem]

It is illegal for a defensive player to block an eligible receiver below the waist on a pass.

I'll get searching and when I find the rule article and section, I'll let Gatesville opponents know where it is. If not, I'll apologize to the hornets.

[HotDawg89]

Well, I was there too, and after the game, we asked the parents of a couple of our limping players how they were doing. The parents said they were okay, but that Gatesville was playing really dirty the last leg of the game. Standing on our players ankles and legs and rolling them before finally getting off of them... etc. Intentionally trying to hurt them. Don't know which kids did it, wouldn't call 'em out if I did, but it went unnoticed by the refs (as did lots of other stuff).

I found it awfully interesting that Saldivar was "taken out" or injured when he was. It wasn't until he was out that Thayer opened up like he did. Not that Thayer had anything to do with it- I'm just stating what I saw.

This is where discipline vs emotion is a big issue. I'm really sad to see this happen. Intentionally trying to hurt any player is WRONG. We saw what happened to Shipley as well. It was obvious they were going for his knees.

[holdem]

Rule 7-3-9 J

j. Tackling or grasping a receiver or any other intentional contact before he touches the pass is evidence that the tackler is disregarding the ball and is therefore illegal.

Disregard for the ball is the emphasis. It doesn't have to be a catchable pass. I'll continue searching to find out if a pass has to be thrown, but if someone's coaching this they probably need to be warned bfore the game and flagged for it if it happens.

[holdem]

As for "this is the way we ball" I've checked the rules and copied them here for ya:

Check out 4-b for all you that wanna "tackle the receiver before the ball's been thrown".

Also 4-c states "a defender can contact until a receiver until he occupies the same yard line as the defender".
Doesn't matter if the ball's been thown if the receiver's even with the defender. Continuous contact is illegal. You can't just contact a receiver anywhere on the field and claim the ball's not in the air so we can do whatever we want!

Use of Hands or Arms by Defense

ARTICLE 4. a. Defensive players may use hands and arms to push, pull,
ward off or lift offensive players when attempting to reach the runner.
b. Defensive players may not use hands and arms to tackle, hold or otherwise
illegally obstruct an opponent other than a runner.
PENALTY—10 yards from the basic spot [S42].
c. Defensive players may use hands and arms to push, pull, ward off or
lift offensive players obviously attempting to block them. Defensive
players may ward off or legally block an eligible pass receiver until that
player occupies the same yard line as the defender or until the opponent
could not possibly block him. Continuous contact is illegal (A.R.
9-3-4-I, II and IV).
PENALTY—Five, 10 or 15 yards from the basic spot [S38, S42, S43 or
S45].
d. When no attempt is being made to get at the ball or the runner, defensive
players must comply with Rules 9-3-3-a, b, c and d.
PENALTY—Five, 10 or 15 yards from the basic spot [S38, S42, S43 or
S45].
e. When a legal forward pass crosses the neutral zone during a forwardpass
play and a contact foul that is not pass interference is committed,
the enforcement spot is the previous spot. This includes Rule 9-3-4-c
(A.R. 7-3-9-II and A.R. 9-3-4-I and II).

[holdem]

THANKS FOR MAKING ME LOOK THIS UP.
This tactic is illegal all over the place. If Gatesville did this or is coaching it, it's illegal! Opponents get ready for 'em.

THE BALL DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THROWN. BLOCKING OR TACKLING THE RECEIVER IS ILLEGAL AS LONG AS THE QB (I GUESS IT'S REALLY THE BALL CARRIER)IS BEHIND THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE.

9-1-3e-3

3. During a scrimmage down, defensive players are prohibited from
blocking an eligible Team A receiver below the waist beyond the
neutral zone unless attempting to get at the ball or runner. A Team
A receiver remains eligible until a legal forward pass is no longer
possible by rule.

HE'S ELIGIBLE UNTIL A FORWARD PASS IS NO LONGER POSSIBLE BY RULE. (i.e. Someone's run with the ball across the line of scrimmage)

[sinton66]

This sort of stuff does happen, and It's not always because this is how the kids are coached. They sometimes do it on their own out of exuberance. We had a team try to injure our QB last year several times during the game. Unfortunately the refs didn't see it, and no penalty was assessed. One attempt had an opposition player trying to stomp on the QB's hands after he was already on the ground. Fortunately, our QB saw it coming and managed to move his hand out of the way.

Another had an opposition player hitting the QB square in the chest and knocking him backwards a full three steps after he released the ball on a pass attempt. The ref standing beside our QB just "happened" to be watching where the ball went instead of keeping an eye on the backfield which is what he was paid to do.

All this said, we know this particular Coach pretty well, and I'm fairly sure he wouldn't coach his kids this way. That's not to say other's wouldn't. Any Coach that would allow one of his players to "go after" another kid intentionally should be banned from coaching kids. Tremendous hits that are legal are a natural part of football, but this kind of stuff has no place anywhere.

[warbird89]

The bad thing about it all is that I heard one of the Gatesville coach's was trying to justify cutting reciever's. Look out opponents, put your knee braces on. They are playing dirty.

[dab]

I just can't believe you guys are making excuses even when you win the game.
Hate to see your reaction after a loss!!!

When you have a "big star" like Shipley everyone thinks you are going for his knees. My honest opinion is that when you have a kid who is as fast as Shipley to cover you do anything you can to bring him down. It is not a matter of trying to hit his knees, but just trying to bring him down.

Burnet is a solid and very salty team. I credit them on the win, but enough with the complaining.

[beefy]

dab,
This forum is for discussion and I think that is what I asked for in my original post. I would like to hear what people think of this tactic (coaches and parents alike). I used to think little of things like this and passed it off as hardnose football. Since I have become a father of two boys that opinion has changed with their involvement in sports. Like every father I want them to enjoy athletics and compete hard. What I witnessed Friday is something I would not my child to be coached to do or have done to them. Like every issue addressed on this board you will have those that gripe and complain without making a valid point. I think a valid point has been raised. This tactic is dangerous and is illegal. I don't know if the staff of Gatesville is aware of the illegality of the tactic. I do know that if nobody raises the red flag, this tactic will continue. I just don't want to see kids hurt needlessly. The game will take it's toll on enough of these young men without having something like this being taught.

[warbird89]

That's the problem right there. People like you with no ethics. "Whatever it takes" even if it means taking a kids knee or knees out? What your saying is that it is ok to play dirty to take the star player out. GET A CLUE..MEAT!!!!

[espn1]

dab:
I just can't believe you guys are making excuses even when you win the game.
Hate to see your reaction after a loss!!!

When you have a "big star" like Shipley everyone thinks you are going for his knees. My honest opinion is that when you have a kid who is as fast as Shipley to cover you do anything you can to bring him down. It is not a matter of trying to hit his knees, but just trying to bring him down.

Burnet is a solid and very salty team. I credit them on the win, but enough with the complaining.There’s no reason to make excuses. Like you said Burnet won. The shots were obvious. Especially on the line, where you were trying to roll over our line men’s legs. Your coaches know it and anybody that watches the films will know it, if they want to. Go to your Booster Club meeting and watch the film.
http://www.burnet.txed.net/high/bhsact04/gatesville2/images/DSC_1931.jpg

[Jerry10ydCurl]

I agree beefy. Something should be done. The worst part is that it is not called. I can understand officials missing some calls inside the box, things get clustered up and there might be a hold or two. But something like this where it is out in the wide open field, there is no excuse for missing this. Maybe someone should send this stuff to the Gatesville Coaching Staff.

[HotDawg89]

dab:
I just can't believe you guys are making excuses even when you win the game.
Hate to see your reaction after a loss!!!

Burnet is a solid and very salty team. I credit them on the win, but enough with the complaining.Dab, you might want to consider the posters on this thread. Look carefully- there may be 2 of us on this thread alone that are from Burnet. This is a discussion about things happened at the ballgame, and weather they were legal or not.
Gosh, Ozzy was slinging it around before the game that Gatesville was gonna win, and all about the streak... even he noticed that something was up. Gatesville has a great team as well, and I thnk they will do very well this year. BUt some of the tactics were not on the up and up. Doesn't matter to me if it was the kids, as stated in an earlier post- it could be exhuberance, but if it is true that the staff is coaching these tactics- that is a safety issue.

In all honesty, after a review of the film, I am sure if there were a real problem, the Burnet coaches would address it with the UIL. But this is for us to discuss it. It's not personal.

And for the record, Burnet doesn't handle losing well at all.

[espn1]

The Coaches are the ones that look at the film every week. They know it better than anyone.
http://www.burnet.txed.net/high/bhsact04/gatesville2/images/DSC_1931.jpg

[espn1]

And for the record, Burnet doesn't handle losing well at all.I like that you should put that in your signature.

[HotDawg89]

That's not a bad idea....

[holdem]

Cameron needs to get an official to point it out if they see this occur on video.

Sometimes things happen in a game accidentally and they're dangerous enough. We don't need people coaching kids techniques that are illegal because they're dangerous. I don't think Gatesville would like an opposing coach telling his receivers to block back to the ball and cut their LB low saying it's worth the 15 yards if we get him out of the game. It's illegal because MCLs and ACLs are important later in life.
If the coaches are trying to justify it, they're wrong. Stop coaching it.

I have not seen the video and don't know the coaches, so I apologize if they didn't do it and don't coach it. Hopefully they won't mind me clarifying the rule if they're not doing it.

I'm not from Burnet or Gatesville.

[dab]

I like the way that all of you are experts on the tacticts of Gatesville coaching. You have seen Gville play one game and have not attended a single practice or anything.

I am just simply stating that a great athlete like Shipley is almost impossible to bring down. If I was playing DB I think I would try to tackle anything I could touch.

I am sorry that the Burnet kid got hurt. But to be honest that is part of football.

This reminds me of the Warren Sapp hit last year. It is all part of the game!!!!

[Jerry10ydCurl]

A Gatesville coach admitted to coaching the secondary to take the legs out from under wide outs. He tried to justify it by saying that it is no different than cut blocks. I believe it is different. When a DB sees a run, everything is in front of him, including the guy who is coming to cut him. He can prepare himself to be cut (which all good secondary coaches teach their DBs how to take on cut blocks). A wide out however, never sees it coming, and can't take on a cut when he is running a route at full speed.

[espn1]

dab:
I like the way that all of you are experts on the tacticts of Gatesville coaching. You have seen Gville play one game and have not attended a single practice or anything.

I am just simply stating that a great athlete like Shipley is almost impossible to bring down. If I was playing DB I think I would try to tackle anything I could touch.

I am sorry that the Burnet kid got hurt. But to be honest that is part of football.

This reminds me of the Warren Sapp hit last year. It is all part of the game!!!!I don't have to attend a single practice or talk to any Coaches. If it happens one time you write it off. But! If you see it happening all night you know it was taught to the players. People arn't born with that knowledge, they are taught it.

[Osiris]

espn1:

dab:
I like the way that all of you are experts on the tacticts of Gatesville coaching. You have seen Gville play one game and have not attended a single practice or anything.

I am just simply stating that a great athlete like Shipley is almost impossible to bring down. If I was playing DB I think I would try to tackle anything I could touch.

I am sorry that the Burnet kid got hurt. But to be honest that is part of football.

This reminds me of the Warren Sapp hit last year. It is all part of the game!!!!I don't have to attend a single practice or talk to any Coaches. If it happens one time you write it off. But! If you see it happening all night you know it was taught to the players. People arn't born with that knowledge, they are taught it.It sounds like that they were either taught it, or their coaches failed to teach them that it was illegal. Both seem like a failure on the coach’s part, either in creating the problem or failing to solve it. The problem lies there. I hope the situation is rectified before it costs someone their season.