View Full Version : 3A vs. 5A
Matthew328
07-31-2012, 08:37 PM
found a few 3A vs. 5A games in 2012
Sinton vs. Laredo LBJ
Houston Yates vs. Houston Madison
Cleveland Tarkington vs. Houston Sam Houston
defense51
07-31-2012, 08:46 PM
I'm surprised the 5A teams would drop two classifications for football.
MustangFootball
07-31-2012, 09:03 PM
Ingleside scrimmaged 5A Laredo Martin last year and beat them 5 td's to 1....but in an actual game the only way it would work is if the 5 a team was a team that normally struggles, there's no way it would work if they were both power house teams. I believe the best 3a teams in the state could compete with the best 4a teams in the state, but definetly not 5a....not enough depth there.
coog4eva
08-01-2012, 09:08 AM
I thinks its all relative. La Marque with 3A numbers played a really good Manvel team last year with large 5A numbers and nearly beat them.
cougartino
08-01-2012, 10:08 AM
found a few 3A vs. 5A games in 2012
Sinton vs. Laredo LBJ
Houston Yates vs. Houston Madison
Cleveland Tarkington vs. Houston Sam Houston
I thought they outlawed that.
Ernest T Bass
08-01-2012, 12:38 PM
I thinks its all relative. La Marque with 3A numbers played a really good Manvel team last year with large 5A numbers and nearly beat them.
LM has large 4a numbers when it comes to males, though.
BwdLion73
08-01-2012, 12:53 PM
LM has large 4a numbers when it comes to males, though.
I've wondered something since I first heard of the lop sided ratio of male vs female at LM. Why dont they count males only for football placement?
Emerson1
08-01-2012, 01:28 PM
I've wondered something since I first heard of the lop sided ratio of male vs female at LM. Why dont they count males only for football placement?
Because technically chicks can play too.
coog4eva
08-01-2012, 01:34 PM
LM has large 4a numbers when it comes to males, though.
I dont know...LM suited up less than 40 kids on Varsity last year...
BwdLion73
08-01-2012, 03:06 PM
Because technically chicks can play too.
:doh :Check the rosters.
BwdLion73
08-01-2012, 03:07 PM
Because technically chicks can play too.
:vrycnfsd: spare me. :)
LM has large 4a numbers when it comes to males, though.
I keep hearing how LM has this large ratio of males to females on all these threads so I decided to go straight to the source. I just called the athletic department and got the breakdown. For the record on snapshot day LMHS had 365 males. In no way, shape or form does that equate to 4A numbers when doubled.
Whoever started that tidbit of info needs to redirect and check their facts. Any success or failure the Coogs have this year won't be because of an abnormal ratio of boys. They will sink or swim as a 3A program.
Ville-D
08-01-2012, 03:46 PM
I keep hearing how LM has this large ratio of males to females on all these threads so I decided to go straight to the source. I just called the athletic department and got the breakdown. For the record on snapshot day LMHS had 365 males. In no way, shape or form does that equate to 4A numbers when doubled.
Whoever started that tidbit of info needs to redirect and check their facts. Any success or failure the Coogs have this year won't be because of an abnormal ratio of boys. They will sink or swim as a 3A program.
It is just a way of the old 3a to cope with the coming of the new additions. Rumors get started and blow up quickly.
Saggy Aggie
08-01-2012, 03:52 PM
Matt328 was the first person I saw say that about the boy/girl breakdown... And he almost always is spot on. He knows what he's talking about.
Not saying he's right or wrong on this particular issue, but I doubt he just made that up. Wish Matt would shed some light on the situation. I'm actually kinda curious
Ville-D
08-01-2012, 03:52 PM
I keep hearing how LM has this large ratio of males to females on all these threads so I decided to go straight to the source. I just called the athletic department and got the breakdown. For the record on snapshot day LMHS had 365 males. In no way, shape or form does that equate to 4A numbers when doubled.
Whoever started that tidbit of info needs to redirect and check their facts. Any success or failure the Coogs have this year won't be because of an abnormal ratio of boys. They will sink or swim as a 3A program.
By the way, in the Ville we have an abnormal ratio of alien kids to normal kids and we just have to live with it. What can you do? http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gif (wouldn't let me put 11 of them)
Matt328 was the first person I saw say that about the boy/girl breakdown... And he almost always is spot on. He knows what he's talking about.
Not saying he's right or wrong on this particular issue, but I doubt he just made that up. Wish Matt would shed some light on the situation. I'm actually kinda curious
Unfortunately on this issue he's dead wrong, if that is who in fact is stating it. Not trying to be a stick in the mud; just bothers me that I watched a school of 740 go toe to toe for 4 quarters with a school that had 2,300 in the quarters and then you hear "but LM has 4A numbers for boys". No excuses if/when we lose. Just don't make excuses if we win.
Ville-D
08-01-2012, 04:41 PM
Unfortunately on this issue he's dead wrong, if that is who in fact is stating it. Not trying to be a stick in the mud; just bothers me that I watched a school of 740 go toe to toe for 4 quarters with a school that had 2,300 in the quarters and then you hear "but LM has 4A numbers for boys". No excuses if/when we lose. Just don't make excuses if we win.
:iagree: :clap:
defense51
08-01-2012, 04:56 PM
By the way, in the Ville we have an abnormal ratio of alien kids to normal kids and we just have to live with it. What can you do? http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/60.gif (wouldn't let me put 11 of them)
Illegal aliens? :rolleyes:
Matthew328
08-01-2012, 05:06 PM
My info came straight from a coach on staff...
My info came straight from a coach on staff...
To satisfy my own curiosity I'll try and touch base with Dr. Jax tomorrow and see what the exact number is.
Matthew328
08-01-2012, 05:19 PM
Cool...I talk to the good doctor about once a month and I've never pressed him on it..let me know what he says and tell him I said hello...it's quite possible the coach I spoke to was wrong..
Cool...I talk to the good doctor about once a month and I've never pressed him on it..let me know what he says and tell him I said hello...it's quite possible the coach I spoke to was wrong..
Straight from the head coach's mouth...368 males in the high school...he also said to tell you hello and to get your butt back to Texas. He spoke very highly of you.
LHPfactory
08-02-2012, 10:50 AM
Burnet went to 4A for 4 years in that Lake Travis, Pflugerville Connally, and Cedar Park district. These schools are/were large 4a or back n forth between 4a n 5a, the district of doom for 4A. Point is Burnet was there for 4 years and made the playoffs every year. Good 3 a teams can hang.
vtskneb
08-02-2012, 10:55 AM
Burnet went to 4A for 4 years in that Lake Travis, Pflugerville Connally, and Cedar Park district. These schools are/were large 4a or back n forth between 4a n 5a, the district of doom for 4A. Point is Burnet was there for 4 years and made the playoffs every year. Good 3 a teams can hang.
Well yeah, 4 teams make the playoffs in 4A. Burnet would have had to go at least 2-1 versus the other 3 teams in that district to make the playoffs. Not sure what point you made there. How did Burnet do versus the 3 schools you listed? TIA
Matthew328
08-02-2012, 11:33 AM
Straight from the head coach's mouth...368 males in the high school...he also said to tell you hello and to get your butt back to Texas. He spoke very highly of you.
I'm working on it..
coachc45
08-02-2012, 02:06 PM
Burnet went to 4A for 4 years in that Lake Travis, Pflugerville Connally, and Cedar Park district. These schools are/were large 4a or back n forth between 4a n 5a, the district of doom for 4A. Point is Burnet was there for 4 years and made the playoffs every year. Good 3 a teams can hang.
Not sure that is a valid point..... Burnet was a 4a team those 4 years, not a good 3a team. If they had numbers to be 4a then they are 4a. I really don't understand when people say things like we had 3a numbers in 4a. No you didn't, if you had 3a numbers you would've been in 3a.
Farmersfan
08-02-2012, 03:05 PM
Not sure that is a valid point..... Burnet was a 4a team those 4 years, not a good 3a team. If they had numbers to be 4a then they are 4a. I really don't understand when people say things like we had 3a numbers in 4a. No you didn't, if you had 3a numbers you would've been in 3a.
The Farmers of Farmersville played 2 season in the a 3A district with Prosper, Lovejoy, Lonestar and Princeton with fewer than 330 students. This happens when snap shot numbers are taken a full year before the classification goes into effect. Many teams that dropped down in the last realignment played as much as two season with numbers below the classification cutoff just as teams that moved up also played at least part of that 2 year classification with excess numbers.
BEAST
08-02-2012, 03:16 PM
True. Brownwoods last 2 season in 4A came about because of hurricane refuges that were here on snapshot day. They left to go back home and we had 3A numbers and had to play 2 seasons in 4A.
BEAST
Farmersfan
08-02-2012, 03:22 PM
True. Brownwoods last 2 season in 4A came about because of hurricane refuges that were here on snapshot day. They left to go back home and we had 3A numbers and had to play 2 seasons in 4A.
BEAST
I guess the same could apply to the years before we moved up to 3A. The snap shot numbers taken the year the Farmers won the State Title in 2A resulted in them moving up to 3A the next year. So basically they played the 07' 2A State Championship year with enough students to be 3A. (although they only moved up because of about 6 kids).
coachc45
08-02-2012, 03:34 PM
I guess the same could apply to the years before we moved up to 3A. The snap shot numbers taken the year the Farmers won the State Title in 2A resulted in them moving up to 3A the next year. So basically they played the 07' 2A State Championship year with enough students to be 3A. (although they only moved up because of about 6 kids).
I understand what you are saying...but when y'all won 2a you were a 2a regardless of your actual numbers. The next year you were 3a. The reason they use september as the snapshot is that is the time (most schools) when your school is at max enrollment. It gives the most reliable picture, and keeps cheating down.
Talking about being in 4a with 3a numbers is a cop-out.
bigwood33
08-02-2012, 03:46 PM
No you didn't, if you had 3a numbers you would've been in 3a.
coach, I am going to have to disagree with you on this. Teams are in the classification that the UIL places them in based on their history, not their actuality. I will use a similar example to what Farmersfan used, Prosper and Lovejoy both were 3A the last 2 years but in both of those years, they started the school year with over 1000 students in HS. That makes them "3A with 4A numbers". Whitesboro was also in 3A (bottom number was 435) for those same 2 years. When school started in '10, Whitesboro's enrollment was 410 and in '11 it was 399. Since those enrollment numbers fall below the bottom number for 3A, that means that Whitesboro played both seasons with significantly lower numbers than the bottom of 3A or should we say with 2A numbers.
The methodology that the UIL uses to determine enrollment is flawed and I am not sure there is a perfect solution but I would suggest counting 9th - 11th grades and using those numbers to determine classification.
Farmersfan
08-02-2012, 03:48 PM
I understand what you are saying...but when y'all won 2a you were a 2a regardless of your actual numbers. The next year you were 3a. The reason they use september as the snapshot is that is the time (most schools) when your school is at max enrollment. It gives the most reliable picture, and keeps cheating down.
Talking about being in 4a with 3a numbers is a cop-out.
Perhaps it is a cop out! Perhaps not! Can you say for certain Brownwood wouldn't have had much, much, much more success in 3A than they did those last two years in 4A? If their enrollment was below the minimum for 4A AT THE TIME THEY PLAYED then they were truly a 3A team playing in 4A................ This is why I think enrollment numbers should be done much closer to the actual season that they would effect. Don't know how they could do that though.
Farmersfan
08-02-2012, 03:52 PM
Sorry! I said Farmersville had 330 students. I meant 430............
coachc45
08-02-2012, 04:01 PM
coach, I am going to have to disagree with you on this. Teams are in the classification that the UIL places them in based on their history, not their actuality. I will use a similar example to what Farmersfan used, Prosper and Lovejoy both were 3A the last 2 years but in both of those years, they started the school year with over 1000 students in HS. That makes them "3A with 4A numbers". Whitesboro was also in 3A (bottom number was 435) for those same 2 years. When school started in '10, Whitesboro's enrollment was 410 and in '11 it was 399. Since those enrollment numbers fall below the bottom number for 3A, that means that Whitesboro played both seasons with significantly lower numbers than the bottom of 3A or should we say with 2A numbers.
The methodology that the UIL uses to determine enrollment is flawed and I am not sure there is a perfect solution but I would suggest counting 9th - 11th grades and using those numbers to determine classification.
I see your point.....but the fact still remains the same, they were 3a. They weren't 2a. Just as Prosper and Lovejoy were 3a. I realize the fact that the numbers were "actually" but at the same time you can't predict the future. There has to be a cutoff for numbers and ours just so happens to be in September. So if you are in in 3a with 2a numbers, don't use it as an excuse. Don't use it as a comparison. Just deal.
To go back to my original point, The Burnet guy claims that because Burnet had numbers below 4a it proves that a 3a school can compete.... that isn't true, if they would've been classified 3a, they would've competed against 3a schools on a weekly basis, and when stepping up against a good 4a without being used to the speed of the game would they have been prepared to compete? Maybe, maybe not. All I know is that they were classified 4a, so they were 4a.
coachc45
08-02-2012, 04:06 PM
Perhaps it is a cop out! Perhaps not! Can you say for certain Brownwood wouldn't have had much, much, much more success in 3A than they did those last two years in 4A? If their enrollment was below the minimum for 4A AT THE TIME THEY PLAYED then they were truly a 3A team playing in 4A................ This is why I think enrollment numbers should be done much closer to the actual season that they would effect. Don't know how they could do that though.
It is a copout. If you are classified as a 4a, then play 4a. Don't woulda, shoulda, coulda. At some point kids need to learn that life is not fair, so quit making excuses. The more we make excuses as adults, the more the kids learn it is ok.
Sorry, I'm off my soapbox.
BEAST
08-02-2012, 04:12 PM
It is a copout. If you are classified as a 4a, then play 4a. Don't woulda, shoulda, coulda. At some point kids need to learn that life is not fair, so quit making excuses. The more we make excuses as adults, the more the kids learn it is ok.
Sorry, I'm off my soapbox.
No copout here. We had a run to the quarterfinals one of those years.
BEAST
coachc45
08-02-2012, 04:35 PM
no copout here. We had a run to the quarterfinals one of those years.
Beast
amen
cowboyandchrist
08-02-2012, 08:30 PM
No copout here. We had a run to the quarterfinals one of those years.
BEAST
Tatum knows better than anyone, we won the 3A State champion ship in 2005 as the smallest 3a school in the state, went 2A the next year. Will move back to 3a in 2014 and will probley be the smallest again, but we can hang with the big boys.
bigwood33
08-02-2012, 09:16 PM
I see your point.....but the fact still remains the same, they were 3a. They weren't 2a. Just as Prosper and Lovejoy were 3a. I realize the fact that the numbers were "actually" but at the same time you can't predict the future. There has to be a cutoff for numbers and ours just so happens to be in September. So if you are in in 3a with 2a numbers, don't use it as an excuse. Don't use it as a comparison. Just deal.
No excuses, just sayin', there are inequities that exist. That is a fact. What I am saying is that I wish the UIL would change the way that they calculate enrollment because the way it is done today is creates the inequity. I don't think that anyone would have to predict the future if you just counted 9-11. The 12 graders that are counted will never compete in the district that the UIL puts the school in. They could fix some of it, not all, if they just would.
Since we're talking about 3A-5A there is a great picture from the Manvel-LM game that illustrates what I believe the big difference is between 3A/5A....linemen. I believe 68 was a Guard for Manvel and 48 is a 1st team all-district DL for La Marque.
I think most good programs will have skill kids. It's the size of the OL and DL which I believe separates a school with 650 from a school with 2500.
http://jackwilkins.smugmug.com/La-Marque-Football/2011/2011-La-Marque-vs-Manvel-Play/20426242_rt7Kz2#!i=1616512014&k=QgzMzq6&lb=1&s=A
coog4eva
08-03-2012, 07:36 AM
Since we're talking about 3A-5A there is a great picture from the Manvel-LM game that illustrates what I believe the big difference is between 3A/5A....linemen. I believe 68 was a Guard for Manvel and 48 is a 1st team all-district DL for La Marque.
I think most good programs will have skill kids. It's the size of the OL and DL which I believe separates a school with 650 from a school with 2500.
http://jackwilkins.smugmug.com/La-Marque-Football/2011/2011-La-Marque-vs-Manvel-Play/20426242_rt7Kz2#!i=1616512014&k=QgzMzq6&lb=1&s=A
I agree....and also the abundance of kids that size on the team.....it wasnt just one or two....Ironically LM is huge this year on the line....go figure......
Txbroadcaster
08-03-2012, 08:16 AM
Since we're talking about 3A-5A there is a great picture from the Manvel-LM game that illustrates what I believe the big difference is between 3A/5A....linemen. I believe 68 was a Guard for Manvel and 48 is a 1st team all-district DL for La Marque.
I think most good programs will have skill kids. It's the size of the OL and DL which I believe separates a school with 650 from a school with 2500.
http://jackwilkins.smugmug.com/La-Marque-Football/2011/2011-La-Marque-vs-Manvel-Play/20426242_rt7Kz2#!i=1616512014&k=QgzMzq6&lb=1&s=A
yet a school like Gilmer a mid 3A had a road clearing OL back in 07 that included David Snow who went to Texas and started...difference in a 5A and a 3A will alwys be simply depth..not size, not speed but depth
yet a school like Gilmer a mid 3A had a road clearing OL back in 07 that included David Snow who went to Texas and started...difference in a 5A and a 3A will alwys be simply depth..not size, not speed but depth
I agree that a 3A school can have a year where they are huge up front. That's part of the cycle of kids that come through any school. The point I'm making is at 5A you have a traditionaly bigger OL and DL year in and year out bc of pool you're drawing from. I know nothing about Gilmer but I bet their line hasn't been as huge as they were in 2007 every year since then. A school like La Marque will have talented skill kids cycle through yearly but they won't have a 6'6 350 OL come through as often as a school with 2500 kids.
Farmersfan
08-03-2012, 09:20 AM
yet a school like Gilmer a mid 3A had a road clearing OL back in 07 that included David Snow who went to Texas and started...difference in a 5A and a 3A will alwys be simply depth..not size, not speed but depth
Of course there are exceptions to every rule. But in general depth will increase both team "SPEED" and team "SIZE".
coachc45
08-03-2012, 10:02 AM
No excuses, just sayin', there are inequities that exist. That is a fact. What I am saying is that I wish the UIL would change the way that they calculate enrollment because the way it is done today is creates the inequity. I don't think that anyone would have to predict the future if you just counted 9-11. The 12 graders that are counted will never compete in the district that the UIL puts the school in. They could fix some of it, not all, if they just would.
If they count 9-11 then they do not have the "high school" counted. Just 3 grades. They could include 8th graders to get an accurate count. I would prefer that they use 12th graders though....that is usually your smallest class with dropouts and early grads taken out.
I agree inequities exist, but to point out those inequities to justify why one team is more successful or not as successful is a copout. My point was never that this was the RIGHT way to do classifications. But to constantly say, we played 4a with 3a numbers or so and so played 3a with 4a numbers, is not acceptable to compare how a team would do in another classification. I pointed out, simply, that because Burnet competed in a 4a district with 3a numbers does not equal 3a teams can compete in 4a.
Your argument is a different subject than my point.
Matthew328
08-03-2012, 11:28 AM
Counting 8th graders is not a perfect science because schools split feeders, school choice etc.
bigwood33
08-03-2012, 12:59 PM
Counting 8th graders is not a perfect science because schools split feeders, school choice etc.
You're right. I don't think that there is a perfect solution. The reason that I contend that 12th graders should not be counted is that those kids will not be there for the realignment. I don't presume to have THE solution, just suggesting an alternative that would be more equitable. Teams that aren't "on the bubble" aren't impacted either way but those that are remain caught in a very tough predicament.
Matthew328
08-03-2012, 01:09 PM
agree, every potential solution is flawed...I'm partial to the way its done now but thats just me
Well here we go...
My Coogs line it up against 5A Oak Ridge this morning in a 9 am scrimmage. Hopefully they get some good work in and come out healthy as can be.
Lion70
08-17-2012, 07:49 AM
I remember Cleaveland 3a beating New Caney ( I belive) 5a a few years back proving enrollment doesn't = Wins.
Pendragon13
08-17-2012, 07:52 AM
Of course there are exceptions to every rule. But in general depth will increase both team "SPEED" and team "SIZE".Exceptions indeed..
Last year I watched Abilene High beat a much bigger (and probably faster overall) Midland Lee team, and then I realized that the Abilene High (5A) players were not only smaller than Lee....but also significantly smaller than last years Abilene Wylie (3A) team!:thinking:
Of course Abilene high is one of the smaller 5A's and Wylie one of the larger 3A's, (and the Eagles went much deeper in the playoffs than the Bulldogs) but still it was a strange thing to behold...and proof that "looking the part" on paper doesn't always translate to on-field success.
LHPfactory
08-17-2012, 09:02 AM
[QUOTE=...and proof that "looking the part" on paper doesn't always translate to on-field success.[/QUOTE]
So true, I have coached youth football for years and have learned that HEART is only determined on the field with the pads on. I have recruited some great athletic baseball and basketball kids that shut down on the grid iron. I have also coached kids that are mediocre athletes that have a real passion for football, love these kind of kids, they will do what ever it takes and never give up.... Which brings us to the 1st law of football:
"The team that is more physical will win 90% of the time***" ***(If your program equips them for success)
mwynn05
08-17-2012, 04:42 PM
.. of course humble isd has open enrollment for some schools.... dont even get me started on that
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.