Penn St possibly facing death penalty

[BEAST]

NCAA boss said he would not rule out the death penalty for the football program after the findings of the latest investigation into who knew what and so on regarding the Sandusky issue.

Thoughts..




BEAST

[Bullaholic]

Punish all those involved in the coverup, and possibly fine the university, but leave the athletes alone--they had no indications of involvement.

[Phil C]

The ones who follow them are innocent and yet they are the ones that suffer. Right Craig James?

[Old Tiger]

Punish all those involved in the coverup, and possibly fine the university, but leave the athletes alone--they had no indications of involvement.the athletes will be able to transfer whereever they want without sitting out. When it comes to this kinds thing the athletes best interest and football program are what covered it up for so long.

[Bullaholic]

the athletes will be able to transfer whereever they want without sitting out. When it comes to this kinds thing the athletes best interest and football program are what covered it up for so long.
And the athletes had absolutely nothing to do with that...

[Phil C]

More victims of society. :(

[Old Tiger]

And the athletes had absolutely nothing to do with that...exactly amd thats why they will be able to transfer without sitting out. But this is a definitie lack of institutional control that stints directly from the football department.

[Farmersfan]

The athletes won't be harmed by this. And at the same time I can't see how it would be acceptable for future athletes to BENEFIT from this program. I say turn this institute of higher learning back into a school and shut the football program down forever..................

[bolshavik]

This was total corruption, makes the SMU scenerio seem like childs play. The powers that be hid this so that it would not effect recruiting,money, prestige etc.. This gave an advantage to Penn State. The Death Penalty is the only thing to do here.

[YTBulldogs]

Punish all those involved in the coverup, and possibly fine the university, but leave the athletes alone--they had no indications of involvement.

:iagree:

[Bullaholic]

This was total corruption, makes the SMU scenerio seem like childs play. The powers that be hid this so that it would not effect recruiting,money, prestige etc.. This gave an advantage to Penn State. The Death Penalty is the only thing to do here.

I find this kinda funny coming from a guy who rails about "holier than thou" and stiff DWI penalties.

[bolshavik]

hey Bullidiot- They were covering up the molestation of kids. This isn't hey, you could of hurt somebody IF you would of wrecked but you DIDNT wreck but we are gonna act like you did wreck and hurt somebody. This is turning a blind eye to kids being MOLESTED so as to not hurt the football program. Well, now it is time to pay the piper and the football team will suffer now.

[coachc45]

How did this involve the "Football Program"? It is simple to sit back and say give them the death penalty, but why? The football program had nothing to do with it. The HC screwed up, the AD screwed up, and the President screwed up. Not their programs. Should they shut down the University because the Pres was involved? No. Should they shut down the entire athletic program because the AD was involved? No. Then why shut down the football program because the HC was involved? Just ludicrous.

SMU got the Death Penalty because the football program was involved in the illegal benefits scheme, Not because the HC was involved.

[coachc45]

hey Bullidiot- They were covering up the molestation of kids. This isn't hey, you could of hurt somebody IF you would of wrecked but you DIDNT wreck but we are gonna act like you did wreck and hurt somebody. This is turning a blind eye to kids being MOLESTED so as to not hurt the football program. Well, now it is time to pay the piper and the football team will suffer now.

How did a cover-up benefit the football team? It was covered up to benefit the bosses, not the program.

[bolshavik]

The head of the football program (Paterno) covered it up to protect the football program. To protect recruiting,image, ensure wins etc.. Do not be surprised if the death penalty is handed out for this.

[jason]

could it be possible that the ncaa comes out and says that although what happened was unlawful, there were no actual ncaa violations committed therefore they won't be punished ?
maybe there is an ethics clause that was violated?

just a thought

[Old Tiger]

How did this involve the "Football Program"? It is simple to sit back and say give them the death penalty, but why? The football program had nothing to do with it. The HC screwed up, the AD screwed up, and the President screwed up. Not their programs. Should they shut down the University because the Pres was involved? No. Should they shut down the entire athletic program because the AD was involved? No. Then why shut down the football program because the HC was involved? Just ludicrous.

SMU got the Death Penalty because the football program was involved in the illegal benefits scheme, Not because the HC was involved.It happened in football facilities and the head coach who appears to be the one who called all the shots on the cover up. It was covered up to protect the football program as a money maker. The bosses wanted to turn in Sandusky but after emails with Paterno their planned changed to protect one of Joes friends and the football program because they knew what would happen if this got out and we will see what will happen.

[Old Tiger]

could it be possible that the ncaa comes out and says that although what happened was unlawful, there were no actual ncaa violations committed therefore they won't be punished ?
maybe there is an ethics clause that was violated?

just a thoughtThe way Emmert(sp?) was talking is that they are going to try and find every little rule that Penn State could of and did violate.

[coachc45]

It happened in football facilities and the head coach who appears to be the one who called all the shots on the cover up. It was covered up to protect the football program as a money maker. The bosses wanted to turn in Sandusky but after emails with Paterno their planned changed to protect one of Joes friends and the football program because they knew what would happen if this got out and we will see what will happen.

I read the report and their were no emails from Paterno. The email said that "after talking to Coach Paterno, I have decided to not proceed with our original plan" That is in the Freeh report. Nowhere does it say what that conversation entailed...... we can jump to conclusions, but there is no record of the conversation. How can you take any definitive action based on 1/2 of the story. He may well have decided to cover it up because of the football program as a money maker, or it may have been to protect a friend. We don't know.....so how can you definitively say the reason when none was ever given?

That is beside the point though......Why Joe Paterno and et al decided to cover it up is irrelevant. It still boils down to the fact that the "program" was not involved, only Paterno. Don't punish the program for something one man did.

[coachc45]

The head of the football program (Paterno) covered it up to protect the football program. To protect recruiting,image, ensure wins etc.. Do not be surprised if the death penalty is handed out for this.

Where did you get your info that it was done to protect recruiting, image, ensure wins etc? There is no proof of this, only people drawing conclusions.

I would be very surprised if they got the death penalty, shoot I would be surprised if they got anything more than a slap on the wrist....

[Bullaholic]

hey Bullidiot- They were covering up the molestation of kids. This is turning a blind eye to kids being MOLESTED so as to not hurt the football program. Well, now it is time to pay the piper and the football team will suffer now.

For the 100th time---I'm talking about the punishment of athletes who had no involvement, NOT the perpetrators.

Taking your words---"This isn't hey, you could of hurt somebody IF you would of wrecked but you DIDNT wreck but we are gonna act like you did wreck and hurt somebody." So if you were riding with somebody and they drive recklessly and DID wreck, your license should be suspended, also? The driver was in control of the car--not you---so you should pay the price, too?

[coachc45]

For the 100th time---I'm talking about the punishment of athletes who had no involvement, NOT the perpetrators.

Taking your words---"This isn't hey, you could of hurt somebody IF you would of wrecked but you DIDNT wreck but we are gonna act like you did wreck and hurt somebody." So if you were riding with somebody and they drive recklessly and DID wreck, your license should be suspended, also? The driver was in control of the car--not you---so you should pay the price, too?

Totally agree.

[lostaussie]

sound to me like there lots of "yankee haters" wanting the entire football program shut down. What they did was wrong to the nth degree, but the current coaching staff and players had nothing to do with it. I am certainly not a Nittany Lion fan but it just seems to me we need to let this one go. Let the proper authorities prosecute the proper people, not the court of public opinion prosecute the folks who aren't guilty. jmo

[bolshavik]

Since when has it mattered that current players involved di dnot have to suffer for the programs sins of the past? Hello, anybody heard of Reggie Bush and USC? Eric Dickerson and Craig James were in the NFL already when SMU got the death penalty for what had gone on in the past. Penn State lost institutional control long ago. You hide and watch, this is just the tip of the ice berg. I have a reporter friend up in the north east that says the WHOLE HOUSE OF CARDS will come tumbling down over this. After this is over Penn State might be a Division III school.

[bolshavik]

and yes, I am not partial to anything yankee. South for me baby

[Pick6]

Since when has it mattered that current players involved di dnot have to suffer for the programs sins of the past? Hello, anybody heard of Reggie Bush and USC? Eric Dickerson and Craig James were in the NFL already when SMU got the death penalty for what had gone on in the past. Penn State lost institutional control long ago. You hide and watch, this is just the tip of the ice berg. I have a reporter friend up in the north east that says the WHOLE HOUSE OF CARDS will come tumbling down over this. After this is over Penn State might be a Division III school.

Do you really think SMU got the death penalty because of Craig James and Eric Dickerson?? Long after they were gone money was still being spent on players. They were on probation for giving money to players during James/Dickerson days. After that group graduated and with SMU still on probabtion the football program still let THE PLAYERS receive money from alumni. That was the reason they got the death penalty, not the James/Dickerson years.

[bolshavik]

It was all of it together...Guess what Reggie Dupard was no longer at SMU when they got the Death Penalty either. Hey, why did you not bring up Reggie Bush and USC? YEAH, THATS WHAT I THOUGHT.

[gatordaze]

If I can find it I will post a recruiting letter from last September that my son received. It was from Mike McQuery and talked about how PSU was the cleanest program in the nation and that integrity mattered. As a parent, and at the time, it struck a nerve with me and caused us to consider PSU.

How many top level recruits committed to PSU over the past 14 years that would not have if they knew of the abuse? Even if 3-4 had changed their mind based upon the less than lilly white persona of the coach and the program then the NCAA would not have an argument about "unfair advantage". Their unearned reputation was a competitive advantage!

The only reason that I am against the death penalty is based upon those family businesses that rely on Saturday revenues and invested in chasing the American dream. It is not just to penalize them.

PSU can go D2 for all I care.

[Maroon87]

It was all of it together...Guess what Reggie Dupard was no longer at SMU when they got the Death Penalty either. Hey, why did you not bring up Reggie Bush and USC? YEAH, THATS WHAT I THOUGHT.

Comparing the Reggie Bush thing to Penn St. isn't even apples to oranges. It's more like apples to hand grenades. The first was a violation of NCAA rules, the second involved a series of criminal acts. If anything it has more in common with the Carlton Dotson/Patrick Dennehy situation with Baylor basketball about a decade ago.

[bolshavik]

Sanctions are coming boys, State Penn will pay and pay dearly. Their 1986 title should be stripped...Oh, and isn't it justice that they got snubbed for other titles?..lol... Somebody knew. Burn baby burn

[coachc45]

If I can find it I will post a recruiting letter from last September that my son received. It was from Mike McQuery and talked about how PSU was the cleanest program in the nation and that integrity mattered. As a parent, and at the time, it struck a nerve with me and caused us to consider PSU.

How many top level recruits committed to PSU over the past 14 years that would not have if they knew of the abuse? Even if 3-4 had changed their mind based upon the less than lilly white persona of the coach and the program then the NCAA would not have an argument about "unfair advantage". Their unearned reputation was a competitive advantage!

The only reason that I am against the death penalty is based upon those family businesses that rely on Saturday revenues and invested in chasing the American dream. It is not just to penalize them.

PSU can go D2 for all I care.

Still is the cleanest program in america.... now was the guy leading it? No. But the program is still clean.

[coachc45]

Sanctions are coming boys, State Penn will pay and pay dearly. Their 1986 title should be stripped...Oh, and isn't it justice that they got snubbed for other titles?..lol... Somebody knew. Burn baby burn


So if one of the people you work with committs a crime and you know about it but don't tell about it..... The business you work for should be shut down?


Great logic there buddy.

[NastySlot]

Eric Dickerson and Craig James were in the NFL already when SMU got the death penalty for what had gone on in the past.

SMU continued to cheat after both left. SMU continued to cheat and hide the cheating when on probation and when coming off it. SMU is a totally different situation. I had a
couple of friends that played on the team at SMU when given the death penalty....some got money etc and some didn't but all knew about the cheating and who was getting what.
SMU took cheating to a new level and it got too out of control for them to stop and fix.

[bolshavik]

The key here is lack of institutional control. Every major media is saying MAJOR sanctions will come. The NCAA Prez says everything is on the table and the Death Penalty in on the table as an option. Keep on living in your dream world boys. SANCTIONS ARE COMING deal with it

[NastySlot]

The key here is lack of institutional control. Every major media is saying MAJOR sanctions will come. The NCAA Prez says everything is on the table and the Death Penalty in on the table as an option. Keep on living in your dream world boys. SANCTIONS ARE COMING deal with it


So will these sanctions just be for the football program or all athletics since the AD was involved? Couldn't it be said than he was trying to cover up this so the athletic dept. wouldn't get a bad name....and then I guess the same could be said for the university s academics reputation. Wonder if the university has lost or will lose research money.

[bolshavik]

When this is said and done Penn State might have 1500 people at their college

[coachc45]

The key here is lack of institutional control. Every major media is saying MAJOR sanctions will come. The NCAA Prez says everything is on the table and the Death Penalty in on the table as an option. Keep on living in your dream world boys. SANCTIONS ARE COMING deal with it

Haven't answered the question yet?


Who cares what ESPN says....they are all about scandal now. If anything can be blown out of proportion, they will do it. Remember the Steroid Era in baseball.... 75% of the US could care less if they used steroids or not, but the media sure is going to make sure they don't get into the hall of fame! When did the media get appointed the moral compass of America? I liked it better when they REPORTED the news instead of CREATING it.

[bolshavik]

U think that 75% of americans could care less if kids were being molested? If that is the pulse then maybe you are right....Im a guessing people are a lil bit more protective of kids getting corn holed

[ogg]

NCAA boss said he would not rule out the death penalty for the football program after the findings of the latest investigation into who knew what and so on regarding the Sandusky issue.

Thoughts..




BEAST

It’s possible. No institution, organization, association, group, government or dog pack wants to be associated with Penn State right now, , , , they are on their own. Under constant bombardment from the media and each day (now worldwide) people question what punishment will be handed down and what to do with Penn State. NCAA will need to make a hard and correct sanction on Penn State since it’s in the middle of all this. They don’t want scrutiny for under punishing this type crime.
I could see them jumping all the SMU type warnings, probation etc. and going straight to the big one.

[coachc45]

U think that 75% of americans could care less if kids were being molested? If that is the pulse then maybe you are right....Im a guessing people are a lil bit more protective of kids getting corn holed
Did I say that? No. What I said was ESPN sensationalizes things. They are reporting the freeh report as facts, when it is nothing more than one guys opinion to why and what happened. He says it is his opinion in it. Opinion is not fact and should not be reported as fact. But that doesn't stop ESPN because it gets ratings.
If Penn State gets the death penalty it opens up a huge can of worms. Basically it sets a precedent that if the head coach breaks a law, then the school gets the death penalty.
Next they will have to give Arkansas the death penalty, didn't Petrino break the law, hire someone to keep them close, and then cover the whole thing up? Death Penalty!

[regaleagle]

Obviously, football is the "cash cow" for Penn State, so to punish this institution in the greatest possible way would be to take away the cash cow. Regardless of those not directly involved, the NCAA will be considering what punishment/sanctions will cause the greatest burden to the university and be totally acceptable to the viewing pubic at the same time. This saga of corruption and coverup has grabbed the attention of the world, so the NCAA must be firm and unforgiving in meting out the sanctions in the most severe way to match the atrocities that were committed. Anything less would be met with much criticism and leave the NCAA looking like a milquetoast governing body.

[Old Tiger]

Big Ten officials are still in the early stages of debating how to handle fallout from the scandal. Among other ideas, the league’s presidents and chancellors could consider removing Penn State from the conference, one Big Ten leader told The Chronicle.

The Big Ten Conference Handbook, which governs the league’s operations, does not contain language addressing a situation as egregious as what happened at Penn State.

But the conference’s bylaws prescribe potentially severe penalties for member institutions that break lesser rules. Any Big Ten university that employs or retains workers who intentionally falsify or deliberately fail to provide complete and accurate information during an investigation may be required to “show cause why its membership in the conference should not be suspended or terminated,” the Big Ten’s 2011-12 handbook says.

http://chronicle.com/blogs/players/j...-coaches/30771

[Bullaholic]

Obviously, football is the "cash cow" for Penn State, so to punish this institution in the greatest possible way would be to take away the cash cow. Regardless of those not directly involved, the NCAA will be considering what punishment/sanctions will cause the greatest burden to the university and be totally acceptable to the viewing pubic at the same time. This saga of corruption and coverup has grabbed the attention of the world, so the NCAA must be firm and unforgiving in meting out the sanctions in the most severe way to match the atrocities that were committed. Anything less would be met with much criticism and leave the NCAA looking like a milquetoast governing body.

I agree in theory, regaleagle, but not in practice. Remove the football cash cow from the State College, PA ranch and you bankrupt the ranch and many of its workers and their families. Many more far-reaching major ramifications to consider before such an action should be taken by the NCAA. Perhaps substansial fines levied on the University which would be earmarked for contribution to child abuse prevention charitable organizations would be one possible positive solution.

[regaleagle]

Good points Bull. There is never anything positive about two negatives by punishing others that are connected with the university for the actions of those that did wrong. Trying to find a way to turn this horrendous ordeal into a positive and keep those connected with the university that were not involved in any way still employed would be the preferred path to maintain some semblance of autonomy for the university, economically speaking. Good idea, but I just don't see it happening in this instance. I could be wrong, but I think the powers that be will be very severe to Penn State in handing down the sanctions and punishments.

[Macarthur]

They are reporting the freeh report as facts, when it is nothing more than one guys opinion to why and what happened. He says it is his opinion in it. Opinion is not fact and should not be reported as fact.

This not really accurate. The investigation contains emails, letters, and quite a bit of documentation. While some of his conclusions are his opninion, that doesn't mean they are unreasonable conclusions based on the EVIDENCE.

[Macarthur]

Still is the cleanest program in america.... now was the guy leading it? No. But the program is still clean.

I'm not sure this is accurate. You might want to check PSU's arrest record the last decade. It actually was one of the worst in D1.

And can you really separate the program with the guy running it?

[Old Tiger]

This not really accurate. The investigation contains emails, letters, and quite a bit of documentation. While some of his conclusions are his opninion, that doesn't mean they are unreasonable conclusions based on the EVIDENCE.Not to mention eye witness accounts from janitors and other facility staff.

[coachc45]

This not really accurate. The investigation contains emails, letters, and quite a bit of documentation. While some of his conclusions are his opninion, that doesn't mean they are unreasonable conclusions based on the EVIDENCE.

Not one of the emails or letters implicate Paterno in any way other than to mention his name...... Never said they were unreasonable conclusions, but they were still opinion. Too much grey area surrounding the exact involvement of Paterno to be certain. I have never said that I disagreed that Paterno was Guilty and am not defending him at all....I just don't think the entire program should suffer for his mistake, did not involve the program it involved him!

Can you seperate the program and the coach? Sure you can..... They did in Arkansas. Petrino broke laws, he hired people to keep them close, and he covered up a crime.... no one wants Arkansas to get the Death Penalty, they just fired Petrino and not one sanction to the school or even an investigation.

I know that the crime of Petrino and Paterno's were not comparable in their moral and ethical reach. But they kinda mirror each other when you look at them without thinking about what crime was committed. So why is PSU getting investigated and Arkansas not? Because of the outrage. Neither involved the program, so neither should be punished. Punish the Criminal, not the team!

[Old Tiger]

Not one of the emails or letters implicate Paterno in any way other than to mention his name...... Never said they were unreasonable conclusions, but they were still opinion. Too much grey area surrounding the exact involvement of Paterno to be certain. I have never said that I disagreed that Paterno was Guilty and am not defending him at all....I just don't think the entire program should suffer for his mistake, did not involve the program it involved him!

Can you seperate the program and the coach? Sure you can..... They did in Arkansas. Petrino broke laws, he hired people to keep them close, and he covered up a crime.... no one wants Arkansas to get the Death Penalty, they just fired Petrino and not one sanction to the school or even an investigation.

I know that the crime of Petrino and Paterno's were not comparable in their moral and ethical reach. But they kinda mirror each other when you look at them without thinking about what crime was committed. So why is PSU getting investigated and Arkansas not? Because of the outrage. Neither involved the program, so neither should be punished. Punish the Criminal, not the team!They refer to Paterno as "the coach." Molestation was happening in the football facility and Paterno found out about it but he kept letting Sandusky in the facilities for years to come.


Arkansas thing is totally different and isn't a good comparator in this situation. Why are you so set on protecting one of the most corrupt programs in NCAA history? For all we know this molestation and rape could have gone all the way back to the 70s and 80s.


The athletes at Penn State will not be affected like you make it out to be. They will be able to go where they want without any sitting out. IMO the institution should lose its charter. Only effects the loss of a football program will have will be as gatordaze said. The businesses and employees who rely on Penn State football which is the biggest money maker for that school.

[Old Tiger]

Oh and this



PedPa 'won' game 409 on Oct. 29th, 2011. On Nov. 5, 2011 the Grand Jury presentment was released, just 1 week later. Jerry Sandusky sat in the President's suite for that game. Think about that for one second

[Macarthur]

Not one of the emails or letters implicate Paterno in any way other than to mention his name......

Are you sure?

Some of the report's most damning evidence against Paterno consists of handwritten notes and emails that portray him as being involved with a decision by the school officials not to tell child welfare authorities about the 2001 encounter.

Spanier, Schultz and Curley drew up a plan that called for reporting Sandusky to the state Department of Child Welfare. But Curley later said in an email that he changed his mind about the plan "after giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe."

Spanier concurred but noted "the only downside for us is if the message isn't (heard) and acted upon and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it."

The emails also show Paterno closely followed the 1998 allegation.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8159195/report-says-penn-state-nittany-lions-senior-officials-disregarded-children-welfare

[pirate4state]

let's just drop a bomb on that entire state and be done with it!

[jason]

let's just drop a bomb on that entire state and be done with it!thats where hershey chocolate comes from though

[pirate4state]

thats where hershey chocolate comes from though

lol so many jokes...

[coachc45]

Are you sure?

Some of the report's most damning evidence against Paterno consists of handwritten notes and emails that portray him as being involved with a decision by the school officials not to tell child welfare authorities about the 2001 encounter.

Spanier, Schultz and Curley drew up a plan that called for reporting Sandusky to the state Department of Child Welfare. But Curley later said in an email that he changed his mind about the plan "after giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe."

Spanier concurred but noted "the only downside for us is if the message isn't (heard) and acted upon and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it."

The emails also show Paterno closely followed the 1998 allegation.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8159195/report-says-penn-state-nittany-lions-senior-officials-disregarded-children-welfare

Exactly. It said "after talking it over with Joe".....What was said? No one knows. We can assume, but we don't know yet. I am not defending them and their decision. I just don't think you can punish them without ALL of the facts. Why the rush to punish them now? Why not Wait until you can depose Spanier, Schultz, and Curley and get their sworn testimony on what was said. I think that when its all said and done, we probably will find out that the Freeh report is 98% correct....but until the process plays out I am not willing to concede anything. None of us are privy to the whole story and until it all comes out...I think we are premature to hand out punishment.

Heck, even Sandusky got a trial before he got sentenced.

[Macarthur]

Exactly. It said "after talking it over with Joe".....What was said? No one knows. We can assume, but we don't know yet. I am not defending them and their decision. I just don't think you can punish them without ALL of the facts. Why the rush to punish them now? Why not Wait until you can depose Spanier, Schultz, and Curley and get their sworn testimony on what was said. I think that when its all said and done, we probably will find out that the Freeh report is 98% correct....but until the process plays out I am not willing to concede anything. None of us are privy to the whole story and until it all comes out...I think we are premature to hand out punishment.

Heck, even Sandusky got a trial before he got sentenced.

Well, I don't think any of us are advocating making a decision without all the facts. I'm simply shedding light on your claim that JoePa was a minor player in this, which he clearly was not.

[Old Tiger]

Exactly. It said "after talking it over with Joe".....What was said? No one knows. We can assume, but we don't know yet. I am not defending them and their decision. I just don't think you can punish them without ALL of the facts. Why the rush to punish them now? Why not Wait until you can depose Spanier, Schultz, and Curley and get their sworn testimony on what was said. I think that when its all said and done, we probably will find out that the Freeh report is 98% correct....but until the process plays out I am not willing to concede anything. None of us are privy to the whole story and until it all comes out...I think we are premature to hand out punishment.

Heck, even Sandusky got a trial before he got sentenced.They had a plan they talked it over with joe their initial plan changed. 1+1=2

[coachc45]

They refer to Paterno as "the coach." Molestation was happening in the football facility and Paterno found out about it but he kept letting Sandusky in the facilities for years to come.


Arkansas thing is totally different and isn't a good comparator in this situation. Why are you so set on protecting one of the most corrupt programs in NCAA history? For all we know this molestation and rape could have gone all the way back to the 70s and 80s.


The athletes at Penn State will not be affected like you make it out to be. They will be able to go where they want without any sitting out. IMO the institution should lose its charter. Only effects the loss of a football program will have will be as gatordaze said. The businesses and employees who rely on Penn State football which is the biggest money maker for that school.

How is it not a good comparison. The Arkansas deal only involved the coach, so did this one. Neither involved the PROGRAM.

I take exception to you saying "one of the most corrupt programs in NCAA history." A better description would be one of the most corrupt COACH in NCAA history. But the coach is not the program. Separate the 2. One is not the other. Why are you so set on condemning the whole program when it was covered up by one man. I hate that those kids were molested and I think the people involved should be punished to the full extent of the law, but to say "corrupt program" then you imply the entire thing, and the only person involved was Paterno. The called him "The Coach" for a reason.... he was the coach, they didn't call him "the Program".

I know you will argue that being the coach gave him all this power, and it did no argument here. It gave him the power to cover-up a huge scandal. No doubts about it! But that ain't the football teams fault. Fire him, fire the guys who gave him the control, and prosecute them all. But what the heck did the football team, the assistant coaches, the managers, trainers, water boys or fans do wrong? NOTHING! Punish the culprits! If you want to set an example so other coaches won't do what he did, fire the guys and throw them in prison..... coaches will learn that. Why punish the kids and other people not involved? It makes no sense!

And the Arkansas thing is a great comparator...... if you take the crime out of it, it is exactly the same. ONE MAN committed the crime!

[coachc45]

They had a plan they talked it over with joe their initial plan changed. 1+1=2


Sure..... I don't disagree. But what was his reasons? In order for it to be a program problem he would have to explicitly say ...... don't do it because it hurts my program. Did he? None of us KNOW. You think I am defending the MAN.... Heck no I'm not. I just think you don't blow up the program over the man....blow up the man!

[Old Tiger]

How is it not a good comparison. The Arkansas deal only involved the coach, so did this one. Neither involved the PROGRAM.

I take exception to you saying "one of the most corrupt programs in NCAA history." A better description would be one of the most corrupt COACH in NCAA history. But the coach is not the program. Separate the 2. One is not the other. Why are you so set on condemning the whole program when it was covered up by one man. I hate that those kids were molested and I think the people involved should be punished to the full extent of the law, but to say "corrupt program" then you imply the entire thing, and the only person involved was Paterno. The called him "The Coach" for a reason.... he was the coach, they didn't call him "the Program".

I know you will argue that being the coach gave him all this power, and it did no argument here. It gave him the power to cover-up a huge scandal. No doubts about it! But that ain't the football teams fault. Fire him, fire the guys who gave him the control, and prosecute them all. But what the heck did the football team, the assistant coaches, the managers, trainers, water boys or fans do wrong? NOTHING! Punish the culprits! If you want to set an example so other coaches won't do what he did, fire the guys and throw them in prison..... coaches will learn that. Why punish the kids and other people not involved? It makes no sense!

And the Arkansas thing is a great comparator...... if you take the crime out of it, it is exactly the same. ONE MAN committed the crime!When you have a statue outside the stadium, hell the student section outside of the stadium was called "Paternoville" until recently, buildings named after you, t-shirts sold with his face on it, others sold with his "iconic" glasses, a mural of him painted with a halo above his head(now a ribbon on his chest), and fans wearing Joe Pa mask to games it is a great indicator that Joe Pa is, was, and probably was going to be the face of Penn State. When you think of Penn State you think of Joe Pa and football until this Sandusky thing came up. Joe Pa allowed him to be apart of the program and use the facilities after he resigned.

[coachc45]

Well, I don't think any of us are advocating making a decision without all the facts. I'm simply shedding light on your claim that JoePa was a minor player in this, which he clearly was not.

Where did I claim he was a minor player in this?

[coachc45]

When you have a statue outside the stadium, buildings named after you, t-shirts sold with his face on it, others sold with his "iconic" glasses, and fans wearing Joe Pa mask to games it is a great indicator that Joe Pa is, was, and probably was going to be the face of Penn State. When you think of Penn State you think of Joe Pa and football until this Sandusky thing came up.

So what.... They sell pictures of Obama, t-shirts, and masks. I guess that makes him the country. Dang dude, being the face of the program doesn't make you the entire thing. Crap, did you start hating golf when Tiger screwed up, did you want the Tour shut down....he was the face of the PGA.... but he ain't THE pga. Get a grip.


And you said earlier the kids weren't gonna be hurt.....they can go somewhere else and play. But they don't want to play elsewhere, that is why they chose PSU. And it is being taken from them for something that they didn't do or benefit from..... that is stupid!

[coachc45]

I'm not sure this is accurate. You might want to check PSU's arrest record the last decade. It actually was one of the worst in D1.

And can you really separate the program with the guy running it?

They don't say that cause kids don't screw up.... kids screw up. They say that because they have never had documented cheating going on..... And that is a fact.

[gatordaze]

So what.... They sell pictures of Obama, t-shirts, and masks. I guess that makes him the country. Dang dude, being the face of the program doesn't make you the entire thing. Crap, did you start hating golf when Tiger screwed up, did you want the Tour shut down....he was the face of the PGA.... but he ain't THE pga. Get a grip.


And you said earlier the kids weren't gonna be hurt.....they can go somewhere else and play. But they don't want to play elsewhere, that is why they chose PSU. And it is being taken from them for something that they didn't do or benefit from..... that is stupid!

Many chose PSU because they believed JoePa when he told them that PSU was the cleanest program in the nation. Hiding the truth = unfair competitive advantage and is a big NCAA no no.

[coachc45]

Many chose PSU because they believed JoePa when he told them that PSU was the cleanest program in the nation. Hiding the truth = unfair competitive advantage and is a big NCAA no no.

Gotta give everyone the death penalty then..... Every recruiter in the world lies everyday to get recruits! Give them all the Death Penalty! Give me a break.

[gatordaze]

Gotta give everyone the death penalty then..... Every recruiter in the world lies everyday to get recruits! Give them all the Death Penalty! Give me a break.

Lies about child rape? It really won't matter as top tier players are not going to associate their entire college career with PSU after this. The consequences are already substantial and will drive PSU to the cellar of the B1G

[Old Tiger]

http://www.lostlettermen.com/wp-content/uploads/McQueary-letter.png

[Ranger Mom]

http://www.lostlettermen.com/wp-content/uploads/McQueary-letter.png

Isn't he the only "eye witness" to Sandusky's rape?? How could he even sign that himself??

[gatordaze]

Isn't he the only "eye witness" to Sandusky's rape?? How could he even sign that himself??

My son received the same letter in September before this whole thing blew up. Darn, I thought I had a collectable! So much for my eBay riches plan

[Macarthur]

Where did I claim he was a minor player in this?

My apologizies if I mischaracterized your position.


I read the report and their were no emails from Paterno. The email said that "after talking to Coach Paterno, I have decided to not proceed with our original plan" That is in the Freeh report. Nowhere does it say what that conversation entailed......

This was your quote from earlier. This where I drew that conclusion. You really don't think they were talking about what color to paint JoePa's office? They were clearly talking about the situation and that they should cover it up.

[Macarthur]

Sure..... I don't disagree. But what was his reasons? In order for it to be a program problem he would have to explicitly say ...... don't do it because it hurts my program. Did he? None of us KNOW. You think I am defending the MAN.... Heck no I'm not. I just think you don't blow up the program over the man....blow up the man!

Maybe there's no smoking gun here, coach, but why else would they take the course of action they took if not to protect the image of the school and the program?

[coachc45]

Lies about child rape? It really won't matter as top tier players are not going to associate their entire college career with PSU after this. The consequences are already substantial and will drive PSU to the cellar of the B1G

All I've said throughout this whole thread is the program does not deserve the death penalty. Never once have I condoned anything that went on there. If people decide they do not want to go to Penn State because of this, then that is the right they have. But the NCAA should not be involved in that. The NCAA is put into place to monitor the schools in regards to violations of the NCAA rules and regulations. What they did is not in the scope of the NCAA it is in the scope of the Judicial System. Let the courts do what they want and the consequences of Paterno and the admin will be dealt with by the lack of quality recruits. I just don't want the NCAA to step out of their bounds and create a precedent that they are going to be the MORAL compass of the college world.

[coachc45]

My apologizies if I mischaracterized your position.



This was your quote from earlier. This where I drew that conclusion. You really don't think they were talking about what color to paint JoePa's office? They were clearly talking about the situation and that they should cover it up.

The context was that the Freeh report is not fact. I know that he told them not to, that is an easy inference.....but you don't know what his reasons were. Could've been he didn't want to see a friend hurt, or he didn't think McQueary was credible... this wasn't the first time McQueary had accused a coach and it was unfounded so he could get a full-time job.

[Macarthur]

But the NCAA should not be involved in that. The NCAA is put into place to monitor the schools in regards to violations of the NCAA rules and regulations. What they did is not in the scope of the NCAA it is in the scope of the Judicial System. Let the courts do what they want and the consequences of Paterno and the admin will be dealt with by the lack of quality recruits. I just don't want the NCAA to step out of their bounds and create a precedent that they are going to be the MORAL compass of the college world.

I don't think it's true that the NCAA has no precedent. Probably the closest situation to what we may be seeing here is the Baylor basketball situation. They got one of the harshest penalties ever short of the death penalty. I think it's pretty clear that the NCAA made some MORAL judgements in the punishment handed down on Baylor.

I understand your point and partially sympathize with it, but I think the gravity of this issue is one the NCAA can not ignore and simply allow the criminal court systems to handle it.

[coachc45]

I don't think it's true that the NCAA has no precedent. Probably the closest situation to what we may be seeing here is the Baylor basketball situation. They got one of the harshest penalties ever short of the death penalty. I think it's pretty clear that the NCAA made some MORAL judgements in the punishment handed down on Baylor.

I understand your point and partially sympathize with it, but I think the gravity of this issue is one the NCAA can not ignore and simply allow the criminal court systems to handle it.

Baylor basketball was not just one person involved. It had players and coaches, which if I am not mistaken is what constitutes a program. Penn State only involved Paterno.
I can't equate the 2. Baylor got thrown under the bus due to widespread corruption and multiple violations. Penn State has one corrupt person and no violations......

Death Penalty is not called for.

[bigwood33]

coach, you keep mentioning "the program" and that "the program" wasn't involved. We apparently disagree as the the definition of "the program". In my opinion when the Head Football Coach, the Athletic Director, the Chancellor and the President of the University are all involved in ANY decision, it is a decision of the entire leadership of the university and athletic department and therefore, by default, "the program". I don't advocate the Death Penalty here and don't always agree with the justice handed down by the NCAA, but I also could see the reasoning if the decision is the Death Penalty.

[coachc45]

coach, you keep mentioning "the program" and that "the program" wasn't involved. We apparently disagree as the the definition of "the program". In my opinion when the Head Football Coach, the Athletic Director, the Chancellor and the President of the University are all involved in ANY decision, it is a decision of the entire leadership of the university and athletic department and therefore, by default, "the program". I don't advocate the Death Penalty here and don't always agree with the justice handed down by the NCAA, but I also could see the reasoning if the decision is the Death Penalty.

I see your point, but I don't count the chancellor and president as part of the "program"..... And at a Big school like that, is the AD a part of the program, I don't think so. If he does count as part of it, then every sport in the University is involved in the scandal and deserves the Death Penalty also. I just think that each sport is its own program and should be treated as such.

I would not understand the Death Penalty under these circumstances..... what NCAA rule was broken?

[Macarthur]

I see your point, but I don't count the chancellor and president as part of the "program"..... And at a Big school like that, is the AD a part of the program, I don't think so. If he does count as part of it, then every sport in the University is involved in the scandal and deserves the Death Penalty also. I just think that each sport is its own program and should be treated as such.

I would not understand the Death Penalty under these circumstances..... what NCAA rule was broken?

Fair enough. Reasonable people can disagree. I can say that with the 'Lack of Institutional Control' clause, the NCAA can probably do about anything they want given how vague that is.

[bolshavik]

So Presidents,Chancellor's,A.D's, arent part of the program? Come on man...lol.. You must have some deep seeded love for Penn State to think that way. Bottom line is the NCAA is about to come down extremely hard on Penn State. Just prepare yourself for the worst Coachc so you will not completely lose your mind when it happens. Maybe you can purchase the statue of PedPa when they tear it down. Might make ya feel better

[coachc45]

So Presidents,Chancellor's,A.D's, arent part of the program? Come on man...lol.. You must have some deep seeded love for Penn State to think that way. Bottom line is the NCAA is about to come down extremely hard on Penn State. Just prepare yourself for the worst Coachc so you will not completely lose your mind when it happens. Maybe you can purchase the statue of PedPa when they tear it down. Might make ya feel better

Don't give 2 craps about PSU....just don't think that they deserve the death penalty. I would be this way if it was any school. Joe Paterno screwed up and screwed up BIG. He deserves all the things that happen to his legacy. But the program had no part of it.

[coachc45]

So Presidents,Chancellor's,A.D's, arent part of the program? Come on man...lol.. You must have some deep seeded love for Penn State to think that way. Bottom line is the NCAA is about to come down extremely hard on Penn State. Just prepare yourself for the worst Coachc so you will not completely lose your mind when it happens. Maybe you can purchase the statue of PedPa when they tear it down. Might make ya feel better

Let me ask you a question....If a coach at the High School got caught having sex with a underage girl, and the Principal and Superintendent knew and covered it up, would you be in favor of shutting down the football team because of it?

[bolshavik]

CoachC- Apples and Oranges... High schools are not dependent upon recruiting and money. The cover up was so the school would not lose recruits and money and national prominence. The key here will be lack of institutional control. You do know that now certain board members are resigning so as to show the NCAA that they are trying to gain back some semblance of control in hopes of not getting the Death Penalty. Again, the penalties will be severe and harsh, they have to be to satisfy the nations desire for a resolution for the mis deeds of the University. I just think much like the Saints bounty bowl Penn State will be made an example of. I think it will be so severe that NOBODY would ever dare do anything like this again (Cover up)

[coachc45]

CoachC- Apples and Oranges... High schools are not dependent upon recruiting and money. The cover up was so the school would not lose recruits and money and national prominence. The key here will be lack of institutional control. You do know that now certain board members are resigning so as to show the NCAA that they are trying to gain back some semblance of control in hopes of not getting the Death Penalty. Again, the penalties will be severe and harsh, they have to be to satisfy the nations desire for a resolution for the mis deeds of the University. I just think much like the Saints bounty bowl Penn State will be made an example of. I think it will be so severe that NOBODY would ever dare do anything like this again (Cover up)

Its not "apples to oranges". If you are so hard set on that PSU deserves the Death Penalty then you have to believe that other scenario. You say that the coverup was to keep recruits, money, and national prominence..... how do you know this? Nowhere does it report that these are the reasons. It is logical to assume that these are the reasons, I just prefer to wait until there is proof before I condemn that program. You want to condemn them without due process or proof, that is your business. Just hope that I never see you in a jury box, because that person is in trouble whether they did it or not.

I realize that people are resigning, and it doesn't surprise me.....I also realize that major NCAA sanctions are coming. I just think that with what is in the public scope right now, that it is premature. Why are you so dead set on rushing judgment. Wouldn't it be better, and fair, to let the process play out and then judge. The problem is that so many things get rushed to assuage the almighty Public Opinion....the problem with Public Opinion is the Public does not have all the facts. they only get one side of the story....the side the Media decides to portray. ESPN has given one side to this story from the jump, and I refuse to be Cattle and follow them blindly. Let the truth come completely out and I just may be right here with you, but I AM gonna wait until all the facts are out.

[bolshavik]

Yes, it is apples to oranges. The closest thing you can compare this to is the Baylor scandal where they ATTEMPTED to cover up but got caught. Notice I said ATTEMPTED. PSU did not attempt to cover this up but they were good at it for a good 12 years or so, maybe longer. The NCAA will not like that. They almost gave Baylor the death penalty in basketball because of an attempted cover up. What do you really think the NCAA will do after being duped for 12 years?
You are right, the truth is ALL going to come out, most likely the more truth that comes out the uglier it is going to get for Penn State. I have stated before that this is just the tip of the ice berg. I feel bad for the kids involved that are innocent but they better be looking for another school to transfer to soon.

[bigwood33]

coachc, I really am not trying to be argumentative but I just don't see how "the program" wasn't involved. In addition to my previous comments, Sandusky and some of his victims were flown, by/with the team, to regular season ball games and to bowl games and were comped tickets. Sandusky was given sideline and luxury box access at games and access to the football offices and facilities by "the program's" leaders and he used that access as a perk to lure his victims. I just don't see how that isn't part of "the program".

Also, in regards to whether the AD is part of "the program" or not, surly you would agree that DeLoss Dodds is part of "the program" at UT.

[wimbo_pro]

Coachc...the difference is correctly stated as "money". Paterno and others said nothing because of the affect it would have on the program...MONEY. At a minimum, there should be one year cancellation for an even bigger reason:
Warning!!! If your school allows things like this to go on within your program, your program will be killed.

[coachc45]

coachc, I really am not trying to be argumentative but I just don't see how "the program" wasn't involved. In addition to my previous comments, Sandusky and some of his victims were flown, by/with the team, to regular season ball games and to bowl games and were comped tickets. Sandusky was given sideline and luxury box access at games and access to the football offices and facilities by "the program's" leaders and he used that access as a perk to lure his victims. I just don't see how that isn't part of "the program".

Also, in regards to whether the AD is part of "the program" or not, surly you would agree that DeLoss Dodds is part of "the program" at UT.

Coach I see your point....but I ask you the same question I asked earlier..... If a coach on staff at your school has a relationship with a minor child and people in the district cover it up, should y'alls football program be shut down?

If you say no, what is the difference with Penn State?

I believe the people who committed the crime should be punished, in Penn State's case 99% of the program had no knowledge or gained anything from it so why are they punished?

Someone brought up Baylor, shoot 80% of the people in that program were involved from admin to coaches to players.... not a true comparison. 80% to 1% that is the best you got to compare. I compared it to the closest thing, Arkansas, and y'all told me I was crazy.

[coachc45]

Coachc...the difference is correctly stated as "money". Paterno and others said nothing because of the affect it would have on the program...MONEY. At a minimum, there should be one year cancellation for an even bigger reason:
Warning!!! If your school allows things like this to go on within your program, your program will be killed.

How do you know it was for money? Where does it state any reason? I've looked and I can't find it.

[coachc45]

Yes, it is apples to oranges. The closest thing you can compare this to is the Baylor scandal where they ATTEMPTED to cover up but got caught. Notice I said ATTEMPTED. PSU did not attempt to cover this up but they were good at it for a good 12 years or so, maybe longer. The NCAA will not like that. They almost gave Baylor the death penalty in basketball because of an attempted cover up. What do you really think the NCAA will do after being duped for 12 years?
You are right, the truth is ALL going to come out, most likely the more truth that comes out the uglier it is going to get for Penn State. I have stated before that this is just the tip of the ice berg. I feel bad for the kids involved that are innocent but they better be looking for another school to transfer to soon.

Why is it Apples to Oranges.....because it is high profile? Having sex with kids is having sex with kids.....Apples in this case is Kids, where are the oranges? Cover up is cover up.....Where are the oranges? Program is a program...Where are the oranges?

Help me understand? I don't make sensational leaps very well, I only deal with reality.

[bolshavik]

The "program" did not kill Patrick Denehey but his team mate did at Baylor. The "program" did not try to cover up the reasons why but the Head Basketball coach did. Now, The President at baylor or Chancellorr, or AD was not involved. Now, the HC got caught just trying to cover up a scandal at Baylor and they almost got the death penalty because of LACK OF INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL. Soooooo, PSU hides a scandal for over 12 years or so and the President, Chancellor,AD, HC were all involved in the cover up. Hide and watch PSU will get severe penalties. Now, does that mean I want them to? No, I am just saying they will get HAMMERED when the NCAA chimes in. They will be made an example of.

[wimbo_pro]

How do you know it was for money? Where does it state any reason? I've looked and I can't find it.

Money is the lifeline of any program. Money coming in from donors, boosters, alumni,TV, etc. If a word leaked about this stuff, there would be a scandal, money would be cut off (or severely throttled) and the program would decend. Its ALWAYS about the money. They made a choice, and chose to try and keep things the same...ie., the money flow....and hope it went away. They allowed more boys to be raped. Shut 'er down for the year is the least than can do.

[coachc45]

Money is the lifeline of any program. Money coming in from donors, boosters, alumni,TV, etc. If a word leaked about this stuff, there would be a scandal, money would be cut off (or severely throttled) and the program would decend. Its ALWAYS about the money. They made a choice, and chose to try and keep things the same...ie., the money flow....and hope it went away. They allowed more boys to be raped. Shut 'er down for the year is the least than can do.

Assumption....not fact. Is it a logical assumption? Sure but an assumption just the same. I will agree to the Death Penalty when someone presents fact and not assumptions. It is called due process. I hope I never get accused of a crime in Wimberley, cuz if you are in the jury pool I'm sunk.

All my point is, and has been, let the story play out before punishing the Program or University. Any punishment right now is premature. Why is it so difficult to wait on Proof before judgement.

Just like the Zimmerman/Martin thing. Everyone wanted Zimmerman hung immediately. Then stuff came out about Martin and people changed their mind. Then more stuff about Zimmerman. Then more Martin. How about wait until the investigation, depositions, trials et al... then start a thread about what should be done? Cuz it is soooo much easier to just take the stuff ESPN feeds us and form a conclusion and let emotion outrage us.

[bigwood33]

Coach I see your point....but I ask you the same question I asked earlier..... If a coach on staff at your school has a relationship with a minor child and people in the district cover it up, should y'alls football program be shut down?

If you say no, what is the difference with Penn State?

I believe the people who committed the crime should be punished, in Penn State's case 99% of the program had no knowledge or gained anything from it so why are they punished?

Someone brought up Baylor, shoot 80% of the people in that program were involved from admin to coaches to players.... not a true comparison. 80% to 1% that is the best you got to compare. I compared it to the closest thing, Arkansas, and y'all told me I was crazy.
coachc, I am not saying that you are wrong, I am just saying that I can understand the case for major sanctions, whatever they may be.
The reason that Bobby Petrino was fired is he lied to his boss, the AD. It's as simple as that. He was having an affair and didn't want his wife or his boss to find out that he had hired the woman that he was having an affair with in the football office. When he tried to cover it up, he became a liability and he got canned. The AD made sure that the program was protected.
As I said, I have no axe to grind and I personally think that any punishment should be handled by the legal system but can certainly see and understand the possibility that the NCAA will get involved.
As to your question regarding our program. Hypothetically, if a coach or former coach were allowed to continue a pattern of molestation and utilized our facilities and used our football camp to recruit victims and we knew that he was a problem, then yes, we deserve to be shut down.
In my opinion, that is what was allowed to happen at PSU with Sandusky.

[coachc45]

coachc, I am not saying that you are wrong, I am just saying that I can understand the case for major sanctions, whatever they may be.
The reason that Bobby Petrino was fired is he lied to his boss, the AD. It's as simple as that. He was having an affair and didn't want his wife or his boss to find out that he had hired the woman that he was having an affair with in the football office. When he tried to cover it up, he became a liability and he got canned. The AD made sure that the program was protected.
As I said, I have no axe to grind and I personally think that any punishment should be handled by the legal system but can certainly see and understand the possibility that the NCAA will get involved.
As to your question regarding our program. Hypothetically, if a coach or former coach were allowed to continue a pattern of molestation and utilized our facilities and used our football camp to recruit victims and we knew that he was a problem, then yes, we deserve to be shut down.
In my opinion, that is what was allowed to happen at PSU with Sandusky.

I can understand if sanctions are handed down after due process. What I have been beating my barely alive horse about is that is too soon to make those judgements yet. But you do make good arguments. A whole lot more sense then throwing out the "money" thing. Enjoyed the banter.

Now to get ready for a long season.... Good Luck this year!

[bigwood33]

Now to get ready for a long season.... Good Luck this year!
You too! It won't be long now.

[bolshavik]

I am just predicting that Penn State will suffer dearly by the sanctions imposed by the NCAA. It will not be pretty.

[lv2937]

I am just predicting that Penn State will suffer dearly by the sanctions imposed by the NCAA. It will not be pretty.seen on the news that the statue of papa joe was coming down tomorrow.

[coachc45]

seen on the news that the statue of papa joe was coming down tomorrow.

Not true...... Here is the link to ESPN and the decision to moving the statue (they do a real good job of reporting news when they decide to)

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8184260/joe-paterno-statue-call-made-penn-state-nittany-lions-president

[wimbo_pro]

Assumption....not fact. Is it a logical assumption? Sure but an assumption just the same. I will agree to the Death Penalty when someone presents fact and not assumptions. It is called due process. I hope I never get accused of a crime in Wimberley, cuz if you are in the jury pool I'm sunk.

All my point is, and has been, let the story play out before punishing the Program or University. Any punishment right now is premature. Why is it so difficult to wait on Proof before judgement.

Just like the Zimmerman/Martin thing. Everyone wanted Zimmerman hung immediately. Then stuff came out about Martin and people changed their mind. Then more stuff about Zimmerman. Then more Martin. How about wait until the investigation, depositions, trials et al... then start a thread about what should be done? Cuz it is soooo much easier to just take the stuff ESPN feeds us and form a conclusion and let emotion outrage us.

Ummm...Zandusky is convicted and the Freih report is out...what are you waiting for..??..the hand of God to write it in the clouds for you? I can tell, Coachc, that its apparently more about the game of football for you than it is what they allowed to happen to young boys. Thats fine...but it makes me wonder about YOUR jury capabilities.

[regaleagle]

It's unfortunate that what has happened at Penn State will have two sets of victims...those molested by Sandusky and all the others that have been misled, lied to, and generally cheated out of a fair opportunity to enjoy the rewards of being part of a major institution that is supposed to represent the best in higher education, leadership, and ethical standards. This did not have to happen, but it did. These are the facts. Now comes the backlash and eventual disciplinary actions that are justified and necessary in order for our system of laws to have meaning and prevail in the face of corruption.

[wimbo_pro]

Well said, Regal...and hello!!!!

[Manso/V8]

I have never liked Penn State. This whole Sandusky, Joe Pa thing disgusts me.
I wish it never happened but it did. Now I wish it would all go away along with the program.

[coachc45]

Ummm...Zandusky is convicted and the Freih report is out...what are you waiting for..??..the hand of God to write it in the clouds for you? I can tell, Coachc, that its apparently more about the game of football for you than it is what they allowed to happen to young boys. Thats fine...but it makes me wonder about YOUR jury capabilities.

The Freeh report does not say anything other than "After talking to Joe I've decided to not implement our plan" It does not give a Reason. YOU keep trying to tell us the REASON. And I would be a great juror....I wait until the end of the trial and ALL evidence is in before I decide Guilt! Wouldn't you want that if your AZZ was on the line?

I am not all about the Football as you put. I know Sandusky is Guilty and he will be punished. I know Paterno is guilty, but his death stopped him from being punished. We know the Pres, Chancellor, and AD are guilty and they will be punished. But tell what is gained by punishing the football team? THEY DIDN'T DO IT!!!!! Does it make you feel better to Punish people not involved? Will it change what happened? What is your motivation?

The kids at Penn State did nothing wrong and taking away the football program takes away a tool that they can heal. I am a big advocate of Victim's rights, but it seems y'all don't see that the People who Love the University and had nothing to do with it want to heal also. I am sorry that I am not narrow-minded and can see beyond my personal outrage and emotions. I am also sorry I tried to convince you people also.

Regal--- I agree that punishments should be handed out..... but not the death penalty for the program! Killing that program does nothing to help the healing process of those 2nd victim's you name.

[coachc45]

Well said, Regal...and hello!!!!


Hello back.....I'm all for the LAW being enforced! Have you read my posts?

The problem is, the NCAA ain't the Law. They don't need to give the Death Penalty. How about you tell me what is gained by the Death Penalty?

And don't tell me it will deter other people....If you think that Sandusky going to Jail for life won't deter a Coach from being a Child Molester, then something is wrong with you. If you think that Losing your job and going to prison isn't enough to deter other Admins from covering up a scandal is wrong, then how will the death Penalty. "I lost my job and am in Prison.....but I would still do it, wait OH No they cancelled the football team; now I learned!" Come on now.

[coachc45]

I have never liked Penn State. This whole Sandusky, Joe Pa thing disgusts me.
I wish it never happened but it did. Now I wish it would all go away along with the program.

It disgusts me too.....but how does dropping footall help?

[bolshavik]

Kids??? lol..Since when are 18-24 y.o. men kids? This is not about punishing "kids" it is about punishing Penn State. This is such a heinous act that it will demand drastic measures to satisfy the masses. Kids were molested (multiple kids) on PSU campus and in football showers. Death Penalty is coming I believe.

[wimbo_pro]

Hello back.....I'm all for the LAW being enforced! Have you read my posts?

The problem is, the NCAA ain't the Law. They don't need to give the Death Penalty. How about you tell me what is gained by the Death Penalty?

And don't tell me it will deter other people....If you think that Sandusky going to Jail for life won't deter a Coach from being a Child Molester, then something is wrong with you. If you think that Losing your job and going to prison isn't enough to deter other Admins from covering up a scandal is wrong, then how will the death Penalty. "I lost my job and am in Prison.....but I would still do it, wait OH No they cancelled the football team; now I learned!" Come on now.

You're lost, Coachc. Plain lost. Something is definitely wrong with you if you don't see this as a violoation of trust by PENN STATE, and not just a couple people, you are totally lost.

[regaleagle]

Coachc, there are laws that we try to live by that are called "moral" laws. These laws are not written into the legal system, but in the hearts of men. Certainly, you have to admit that what happened at Penn State crossed the line of morality in every way. The university and its board members must be held accountable, and all that is connected to the university will naturally suffer the consequences as well, esp. the cash cow...football. That is simply the best way to discipline this kind of corruption. If the football program were allowed to go untouched under these circumstances, what message would the NCAA be sending to all the other member schools and to the viewing public in general??? Now it's just a matter of exactly what kind of disciplinary action will be imposed and for how long. You can bet your last dollar that the football team will be included in the sanctions...its the main reason the coverup happened in the first place, LOL!!! But no one is laughing.

[coachc45]

Regal---- here is a quote from me....."I know Sandusky is Guilty and he will be punished. I know Paterno is guilty, but his death stopped him from being punished. We know the Pres, Chancellor, and AD are guilty and they will be punished. But tell what is gained by punishing the football team? THEY DIDN'T DO IT!!!!! Does it make you feel better to Punish people not involved? Will it change what happened? What is your motivation?"

Does it sound like I don't understand Morality?



What kind of message would be sent by the NCAA..... a simple one, it is we are not the MORAL police, we are a governing body that enforces the rules set forth by our members. It is not our job to shut down a Program where 99% of its members did NO wrong.. It is the Punish the people who did.

Morals extend to not punishing innocent people for the sins of others, at least that was what I was taught growing up...

[coachc45]

You're lost, Coachc. Plain lost. Something is definitely wrong with you if you don't see this as a violoation of trust by PENN STATE, and not just a couple people, you are totally lost.


Dude I'm not lost.... If you would read what I said, nowhere do I condone anything that went on there. I condemn it over and over throughout this thread! You can read right?

I do, however, think you are lost. There is not one thread of evidence that anyone on that football team did anything wrong beside Paterno. He was fired and would've been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. What good comes from Shutting Down the Football Team? Tell me, I'd like to know.... Really!

PENN STATE did not violate anyone's trust, you see PENN STATE is an inanimate object. The people in charge violated trust... they were fired and will soon be in Jail following a trial! If the football team is proven to have been a part of it, then by all means SHUT THEM DOWN.

[coachc45]

Kids??? lol..Since when are 18-24 y.o. men kids? This is not about punishing "kids" it is about punishing Penn State. This is such a heinous act that it will demand drastic measures to satisfy the masses. Kids
were molested (multiple kids) on PSU campus and in football showers. Death Penalty is coming I believe.


I am 44 years old and happen to have 2 sons of my own in this age range....and yes they are still kids! Ask any person who is older and more experienced, I think they will feel the same way!

Am I gonna get blasted for this too?

I really get tired of having to say the same thing over and over...... But for Clarification I will one last time:

1. I agree Sandusky was wrong, guilty, and deserving of any punishment he gets (and probably worse)!

2. I agree Paterno was wrong, guilty, and deserving of the same punishment as Sandusky!

3. I agree the AD, President, and Chancelor were wrong, guilty, and deserving of the same as Sandusky!

4 I disagree that the FOOTBALL team is guilty and deserves the DEATH Penalty!


I tried to type slow for you people who have had problems comprehending what I've said!

[coachc45]

Coachc, there are laws that we try to live by that are called "moral" laws. These laws are not written into the legal system, but in the hearts of men. Certainly, you have to admit that what happened at Penn State crossed the line of morality in every way. The university and its board members must be held accountable, and all that is connected to the university will naturally suffer the consequences as well, esp. the cash cow...football. That is simply the best way to discipline this kind of corruption. If the football program were allowed to go untouched under these circumstances, what message would the NCAA be sending to all the other member schools and to the viewing public in general??? Now it's just a matter of exactly what kind of disciplinary action will be imposed and for how long. You can bet your last dollar that the football team will be included in the sanctions...its the main reason the coverup happened in the first place, LOL!!! But no one is laughing.


Regal... you seem like an intelligent man, so I ask you this.... Whose job is it to enforce "moral" laws? Is it the Government? Or is it the people of the community? Or is it each man has the responsibility to enforce them upon himself?

I think I know what you are going to say, sorrect me if I am wrong.... but you do not think it is the government's responsibility to tell you what is "moral or immoral". To go one step further, I think you would be mad as heck if the government tried to force its idea of morality on you, if they made "morality laws" and then arrested you for breaking their idea of moral.... or for Punishing you for doing something that is immoral in their eyes. I think that you would say that it is the governments job to enforce the LAW and leave morals to you...... It is in our Constitution and our Country was built upon these Principles.

the NCAA is a "governing" body is it not i.e. Government right. So why is it their job to punish someone for morals? It is their job to enforce the rules agreed upon by the member schools as pertaining to Athletics. Nowhere in the bylaws does it have jurisdiction to determine this, unless they Loosely use the catchall clause "institutional control" which was made to include Boosters who are not included in the University, but act on the Universities behalf....It was never meant as a morality clause and it shouldn't be used as one.

Just trying to get passed the Outrage and emotion and use an Intelligent argument.

[wimbo_pro]

I tried to type slow for you people who have had problems comprehending what I've said!

No need to type slow, Coachc. We get it. You have come through loud and clear. Enjoy the upcoming season.

[regaleagle]

Seems to me and many others following this story that the connection of the football program in particular to the coverup is considered as one of the main reasons for the loss of institutional control at the highest levels at Penn State University. Protecting the cash cow and sending the ethical standards down the river was the very cause of the loss of institutional control. Therefore, the football program is directly connected to the events that transpired and must be included in the disciplinary actions that will be forthcoming. Like I stated previously, there will be two sets of victims in this whole ordeal, and that part is very unfortunate for those that just happened to be part of the university system, and the football program in particular. The connection is direct.

[wimbo_pro]

Seems to me and many others following this story that the connection of the football program in particular to the coverup is considered as one of the main reasons for the loss of institutional control at the highest levels at Penn State University. Protecting the cash cow and sending the ethical standards down the river was the very cause of the loss of institutional control. Therefore, the football program is directly connected to the events that transpired and must be included in the disciplinary actions that will be forthcoming. Like I stated previously, there will be two sets of victims in this whole ordeal, and that part is very unfortunate for those that just happened to be part of the university system, and the football program in particular. The connection is direct.

It's useless Regal...Coachc sees no connection to the school and the program's actions as being one...he doesnt see (or accept) that the actions of the school and the program are inextricably linked as one. It's that kind of thinking that allowed more boys to be raped. PROVE IT!! RUMORS!!! NO ONE PROVEN GUILTY!! LET THE BOY PROVE IT!!! NO JURY HAS SPOKEN!! This is what THEY said since 1998...if not earlier. This is the same mind-game played for years. Oh sure...he gets it now...how could he not?? But I would bet he was one of those who said "the boys could be lying" ..."a few rumors and accusations arent a conviction"..."don't hold the team responsible, even though every one in charge of guiding the team is part of the dirty secret"...all to allow the game to go on. Its all about the game. The game MUST go on!!! Who is truly lost here?

[Manso/V8]

There comes a time when it is appropriate to stop beating a horse, for sure when it is dead.

[coachc45]

It's useless Regal...Coachc sees no connection to the school and the program's actions as being one...he doesnt see (or accept) that the actions of the school and the program are inextricably linked as one. It's that kind of thinking that allowed more boys to be raped. PROVE IT!! RUMORS!!! NO ONE PROVEN GUILTY!! LET THE BOY PROVE IT!!! NO JURY HAS SPOKEN!! This is what THEY said since 1998...if not earlier. This is the same mind-game played for years. Oh sure...he gets it now...how could he not?? But I would bet he was one of those who said "the boys could be lying" ..."a few rumors and accusations arent a conviction"..."don't hold the team responsible, even though every one in charge of guiding the team is part of the dirty secret"...all to allow the game to go on. Its all about the game. The game MUST go on!!! Who is truly lost here?


Dude you really have lost your grip haven't you! I have only said "prove it" to you. You keep throwing out facts that don't exist.

As far as the game, I love the game! NO doubts about it! But if what you gather from what I have said on here lets you believe I want the game to go on to protect the game....then your comprehension skills are very poor. I have not at anytime talked about the game.... just what I see as an injustice. The leaders of the Program (your words) have been or will be punished. Why isn't that enough, Why punish the people not involved. Only 1 person on that team (2 if you count the AD) have been linked to wrong doing right? Or did I miss something?

If the school was involved....why not shut the doors? Where does it end?

Not to change the subject, but wasn't there a scandal in Wimbo the year before last? Where was your condescending attitude then?

[coachc45]

There comes a time when it is appropriate to stop beating a horse, for sure when it is dead.

Totally agree....but kinda hard when it is on TV everyday, seems to be alive and kicking!

[coachc45]

Seems to me and many others following this story that the connection of the football program in particular to the coverup is considered as one of the main reasons for the loss of institutional control at the highest levels at Penn State University. Protecting the cash cow and sending the ethical standards down the river was the very cause of the loss of institutional control. Therefore, the football program is directly connected to the events that transpired and must be included in the disciplinary actions that will be forthcoming. Like I stated previously, there will be two sets of victims in this whole ordeal, and that part is very unfortunate for those that just happened to be part of the university system, and the football program in particular. The connection is direct.


I don't disagree with you it, does seem that way.....but that still comes back to an assumption of guilt does it not? Where does it say that the Coverup was done to protect the "cash cow"? It doesn't which makes it an assumption. Don't state as fact what is clearly an assumption.

The facts will come out. During the trial the Leadership of Penn State will be asked those questions and we will know for sure. If they say that they did it to benefit the program, then lets revisit this....... All I've asked from the first day I've posted on this is to reserve judgement until all the facts are in.... then Judge away. Course, NOT ONE person has understood that.

Why rush to Judgement? Should the NCAA Punish the school now and then find out later that the Program wasn't the underlying reason and they have to pick up the pieces anyway? Or would it be better to wait a year and then do it? Either way it gets done but the 2nd way makes sure it is done for the right reasons.

[coachc45]

It's useless Regal...Coachc sees no connection to the school and the program's actions as being one...he doesnt see (or accept) that the actions of the school and the program are inextricably linked as one. It's that kind of thinking that allowed more boys to be raped. PROVE IT!! RUMORS!!! NO ONE PROVEN GUILTY!! LET THE BOY PROVE IT!!! NO JURY HAS SPOKEN!! This is what THEY said since 1998...if not earlier. This is the same mind-game played for years. Oh sure...he gets it now...how could he not?? But I would bet he was one of those who said "the boys could be lying" ..."a few rumors and accusations arent a conviction"..."don't hold the team responsible, even though every one in charge of guiding the team is part of the dirty secret"...all to allow the game to go on. Its all about the game. The game MUST go on!!! Who is truly lost here?

Question my logic all you want....Question my Intelligence all you want..... But dude you don't know me from Adam and you have the GALL to question my Integrity?!?!?!? Really?!?!?! Are you really getting angry enough over the fact that I disagree with you that you throw out baseless Accusations? Really?!?!?

Do you really want to go there?

[coachc45]

Read this on a blog here a while ago, thought it would be appropriate here....

Regaleagle wrote....."It's never a mistake to question things. Or to bring up a subject for discussion that many find puzzling to get the perspective of others. The exchange of information and ideas among people is a healthy thing, and what makes a forum interesting in the first place."

[regaleagle]

Well, Gosh. I reckon I'll hafta admit that I do believe in what I wrote. And btw coachc, I'm not condemning you or personally attacking your postings regarding this Penn State delimma. Some of the points you brought to light have merit, and casts a different perspective to the issues. I was merely pointing out some of the issues involved and how I personally view what may eventually happen to Penn State as a result, considering all aspects of what is known so far. My postings represented my opinions and I felt that others posting to this thread may have felt the same way. Nothing personal. And it is a healthy thing to get the perspective of others in most discussions on a topic just such as this one. I feel much better now, and healthier too...thanks.

[coachc45]

Well, Gosh. I reckon I'll hafta admit that I do believe in what I wrote. And btw coachc, I'm not condemning you or personally attacking your postings regarding this Penn State delimma. Some of the points you brought to light have merit, and casts a different perspective to the issues. I was merely pointing out some of the issues involved and how I personally view what may eventually happen to Penn State as a result, considering all aspects of what is known so far. My postings represented my opinions and I felt that others posting to this thread may have felt the same way. Nothing personal. And it is a healthy thing to get the perspective of others in most discussions on a topic just such as this one. I feel much better now, and healthier too...thanks.


Never took anything you said personal.... you have kept everything between us very respectful, as I have with you. Have very much enjoyed our debate.

This post was more to show a couple other people that have gone a little overboard and attacking me personally how to really do this. It was meant as a compliment to you, not an indictment.

I did kinda take offense to the dude who implied I was condoning the actions of those men or would defend them. I don't get mad on these boards very often, but that was a little out of line. Was hoping my last quote would defuse the situation.

[regaleagle]

I think it did, and the beat goes on. Part of the drawing card to a forum like this is being able to express your opinions and reading the opinions of others. What we say on here or may not say has no bearing on what actually happens, anyway. It's just a platform for us to voice our opinions and get feedback from others that may help us(or entertain us) to understand more on topics of of interest we all share...mainly football.

[bigwood33]

Dateline, July 22, 7:15 AM and I'm watching on ESPN 2 the removal of the Joe Paterno statue is being removed.

[Ville]

Glad they took it down. He isn't a hero and damn sure don't deserve a statue in his honor. Now the question is where to put it. Needs to be melted down and destroyed forever. He should be in jail if he wasent dead.

[wimbo_pro]

Never took anything you said personal.... you have kept everything between us very respectful, as I have with you. Have very much enjoyed our debate.

This post was more to show a couple other people that have gone a little overboard and attacking me personally how to really do this. It was meant as a compliment to you, not an indictment.

I did kinda take offense to the dude who implied I was condoning the actions of those men or would defend them. I don't get mad on these boards very often, but that was a little out of line. Was hoping my last quote would defuse the situation.

First...YOU started the personal attacks Coachc...so stop whining like a little girl and toughen up. Secondly, I didnt imply you would defend the people who did this...I implied you would defend the football program for the sake of football. Big difference.

[NastySlot]

punishment soon to come...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-57477382/ncaa-source-unprecedented-penalties-against-penn-state

[Bullaholic]

It is sometimes very hard to understand discussions like this one in the modern era. Individuals who try to state an opinion on any contentious issue are usually branded very early on by those with a different view with terms such as racist, sexist, bleeding heart, gay, or worse, in order to score what they perceive, and hope others do, as a correct, superior argument.

I am acquainted with most of the posters on this thread, and I haven't read anything in this thread which would even remotely suggest that anyone even begins to support child molestation by anyone in any shape or form. However, there have been some posts which have flirted with suggestion that anyone who does not support the death penalty for the Penn State football program, is suspect of being soft on child molestation. I don't agree at all with this position, and without putting words in coach's mouth, I think this is what he is feeling and trying to explain. If he is "whining"---give me a box of tissues, too.

[bolshavik]

Told ya boys, the statue was coming down and mark this down too coachc45 - PSU WILL GET THE DEATH PENALTY.

[wimbo_pro]

It is sometimes very hard to understand discussions like this one in the modern era. Individuals who try to state an opinion on any contentious issue are usually branded very early on by those with a different view with terms such as racist, sexist, bleeding heart, gay, or worse, in order to score what they perceive, and hope others do, as a correct, superior argument.

I am acquainted with most of the posters on this thread, and I haven't read anything in this thread which would even remotely suggest that anyone even begins to support child molestation by anyone in any shape or form. However, there have been some posts which have flirted with suggestion that anyone who does not support the death penalty for the Penn State football program, is suspect of being soft on child molestation. I don't agree at all with this position, and without putting words in coach's mouth, I think this is what he is feeling and trying to explain. If he is "whining"---give me a box of tissues, too.
Fair enough Bull, I trust your opinion...then I apologize to Coachc if what I said (or more like, the way I said it) was taken as any hint that he approved of molestation. I re-read my posts, and still don't think I ever implied he approved of molestation. But anyways...I was trying to imply it was for the sake of the game of football, I think I was pretty clear about that. But lets also be clear about the first shot fired across the bow of making this a personal issue was by Coachc...post #92, unprovoked. I took offense and fired back. So therefore, he needs to toughen up.

[bolshavik]

It wont be called the death penalty but it will be worse than the death penalty.

[bigwood33]

It wont be called the death penalty but it will be worse than the death penalty.
You may be right and it sure looks bleak for PSU. The thing that some on this board may find distasteful is the apparent glee that you seem to be enjoying in the demise of Penn State football. I am certainly no PSU fan, count me as an old SWC guy, but it will be a sad day for college football if/when the PSU football program is hammered.
The whole thing is a travesty and whatever the decision by the NCAA, there are no winners here...only losers. Some, like the players, coaches and fans of PSU football and all of those who came through the program before, lose more than others. Some of us who still want to believe the best in people, lose a little more hope that anyone really does things the right way. We are all angry about what happened at PSU and empathetic for the victims. We have all been lessened by this.
Some people, in their blood lust, want to lead the lynch mob. Quite frankly, I don't understand them.

[Bullaholic]

Fair enough Bull, I trust your opinion...then I apologize to Coachc if what I said (or more like, the way I said it) was taken as any hint that he approved of molestation. I re-read my posts, and still don't think I ever implied he approved of molestation. But anyways...I was trying to imply it was for the sake of the game of football, I think I was pretty clear about that. But lets also be clear about the first shot fired across the bow of making this a personal issue was by Coachc...post #92, unprovoked. I took offense and fired back. So therefore, he needs to toughen up.

Most everyone means well, wimbo, and all will be well when the smoke finally clears.

You're the one who had better toughen up---you know everybody will be gunning for Wimberley this season. :D

[coachc45]

First...YOU started the personal attacks Coachc...so stop whining like a little girl and toughen up. Secondly, I didnt imply you would defend the people who did this...I implied you would defend the football program for the sake of football. Big difference.

Where did I start a personal attack.... I stated I wouldn't want you on a Jury, due to the fact that you have already determined punishment without Due Process. How is that a personal attack? I in no way attacked you. Has their been due process? No. Have you made your mind up? Yes. Sorry if that offended you.

What you did was take my argument, that we should wait until the process has been completed before we pass judgement, and said I was soft on Child Molestation. That I would make excuses for the guilty. And I should toughen up? Really?

[coachc45]

"Assumption....not fact. Is it a logical assumption? Sure but an assumption just the same. I will agree to the Death Penalty when someone presents fact and not assumptions. It is called due process. I hope I never get accused of a crime in Wimberley, cuz if you are in the jury pool I'm sunk."


So that was what you took offense too.....and I need to "toughen Up".... If what I said was offensive I apologize.

Your comments...... "But I would bet he was one of those who said "the boys could be lying" ..."a few rumors and accusations arent a conviction"..."don't hold the team responsible, even though every one in charge of guiding the team is part of the dirty secret"...all to allow the game to go on. Its all about the game. The game MUST go on!!! Who is truly lost here?

Sure you didn't imply anything..... it was all really Harmless.

Who needs to toughen up here?

[coachc45]

Told ya boys, the statue was coming down and mark this down too coachc45 - PSU WILL GET THE DEATH PENALTY.

So are they getting the Death Penalty or not? You've been adamant that they are even on this quote.... Then ESPN reports that they aren't getting the Death Penalty you come back with.....

"It wont be called the death penalty but it will be worse than the death penalty."

Why do you take such personal GLEE in this. The bad part is that what you have said I should mark down isn't happening and then you spin it to make it worse.

Have a nice day.

[coachc45]

Saw this on ESPN.com...... Former NCAA Chairman and current Commissioner is interviewed.... Good Read.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8188629/penn-state-nittany-lions-not-facing-death-penalty-monday-ncaa-source-says

[wimbo_pro]

Most everyone means well, wimbo, and all will be well when the smoke finally clears.

You're the one who had better toughen up---you know everybody will be gunning for Wimberley this season. :D
LOL...well, that goes with the territory of being a Champion, right?

[bolshavik]

PSU is Yankee football. They built their image on a huge line of B.S. If yall want to support them and wish them well then so be it. I for one do not tolerate kids being molested systematically by inept institutional lack of control of old geysers. Who lets a coach in his mid 80's be the HC of a major university?

[coachc45]

PSU is Yankee football. They built their image on a huge line of B.S. If yall want to support them and wish them well then so be it. I for one do not tolerate kids being molested systematically by inept institutional lack of control of old geysers. Who lets a coach in his mid 80's be the HC of a major university?


I don't support PSU...just think that they don't deserve the Death Penalty...... Oh if you read the article I posted, the guy quoted basically says that the NCAA punishing them is outside of their Power and will be challenged upon appeal and possibly law suits. He also says that it will be done without Due Process and is a Knee Jerk reaction that will also have to defended upon appeal and will be extremely difficult to uphold.

So, basically, the NCAA is rushing to judge due to public pressure and will have a hard time enforcing their punishment under appeal..... So why not wait and give due process?

[Tejastrue]

I can't help but think about the victims when talking about this. First and foremost the kids and their families. I do however feel remorse for the Paterno family. Now they must watch as their deceased father/husband is being ridiculed by the court of public opinion. In my heart of hearts I want to believe that Joe was just old school and trusted a friend as old school people do. That was his downfall. What about the Sandusky family..finding out their father/husband/sibling has been a sick, vile, child predator for decades now. For those who chose to look the other way or purposely/knowingly hid the facts for the best interest of Penn State..well.. you are the scum of the earth and I'm not sure if there is a legal punishment here in the states that would suffice..especially for Sandusky himself. Still, these were criminal acts and all involved should be dealt with through the court system..not the NCAA. The select few that were involved..not the University itself should be prosecuted to the full extent that's allowed. I've never been a believer of punishing the masses for the acts of a few.

[wimbo_pro]

I can't help but think about the victims when talking about this. First and foremost the kids and their families. I do however feel remorse for the Paterno family. Now they must watch as their deceased father/husband is being ridiculed by the court of public opinion. In my heart of hearts I want to believe that Joe was just old school and trusted a friend as old school people do. That was his downfall. What about the Sandusky family..finding out their father/husband/sibling has been a sick, vile, child predator for decades now. For those who chose to look the other way or purposely/knowingly hid the facts for the best interest of Penn State..well.. you are the scum of the earth and I'm not sure if there is a legal punishment here in the states that would suffice..especially for Sandusky himself. Still, these were criminal acts and all involved should be dealt with through the court system..not the NCAA. The select few that were involved..not the University itself should be prosecuted to the full extent that's allowed. I've never been a believer of punishing the masses for the acts of a few.

Well said...except one thing. It was covered up by "the system" of Penn State. JoPa knew about it for decades. Those above him knew about it for decades. It's simply the truth. How did they sleep at night? Even JoPa said before he died that he hadnt spoken with his close friend of all those years since the incident in the 90's. My God...what does this tell you? This is very, very sad. JoPa is now relegated to the back pages of history. He deserves it.

[Tejastrue]

Well said...except one thing. It was covered up by "the system" of Penn State. JoPa knew about it for decades. Those above him knew about it for decades. It's simply the truth. How did they sleep at night? Even JoPa said before he died that he hadnt spoken with his close friend of all those years since the incident in the 90's. My God...what does this tell you? This is very, very sad. JoPa is now relegated to the back pages of history. He deserves it.

What did Sandusky have on anybody that allowed him to remain within "the system" as you call it? Was he untouchable because of JoPa or did it go way beyond that? It sounds like JoPa washed his hands of it thus the "hadn't spoke to him in years" statement. If he knew this was happening, most definitely he deserves it. I could see though, if they were close friends he might choose not to believe such a friend could carry out these horrible acts. It is indeed very, very sad.

[coachc45]

What did Sandusky have on anybody that allowed him to remain within "the system" as you call it? Was he untouchable because of JoPa or did it go way beyond that? It sounds like JoPa washed his hands of it thus the "hadn't spoke to him in years" statement. If he knew this was happening, most definitely he deserves it. I could see though, if they were close friends he might choose not to believe such a friend could carry out these horrible acts. It is indeed very, very sad.

The 98 incident was reported to authorities and investigated but there was not enough evidence to prosecute. Paterno made him retire and part of the package negotiated by the University was the Fellowship he had. Paterno cut off contact because he was disappointed.

[wimbo_pro]

What did Sandusky have on anybody that allowed him to remain within "the system" as you call it? Was he untouchable because of JoPa or did it go way beyond that? It sounds like JoPa washed his hands of it thus the "hadn't spoke to him in years" statement. If he knew this was happening, most definitely he deserves it. I could see though, if they were close friends he might choose not to believe such a friend could carry out these horrible acts. It is indeed very, very sad.

They were all away of the charges from the boy in San Antonio years ago, and more since that incident. There is no reason or excuse that can be justified...no matter what it is.

[Manso/V8]

I hate hearing and reading about these kinds of vile criminal acts and try to avoid the details of news like this. So, forgive me if I am not up to date on who knew or said what and when. Overall, I get the distinct sense that any turning of a blind eye, lack of action, sweeping under the rug, or outright coverup by JoePa, the athletic director, university president, and/or others was driven by the desire to avoid scandal and protect Penn State Football and the money train and religion it has become for the school, alumni, and the town. You have a situation where the voracity of the Penn State Football uber alles culture has superceded basic human dignity and obliterated the line between right and wrong. This kind of culture needs to be destroyed. As much as we love our football in Texas, I can't imagine this kind of situation festering for years in a program here. Is it the NCAA's role to destroy this culture, I am not sure. Is it the state of Pennsylvania's role, most likely. If the PA state legislator doesn't take harsh action, then maybe the Big 10 and other football programs should......simply refuse to schedule them for a few years.

[wimbo_pro]

I hate hearing and reading about these kinds of vile criminal acts and try to avoid the details of news like this. So, forgive me if I am not up to date on who knew or said what and when. Overall, I get the distinct sense that any turning of a blind eye, lack of action, sweeping under the rug, or outright coverup by JoePa, the athletic director, university president, and/or others was driven by the desire to avoid scandal and protect Penn State Football and the money train and religion it has become for the school, alumni, and the town. You have a situation where the voracity of the Penn State Football uber alles culture has superceded basic human dignity and obliterated the line between right and wrong. This kind of culture needs to be destroyed. As much as we love our football in Texas, I can't imagine this kind of situation festering for years in a program here. Is it the NCAA's role to destroy this culture, I am not sure. Is it the state of Pennsylvania's role, most likely. If the PA state legislator doesn't take harsh action, then maybe the Big 10 and other football programs should......simply refuse to schedule them for a few years.

Agreed. Let the death penalty be a warning to all...you think you are protecting the program by keeping silent, when i reality, you are assuring its destruction.

[Tejastrue]

Why am I reminded of the days of heretics and witch burning?

[Manso/V8]

Why am I reminded of the days of heretics and witch burning?

because you have been eating moldy grain (ergot poisoning)?

[bigwood33]

Here's my prediction:
Loss of 8-10 scholarships over the next 2 years and a bowl ban for 2 years. There will also probably be a reduction in official visits over the next 3-4 years.
No Death Penalty

We'll know in the morning and the speculation will be over. It would not surprise me for PSU to seek a TRO and fight any sanctions in court under the premise that they did not break NCAA rules and therefore should not be punished by them. They will contend that this is a legal matter and that the university is cooperating with law enforcement.

[Tejastrue]

because you have been eating moldy grain (ergot poisoning)?

Is that the same thing you give them bulls during drought season?

[Manso/V8]

Is that the same thing you give them bulls during drought season?

have to admit I have fed moldy hay or feed if that was all I had during dry times when grass is short. I try to keep it away from bred cows thinking it might make them abort or something.....never worried about the bulls, but the thought of a 2,000+ pound bull "trippin" on *** gives me a reason to reconsider.

[Old Tiger]

I'm sure ncaa will use the very vague by laws when it comes to lackof institutional control and use them to deal out punishment. That way they cant be appealed.

[Tejastrue]

I'm sure ncaa will use the very vague by laws when it comes to lackof institutional control and use them to deal out punishment. That way they cant be appealed.

Do you agree with that?

[coachc45]

I'm sure ncaa will use the very vague by laws when it comes to lackof institutional control and use them to deal out punishment. That way they cant be appealed.

At the very least there will be an appeal on the grounds of the Lack of Due Process. The procedures are spelled out in the NCAA bylaws. The NCAA is supposed to inform in writing of an investigation. Provide the University of the findings in the investigation. The University then has 90 days to prepare a rebuttal. Then a hearing is schedule. During the hearing, all punishments are to be handed down.

None of these steps are being followed which will open up the appeal. Do not be surprised if all sanctions are overturned within a year. The NCAA is doing things this quickly to give the appearance of being hard on PSU, they also understand that they have no jurisdiction over these kind of transgressions. This way they can show the public how Tough they are, the whole time knowing they won't stick. Assuaging public outrage and deflecting criticism at the same time... but in the end no sanctions.

[Manso/V8]

The state of Pennsylvania should be outraged and the legislature should impose sanctions on the program.

[regaleagle]

That's about the way things are sizing up on this one, allright. Looks like they are gonna play the wrong hand on purpose, don't it!

[Txbroadcaster]

I feel Joe Pa got lucky when he died because the truth had not come out yet.....but I dont feel the NCAA punishing the football program does one thing to make this right...fire the people who shoulda woulda coulda but destroying the football program does noting to right the wrong...it feels like the NCAA is coming to the party late going hey hey here we are and we are doing something about this because this is wrong...just feels very fake and very BS

[bigwood33]

I just read a post over on TOC that describes some leaked information. No doubt it is hearsay but if correct, WOW! The sanctions described are worse than what happened to SMU. If that information is correct, PSU will have no choice but to fight it in court. Here is what it says.

Per leaked CBS source from a blue and white recruiting page, Penn State will suspend football operations for 1 year, no scholarships for 2013, no bowl games or tv games until 2015, all players can transfer and be eligible immediately. Penn State will lose 5 scholarships a year from 2014-2020. Beginning in 2014 they have the option to drop to D1-AA (FBS) with no penalty and return to D1-A in 2020. All wins back to 1998 will be vacated.

[Manso/V8]

Plus, they don't have to remove the JoePa statue, they just have to move it so that he is looking the other way.

[jason]

they got off easy

[lostaussie]

Told ya boys, the statue was coming down and mark this down too coachc45 - PSU WILL GET THE DEATH PENALTY.WRONG.............Although it might as well have been.

[jason]

WRONG.............Although it might as well have been.

i disagree.
the fine can't come from, or effect, non-revenue athletics so the football team will make that back in a year or two.
the vacated wins doesn't have any impact on upcoming seasons.
being limited to 65 scholarships isn't terrible.
being banned from bowl games won't be terrible either, it didn't hurt USC like people thought.

[Old Tiger]

i disagree.
the fine can't come from, or effect, non-revenue athletics so the football team will make that back in a year or two.
the vacated wins doesn't have any impact on upcoming seasons.
being limited to 65 scholarships isn't terrible.
being banned from bowl games won't be terrible either, it didn't hurt USC like people thought.Does that 60 million come from revenue from the football team?


Revenue from the football program disbursed to the other non revenue sports is what keeps them a float.




-60 million fine
-4 year bowl ban
-loss of 10 initial scholarhips
-Then 20 more scholarships over the next 4 years

[jason]

Does that 60 million come from revenue from the football team?


Revenue from the football program disbursed to the other non revenue sports is what keeps them a float.




-60 million fine
-4 year bowl ban
-loss of 10 initial scholarhips
-Then 20 more scholarships over the next 4 years

the fine can't cause non-revenue sports to be cut, that is the punishment to the university and not the football team specifically.
the university has to find a way to pay the fine without cutting sports and athletic scholarships.

[bolshavik]

I told you, I told you.....WORSE THEN THE DEATH PENALTY. It will be a decade before State Penn is in a bowl game again.
If I was a player on the Penn State team right now I would BOLT

[Pick6]

I told you, I told you.....WORSE THEN THE DEATH PENALTY. It will be a decade before State Penn is in a bowl game again.
If I was a player on the Penn State team right now I would BOLT

I guess you don't fully understand the death penalty, it took SMU 20+ years to get back to a bowl game. Penn State will be back in a bowl game in 5-7 years. Penn State got off easier than alot of people thought they would. Penn State's athletic dept, not just the football program, would of taken a huge hit if they had been given the death penalty. SMU would of loved this penalty over what they received.

[Old Tiger]

The 4 year post season ban means not elgible for big 10 championship. It didn't hurt usc because they had way more talent on campus than most schools. Penn state isnt close to being that talented. Also usc campus and atmosphere is way better than Penn state.

[bolshavik]

You are CRAZY...This just killed the program. Name the last time Penn State beat a top 5 team. Penn State has not been relevant in a while. Good news is that we dont have some sissy talking Yankee (Joe Ped) as the all time winning coach. Good ole Bobby Bowden sits a top of the winningest coach in NCAA yet again.

PSU = DEAD for a decade

[Macarthur]

You are CRAZY...This just killed the program. Name the last time Penn State beat a top 5 team. Penn State has not been relevant in a while. Good news is that we dont have some sissy talking Yankee (Joe Ped) as the all time winning coach. Good ole Bobby Bowden sits a top of the winningest coach in NCAA yet again.

PSU = DEAD for a decade

It will hurt the program severely, but this is not the death penalty. I actually think they got off lighter than I thought they would. I thought they would go at least one year with no scholarships.

[NastySlot]

So what does the big 10 add to this?

[bolshavik]

Penn State should step up to the table and just become a basketball school like Peaster or something. They can't handle football, they go crazy and start messing with the kiddo's there.

[Txbroadcaster]

The death penalty killed SMU because it was a small private school fighting for players inside a state agianst multiple D1 schools and many many more outside D1 schools raiding the state...Penn State even if it recieved the death penalty would rebound quicker because outside of Pitt it is the bellcow of a state with a soid amount of talent at the HS level.

[Buckeye1980]

I think one thing this will do is let the NCAA know how reducing scholarships can effect a program. Penn State will be used a guinia pig to see if a school can remain completitive with 10 less scholarship per year, if so , than all schools my be reduced to achieve more balance.

[Buckeye1980]

i disagree.
the fine can't come from, or effect, non-revenue athletics so the football team will make that back in a year or two.
the vacated wins doesn't have any impact on upcoming seasons.
being limited to 65 scholarships isn't terrible.
being banned from bowl games won't be terrible either, it didn't hurt USC like people thought.

the bowl ban did not hurt USC as much becuase a player could still sign and expect a bowl game before leaving scholl. Any player now signing with Penn State cannot expect a bowl game before leaving school.

[bolshavik]

Interesting concept buckeye

[Txbroadcaster]

this is why this was worse than the death penalty

this was on my twitter feed
Crunching the numbers on Penn State and scholarships. They likely won't be back to 85 scholarships until 2020.

[MGAR]

You are CRAZY...This just killed the program. Name the last time Penn State beat a top 5 team. Penn State has not been relevant in a while. Good news is that we dont have some sissy talking Yankee (Joe Ped) as the all time winning coach. Good ole Bobby Bowden sits a top of the winningest coach in NCAA yet again.

PSU = DEAD for a decade

Yea, only if he wasn't behind Eddie Robinson.

[bigwood33]

By limiting PSU to 15 signees over the next 4 years, down from a max of 25, the NCAA has really turned them into a FCS program. With natural attrition (kids lost to graduation, grades, injury, and transfer) in 2 years, it is doubtful that PSU will be at the 65 scholarship limit of FCS schools. Since they can only sign 15 to replace this loss by natural attrition, there is no way for them to remain near the standard 85 limit that FBS programs have. Let's say that over the next year PSU has 15 scholarshipped seniors that graduate or run out of eligibility and they lose 15 other scholarshipped kids to transfer and injury that takes them down to 50 kids on scholarship. They can only sign 15 which puts them at 65, the same as FCS programs.This trend, if it were to continue the following year, would leave them with 50 or so scholarship kids. Then the trend should flatten out but with 2 more years of the 15 signee limitation, they will not be able to gain ground toward the desired 85. Once the limitation of signing only 15 is over, they will be back to the standard 25 limitation so it will take another 3 or 4 years to recover and get back to a full compliment of 85. Assuming that PSU isn't able to recruit the same level of athlete as they have in the past during this period, the "on the field" talent will not be as good either. I have serious doubts that in 2 or 3 years, PSU could even contend for a championship at the FCS level. I imagine that it will be at least 10 years before they are serious competitors for a Big 10 title.

They got hammered!

[Sville]

I wonder if any of Texas D1's will be scavenging the left over talent at PSU now.

[bolshavik]

Im talking big boy football, not Grambling State are they an FBS school? Uh.....NO

[Old Tiger]

So what does the big 10 add to this?There are rules written into the big 10 that state they can revoke their membership.

[MGAR]

Im talking big boy football, not Grambling State are they an FBS school? Uh.....NO

Oh my bad...

I assumed you meant any football which is why I didn't have the hoops guy there instead of Robinson.

[Old Tiger]

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2012/07/big-ten-more-penalties-penn-state/1#.UA2Bqqb0GBM

[Old Tiger]

In an ironic turn of events McQueary is not the last Penn State QB to record a win.

[Old Tiger]

http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/psu-m-footbl-mtt.html


Looking at their roster for 2012 it is a very heavy senior class/junior class filled roster. Not much depth behind that.

[Old Tiger]

Penn State president Rodney Erickson revealed that the university accepted the severe NCAA sanctions announced today to avoid the death penalty for the football program.
In an interview with the Centre Daily Times, Erickson said, "We had our backs to the wall on this. We did what we thought was necessary to save the program."
Joined by board of trustees chairwoman Karen Peetz and interim director of athletics David Joyner, Erickson said he signed the NCAA agreement because no better deal was available.
He said Penn State could have faced at least one year without football and still would have endured additional penalties.
The NCAA announced sanctions against Penn State related to the Jerry Sandusky child sex abuse scandal and the findings of the Freeh report into the university's handling of that situation.
The penalties include a four-year bowl ban, loss of scholarships for football, a $60 million fine and the vacating of all football victories since 1998.
Sounds like it is was accept the punishment or accept that we will drop the death penalty on you plus what ever else we find..
http://www.centredaily.com/2012/07/2...#storylink=cpy

[coachc45]

Watch what happens.... an Appeal will be filed soon and all these sanctions should be overturned. I realize that the atrocities committed here were awful, but PSU can win an appeal because of the Lack of Due Process. They will say all the right things for sure and when the heat dies down, and it will as soon as there is another scandal to avert the public focus, they will quietly appeal and most likely overturn all these sanctions.

[Phil C]

Can the NCAA do this? The acts were horrible but still no recruiting violations or anything that would affect the scores of football games.

[coachc45]

Can the NCAA do this? The acts were horrible but still no recruiting violations or anything that would affect the scores of football games.

Not to mention No Due Process..... Here I thought that was the most basic right we as Americans have!

[Old Tiger]

Watch what happens.... an Appeal will be filed soon and all these sanctions should be overturned. I realize that the atrocities committed here were awful, but PSU can win an appeal because of the Lack of Due Process. They will say all the right things for sure and when the heat dies down, and it will as soon as there is another scandal to avert the public focus, they will quietly appeal and most likely overturn all these sanctions.They can't appeal....they signed a consent decree and accepted these punishments. It was either these or worse the way it sounds.

[Old Tiger]

Not to mention No Due Process..... Here I thought that was the most basic right we as Americans have! The NCAA is not a state actor and is therefore not required to provide due process.

[Old Tiger]

Can the NCAA do this? The acts were horrible but still no recruiting violations or anything that would affect the scores of football games.from the decree penn state signed



"1. A failure to value and uphold institutional integrity demonstrated by inadequate,
and in some instances non-existent, controls and oversight surrounding the
athletics program of the University, such as those controls prescribed by Articles
2.1, 6.01.1, and 6.4 of the NCAA Constitution.
2. A failure to maintain minimal standards of appropriate and responsible conduct.
The NCAA seeks to foster an environment and culture of honesty, as exemplified
by NCAA Bylaws 10.01.1 and 11.1.1, and by Bylaw 10.1 on ethical conduct.
Indeed, NCAA Bylaw I 0.1 enumerates a non-exhaustive list of examples of
inappropriate conduct. In addition, Article 2.4 of the NCAA Constitution requires
athletic programs to adhere to fundamental values of respect, faimess, civility,
honesty and responsibility.
3. A lack of adherence to fundamental notions of individual integrity. An
institution's head coach should promote an atmosphere for compliance and
monitor the activities of all assistant coaches and other administrators involved
with the program who report directly or indirectly to the coach. Further, NCAA
Bylaw 19.01.2, consistent with Article 2.4 of the NCAA Constitution, demands
the employees associated with intercollegiate athletics to serve as positive moral
models for students in order "for intercollegiate athletics to promote the character
development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to
promote civility in society."

[Buckeye1980]

Can the NCAA do this? The acts were horrible but still no recruiting violations or anything that would affect the scores of football games.

Short answer ---yes they can.

There are other ways to recieve probation than recruiting violations. For example , Ohio State went on probation for violations that did not occur during recruiting and did not effect any scores of football games.

[Bullaholic]

I'm betting there are going to be some "wrongful termination of scholarship benefits" lawsuits brought by some Penn St. players against the NCAA, or possibly even Penn St., somewhere down the line.

[wimbo_pro]

Not to mention No Due Process..... Here I thought that was the most basic right we as Americans have!

Coachc...they arent a civilian covered under the Bill of Rights. They are willing and voluntary members of the NCAA and their by-laws, which they agreed to. I dont think they have much of a chance of appealing and expecting the rights of Americans to come into play.

[coachc45]

Coachc...they arent a civilian covered under the Bill of Rights. They are willing and voluntary members of the NCAA and their by-laws, which they agreed to. I dont think they have much of a chance of appealing and expecting the rights of Americans to come into play.

Have you read their own by laws..... Due Process is guaranteed. There are procedures written into their charter that were not followed. Read the stuff yourself if you don't want to take my word. I posted an article on here yesterday quoting a current NCAA infractions committee member who is a past NCAA Director who said just what I wrote. He said that their will be an appeal and PSU will win...... This isn't my opinion, heck I ain't that smart.... LOL

[wimbo_pro]

Have you read their own by laws..... Due Process is guaranteed. There are procedures written into their charter that were not followed. Read the stuff yourself if you don't want to take my word. I posted an article on here yesterday quoting a current NCAA infractions committee member who is a past NCAA Director who said just what I wrote. He said that their will be an appeal and PSU will win...... This isn't my opinion, heck I ain't that smart.... LOL

OK. i got your point now. I thought you were referring to the rights of all Americans with regards to due process...you know that story. I see your point.

[Sville]

Emmert said in the news conference that PSU signed and agreed to the penalties listed. I don't see how they can appeal.

[Old Tiger]

Have you read their own by laws..... Due Process is guaranteed. There are procedures written into their charter that were not followed. Read the stuff yourself if you don't want to take my word. I posted an article on here yesterday quoting a current NCAA infractions committee member who is a past NCAA Director who said just what I wrote. He said that their will be an appeal and PSU will win...... This isn't my opinion, heck I ain't that smart.... LOLNo appeal dude at all


http://www.whptv.com/news/local/story/Penn-State-President-Ericksons-statement/25npoKKjJUyed-u9XzuG3Q.cspx

[coachc45]

No appeal dude at all


http://www.whptv.com/news/local/story/Penn-State-President-Ericksons-statement/25npoKKjJUyed-u9XzuG3Q.cspx

I just read that statement.... Nowhere does it say they can't appeal.

Like I said... I didn't make this stuff up..... Read the article.

He said that PSU will say and do all the right things then when the heat dies down they will appeal...... sorry... Just stating what someone who actually knows the NCAA and the process stated. Read the Article.

[bolshavik]

Did they not sign this agreement so as to not get the death penalty? Thought I saw that somewhere.

[coachc45]

Did they not sign this agreement so as to not get the death penalty? Thought I saw that somewhere.


Here is the quote and I will provide the link:

A former Committee on Infractions chairman and current Division I Appeals Committee member told ESPN.com's Katz the NCAA's penalizing of an institution and program for immoral and criminal behavior also breaks new ground.


The former chair, who has been involved with the NCAA for nearly three decades, said he couldn't use his name on the record since the case could come before him and the committee he still serves on in an appeals process.



"This is unique and this kind of power has never been tested or tried," the former chair said. "It's unprecedented to have this extensive power. This has nothing to do with the purpose of the infractions process. Nevertheless, somehow (the NCAA president and executive board) have taken it on themselves to be a commissioner and to penalize a school for improper conduct."


NCAA presidents past and present have made a point of saying they are not akin to a commissioner in professional sports and don't have the power to penalize players, coaches or schools independently.


The former chair said the only "rule" that the NCAA could be holding onto here is a lack of institutional control.


"I would be surprised if they're treating this as simply a lack of institutional control under the rules," the former chair said. "Because then that would technically go through the committee."


The chair said that the NCAA is choosing to deal with a case that is outside the traditional rules or violations. He said this case does not fall within the basic fundamental purpose of NCAA regulations.


"The purpose of the NCAA is to keep a level playing field among schools and to make sure they use proper methods through scholarships and etcetera," the chair said. "This is not a case that would normally go through the process. It has nothing to do with a level playing field. It has nothing to do with whether Penn State gets advantages over other schools in recruiting or in the number of coaches or things that we normally deal with."


The former chair said as an example the NCAA didn't get involved in the murder of Yeardley Love, a women's lacrosse player at Virginia, by her former boyfriend, a male lacrosse player at Virginia.


"The real question is whether or not under the overall rules and regulations of the NCAA do those in charge take action when it doesn't fall within the scope and realm of the normal infractions process," the former chair said. "This has nothing to do with a level playing field or competition. The NCAA is a voluntary organization and the schools sign on to be bound by the NCAA rules and regulations."

The chair added that the only connection to athletics was that the department was lenient to Sandusky and that some of his crimes were committed at the Penn State football facility.


"But this has nothing to do with NCAA business," the former chair said. "This is new. If they're going to deal with situations of this kind that have nothing to do with the games of who plays and so on and rather deal with members of the athletic department who act immorally or criminally then it opens up the door to other cases."


The NCAA, the chair said, didn't get involved in punishing the school for criminal behavior.


"The criminal courts are perfectly capable of handling these situations," the former chair said. "This is a new phase and a new thing. They are getting into bad behavior that are somehow connected to those who work in the athletic department.


"This is an important precedent. And it should be taken with extreme care."


Penn Staters for Responsible Stewardship, a self-described group of "alumni, students, benefactors, and friends" of Penn State, emailed Emmert through an attorney to voice its concerns over the NCAA's planned sanctions.

The email, obtained by ESPN, claims the Freeh report "is fraught with factual and legal errors, filled with opinions and unsupported conclusions, and, in a word, faulty."

The group also casts doubt on the Freeh team's ability to conduct the report by citing the successful appeal of former FIFA presidential candidate Mohammed bin Hammam. The Court of Arbitration for Sport recently overturned bin Hammam's lifetime ban from soccer, which was based in part on another Freeh investigation.

Michael Buckner, an attorney who represents schools and coaches in NCAA cases, said the NCAA's course of action might even be unconstitutional for violating federal and state notions of due process.


"Federal and state courts have consistently held that membership organizations, including athletics associations like the NCAA, are required to provide procedures that protect their members against arbitrary and irrational action," Buckner wrote in an email.

"The (criminal) conduct of Penn State and its employees, no matter how egregious, is not a violation of an existing NCAA rule," Buckner wrote.

The NCAA is not following its existing enforcement processes, according to Buckner, and the lack of an outlined appeals process is also cause for concern.



http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8188629/ncaa-reveal-penn-state-sanctions-monday

[bolshavik]

Coachc- why are you on such a mission to free PSU? Just curious

[coachc45]

Coachc- why are you on such a mission to free PSU? Just curious

Could've been PSU or SFASU for all I care. I don't like when Governing bodies overstep their bounds. What the NCAA is doing is totally outside the scope and sequence they were designed for. They were set up to make sure that their was an equal playing field... not to decide this. There are Laws in this Country and they are set up to deal with the crimes committed here, the NCAA has no Jurisdiction. I also never want to see people punished without Due Process. Every communist country in the world lets their government decide arbitrarily whether someone is Guilty, we do not. I don't want to live in a country where the citizenry condone it. 90% of the people who are calling for these sanctions and are happy with the way they were handed down would be OUTRAGED if the same process was given to them for their misdeeds, yet here they are willing to overlook the one thing they would expect if accused of a crime... their day in court.

When Sandusky was arrested, none of y'all would condone him being thrown in jail without a trial. But you want Penn State to be.... Hypocritical.

I in no way condone the atrocities that Sandusky committed or the Cover-up. But I also don't think we should knee jerk a punishment like was done here. Due Process was put in place to make sure that things such as Emotion and Outrage would not come into play.... Yet in this case we are condoning it.

Let me ask you this..... If the Punishments handed down in this case were to come down 6 months form now as opposed to now would they be less painful? Would they not be as damaging? No the wouldn't be. The only reason that they were done this quickly was to appease the masses, Now think long and hard, Do you want your fate to be decided to appease the masses? I know I don't.

Like I said, I am not defending Penn State, I am defending the process. The NCAA is acting arbitrarily and outside its sequence, it is also violating its own rules and regulations. That bothers me beyond belief..... and condoning it here will only lead to a more widespread use. Either you are for Due Process or you are not....It is not something of a convenience; i.e. its good for some case and not for others, either it is good or its not. You can't have it both ways.

[bolshavik]

The NCAA can do what it wants. I have said for years that the top 50 football teams in the country should break away from the NCAA and create their own deal but they don't. I am ok with the sanctions because in reality they deserve it.

[coachc45]

Did they not sign this agreement so as to not get the death penalty? Thought I saw that somewhere.

Doesn't say that anywhere.... Not that I have read. And if you think that their won't be an appeal, then why have the already started the process by sending the protest email and obtaining a lawyer who specializes in appeals?

[coachc45]

The NCAA can do what it wants. I have said for years that the top 50 football teams in the country should break away from the NCAA and create their own deal but they don't. I am ok with the sanctions because in reality they deserve it.

And that, my friend, scares the CRAP out of me! How can you sit here and say you are ok with it when it was done wrong? If you break a law and they convict you and sentence you without the opportunityfor a trial, would you be ok with it? I am not. I can plead guilty and that is fine, but I have to do that in court. They don't walk up to me and say ok you are guilty and here is your punishment, do you agree? If they did I would do exactly what PSU did, I would say sure. Then I would appeal and win.

It isn't up to me or you to decide what happened... we weren't there and we don't have the facts.

And the NCAA can't do what it wants.... they have guidelines, rules, and regulations. They have to follow them. They also have to have the Presidents of the member Universities agree to any changes.

[Bullaholic]

At this point, I think most of the athletic sanctions stand a good chance of being overturned, but everything else upheld.

[coachc45]

At this point, I think most of the athletic sanctions stand a good chance of being overturned, but everything else upheld.

If one is overturned, then they all will be. Not one thing was done within the by-laws of the NCAA making them illegal.

[wimbo_pro]

The only reason that they were done this quickly was to appease the masses,

Pure assumption, Coachc. Can you find it written anywhere that this is the "only reason"? Same logic you attempted to use all through this thread can be turned on your opinion as well. Apparently they CAN do this, and they just did. Will PSU appeal? Maybe. Doubtful, but possible.

Also I think comparing this action to an organization such as PSU and the NCAA (as compared to a US citizen) is a false argument.

[coachc45]

Pure assumption, Coachc. Can you find it written anywhere that this is the "only reason"? Same logic you attempted to use all through this thread can be turned on your opinion as well. Apparently they CAN do this, and they just did. Will PSU appeal? Maybe. Doubtful, but possible.

Also I think comparing this action to an organization such as PSU and the NCAA (as compared to a US citizen) is a false argument.

Did you read the stuff I posted from the article....did you read the article?

And I never said that as fact...that was purely my opinion. When I said that about other people it was directly after they said why Paterno and co did what they did and said it was fact. I absolutely agree that what I said was an assumption and Opinion.

[coachc45]

Did you read the stuff I posted from the article....did you read the article?

And I never said that as fact...that was purely my opinion. When I said that about other people it was directly after they said why Paterno and co did what they did and said it was fact. I absolutely agree that what I said was an assumption and Opinion.

Oh and you are right they can do what they just did....doesn't make it right.

And how is it wrong to compare? The NCAA didn't follow their own by-laws..... That is fact! How can you fundamentally say that it has no correlation. You don't get to bend this to fit your own needs. Either it is wrong for a Governing body to break the rules set forth by the members (or citizens) or its not. This isn't a grey area thing.... it is in Black and White.

[Sville]

None of the sanctions will be overturned because PSU agreed to them and will not appeal them.

"We had our backs to the wall on this," Penn State president Rodney Erickson told the Centre Daily Times of Pennsylvania in an interview later Monday, saying the school accepted the penalties to avoid the so-called "death penalty" that could have resulted in the suspension of the football program for at least one year. "We did what we thought was necessary to save the program."

ESPN (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8191027/penn-state-nittany-lions-hit-60-million-fine-4-year-bowl-ban-wins-dating-1998)

[coachc45]

None of the sanctions will be overturned because PSU agreed to them and will not appeal them.

"We had our backs to the wall on this," Penn State president Rodney Erickson told the Centre Daily Times of Pennsylvania in an interview later Monday, saying the school accepted the penalties to avoid the so-called "death penalty" that could have resulted in the suspension of the football program for at least one year. "We did what we thought was necessary to save the program."

ESPN (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8191027/penn-state-nittany-lions-hit-60-million-fine-4-year-bowl-ban-wins-dating-1998)


I won't bring it up again. But I reserve the right to come back when they do appeal. LOL.

[Txbroadcaster]

Oh and you are right they can do what they just did....doesn't make it right.

And how is it wrong to compare? The NCAA didn't follow their own by-laws..... That is fact! How can you fundamentally say that it has no correlation. You don't get to bend this to fit your own needs. Either it is wrong for a Governing body to break the rules set forth by the members (or citizens) or its not. This isn't a grey area thing.... it is in Black and White.


NCAA used lack of institutional control as the reason and they have that right

[Txbroadcaster]

I won't bring it up again. But I reserve the right to come back when they do appeal. LOL.

not really sure how they can appeal..they can try but the school agreed to accept the punishment and agreed to not appeal the findings

[Tejastrue]

I don't understand the logic of deleting the game records from the books since 1998. They are basically telling everyone who played/coached, who had absolutely nothing to do with the scandal, sorry, it never happened. No violations by the players, yet they are the ones being punished and reputations tarnished. It would be nice if we all could go back and manipulate our history. Wait, I guess we have.

[wimbo_pro]

I don't understand the logic of deleting the game records from the books since 1998. They are basically telling everyone who played/coached, who had absolutely nothing to do with the scandal, sorry, it never happened. No violations by the players, yet they are the ones being punished and reputations tarnished. It would be nice if we all could go back and manipulate our history. Wait, I guess we have.

I agree with that point. I mean...come on. Anyways, they will still playball in the fall...still fill the stands (for a while), still have vendors vending and players playing...but its on a downhill slide, no doubt.

[Farmersfan]

Could've been PSU or SFASU for all I care. I don't like when Governing bodies overstep their bounds. What the NCAA is doing is totally outside the scope and sequence they were designed for. They were set up to make sure that their was an equal playing field... not to decide this. There are Laws in this Country and they are set up to deal with the crimes committed here, the NCAA has no Jurisdiction. I also never want to see people punished without Due Process. Every communist country in the world lets their government decide arbitrarily whether someone is Guilty, we do not. I don't want to live in a country where the citizenry condone it. 90% of the people who are calling for these sanctions and are happy with the way they were handed down would be OUTRAGED if the same process was given to them for their misdeeds, yet here they are willing to overlook the one thing they would expect if accused of a crime... their day in court.

When Sandusky was arrested, none of y'all would condone him being thrown in jail without a trial. But you want Penn State to be.... Hypocritical.

I in no way condone the atrocities that Sandusky committed or the Cover-up. But I also don't think we should knee jerk a punishment like was done here. Due Process was put in place to make sure that things such as Emotion and Outrage would not come into play.... Yet in this case we are condoning it.

Let me ask you this..... If the Punishments handed down in this case were to come down 6 months form now as opposed to now would they be less painful? Would they not be as damaging? No the wouldn't be. The only reason that they were done this quickly was to appease the masses, Now think long and hard, Do you want your fate to be decided to appease the masses? I know I don't.

Like I said, I am not defending Penn State, I am defending the process. The NCAA is acting arbitrarily and outside its sequence, it is also violating its own rules and regulations. That bothers me beyond belief..... and condoning it here will only lead to a more widespread use. Either you are for Due Process or you are not....It is not something of a convenience; i.e. its good for some case and not for others, either it is good or its not. You can't have it both ways.




The NCAA didn't enact criminal penalties against Penn st! These were membership penalties enacted by the governing body of an exclusive club where membership is a privilege and not a RIGHT. Penn State certainly has the ability to retract their membership into the NCAA and go their own way if they believe they have been treated badly. You don't seem to understand the difference in this and our criminal "due Process" laws in this country. All the innocent until proven guilty crap doesn't apply here. I'm not saying I agree with their sentence in this case but I agree with that far, far more than I can agree with your take on the thing. Penn State is owed absolutely nothing from the NCAA in the way of evidence or due process in a court of law. There is a big distinction between criminal law and the rules of membership!

[bolshavik]

They deleted the records from 1998-2011 so that Joe Ped is not sitting a top of the NCAA record books. Joe Pa and Sandusky are in the same boat as O.J. Nobody will think of them without thinking of what they became in the end.

[coachc45]

The NCAA didn't enact criminal penalties against Penn st! These were membership penalties enacted by the governing body of an exclusive club where membership is a privilege and not a RIGHT. Penn State certainly has the ability to retract their membership into the NCAA and go their own way if they believe they have been treated badly. You don't seem to understand the difference in this and our criminal "due Process" laws in this country. All the innocent until proven guilty crap doesn't apply here. I'm not saying I agree with their sentence in this case but I agree with that far, far more than I can agree with your take on the thing. Penn State is owed absolutely nothing from the NCAA in the way of evidence or due process in a court of law. There is a big distinction between criminal law and the rules of membership!

ok..... but read the article I posted that lists the fact that the NCAA guarantees Due Process....... Which was Made mandatory through a federal Lawsuit. I am not ignorant....Heck I even posted the article that spells it out.

[Old Tiger]

ok..... but read the article I posted that lists the fact that the NCAA guarantees Due Process....... Which was Made mandatory through a federal Lawsuit. I am not ignorant....Heck I even posted the article that spells it out.

Here is the case you speak of



U.S. Supreme Court
NCAA v. Tarkanian, 488 U.S. 179 (1988)

National Collegiate Athletic Association v. Tarkanian

No. 87-1061

Argued October 5, 1988

Decided December 12, 1988

488 U.S. 179

Syllabus

Petitioner National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA), an unincorporated association consisting of approximately 960 public and private universities and colleges, adopts rules governing member institutions' recruiting, admissions, academic eligibility, and financial aid standards for student athletes. The NCAA's Committee on Infractions conducts investigations, makes factual determinations, and is expressly authorized to impose penalties upon members that have violated the rules, but is not authorized to sanction a member institution's employees directly. After a lengthy investigation of allegedly improper recruiting practices by the University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV), a state university, the Committee found 38 violations, including 10 by respondent Tarkanian, UNLV's basketball coach. The Committee imposed a number of sanctions upon UNLV, and requested it to show cause why additional penalties should not be imposed if it failed to suspend Tarkanian from its athletic program during a probation period. Facing demotion and a drastic cut in pay, Tarkanian brought suit in Nevada state court, alleging that he had been deprived of his Fourteenth Amendment due process rights in violation of 42 U.S.C. § 1983. Ultimately, Tarkanian obtained injunctive relief and an award of attorney's fees against both UNLV and the NCAA. Concluding that the NCAA's conduct constituted state action for jurisdictional and constitutional purposes, the Nevada Supreme Court affirmed in relevant part.

Held: The NCAA's participation in the events that led to Tarkanian's suspension did not constitute "state action" prohibited by the Fourteenth Amendment, and was not performed "under color of " state law within the meaning of § 1983. The NCAA cannot be deemed to be a state actor on the theory that it misused power it possessed by virtue of state law, since UNLV's decision to suspend Tarkanian, while in compliance with the NCAA's rules and recommendations, did not turn the NCAA's conduct into action under color of Nevada law. Although it must be assumed that UNLV, as an NCAA member and a participant in the promulgation of the Association's rules, had some minor impact on the NCAA's policy determinations, the source of the rules adopted by the NCAA is not Nevada, but the collective membership, the vast majority of which was located in other States. Moreover, UNLV's decision to

Page 488 U. S. 180

adopt the NCAA's rules did not transform them into state rules, and the NCAA into a state actor, since UNLV retained plenary power to withdraw from the NCAA and to establish its own standards. The NCAA's investigation, enforcement proceedings, and consequent recommendations did not constitute state action on the theory that they resulted from a delegation of power by UNLV, because: UNLV delegated no power to the NCAA to take specific action against any University employee; UNLV and the NCAA acted as adversaries throughout the proceedings; the NCAA enjoyed no governmental powers to facilitate its investigation; and the NCAA did not -- indeed, could not -- directly discipline Tarkanian, but could only threaten additional sanctions against UNLV if the University chose not to suspend its coach. Furthermore, even assuming the truth of Tarkanian's argument that the power of the NCAA is so great that UNLV had no practical alternative but to comply with the Association's demands, it does not follow that the NCAA was therefore acting under color of state law. Pp. 488 U. S. 191-199.

103 Nev. 331, 741 P.2d 1345, reversed and remanded.

STEVENS, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which REHNQUIST, C.J., and BLACKMUN, SCALIA, and KENNEDY, JJ., joined. WHITE, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which BRENNAN, MARSHALL, and O'CONNOR, JJ., joined, post, p. 488 U. S. 199.



And here is the decree signed by Penn State president

http://a.espncdn.com/pdf/2012/0723/pennstateconclusions.pdf

[coachc45]

Here is the case you speak of




And here is the decree signed by Penn State president

http://a.espncdn.com/pdf/2012/0723/pennstateconclusions.pdf


Not to split hairs.....but in the next to last paragraph states that "this consent decree can be modified by written request by the parties."

Now I ain't real smart....but doesn't that mean it can be appealed? Or else why put it in there? I'm not trying to be a jerk either. I read every word of that document and nowhere does it say it cannot be appealed. And then it has that last statement. I keep reading you guys tell me it can't be appealed, and everything y'all post says nothing about it. I just really don't get it. Where are y'all seeing this?

[Old Tiger]

Not to split hairs.....but in the next to last paragraph states that "this consent decree can be modified by written request by the parties."

Now I ain't real smart....but doesn't that mean it can be appealed? Or else why put it in there?
Did you not read the violated rules that were cited? It makes it virtually impossible to appeal and overturn those punishments due to the rules that were cited. As I said before the punishments were handed out there are by-laws that the NCAA was going to use that make it virtually impossible to turn over.


Here are the cited failures

1. A failure to value and uphold institutional integrity demonstrated by inadequate,
and in some instances non-existent, controls and oversight surrounding the
athletics program of the University, such as those controls prescribed by Articles
2.1, 6.01.1, and 6.4 of the NCAA Constitution.
2. A failure to maintain minimal standards of appropriate and responsible conduct.
The NCAA seeks to foster an environment and culture of honesty, as exemplified
by NCAA Bylaws 10.01.1 and 11.1.1, and by Bylaw 10.1 on ethical conduct.
Indeed, NCAA Bylaw I 0.1 enumerates a non-exhaustive list of examples of
inappropriate conduct. In addition, Article 2.4 of the NCAA Constitution requires
athletic programs to adhere to fundamental values of respect, faimess, civility,
honesty and responsibility.
3. A lack of adherence to fundamental notions of individual integrity. An
institution's head coach should promote an atmosphere for compliance and
monitor the activities of all assistant coaches and other administrators involved
with the program who report directly or indirectly to the coach. Further, NCAA
Bylaw 19.01.2, consistent with Article 2.4 of the NCAA Constitution, demands
the employees associated with intercollegiate athletics to serve as positive moral
models for students in order "for intercollegiate athletics to promote the character
development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to
promote civility in society.

If anymore information comes up in the court cases with the two Penn State officials who are being held in contempt of court then I'm sure more punishment will be dealt. But you will not see an appeal from Penn State according to their president.


It should also be noted that in the decree the NCAA calls the Freeh report factual findings, not one guys opinion, as some have been trying to say. Emmert even said in an interview that the Freeh report was in much more detail than the NCAA could of ever done.

[coachc45]

Did you not read the violated rules that were cited? It makes it virtually impossible to appeal and overturn those punishments due to the rules that were cited. As I said before the punishments were handed out there are by-laws that the NCAA was going to use that make it virtually impossible to turn over.


Here are the cited failures





If anymore information comes up in the court cases with the two Penn State officials who are being held in contempt of court then I'm sure more punishment will be dealt. But you will not see an appeal from Penn State according to their president.


It should also be noted that in the decree the NCAA calls the Freeh report factual findings, not one guys opinion as some have been trying to say.


I didn't say they would appeal based on the rules cited..... but based upon the Lack of Due Process. This is a quote from a Lawyer hired by a Penn State Alumni Association stating the reason it is appealable.


Michael Buckner, an attorney who represents schools and coaches in NCAA cases, said the NCAA's course of action might even be unconstitutional for violating federal and state notions of due process.


"Federal and state courts have consistently held that membership organizations, including athletics associations like the NCAA, are required to provide procedures that protect their members against arbitrary and irrational action," Buckner wrote in an email.

"The (criminal) conduct of Penn State and its employees, no matter how egregious, is not a violation of an existing NCAA rule," Buckner wrote.

The NCAA is not following its existing enforcement processes, according to Buckner, and the lack of an outlined appeals process is also cause for concern.


Also whether or not the NCAA calls it factual or not makes little difference. I can call something fact and it can still be opinion. Heck, even in the report itself Freeh uses language such as "it is a reasonable conclusion" which in and of itself it is an opinion.

The Alumni Association is also filing documents to refute that point itself.


Here is that Quote:

Penn Staters for Responsible Stewardship, a self-described group of "alumni, students, benefactors, and friends" of Penn State, emailed Emmert through an attorney to voice its concerns over the NCAA's sanctions.

The email, obtained by ESPN, claims the Freeh report "is fraught with factual and legal errors, filled with opinions and unsupported conclusions, and, in a word, faulty."

The group also casts doubt on the Freeh team's ability to conduct the report by citing the successful appeal of former FIFA presidential candidate Mohammed bin Hammam. The Court of Arbitration for Sport recently overturned bin Hammam's lifetime ban from soccer, which was based in part on another Freeh investigation.

[coachc45]

Guys their might not be an appeal.... but then explain to me the quotes I just gave you?

I'm really not arguing to be arguing..... these are actual quotes. Everyone keeps telling me their won't be an appeal, but I give you Quotes to show that preparations are being made to do just that.

If their are not....so be it. But I'm giving you evidence that there just might be one.

I ain't just making crap up and saying stuff out of my ass.

[Old Tiger]

I didn't say they would appeal based on the rules cited..... but based upon the Lack of Due Process. This is a quote from a Lawyer hired by a Penn State Alumni Association stating the reason it is appealable.


Michael Buckner, an attorney who represents schools and coaches in NCAA cases, said the NCAA's course of action might even be unconstitutional for violating federal and state notions of due process.


"Federal and state courts have consistently held that membership organizations, including athletics associations like the NCAA, are required to provide procedures that protect their members against arbitrary and irrational action," Buckner wrote in an email.

"The (criminal) conduct of Penn State and its employees, no matter how egregious, is not a violation of an existing NCAA rule," Buckner wrote.

The NCAA is not following its existing enforcement processes, according to Buckner, and the lack of an outlined appeals process is also cause for concern.


Also whether or not the NCAA calls it factual or not makes little difference. I can call something fact and it can still be opinion. Heck, even in the report itself Freeh uses language such as "it is a reasonable conclusion" which in and of itself it is an opinion.

The Alumni Association is also filing documents to refute that point itself.
In the 1988 Supreme Court case of NCAA vs Tarkanian was about the due process situation. The NCAA is punishing Penn State as a whole not as an individual so therefore whatever agreement between the NCAA and Penn State is not subjected to the 14th Amendment right because the NCAA is not a state entity and their rules are not state law in Pennsylvania.


Penn State is free to leave the NCAA is they feel these rules aren't fair but that will not happen.

[coachc45]

In the 1988 Supreme Court case of NCAA vs Tarkanian was about the due process situation. The NCAA is punishing Penn State as a whole not as an individual so therefore whatever agreement between the NCAA and Penn State is not subjected to the 14th Amendment right because the NCAA is not a state entity and their rules are not state law in Pennsylvania.


Penn State is free to leave the NCAA is they feel these rules aren't fair but that will not happen.

So what you are telling me is that this lawyer who is specializing in NCAA Appeals is lying?

Oh and the Current Member of the NCAA Appeals Committee I quoted yesterday is Lying also?

Really?


And did you read that Supreme Court Opinion that you posted? It was not about Due Process. It was about Jerry Tarkanian, not Due process. Tark was suspended from coaching at UNLV by the NCAA, his contention was that the NCAA could not do that. Supreme Court said that the NCAA had no Jurisdiction over Jerry Tarkanian, but could threaten UNLV with more Sanctions if the University did not suspend him.

[Old Tiger]

So what you are telling me is that this lawyer who is specializing in NCAA Appeals is lying?

Oh and the Current Member of the NCAA Appeals Committee I quoted yesterday is Lying also?

Really?
I'm not saying either of those I'm simply stating that it would be a waste of time and money to appeal. A lawyer is the one talking appeals while the actual president of Penn State said they accept the punishments handed out because "their back is against the wall."

[coachc45]

I'm not saying either of those I'm simply stating that it would be a waste of time and money to appeal. A lawyer is the one talking appeals while the actual president of Penn State said they accept the punishments handed out because "their back is against the wall."

No what you said was they could not appeal. I can quote it where you said it.

My point is this.....whether the President said it or not, There is proof that an Alumni Group is preparing an Appeal as we speak. You say it would be pointless, but if the Alumni Association decides to sue the NCAA on behalf of the Athletes. The whole thing can be overturned. Everyone may be right and it doesn't happen, but I am just showing you that it very well could happen!

I don't understand how that makes everyone so mad. Everything I have posted I have backed up with quotes and Documentation. But still y'all try to make me seem like I am ignorant.

[Old Tiger]

No what you said was they could not appeal. I can quote it where you said it.

My point is this.....whether the President said it or not, There is proof that an Alumni Group is preparing an Appeal as we speak. You say it would be pointless, but if the Alumni Association decides to sue the NCAA on behalf of the Athletes. The whole thing can be overturned. Everyone may be right and it doesn't happen, but I am just showing you that it very well could happen!

I don't understand how that makes everyone so mad. Everything I have posted I have backed up with quotes and Documentation. But still y'all try to make me seem like I am ignorant.

Well to be honest, you are.

[Ville]

Penn State wont Appeal in my opinion. Dont think they want to go down that road even if they could. By the time its over there will be more people in jail and many more leave when they find a new home. As far a football goes they will no longer be a top tier team. I think its 10 plus years before they are a 500 team. I also think year 5 and 6 will be worse than year 1-4.

[Bullaholic]

I don't think Penn St. will appeal, but you better believe individuals and/or groups are preparing lawsuits as we post. I think the NCAA has opened up a huge can of worms here.

[Tejastrue]

It's hard for a dead man to defend himself but I hope the family will give it their best shot. If they find out all of the so called allegations were true then so be it. They will need some sort of closure, if that is even possible.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2012-07-23/penn-state-ncaa-penalties-sanctions-joe-paterno-family-statement-jerry-sandusky?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl13%7Clink6%26pLid%3D183123

[bolshavik]

Coachc- Do you honestly believe that PSU will appeal? I am sure ESPN,CNN, etc would love for PSU to appeal so they can keep churning out stories and keep all the hype going. Yeah, here is an idea...Appeal it and REALLY piss off the masses and the NCAA, that will do PSU a ton of good. CoachC- I hope you are right and they appeal and then the hatred of the masses will really be stoked and the NCAA then hands them the DEATH PENALTY for an entire Decade.

[Old Tiger]

This quote from the Paterno attorney makes me sick and shows how bad the problem is at that institution.

Attorney Andreozzi :"NCAA and Penn State owed it to them to at least consult with them before rendering a decision,"


"Them," meaning the Paterno family.

[Roughneck93]

All this talk about PSU not receiving due process by the NCAA, consider this paragraph from the NCAA on charging an institution...

"However, if an institution agrees with the facts that the investigation has uncovered, the case can enter the summary-disposition process before a notice of allegations is provided. In summary disposition, the school and the enforcement staff agree on the facts and a set of penalties to be imposed; no hearing before the Committee on Infractions is necessary."

I do believe this is the case here.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Enforcement/Process/Charging

[bolshavik]

Man, Coachc is gonna cry his eyes out on this one Roughneck

[Sville]

The PSU penalties will go far beyond the NCAA sanctions. State Farm has already pulled their sponsorship deal with them and GM is considering doing the same as are several other sponsors. Moody's is evaluating whether to cut PSU's credit rating as well. PSU apparel has dropped from $80 mil in sales in 2010 to $45 million in the last year.

There is bound to be a big fine from the US Dept of Education for violation of the Clery Act. Shoot Tarleton got fined $250k a few months ago for violations 8-10 years ago. Not to mention the civil suits from the victims. This is just the start.

[bolshavik]

Yes, Coachc- How come these sponsors arent giving due process? You should hire an attorney and force them to follow due process

[coachc45]

Yes, Coachc- How come these sponsors arent giving due process? You should hire an attorney and force them to follow due process

Gee Bolshavik..... you really don't read well. All I have done is state what I have read and asked for you wonderful people to guide me to the promise land of Righteous Indignation! I really am amazed that I have even taken the time to respond to you... You have brought nothing to this conversation but Smart A** remarks. But thank you for taking the time to show me what everyone else already knew.....

[coachc45]

Well to be honest, you are.

Well thank you Old Tiger.......

Makes me wonder though.... the only "substantial Document" you have brought to this conversation to prove your point had absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. So if I am ignorant, but post actual supporting evidence for my arguments and questions......what would you call someone who can't even read and comprehend the one "Supreme Court Ruling" he posted?

Stupid maybe? But only trying to be honest. LOL.

[coachc45]

All this talk about PSU not receiving due process by the NCAA, consider this paragraph from the NCAA on charging an institution...

"However, if an institution agrees with the facts that the investigation has uncovered, the case can enter the summary-disposition process before a notice of allegations is provided. In summary disposition, the school and the enforcement staff agree on the facts and a set of penalties to be imposed; no hearing before the Committee on Infractions is necessary."

I do believe this is the case here.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Enforcement/Process/Charging

Thank you..... Finally someone who can shed some light on this for me. I have posted an article from an NCAA Appeals Committee member who has said that all the sanctions were wrong and done improperly. I took that to be pretty expert testimony. All anyone has done to this point to refute this testimony was tell my I am wrong and ignorant. Everything they have posted has had nothing to do with their arguments or didn't back up what they claim.

This clears up for me the appeal situation with facts and substantiated documents. I now understand.

I just wish one of these other people would've done this 3 days ago, and maybe this thread would only be 4 pages long. lol

[coachc45]

Man, Coachc is gonna cry his eyes out on this one Roughneck

Shoot dude I'm not gonna cry..... I am just thankful that someone on here had the intelligence to look up a document that explains how I was wrong instead of just telling me things like "You must be in Favor of Child Molesting." or "You must be a Penn State guy" or "You are ignorant to say these things even though you have documents that explain why you believe them to be true"

Now I can actually be happy, because FINALLY someone brought something to prove me wrong!!!!! Lord knows none of you other guys brought one thing to back up your claims..... NOTHING!!!!!

Now, I can't wait til the next meet and greet so I can thank you personally for all the nice things you have to say!

[coachc45]

The PSU penalties will go far beyond the NCAA sanctions. State Farm has already pulled their sponsorship deal with them and GM is considering doing the same as are several other sponsors. Moody's is evaluating whether to cut PSU's credit rating as well. PSU apparel has dropped from $80 mil in sales in 2010 to $45 million in the last year.

There is bound to be a big fine from the US Dept of Education for violation of the Clery Act. Shoot Tarleton got fined $250k a few months ago for violations 8-10 years ago. Not to mention the civil suits from the victims. This is just the start.


And all these things are deserved.

[bolshavik]

Coachc- do your own homework. I told you yesterday that there would be no appeal, been telling you for a while now that NCAA was gonna lower the boom and you just cried and carried on. DUE PROCESS, COMMUNISM, IT AINT FAIR, etc... Now, I am not gonna post a bunch of clips and copy/paste etc.. I am just the one that will tell you what will happen. Had I known that PSU was making a back alley deal with the NCAA then I never would of said they would get the Death Penalty, However, they did not get the death penalty because they agreed to these sanctions in fear of getting the DP. Smart move on their part. Dumb on your part imho.

[coachc45]

Coachc- do your own homework. I told you yesterday that there would be no appeal, been telling you for a while now that NCAA was gonna lower the boom and you just cried and carried on. DUE PROCESS, COMMUNISM, IT AINT FAIR, etc... Now, I am not gonna post a bunch of clips and copy/paste etc.. I am just the one that will tell you what will happen. Had I known that PSU was making a back alley deal with the NCAA then I never would of said they would get the Death Penalty, However, they did not get the death penalty because they agreed to these sanctions in fear of getting the DP. Smart move on their part. Dumb on your part imho.

Ok...fair enough. Dumb on my part..... but what is dumber? Posting so adamantly something untrue, claiming it to be fact, without anything to back it up...... or posting things that were documented and providing the documentation. Oh I'm sure that you will say my posts...but at least I had something more substantial then "cuz my friend on the east coast said so", oh by the way....wasn't he wrong?

I did my homework. Posted every bit of it! So dumb argument.

[wimbo_pro]

Shoot dude I'm not gonna cry..... I am just thankful that someone on here had the intelligence to look up a document that explains how I was wrong instead of just telling me things like "You must be in Favor of Child Molesting." !



Who said THAT? Even I would defend you on that comment.