pre-mature celebration costs team a state championship...

[jason]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog/prep_rally/post/Touchdown-celebration-penalty-costs-Mass-team-a?urn=highschool-wp9491

[Saggy Aggie]

Once again, I think its a terrible penalty.

He raised his fist. If thats 'taunting'... then idk what to say.

[Maroon87]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog/prep_rally/post/Touchdown-celebration-penalty-costs-Mass-team-a?urn=highschool-wp9491

I'm fine with penalizing teams for coreographed celebrations after the play, but this kid was just genuinely excited. And isn't the pure joy of the players one of the reasons we love sports so much?

[NastySlot]

Once again, I think its a terrible penalty.

He raised his fist. If thats 'taunting'... then idk what to say.

I agree there has to be another way to enforce the penalty if it has to be one.

question why wouldn't it be a penalty for a qb that throws a td pass and throw up his arms...esp before reciever reaches the endzone?

[kaorder1999]

hes 25 yards away from the endzone....i have NO PROBLEM with that penalty!

[GrTigers6]

hes 25 yards away from the endzone....i have NO PROBLEM with that penalty!In my opinion him being that far out makes it more of a taunt than if it was 3 yards out. Because he is saying your not catching me. Probably not intentionally but could be seen as that by the opposing team. 3 yards out is more an excitement than a taunt

[toddg]

so i guess 16-17 year old kids cant get excited about making a game winning touchdown...i agree with the call..if the TD stood, the opposing players feelings would have been hurt and the trauma of that raised hand would cause serious emotionel stress....at the same time making the call caused the other team the hurt and stress..hmm..makes sense..

[GrTigers6]

I agree there has to be another way to enforce the penalty if it has to be one.

question why wouldn't it be a penalty for a qb that throws a td pass and throw up his arms...esp before reciever reaches the endzone?The difference there is the entire crowd is not watching the QB so therefore he is not calling attention to himself

[GrTigers6]

so i guess 16-17 year old kids cant get excited about making a game winning touchdown...i agree with the call..if the TD stood, the opposing players feelings would have been hurt and the trauma of that raised hand would cause serious emotionel stress....at the same time making the call caused the other team the hurt and stress..hmm..makes sense..We all have to control our emotions at certain times in our lives. And this is one of those times. Its no different than getting excited and spiking the ball without thinking about it being a penalty. You have to know when to show emotion and when not.

[GrTigers6]

Had he waited until he crossed the goal line then I bet it wouldnt have been called

[GrTigers6]

Had he waited until he crossed the goal line then I bet it wouldnt have been called One more thing yall dont realize is this has been a rule for quite some time. They just changed how it was enforced.

[kaorder1999]

what I dont understand is, THIS IS NOT A NEW RULE!! It has always been an unportsmanlike penalty. The only thing that has changed is that its being enforced from the spot where it happens. People are acting like this has just now become an Unsportsmanlike penalty. It just wasnt as big of a deal before because the touchdowns stood.

[Txbroadcaster]

what I dont understand is, THIS IS NOT A NEW RULE!! It has always been an unportsmanlike penalty. The only thing that has changed is that its being enforced from the spot where it happens. People are acting like this has just now become an Unsportsmanlike penalty. It just wasnt as big of a deal before because the touchdowns stood.


I think everyone who does not like the change knew it was already a rule..problem is two fold..one I still dont get it taking points off the board, I think that is bad..two how the rule is enforced now


A LB gets a sack stands up puts his arms in air, it will not be called ever unless he is taunting....how is that any different from a kid raising his arm while scoring? As long as he is not pointing back at the players chasing him I just dont understand how it is taunting

[kaorder1999]

because you are carrying the ball...When you h ave the ball in your hand the job you h ave is to get to the endzone. If someone running behind the ball carrier puts his hands up in the air then he will not be penalized. But when you are the ball carrier, GET TO THE ENDZONE. ITS SIMPLE. Anything other than that, whether it be altering your stride (high stepping), flipping, etc can pe penalized and I have NO problem with it.

Points get taken off the board all of the time for penalties. I have no problem with it.

[toddg]

after further investigation..what really happened is a girl flying an ultralite with a flock of geese following her was overhead and the runner pointed up and said "whoa! look at that" thus directing attention of the defenders away from making the tackle, which is against the rules...no TD!

[kaorder1999]

as a coach, we were told before the season started how it would be enforced. We were told all of the examples that CAN be penalized. My job as a coach was to teach my kids NOT to do it and explain to them how they COULD be penalized. We werent told this a day before the season started. We had time to relay this info to our kids and let them know our expectations as coaches.

As to whether or not its called all of the time, I couldnt care less. I just know that there is a chance that the acts could be penalized and if one of my players are boneheaded enough to do it then I have no problem with the penalty.

[kaorder1999]

I know when Im driving down the highway that if I speed ONE MILE PER HOUR over the limit then my action is subject to a citation if a police officer chooses to write me a ticket. I may or may not get a ticket but if I continue to get warnings then I will continue to break the law. Give me a citation and Im more than likely gonna be more careful next time.

The unsportnman like penalty enforced on the kickoff was nothing more than a warning. Granted, if they did it again and was penalized for it again they were subject to ejection by rule but by the time the young man got off of the field and the penalty was assessed to the kickoff, it was forgotten. Take their touchdown away and NOW you have their attention! Of course unless you are Gray and you do it again and get ejected! haha

[Manso/V8]

Good call, the right call.

[Tin Cup]

It's a stupid rule. Everyone knows the rule and the consequences for breaking it but that doesn't make it any better or worse.

In golf, there is a really stupid rule while Putting, if you put your putter down behind the ball and the wind gusts causing your ball to move you are penalized. By the rule " you caused the ball to move" when in reality the wind did it. Stupid rule but guess what, it's being changed for 2012.

Same should happen with this dumb rule. This is different than taunting. It's pure excitement.

[Manso/V8]

I hate taunting.

[regaleagle]

It's a taunt, plain and simple. He's telling everyone, "Look at me" or "we got you" or "praise God". Whatever he meant, it draws attention to him, belittles the other team, and is totally uncalled for and unnecessary. I agree with the rule, the ruling in this case, and the fact that a penalty should be enforced. The game is bigger than the athlete. He can celebrate after the play with his teammates, the same way it has been done for decades.

[GrTigers6]

It's a stupid rule. Everyone knows the rule and the consequences for breaking it but that doesn't make it any better or worse.

In golf, there is a really stupid rule while Putting, if you put your putter down behind the ball and the wind gusts causing your ball to move you are penalized. By the rule " you caused the ball to move" when in reality the wind did it. Stupid rule but guess what, it's being changed for 2012.

Same should happen with this dumb rule. This is different than taunting. It's pure excitement.So you think a player should celebrate before he scores?

[Tin Cup]

So you think a player should celebrate before he scores?

You either celebrate before and after or neither. Having the ball shouldn't change what you are allowed to do. How is chest bumping high fiving not taunting the other team. Why do we allow celebration after a score?

[GrTigers6]

You either celebrate before and after or neither. Having the ball shouldn't change what you are allowed to do. How is chest bumping high fiving not taunting the other team. Why do we allow celebration after a score?Thats excitement not taunting. If you do it while the ball is live then its taunting. its that simple

[Tin Cup]

I've seen coaches throw their arms up and celebrate a big play. Why are they not showing up the other team? Is taunting only taunting live or can taunting happen after a play is over. I already know the answer but my point being what is excitement and what is taunting. If taunting only happens when you have the ball, then why can it be called on a defensive player. Can a teammate run next to the ball carrier and raise his arms going into the endzone or is this also a penalty. Or how about if the QB throws the pass from the 10 and raises his arms as soon as he throws it.

[movethechain]

Call was correct, but that don't mean that I agree with the rule.
The spirit of the rule is sound, but in real life it doesn't always fit the spirit of the game.

--

[rb585]

Rule:

No player, substitute, coach or other person subject to the rules shall use abusive, threatening or obscene language or gestures, or engage in such acts that provoke ill will or are demeaning to an opponent, to game officials or to the image of the game, including but not limited to: (a) Pointing the finger(s), hand(s), arm(s) or ball at an opponent, or imitating the slashing of the throat. (b) Taunting, baiting or ridiculing an opponent verbally. (c) Inciting an opponent or spectators in any other way, such as simulating the firing of a weapon or placing a hand by the ear to request recognition. (d) Any delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed act by which a player (or players) attempts to focus attention upon himself (or themselves). (e) An unopposed ball carrier obviously altering stride as he approaches the opponent's goal line or diving into the end zone. (f) Removal of a player's helmet before he is in the team area (Exceptions: Team, media or injury timeouts; equipment adjustment; through play; between periods; and during a measurement for a first down). (g) Punching one's own chest or crossing one's arms in front of the chest while standing over a prone player. (h) Going into the stands to interact with spectators, or bowing at the waist after a good play.

I can't figure out which one of these he's in violation of...

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/high_school/football/view/20111206a_look_at_the_rule/

[Manso/V8]

The spirit of the rule is sound, but in real life it doesn't always fit the spirit of the game.

--
Good point.......but you have to draw the line somewhere, especially in high school. The "look at me" actions in the pros are something I do not like, I can understand that others do, and pro football is a product and entertainment after all. I feel differently about high school football. I am a fan, enjoy the games, the competition, and everything around Friday Night Lights, but in reality it is the lessons learned by the experience of high school football that are the most important. My kids gained so much from competing in high school sports that they couldn't have learned in a classroom. I would be very disappointed in one of my kids if they made this kind of display during a play, and I would expect them to keep their post play celebration within reason.

[Tin Cup]

I'd like to know if any parent on here celebrated as their child ran into the endzone. Do you feel that you did this out of pride and pure joy or were you trying to tell all the other parents how good your son is. I think the problem with this rule is that you have to view it from what the player is expressing. If the kid is doing it out of excitement then he shouldn't be punished just like the post score celebration. Now, if he is looking at, pointing at, or making any motion towards the other team or fans I have zero problem with the flag.

[OLE'BULL]

I think everyone who does not like the change knew it was already a rule..problem is two fold..one I still dont get it taking points off the board, I think that is bad..two how the rule is enforced now


A LB gets a sack stands up puts his arms in air, it will not be called ever unless he is taunting....how is that any different from a kid raising his arm while scoring? As long as he is not pointing back at the players chasing him I just dont understand how it is taunting

Once a LB gets a sack, the play is dead. This play was still alive, alot can happen in 25 yds. Without a doubt I agree with the flag, I just dont agree with the rule taking away the TD. Penalize them on the kickoff. Poor kid...

[kaorder1999]

I'd like to know if any parent on here celebrated as their child ran into the endzone. Do you feel that you did this out of pride and pure joy or were you trying to tell all the other parents how good your son is. I think the problem with this rule is that you have to view it from what the player is expressing. If the kid is doing it out of excitement then he shouldn't be punished just like the post score celebration. Now, if he is looking at, pointing at, or making any motion towards the other team or fans I have zero problem with the flag.

so allow the official to distinguish as to whether its done out of excitement or taunting? thats ridiculous in my opinion. Rule says do NOT celebrate before the score and that makes it an easy call. Simple...just dont do it. Then no penalty call. I dont care what you say, doing it 25 yards before getting to the endzone when there is a defender behind you in TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR!

[GrTigers6]

I'd like to know if any parent on here celebrated as their child ran into the endzone. Do you feel that you did this out of pride and pure joy or were you trying to tell all the other parents how good your son is. I think the problem with this rule is that you have to view it from what the player is expressing. If the kid is doing it out of excitement then he shouldn't be punished just like the post score celebration. Now, if he is looking at, pointing at, or making any motion towards the other team or fans I have zero problem with the flag.Really?
What a parent does has no bearing on it. There is no rule about a parent celebrating. Now if they ran out on the field and celebrated with their kid then yeah that would be penalty.
The key here to remember is not celebrate until you actually do what you are celebrating. How many times have we seen a kid/Pro player drop the ball or fumble it before they entered the endzone.
It would be like a basketball player celebrating the winning shot before he shoots it.

[kaorder1999]

Really?
What a parent does has no bearing on it. There is no rule about a parent celebrating. Now if they ran out on the field and celebrated with their kid then yeah that would be penalty.
The key here to remember is not celebrate until you actually do what you are celebrating. How many times have we seen a kid/Pro player drop the ball or fumble it before they entered the endzone.
It would be like a basketball player celebrating the winning shot before he shoots it.

amen

[Tin Cup]

Why are we teaching kids to celebrate after they scored? I thought we wanted to avoid "celebrations" with this rule.

You can tell a kid not to celebrate in practice all you want but when he makes the game winning score he's just caught up in what makes the sport great, winning.

[GrTigers6]

Why are we teaching kids to celebrate after they scored? I thought we wanted to avoid "celebrations" with this rule.

You can tell a kid not to celebrate in practice all you want but when he makes the game winning score he's just caught up in what makes the sport great, winning.Yes absolutely, AFTER HE SCORES!

[GrTigers6]

If he waits untill he scores then he has a reason to celebrate! if he hasnt scored then he is taunting because he has no reason to celebrate yet!

[Tin Cup]

Why is it accepted after? What happened to act like you've been there before give the ball back to the official.

[GrTigers6]

Why is it accepted after? What happened to act like you've been there before give the ball back to the official.This coming from someone who said let the kids show excitement?

[Tin Cup]

This coming from someone who said let the kids show excitement?

I'm saying both or neither. We don't allow kids to stand up and point first down AFTER the play. What's the difference?

[GrTigers6]

I'm saying both or neither. We don't allow kids to stand up and point first down AFTER the play. What's the difference?I just explained the difference. After td is excitement, before is taunting because you havent scored yet.

[GrTigers6]

The first penalty Grey got was post td celebration penalty, for a throat slash at the camera.

[Tin Cup]

So a player can stand up and point first down and not get flagged in high school?

[GrTigers6]

So a player can stand up and point first down and not get flagged in high school?No that is actually in the interpretation. But that is a deadball foul because the ball is dead

[Tin Cup]

So what is a post td celebration termed? Also dead ball? Not being smart just trying to figure out why scoring plays are treated differently.

[defense51]

If only the runner had been stopped, seems this all falls on the defenders shoulders! If you don't want to see a celebration, simply don't let the opposing players score... its a rule so it stands. But its like no tolerance rules, sometimes good judgement needs to used to determine whether to throw the flag or not.

[GrTigers6]

So what is a post td celebration termed? Also dead ball? Not being smart just trying to figure out why scoring plays are treated differently.Post td is dead ball pre td is live ball and therefore from spot of foul. Dead ball is on kickoff

[LH Panther Mom]

Act like you've been there before...


If any of my kids ever scored a touchdown, the entire state would hear me screaming! However, my kids know the rules and know what the penalties are for breaking them.

[LH Panther Mom]

Oh and waaaaaaah :bigcry:

(Not intended toward anyone in particular...)

[Tin Cup]

Post td is dead ball pre td is live ball and therefore from spot of foul. Dead ball is on kickoff

So if both are dead ball, why is celebrating a Td accepted but not celebrating a first down.

This is why I say all celebrations are ok or zero celebrations are ok. I still think its a dumb rule but thanks GR for the clarifications.

[GrTigers6]

So if both are dead ball, why is celebrating a Td accepted but not celebrating a first down.

This is why I say all celebrations are ok or zero celebrations are ok. I still think its a dumb rule but thanks GR for the clarifications.What do you mean accepted?

[Tin Cup]

What do you mean accepted?

Acceptable/allowed

[GrTigers6]

Acceptable/allowedYou can think Michael Irvin for that!!! But the reason is the rules committee chose to make it a penalty

[Additup]

NCAA refs ain't touching this rule. Called once this year in Div 1 against LSUs punter but, refs know its bad news...rule wont change until VEGAS has to payout because someone enforces it...HS refs are overstepping big time with it.

[ronwx5x]

How are HS Refs overstepping if they enforce a rule that is known to all players? If a player chooses to ignore a rule, he should be punished. If it hurts the team I think the other members will let him know how they feel. If the UIL decides to change the rule, so be it.

As for me, I don't like to see anyone call unnecessary attention to themselves. After all, football is a TEAM sport and no one player would reach the goalline without help from the TEAM.

[yellaseeker]

Waaaa...... :crying: So tired of hearing about this taunting crap. I think anybody playing the game that gets their feelings hurt cause they're getting their ass kicked on the field or someone is making fun of them, calling them nasty little names, telling them they are their daddy or "taunting" them should be hit square in the mouth and forced to take up violin lessons. Ok, if we must have this damn titty baby freakin rule then atleast interpret it right. In most peoples mind that are of average intelligence, if a player does not address or direct anything toward the defensive player then it should not be taunting. Good grief, your telling me that just because a slow ass kid trailing 15 yrds behind a guy that's going in for a score gets his little feelings heart cause he can't catch up, that we need such a stupid ass rule. I understand some of you guys stance on the outcome because the rule "is" in effect even though it leaves too much room for interpretation. But what really chapps my ass is that some of you support this kind of penalty. You people are ruining the sport that we love dearly. It is people like some of you that implemented this rule a while ago and, if people like you keep coming up with and supporting this kind of bull, those boys will be out there playing in skirts before long. Unless the celebration or taunting impedes the process of the game then leave it alone. No need for any of you liberal lawyers to waste your time trying to convince me otherwise by using bull analogy's or comparing it to breaking the law. You've already gave your opinion so here is mine and, there is no response needed.

[Saggy Aggie]

Not disagreeing with the call on the field. I just think the enforcement sucks. Taking points off the board is stupid. penalize the kickoff for TAUNTS.


If the player taunts and doesnt end up scoring on the play, flag 15 yards from the end of the run. If he scores, flag the ensuing kickoff. Dont take points off the board.

[TheDOCTORdre]

couple of thoughts

1. The celebration didn't cost the team the state championship, the following INT did
2. I hate the rule
3. If you don't want the other team celebrating, you should stop them
4. the other player, Gomes comes of as a jerkoff

[Additup]

How are HS Refs overstepping if they enforce a rule that is known to all
players? If a player chooses to ignore a rule, he should be punished. If it hurts the team I think the other members will let him know how they feel. If the UIL decides to change the rule, so be it.

As for me, I don't like to see anyone call unnecessary attention to themselves. After all, football is a TEAM sport and no one player would reach the goalline without help from the TEAM.
Officials don't call EVERY holding violation they see...officials warn coaches about "getting back" on the sideline and warn players lining up in the neutral zone. Good officials know what NOT to call. Once had a ref tell me don't flag anything you don't know the signal for.
UIL uses NCAA rules so the NCAA has to change the rule. UIL can choose not to enforce it like they do with ejected players.

[Eagle 1]

Stupid rule.
I hope it gets changed.

[LH Panther Mom]

Just a point to ponder for those of you that "hate" the rule, or find it stupid, or think it's pointless, or etc...


Hypothetically, "your" team is playing and is ahead by 4 with :30 on the clock. The other team has the ball and GQ QB throws a beautiful pass to their stud WR. He's going, going, gone with no one within 10 yards of him...until he gets an unsportsmanlike conduct flag on the 25 for taunting. They line up, and try to punch it in, but time runs out. By all "rights", from your opinions, the other team should have won. But, because Mr. Stud Muffin couldn't control himself, your team gets a gimme instead.

Still "hate" the rule????? :thinking:

[Manso/V8]

Waaaa...... :crying: So tired of hearing about this taunting crap. I think anybody playing the game that gets their feelings hurt cause they're getting their ass kicked on the field or someone is making fun of them, calling them nasty little names, telling them they are their daddy or "taunting" them should be hit square in the mouth and forced to take up violin lessons. Ok, if we must have this damn titty baby freakin rule then atleast interpret it right. In most peoples mind that are of average intelligence, if a player does not address or direct anything toward the defensive player then it should not be taunting. Good grief, your telling me that just because a slow ass kid trailing 15 yrds behind a guy that's going in for a score gets his little feelings heart cause he can't catch up, that we need such a stupid ass rule. I understand some of you guys stance on the outcome because the rule "is" in effect even though it leaves too much room for interpretation. But what really chapps my ass is that some of you support this kind of penalty. You people are ruining the sport that we love dearly. It is people like some of you that implemented this rule a while ago and, if people like you keep coming up with and supporting this kind of bull, those boys will be out there playing in skirts before long. Unless the celebration or taunting impedes the process of the game then leave it alone. No need for any of you liberal lawyers to waste your time trying to convince me otherwise by using bull analogy's or comparing it to breaking the law. You've already gave your opinion so here is mine and, there is no response needed.

Brilliant! YOU have changed my view completely, I no longer despise taunting, I love it now. Based on your logic, UIL should implement rules to ENCOURAGE TAUNTING! What is your view on wife beating?

[Eagle 1]

Just a point to ponder for those of you that "hate" the rule, or find it stupid, or think it's pointless, or etc...


Hypothetically, "your" team is playing and is ahead by 4 with :30 on the clock. The other team has the ball and GQ QB throws a beautiful pass to their stud WR. He's going, going, gone with no one within 10 yards of him...until he gets an unsportsmanlike conduct flag on the 25 for taunting. They line up, and try to punch it in, but time runs out. By all "rights", from your opinions, the other team should have won. But, because Mr. Stud Muffin couldn't control himself, your team gets a gimme instead.

Still "hate" the rule????? :thinking:

Yep.
Let's change it around. Let's say "hypothetically" I had a son playing on "Stud Muffin's" team who just had his chance of finally earning a treasured ring, BUT.... because some "homer" ref made a "Judgement call" (because that's what it is) and threw a flag on what he interpreted as "celebration".

Yep it's a stupid rule. I'm not agains't penalizing a team as a dead ball foul and enforcing it on the kickoff, but don't ruin the dreams of the rest of the players on the team.

[regaleagle]

I think the main point to keep in mind here is that this taunting rule is being enforced strictly this year, even moreso in the playoffs. Whether it gets changed in the future is anybody's guess, but for now we see it being enforced strictly. If this is the case, all coaching staffs need to make the players very, very aware of this and, for right now at least, not do anything that can be construed as taunting the other team.

[Additup]

In the LSU Florida game where it was called, the commentators pointed out that officials said the taunting would have to be egregious to flag it and take points off of the board...

[Tin Cup]

I'd personally rather earn the win and not be gifted the win. I'd certainly take the win, just like a blown call by the ref but it would always leave the other team with the "ref beat us" mentality. The player earned the TD even if his hand went up early.

[LH Panther Mom]

I'd personally rather earn the win and not be gifted the win. I'd certainly take the win, just like a blown call by the ref but it would always leave the other team with the "ref beat us" mentality. The player earned the TD even if his hand went up early.
What if it's a chop block penalty...or block in the back that gets the TD called back? Or is it just the taunting one that ticks people off?

[Eagle 1]

What if it's a chop block penalty...or block in the back that gets the TD called back? Or is it just the taunting one that ticks people off?

Like I said, a taunting penalty is a "judgement" call, the other two are pretty much cut and dry.

[ronwx5x]

Like I said, a taunting penalty is a "judgement" call, the other two are pretty much cut and dry.

Most calls are judgement calls, based on the rulebook. If I had just $1 for every time a call has been debated on here based on "judgement" I could live anywhere I want. If the rule is wrong, do your best to get it changed.

There seems to be a generational gap on the opinion of taunting. I still think football is a team sport. Yes, there are individual outstanding athletes, but none could be what they are unless there is a team.

[Eagle 1]

Most calls are judgement calls, based on the rulebook. If I had just $1 for every time a call has been debated on here based on "judgement" I could live anywhere I want.



Not really. A chop block and a block in the back are pretty cut and dry and are performed against another player.
Taunting is a judgement call no matter how you slice it. What appears to be taunting to you, may appear not to be to me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not for players taunting, I'm just against how it being penalized. Like I said before, football is NOT a game for nice people.

[TexMike]

Many, many calls that we make are judgement calls. It is not just uns conduct. We make a judgement as to whether a defender might have been across the line of scrimmage or not at the snap, we judge if a hold had an effect on a play before dropping the flag, we judge if a defender INTENDED to impede a receiver before we flag pass interference, etc etc etc They are all capable of erasing a TD. I am not supporting the call that was made in this specific situation but do agree that the penalty enforcement for unsportsmanlike conduct needed to be changed as too many players (mainkly at the college level) were ignoring the rule since it had no serious impact on them if they were flagged.

[kaorder1999]

Many, many calls that we make are judgement calls. It is not just uns conduct. We make a judgement as to whether a defender might have been across the line of scrimmage or not at the snap, we judge if a hold had an effect on a play before dropping the flag, we judge if a defender INTENDED to impede a receiver before we flag pass interference, etc etc etc They are all capable of erasing a TD. I am not supporting the call that was made in this specific situation but do agree that the penalty enforcement for unsportsmanlike conduct needed to be changed as too many players (mainkly at the college level) were ignoring the rule since it had no serious impact on them if they were flagged.

amen

[Eagle 1]

I'm not sure if there is any truth to this post, but this was posted after Edna lost a game this year when a TD was called back for a celebration call.
For those not aware, Blanco had done the same thing in the game and no call was made by the officials.
Which in my book, makes that a judgement call.


Re: Edna/Blanco video of the call
by OysterShucker » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:31 pm

This news just in the Head of the Corpus Chapter has talked with us, and the offical who made the call will have to send an appology letter to #16 and to the Edna Cowboys. He will be placed on a 2 year suspension. According to the Head official in Austin the tape has been sent to every ref in the state as to call and not to call and probably will not be called again for a long while. So Edna fans we do have some closeure and will see it in a few weeks in the local newspaper in the form of a formal appology. The call potentially could have caused Edna School district to Loose $30,000 in revenue because Blanco is likely to Beat Jourdation and then Lago because it is difficult to beat the same team twice in a year and then play the Chicago Bears from 1985 (Hempsted). Edna fans all is not lost we can still win a state tract meet with the fastest man in 2a.

[Manso/V8]

I'm not sure if there is any truth to this post, but this was posted after Edna lost a game this year when a TD was called back for a celebration call.
For those not aware, Blanco had done the same thing in the game and no call was made by the officials.
Which in my book, makes that a judgement call.

I wonder how much of the $30,000 in lost revenue they are going to peg on the player who fumbled in the series after the penalty was called?

[Txbroadcaster]

Many, many calls that we make are judgement calls. It is not just uns conduct. We make a judgement as to whether a defender might have been across the line of scrimmage or not at the snap, we judge if a hold had an effect on a play before dropping the flag, we judge if a defender INTENDED to impede a receiver before we flag pass interference, etc etc etc They are all capable of erasing a TD. I am not supporting the call that was made in this specific situation but do agree that the penalty enforcement for unsportsmanlike conduct needed to be changed as too many players (mainkly at the college level) were ignoring the rule since it had no serious impact on them if they were flagged.


BS..an offside is simple, was the guy over the LOS or not..a hold is simiple, did the offensive player use ways illegal to make the block...a taunting or not means you have to get into the players head and decide yes or no on the intent of his actions..one is subjective, one is physical

[Manso/V8]

It comes down to.....
Some people/fans like or can at least tolerate high-stepping, fist pumping, pointing up in the air, and other pre-score self-congratulatory actions.
Some people/fans do not like and don't want to tolerate high-stepping, fist pumping, pointing up in the air, and other pre-score self-congratulatory actions.

[TexMike]

BS..an offside is simple, was the guy over the LOS or not..a hold is simiple, did the offensive player use ways illegal to make the block...a taunting or not means you have to get into the players head and decide yes or no on the intent of his actions..one is subjective, one is physical

I suspect you have never worn the stripes because if you had you would know that judgment is involved in most all calls. 2 guys can look at the same exact act and one judges it to be a foul while the other judges it not to be. If you doubt that, come over to the zebra boards and look at the disputes we have over video clips we discuss. And one perfect example is pass interference which is a foul only if you judge the defender INTENDED to interfere.

[Additup]

I suspect you have never worn the stripes because if you had you would know that judgment is involved in most all calls. 2 guys can look at the same exact act and one judges it to be a foul while the other judges it not to be. If you doubt that, come over to the zebra boards and look at the disputes we have over video clips we discuss. And one perfect example is pass interference which is a foul only if you judge the defender INTENDED to interfere.
VERY TRUE...Officiating is one of two things that "fans" think is easy. The only thing that may be "easier" is calling plays.

[pancho villa]

I don't think there should be any rules at all aginst taunting. If you can back it up good for you. If you can't take it don't play football sissy boy.

[GrTigers6]

The key thing with this call is he is clearing taunting because he was outside the 25 yardline when he did it. Thats showing off in my opinion. It would have been less taunting act if he was at the 2. That could be considered excitement! Again no player should celebrate before they score, That is what is dumb here. Wait till you accomplish the feat before you celebrate it.
Again I say you dont see a basketball player celebrating before he makes the game winning shot do you?

[Additup]

you dont see a basketball player celebrating before he makes the game winning shot do you?
Every ESPN Top 10 breakaway dunk is taunting...a 360 dunk should be a layup. Act like you've scored 2 points before, right?

[ccmom]

The key thing with this call is he is clearing taunting because he was outside the 25 yardline when he did it. Thats showing off in my opinion. It would have been less taunting act if he was at the 2. That could be considered excitement! Again no player should celebrate before they score, That is what is dumb here. Wait till you accomplish the feat before you celebrate it.
Again I say you dont see a basketball player celebrating before he makes the game winning shot do you?

Just so that I understand the rule, celebrating AFTER the touchdown is within the rules, right?

But, as in Tin Cup's post, celebrating AFTER a first down is not within the rules?

So whether or not you score on the play, dictates whether you can celebrate AFTER?

By the way, I'm pretty sure I understand the USC penalty for celebrating BEFORE the score. Most of all, I think it's just a dumb thing to do...period. I'm just trying to understand the rules for after the TD (or FG or safety I guess) is complete. Tin Cup's post got me to thinking about it. Thanks!

[GrTigers6]

Just so that I understand the rule, celebrating AFTER the touchdown is within the rules, right?

But, as in Tin Cup's post, celebrating AFTER a first down is not within the rules?

So whether or not you score on the play, dictates whether you can celebrate AFTER?

By the way, I'm pretty sure I understand the USC penalty for celebrating BEFORE the score. Most of all, I think it's just a dumb thing to do...period. I'm just trying to understand the rules for after the TD (or FG or safety I guess) is complete. Tin Cup's post got me to thinking about it. Thanks!Both are in the rule book. The first down thing is actually stated in the the redding interpretation guide, And states an exxagerated first down signal. The other UNC is anything drawing attention to himself obvious alteration of stride, finger pointing, diving into the end zone for example. Exxcessive celebration is a penalty as well even after the td. There is just alot more leniancy. There is a grey area when it comes to what is taunting and what is ok before td which makes it dificult to judge. Hopefully by next year they will clarify more examples of good calls and good no calls.

[GrTigers6]

Every ESPN Top 10 breakaway dunk is taunting...a 360 dunk should be a layup. Act like you've scored 2 points before, right?That is within the rules is it not?

[ccmom]

Both are in the rule book. The first down thing is actually stated in the the redding interpretation guide, And states an exxagerated first down signal. The other UNC is anything drawing attention to himself obvious alteration of stride, finger pointing, diving into the end zone for example. Exxcessive celebration is a penalty as well even after the td. There is just alot more leniancy. There is a grey area when it comes to what is taunting and what is ok before td which makes it dificult to judge. Hopefully by next year they will clarify more examples of good calls and good no calls.

Clear as mud:2thumbsup. LOL...thanks, though. :thumbsup:

[Eagle 1]

The key thing with this call is he is clearing taunting because he was outside the 25 yardline when he did it. Thats showing off in my opinion. It would have been less taunting act if he was at the 2. That could be considered excitement! Again no player should celebrate before they score, That is what is dumb here. Wait till you accomplish the feat before you celebrate it.
Again I say you dont see a basketball player celebrating before he makes the game winning shot do you?


So, spiking the ball AFTER you cross the goal line is legal? Come On Man! LOL....

When I played football many moons ago, spiking the ball was the only illegal form of celebration.

[Txbroadcaster]

I suspect you have never worn the stripes because if you had you would know that judgment is involved in most all calls. 2 guys can look at the same exact act and one judges it to be a foul while the other judges it not to be. If you doubt that, come over to the zebra boards and look at the disputes we have over video clips we discuss. And one perfect example is pass interference which is a foul only if you judge the defender INTENDED to interfere.

Yes I have worn the stripes...worn them for football for 3 years and was a ump in baseball starting at 15 until I was 23.

My point was holding is a physical call, does not matter the intent, even if the player does not mean to and official is not having to decide what the kid was thinking. Taunting calls are all about an official having to get in the kds head and go ok was he taunting, what was he thinking.

[Bullaholic]

After thinking about it some more, I agree that taking a TD off the board for taunting prior to the score is a bit harsh. Maybe giving the offending team 1st and 10 at the opponent's 20 just like in OT would be more appropriate for the offense. Another option would be ejection of the taunting player.

But, for right now, as many have pointed out,---the rule is the rule, period, and all teams are aware of it. Can't help but feel for all of the other players on the taunting team, though, if an SC ends up being taken away because of a penalty like this.

[kaorder1999]

i was a part of a game where an interception was returned by us for a touchdown down the opposite sideline, away from us. Official on our sideline runs into a player down our sideline (player was running down sideline in celebration). Player was not on field but was in the officials white space. Touchdown called back. I was a player then. Ever since then I am VERY vocal about our players staying back and giving the officials their space. Had the touchdown not been called back, the RULE wouldn't be so stuck in my head.

[GrTigers6]

So, spiking the ball AFTER you cross the goal line is legal? Come On Man! LOL....

When I played football many moons ago, spiking the ball was the only illegal form of celebration.No spiking the ball is illegal anytime, Except for downing it

[TexMike]

Yes I have worn the stripes...worn them for football for 3 years and was a ump in baseball starting at 15 until I was 23.

My point was holding is a physical call, does not matter the intent, even if the player does not mean to and official is not having to decide what the kid was thinking. Taunting calls are all about an official having to get in the kds head and go ok was he taunting, what was he thinking.
I don't know squat about baseball but if you only did FB for 3 years then you never got to the point where you really knew how to call the game. And getting to that point means you DO have the ability to, and DO, judge intent on many any calls. A young FB official does not understand that and gets mired in the black and white without progressing to the level where you can apply your understanding of the rules, the game and the players to include intent in your judgment.

[Txbroadcaster]

I don't know squat about baseball but if you only did FB for 3 years then you never got to the point where you really knew how to call the game. And getting to that point means you DO have the ability to, and DO, judge intent on many any calls. A young FB official does not understand that and gets mired in the black and white without progressing to the level where you can apply your understanding of the rules, the game and the players to include intent in your judgment.

So sorry I am not a master like you are, I bow at your friggin throne

[TexMike]

Just the facts ma'am, just the facts

[Txbroadcaster]

Just the facts ma'am, just the facts

no your giving your perception to say what you said.

And your basically saying officials decide intent on holding calls and other physical fouls...why? If it happens and you see why dont you call it?

[TexMike]

What I am telling you is that i have NEVER seen a 3 year football official (myself included) who understands how to officiate the game properly. It is too complicated and at that stage all you are doing is learing black and white. You are not learning the nuances, and it is the nuances, which include intent in many fouls, that makes something flaggable or not. There are many "judgments" made on the football field by zebras and for you to presume the only one is one related to whether or not something is uns conduct demonstrates how little you know about the rules or how they are to be enforced. A'hold" requires multiple judgments before it is flagged. It does not siply "happen" If you think it does then that is just proof you never advanced to the higher level of understanding of the game.

[Txbroadcaster]

What I am telling you is that i have NEVER seen a 3 year football official (myself included) who understands how to officiate the game properly. It is too complicated and at that stage all you are doing is learing black and white. You are not learning the nuances, and it is the nuances, which include intent in many fouls, that makes something flaggable or not. There are many "judgments" made on the football field by zebras and for you to presume the only one is one related to whether or not something is uns conduct demonstrates how little you know about the rules or how they are to be enforced. A'hold" requires multiple judgments before it is flagged. It does not siply "happen" If you think it does then that is just proof you never advanced to the higher level of understanding of the game.

ok Sir Mike I am sorry I have not advanced to the higher understanding of the game as you have

[TexMike]

ok Sir Mike I am sorry I have not advanced to the higher understanding of the game as you have

Has nothing to do with "Sir Mike". You are no different than any other 3d year official , and may be even worse off depending how long you have been out of the game. i would not assume I have that higher understanding of baseball with the very limited experience I have with that game. Does not make you a bad person, just means you are not copetent to speak to certain things, i.e. when judgment is or is not required on a football field by an official. I have no idea what is required to broadcast a sports contest and would not try to tell you what is or is not required to do so.

[TheDOCTORdre]

so you misspoke when you said I suspect you have never worn the stripes, what you meant was I suspect you have never worn the stripes for ________ amount of time:stirpot:

[TexMike]

correct

[Txbroadcaster]

Has nothing to do with "Sir Mike". You are no different than any other 3d year official , and may be even worse off depending how long you have been out of the game. i would not assume I have that higher understanding of baseball with the very limited experience I have with that game. Does not make you a bad person, just means you are not copetent to speak to certain things, i.e. when judgment is or is not required on a football field by an official. I have no idea what is required to broadcast a sports contest and would not try to tell you what is or is not required to do so.

Get...Over...yourself..sorry but your coming across as arrogant and I know it all and no one else on here has the ability to decide these topics because I am the one who has the years and you dont. We all can give our thoughts whether we played, did not play or whatever..to discount someone just because they dont have your years as a ref IMO is demeaning..I played this game, was an official, coached the game and have broadcasted I feel I know somethings( and have been called a know it all as well lol). So yes I think I do have some insight to provide

[TexMike]

Problem is you lost whatever credibility you had regarding your understading of how games are officiated by inferring uns condust was the only judgment call officials have to make so that should be removed from them as they are unprepared to do that. You can go on all day about how the rule is stupid, how the call that was made was or was not in accordance with the written rules, etc. That is stuff most all fans and followers of the game do. But to say what goes on inside the mind of an experienced football official, you are not qualified to do.

[Cam]

WHEW!!!....my eyes got this big when I first glanced at this thread....especially with the first 3 words......but all is well......:eek:

[Txbroadcaster]

. But to say what goes on inside the mind of an experienced football official, you are not qualified to do.


And neither are you unless your talking about yourself

[LH Panther Mom]

And neither are you unless your talking about yourself
Wow! :doh: If there is ANY official in the State that has a clue, it's Mike.

[Tin Cup]

Ok I'm ready to ask my 2 dumb questions of the day?

Why is spiking the ball not intentional grounding?

If a player spikes the ball in an obviously backwards motion is it considered a fumble. I'm assuming a ref would give the player credit for this in a spiking situation.

PS TXB can't answer. Not smart enough and not nearly enough stripe experience

[TexMike]

It depends when the ball is thrown down to the ground. If it is after the play is dead, it is just a spike (unsportsmanlike conduct). If it is while the ball is alive (before he scores for example) then you are right, there could be some other things to think about. If ball goes forward it would be an illegal forward pass (5 yards from spot of foul and loss of down). If it goes backwards it would be a backwards pass and ball would be live for either team to recover and advance.

[Tin Cup]

I'm asking from a QB trying to spike the ball to stop clock only not in a celebratory manner

[Sweetwater Red]

Ok I'm ready to ask my 2 dumb questions of the day?

Why is spiking the ball not intentional grounding?

If a player spikes the ball in an obviously backwards motion is it considered a fumble. I'm assuming a ref would give the player credit for this in a spiking situation.

PS TXB can't answer. Not smart enough and not nearly enough stripe experience

Okay, since you're willing to post questions that there are probably obvious answers to then I'll do the same. Lol

Who decides when to run the clock in the second half or the fourth quarter of a rout?

Does the losing coach tell the referee and that's all it takes or does the winning coach have to agree?

[ExScoop]

What about baseball players who hit a home run and the players come out to give high 5s

Also volleyball players celebrate on the court after an ace or a kill

Also when a basketball player hits free throw and he gets a high five

Also when a track and field runner finishes first and raises his hands to celebrat

Same thing in soccer after a player has a goal

also tennis players when a player makes a good hit over the net and the players slap hands

[YTBulldogs]

Okay, since you're willing to post questions that there are probably obvious answers to then I'll do the same. Lol

Who decides when to run the clock in the second half or the fourth quarter of a rout?

Does the losing coach tell the referee and that's all it takes or does the winning coach have to agree?

Most often, the losing coach speaks up and request's the clock to run without his players knowing. Most times, not always, the winning coach agrees.

[TexMike]

If the QB throws the ball to the ground to stop the clock imediately after controlling the snap, he has not fouled. But you are right, if he throws it behind him, that is a backward pass and stays live.

[TexMike]

Okay, since you're willing to post questions that there are probably obvious answers to then I'll do the same. Lol

Who decides when to run the clock in the second half or the fourth quarter of a rout?

Does the losing coach tell the referee and that's all it takes or does the winning coach have to agree?

Generally the losing coach will request it and we will do it until asked not to do so by the winning coach. Some guys want to ask the losing coach if he wants clock run. I think that puts the coach in a bad situation and prefer to just do it and then let him ask that it not be run if that is what he wants.

[Txbroadcaster]

Ok I'm ready to ask my 2 dumb questions of the day?

Why is spiking the ball not intentional grounding?

If a player spikes the ball in an obviously backwards motion is it considered a fumble. I'm assuming a ref would give the player credit for this in a spiking situation.

PS TXB can't answer. Not smart enough and not nearly enough stripe experience


hey I am just caveman, this football confuses me

[Tin Cup]

hey I am just caveman, this football confuses me

LOL sorry had to do it!

[Txbroadcaster]

LOL sorry had to do it!


It is ok..I had to get someone to read this to me so me could understand

[Tin Cup]

It is ok..I had to get someone to read this to me so me could understand

Well I know G can't read, must have been Matt328 huh?!

[Txbroadcaster]

Well I know G can't read, must have been Matt328 huh?!


hell no..I went with someone edumacated..my wife..she went to a big HS AND COLLEGE

[Sweetwater Red]

Generally the losing coach will request it and we will do it until asked not to do so by the winning coach. Some guys want to ask the losing coach if he wants clock run. I think that puts the coach in a bad situation and prefer to just do it and then let him ask that it not be run if that is what he wants.

Oh okay. It's not as clear cut as I thought it was and thanks for answering. You obviously have more than three years of officiating experience. :devil:

[Eagle 1]

What I am telling you is that i have NEVER seen a 3 year football official (myself included) who understands how to officiate the game properly. It is too complicated and at that stage all you are doing is learing black and white. You are not learning the nuances, and it is the nuances, which include intent in many fouls, that makes something flaggable or not. There are many "judgments" made on the football field by zebras and for you to presume the only one is one related to whether or not something is uns conduct demonstrates how little you know about the rules or how they are to be enforced. A'hold" requires multiple judgments before it is flagged. It does not siply "happen" If you think it does then that is just proof you never advanced to the higher level of understanding of the game.


So your admiting that when a refs actually SEES a player holding on offense and doesn't throw a flag its because the ref who seen the hold made "multiple judgements" in that split second and decided it really wasn't a hold after all.

NICE......Go smoke another one bro.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNOlwEH2Oi4

[TexMike]

It comes with experience. You are able to judge on point of attack, degree of restriction and impact on play before pulling the flag. The more plays you see, the more prepared you are to react when you see what should be flagged.

[garciap77]

so you misspoke when you said I suspect you have never worn the stripes, what you meant was I suspect you have never worn the stripes for ________ amount of time:stirpot:


http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd185/garciap77/Smilies/referee.gifI was here!!!:D

[garciap77]

hey I am just caveman, this football confuses me

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd185/garciap77/Smilies/profile.jpg

[pirate4state]

Can you just admit that there IS holding on every play? :D

[Eagle 1]

Can you just admit that there IS holding on every play? :D

I guess his still trying to "judge on point of attack, degree of restriction and impact on play" before answering that question. LOL.

[TexMike]

That question on holding was directed at me? That is one of the most common and tired "fanisms" out there. There is NOT holding on every play by the rulebook definition of "holding".

[Eagle 1]

That question on holding was directed at me?

Well who do you think he was talking to? LOL....
He certainly wasn't asking the rest of us who don't have at 3 years of experience officiating games.

[ccmom]

Well who do you think he was talking to? LOL....
He certainly wasn't asking the rest of us who don't have at 3 years of experience officiating games.

P4S is a dude?? :eek::)

[pirate4state]

That question on holding was directed at me? That is one of the most common and tired "fanisms" out there. There is NOT holding on every play by the rulebook definition of "holding".

You talking to me? LOL

Yes sir, I was asking you.

Will you draw me a picture of what holding by rulebook definition would look like? Or link me to a clip? I really would like to stop yelling "HOLDING" all the time. Thanks in advance.

[pirate4state]

I guess his still trying to "judge on point of attack, degree of restriction and impact on play" before answering that question. LOL.


Well who do you think he was talking to? LOL....
He certainly wasn't asking the rest of us who don't have at 3 years of experience officiating games.


P4S is a dude?? :eek::)

I'm the Dude. You're Mr. Lebowski. haha

[GrTigers6]

You talking to me? LOL

Yes sir, I was asking you.

Will you draw me a picture of what holding by rulebook definition would look like? Or link me to a clip? I really would like to stop yelling "HOLDING" all the time. Thanks in advance.Will that REALLY make you stop?:D

[TexMike]

Holding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84YF5Mi3HsA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-VffItdNAU

Not Holding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3NQMCegxC0
From a teaching document on officiating:

Holding is probably the most difficult penalty for officials to master. We've all heard coaches and fans say “You could call holding
on every play!” Very little if any truth lies in that statement. Holding is subjective to the degree and effect on the play. It also
changes from the level of competition. What is holding in lower level games may or may not be holding at the high school,
college, or pro level. What if we called holding on every play until the players quit holding? The players couldn't play, the coaches
couldn't coach, and the fans would leave. It would be you, the official, as the focal point, and that would lead to a very long
afternoon or evening and hardly resemble the game of football. When making a judgment on holding try using these
philosophies: Call any major take down that will embarrass you or your crew if it were not called. Even if it is not a take down, call
holding at the point of attack. Did the blocker gain an unfair advantage from the hold? Did the defender have his jersey
stretched or have to reach for the ball carrier with one arm? Was he taken in a direction by the hold that he didn't want to go in
the first place? Did the defender give up on his pursuit? These are all factors to help make your decision. If you decide to call
holding and throw the flag, be able to describe in a few words the nature of the foul. Know if it was a take down, a hook and
restrict, a jersey stretch, a twist and turn. If you can't put it into a category of holding than it probably wasn't a foul. The same
holds true for defensive holding on pass receivers. Did the hold impede the receiver from running his pass route? Did the
quarterback even look to this receiver before throwing to the other side of the field? If there is no impact on the play, then there
is, no foul for holding.

[Bullaholic]

IMO, it comes down to this--the definiton of holding is whatever AN official at A game says it is according to HIS understanding of the rules. Everything else is just conjecture on whether he was right or wrong and, therefore, moot in the end.

[pirate4state]

Holding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84YF5Mi3HsA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-VffItdNAU

Not Holding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3NQMCegxC0
From a teaching document on officiating:

Holding is probably the most difficult penalty for officials to master. We've all heard coaches and fans say “You could call holding
on every play!” Very little if any truth lies in that statement. Holding is subjective to the degree and effect on the play. It also
changes from the level of competition. What is holding in lower level games may or may not be holding at the high school,
college, or pro level. What if we called holding on every play until the players quit holding? The players couldn't play, the coaches
couldn't coach, and the fans would leave. It would be you, the official, as the focal point, and that would lead to a very long
afternoon or evening and hardly resemble the game of football. When making a judgment on holding try using these
philosophies: Call any major take down that will embarrass you or your crew if it were not called. Even if it is not a take down, call
holding at the point of attack. Did the blocker gain an unfair advantage from the hold? Did the defender have his jersey
stretched or have to reach for the ball carrier with one arm? Was he taken in a direction by the hold that he didn't want to go in
the first place? Did the defender give up on his pursuit? These are all factors to help make your decision. If you decide to call
holding and throw the flag, be able to describe in a few words the nature of the foul. Know if it was a take down, a hook and
restrict, a jersey stretch, a twist and turn. If you can't put it into a category of holding than it probably wasn't a foul. The same
holds true for defensive holding on pass receivers. Did the hold impede the receiver from running his pass route? Did the
quarterback even look to this receiver before throwing to the other side of the field? If there is no impact on the play, then there
is, no foul for holding.

So, the 3rd link you've titled "not holding", yet the player was penalized for holding? :confused:

I still believe there IS some form of holding (as described above) on every play, but I also know that we would end up with 5+ hour games if you called every single occurrence. What I can't stand is seeing the 2nd example happen right in front of the official and no flag being thrown. That is absolutely ridiculous and we see it at every level. Oh well.

[TexMike]

[QUOTE=pirate4state;1648633]So, the 3rd link you've titled "not holding", yet the player was penalized for holding? :confused:

QUOTE]

I know , right? That NEVER happens. ;-) Sometime when you are bored, look at this site: http://www.romgilbert.us/video11.htm He has weekly pages, each page with 5 - 10 clips of plays the previous week in college and Texas HS football. You will get to see all kinds of "interesting" stuff ;-)

[pirate4state]

[QUOTE=pirate4state;1648633]So, the 3rd link you've titled "not holding", yet the player was penalized for holding? :confused:

QUOTE]

I know , right? That NEVER happens. ;-) Sometime when you are bored, look at this site: http://www.romgilbert.us/video11.htm He has weekly pages, each page with 5 - 10 clips of plays the previous week in college and Texas HS football. You will get to see all kinds of "interesting" stuff ;-)

So explain to me why, in YOUR opinion, it is NOT holding?

Is it cause those officials haven't been officiating for more than 3 years?!?!?! :eek: :o LOL ;)

[TexMike]

It is NOT holding but IS a personal foul as it was using the arm to strike the opponent's head or neck area.

[pirate4state]

It is NOT holding but IS a personal foul as it was using the arm to strike the opponent's head or neck area.

Thanks for clearing that up.