people who complain about teachers salaries

[roughneck_2008]

I thought this was a cool little paragraph that one of my friends posted on fb


Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! We can get that for minimum wage. That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That ...would be $19.50 a day (7:45 t......o 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours). Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET'S SEE.. That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year. Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here! There sure is!
The average teacher's salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!

[LionFan72]

I thought this was a cool little paragraph that one of my friends posted on fb


Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! We can get that for minimum wage. That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That ...would be $19.50 a day (7:45 t......o 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours). Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET'S SEE.. That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year. Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here! There sure is!
The average teacher's salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!
Sorry, but I would not want their job at $100 an hour, god bless those who do!

[jason]

teachers know they pay is crappy before they get into junior and senior year of college...don't like it, get a degree is something else...

[jason]

I thought this was a cool little paragraph that one of my friends posted on fb


Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! We can get that for minimum wage. That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That ...would be $19.50 a day (7:45 t......o 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours). Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET'S SEE.. That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year. Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here! There sure is!
The average teacher's salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!

how much do tax payers pay in property taxes that is contributed to the payroll account for these teachers? should citizens who don't have kids be exempt from school taxes?

[Farmersfan]

I thought this was a cool little paragraph that one of my friends posted on fb


Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! We can get that for minimum wage. That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That ...would be $19.50 a day (7:45 t......o 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours). Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET'S SEE.. That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year. Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here! There sure is!
The average teacher's salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!


DEAL! 280,000 a year for every teacher. So now let's have them pay for the building and supplies they use in this "Baby sitting" venture. Then subtract for all the support people that make their job possible like janitors, lunch room ladies, sectetaries and everyone else. Now bussing and overall transportation. Retirement! Paid Vacations! The list goes on and on and on and on! Once everything is paid for that enables a teacher to have 30 kids to "babysit" the teacher would actually end up owing something................................ get it? The system is broke! Rather than asking for increasing teacher pay in a broke system where raising taxes is the only option why not ask for a better system where teachers could be paid better without breaking the bank?

[Txbroadcaster]

DEAL! 280,000 a year for every teacher. So now let's have them pay for the building and supplies they use in this "Baby sitting" venture. ?

you do realize most teacher pay for own supplies right?

[roughneck_2008]

im not complaining that teachers dont make enough. i know exactly what i am getting into and cant wait to graduate next semester.

and i know my mom has bought everything that she puts up in her classroom

and yes even if you dont have kids, you should pay the same taxes as everyone (i know not everyone pays the same, but more the same kind of tax). if you dont like it, move to another country...people know whats it going to be like when they live here all there life

[Farmersfan]

you do realize most teacher pay for own supplies right?


I realize that most teachers "CLAIM" to pay for their own supplies! The truth is they pay for a very small percentage of all the supplies needed in a school. I agree they should not pay for any of it and if things were as bad as we are lead to believe then I don't think teachers would be willing to pay for even a single pencil. Of course it's not about the money! It's about the job and the kids! Until it isn't about the joband kids anymore and becomes about the money!!!!!!!!
I repeat what I have written 1000 times: If the pay is bad, benefits suck, work conditions blow and they have to pay for their own supplies then kind of makes me wonder why 10K new teachers a year are coming out of college?

[Txbroadcaster]

I realize that most teachers "CLAIM" to pay for their own supplies! The truth is they pay for a very small percentage of all the supplies needed in a school. I agree they should not pay for any of it and if things were as bad as we are lead to believe then I don't think teachers would be willing to pay for even a single pencil. Of course it's not about the money! It's about the job and the kids! Until it isn't about the joband kids anymore and becomes about the money!!!!!!!!
I repeat what I have written 1000 times: If the pay is bad, benefits suck, work conditions blow and they have to pay for their own supplies then kind of makes me wonder why 10K new teachers a year are coming out of college?

your talking flat out BS..I was a teacher/coach for a year and my ex wife has been a teacher for 6 years now..they dont pay for some of supplies, they pay for 95% of supplies

[Black_Magic]

your talking flat out BS..I was a teacher/coach for a year and my ex wife has been a teacher for 6 years now..they dont pay for some of supplies, they pay for 95% of supplies Save your breath. There are folks out there who think anybody who works for the city, county, state, or schools should be paid rock bottom wages. The reason is that they are paid using TAX money.. These people think TAXES are a Sin and that we pay way too much . Its all about finding ways to CUT taxes EVERYWHERE. They dont realize or care about the results in the class or on the street. They dont realize that our schools in Texas as the most( or at the bottom) underfunded in the nation. They think roads and bridges and public buildings just get built.. They dont think about where the money comes from. they just dont want to pay taxes BUT want nice roads, schools, great teachers, and plenty of police on the streets to stop crime too!

[Macarthur]

you do realize most teacher pay for own supplies right?

All I know is that with 3 kids I paid over $200 for school supplies this year.

[JJWalker]

I want a REFUND!

Seriously.

[Farmersfan]

your talking flat out BS..I was a teacher/coach for a year and my ex wife has been a teacher for 6 years now..they dont pay for some of supplies, they pay for 95% of supplies


So your single year as a teacher/coach and your wife's 6 years represents what a million teachers nation wide always do??????

But you don't realize that I also think teachers should not have to pay for supplies. And guess what? THEY DON'T!!!!!!! Show me a single contract that a school requires that a teacher signs that says they must purchase their own supplies. The problem is created because the teachers CHOOSE TO PURCHASE THEIR OWN SUPPLIES! Refuse to do so and let the chips fall where they may! But don't chose to pay for the supplies and then complain about it and use it as justification to prove that they don't make enough money.............. I completely support teachers and would vote yes to pay them a lot more money for the jobs they do if we first fixed all the other money leaks in the system.

[Txbroadcaster]

So your single year as a teacher/coach and your wife's 6 years represents what a million teachers nation wide always do??????

But you don't realize that I also think teachers should not have to pay for supplies. And guess what? THEY DON'T!!!!!!! Show me a single contract that a school requires that a teacher signs that says they must purchase their own supplies. The problem is created because the teachers CHOOSE TO PURCHASE THEIR OWN SUPPLIES! Refuse to do so and let the chips fall where they may! But don't chose to pay for the supplies and then complain about it and use it as justification to prove that they don't make enough money.............. I completely support teachers and would vote yes to pay them a lot more money for the jobs they do if we first fixed all the other money leaks in the system.

yes ur right..teachers choose to pay for supplies because they want their students to be better..damn those teachers who want their students to be able to reach their ability by providing them with all the resources.

[coachc45]

I realize that most teachers "CLAIM" to pay for their own supplies! The truth is they pay for a very small percentage of all the supplies needed in a school. I agree they should not pay for any of it and if things were as bad as we are lead to believe then I don't think teachers would be willing to pay for even a single pencil. Of course it's not about the money! It's about the job and the kids! Until it isn't about the joband kids anymore and becomes about the money!!!!!!!!
I repeat what I have written 1000 times: If the pay is bad, benefits suck, work conditions blow and they have to pay for their own supplies then kind of makes me wonder why 10K new teachers a year are coming out of college?

I have been a teacher for 20 years now....And you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about (as usual)! It is simple, teachers are underpaid! We do the job because we love it. And the reason 10k are coming out each year to do it, to give back.

Like you say, the problem is the system is broken. It is broken because people like you worry more about having to pay higher taxes and less about making sure that our children are educated and have the skills to become productive members of our society. You complain that kids don't learn, you complain that crime is rampant, you complain and complain and complain. Well the only way to fix the problems is to fund the solution, but you sure as hell don't want that funding to come from you!

Just keep complaining and let us people who really do CARE do our job!

[Saggy Aggie]

starting to think the demise of 3adl has a lot to do with farmersfan. :thinking::doh::doh:

[Farmersfan]

Save your breath. There are folks out there who think anybody who works for the city, county, state, or schools should be paid rock bottom wages. The reason is that they are paid using TAX money.. These people think TAXES are a Sin and that we pay way too much . Its all about finding ways to CUT taxes EVERYWHERE. They dont realize or care about the results in the class or on the street. They dont realize that our schools in Texas as the most( or at the bottom) underfunded in the nation. They think roads and bridges and public buildings just get built.. They dont think about where the money comes from. they just dont want to pay taxes BUT want nice roads, schools, great teachers, and plenty of police on the streets to stop crime too!


I hope you aren't talking about me! I am a Government worker. My pay is completely paid by tax money. But I am also smart enough to know that raising taxes to offset stupidity in spending is moving this country in the wrong direction. I also understand that Government employees are providing a service that generates no profits or produces no tangible assets. I can also look at the FACTS and determine that throwing money at our current educational system would be wasteful to the extreme. There are studies that show the quality of education for our kids has not increased incrementally with the huge increase in the costs. That isn't necessarily the teacher's fault but it is also not something that a smart person simply throws more money at to try to fix.
I am affected by tea Party extremists all the time that think that I should not make a penny more than the lowest paid tax payer. Our county has a 8% unemployment rate right now so they think no county employee should get a single penny in raise until every person gets a job. They completely disregard the other 92% of the citizens that are working and actually doing pretty well as well as the 5% or 6% that wouldn't have a job even in the best of times because they are worthless or refuse to work. And when the economy was cruising at a all time high, home prices were at a all time high and private sector 401Ks and Pension plans were producing at an all time high, the County employees still received their measley 2% raises and their 7% return on their TCDRS retirement accounts. So don't tell me i don't understand! The difference between you and me is that I'm smart enough to understand the difference in what is Good for our future vs what is good for ME right now!

[Farmersfan]

yes ur right..teachers choose to pay for supplies because they want their students to be better..damn those teachers who want their students to be able to reach their ability by providing them with all the resources.



So let's fix the system so that the teachers won't have to pay for their own supplies! That's all I'm saying!

[Farmersfan]

starting to think the demise of 3adl has a lot to do with farmersfan. :thinking::doh::doh:



Or it could be simpleton posts like yours.........................

[pancho villa]

My wife, daughter, and I are teaches. We do it because it is a calling. I don't complain about how much I make however I don't want to hear some public educated numbnut talking about how teachers get paid vacations, make to much money, "I pay your salary with my taxes" Just tell a teacher thank you and keep your mouth shut!

[pancho villa]

I hope you aren't talking about me! I am a Government worker. My pay is completely paid by tax money. But I am also smart enough to know that raising taxes to offset stupidity in spending is moving this country in the wrong direction. I also understand that Government employees are providing a service that generates no profits or produces no tangible assets. I can also look at the FACTS and determine that throwing money at our current educational system would be wasteful to the extreme. There are studies that show the quality of education for our kids has not increased incrementally with the huge increase in the costs. That isn't necessarily the teacher's fault but it is also not something that a smart person simply throws more money at to try to fix.
I am affected by tea Party extremists all the time that think that I should not make a penny more than the lowest paid tax payer. Our county has a 8% unemployment rate right now so they think no county employee should get a single penny in raise until every person gets a job. They completely disregard the other 92% of the citizens that are working and actually doing pretty well as well as the 5% or 6% that wouldn't have a job even in the best of times because they are worthless or refuse to work. And when the economy was cruising at a all time high, home prices were at a all time high and private sector 401Ks and Pension plans were producing at an all time high, the County employees still received their measley 2% raises and their 7% return on their TCDRS retirement accounts. So don't tell me i don't understand! The difference between you and me is that I'm smart enough to understand the difference in what is Good for our future vs what is good for ME right now!

I guess the children of TEXAS are not "tangible assets"

[Black_Magic]

This is the fruit of electing those who are anti governemt and everything that government is involved with. This is clearly seen in the stuff in Ohio and wisconsin right now. they are dealing with govenors and state houses that are slashing education and police and public sector budgets left and right ..WHY? becasue the states are taking in less because of the depressed economy?? in part yes. BUT equaly because these same folks passed huge tax cuts for the wealthy that caused less taxes to be paid... the solution they came up with is to cut education spending and police ect instead of going back and RE Taxing those who got the cuts 3 years ago... There is a short fall BECAUSE of cuts in taxes on the wealthy.. In times like these you need to INCREASE spending for education . Education is the key to economic growth of the FUTURE... Farmers say " Never Eat your Seed Corn".. what we have been doing is Eating our Seed corn ( education funding ).

[pancho villa]

teachers know they pay is crappy before they get into junior and senior year of college...don't like it, get a degree is something else...

If everyone thought like you we would have no teachers or the salarys would go way up.

[panfan]

Supplies - I have 3 kids as well and pay for supplies. Guess what, my wife teaches and spends about 100 bucks at the the beginning of the school year on supplies as well for kids in her class room. Why? for all those lazy ass parents who don't bother to provide for their kids and to make up for the shortfall for those that do. It happens every year. Yeah - I get pissed every year that I spend money to outfit someone elses kid with the stuff I buy for mine.

If everyone had the attitude of - pays sucks, hrs suck, blah, blah, then I guess we would have no teachers, or any other type of blue collar jobs, and maybe even some type of white collar jobs. Your argument is lame. Some folks go into teaching because they believe they can provide something, make a difference, and oh yeah do it as profession where they SHOULD earn a fair wage.

The system is broke cause super intendents make 5:1 in terms of salaries to those who are actually doing the work. Society has said, my kid is not my problem, you (the school deal with it) - feed them, educate them, teach them right from wrong, and get them too and from school. Don't agree - go look at a Title 1 school. Throwing money at the problem is never the solution, but paying teachers is not throwing money at the problem. Instead, we have Government entities saying - lets test them till we can't test them no more. what a crock. It doesn't work. No child let behind = no child gets ahead. So now we replace TAKS with STAR. Again, a completely misguided attempt handed down from the Feds, to the States, and the schools have no option but to comply. Lets face it folks, not every kid is going to graduate HS - for those incapable, lets train them in some life skill that enables them. Remember auto shop, wood shop, drafting, etc. I know a lot of folks I went to school with that are successful today either through their own business or in a larger company because they developed one of those skills.

[Black_Magic]

Supplies - I have 3 kids as well and pay for supplies. Guess what, my wife teaches and spends about 100 bucks at the the beginning of the school year on supplies as well for kids in her class room. Why? for all those lazy ass parents who don't bother to provide for their kids and to make up for the shortfall for those that do. It happens every year. Yeah - I get pissed every year that I spend money to outfit someone elses kid with the stuff I buy for mine.

If everyone had the attitude of - pays sucks, hrs suck, blah, blah, then I guess we would have no teachers, or any other type of blue collar jobs, and maybe even some type of white collar jobs. Your argument is lame. Some folks go into teaching because they believe they can provide something, make a difference, and oh yeah do it as profession where they SHOULD earn a fair wage.

The system is broke cause super intendents make 5:1 in terms of salaries to those who are actually doing the work. Society has said, my kid is not my problem, you (the school deal with it) - feed them, educate them, teach them right from wrong, and get them too and from school. Don't agree - go look at a Title 1 school. Throwing money at the problem is never the solution, but paying teachers is not throwing money at the problem. Instead, we have Government entities saying - lets test them till we can't test them no more. what a crock. It doesn't work. No child let behind = no child gets ahead. So now we replace TAKS with STAR. Again, a completely misguided attempt handed down from the Feds, to the States, and the schools have no option but to comply. Lets face it folks, not every kid is going to graduate HS - for those incapable, lets train them in some life skill that enables them. Remember auto shop, wood shop, drafting, etc. I know a lot of folks I went to school with that are successful today either through their own business or in a larger company because they developed one of those skills. Thank you!! and I would like to say that part of the problems you spoke of is because the good old working class folks have a hard time making ends meet at home and buying 100 in school supplys is tough. with the good old blue collar jobs and many white collar jobs getting pay slashed and benifits slashed the budget is tighter than ever.. But looks like the folks at the Very top of the "food chain" are doing better than ever.. why not make them contribute more? after all they are the only ones with ANY growth in income over the last 20 years. let them fill in the holes if they dont want to pay the folks that work for them any more than they do....

[Macarthur]

I have been a teacher for 20 years now....And you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about (as usual)! It is simple, teachers are underpaid! We do the job because we love it. And the reason 10k are coming out each year to do it, to give back.

I'm not going to speak for Farmer, but I feel the need to address. I don't believe it is 'simple' as you suggest. I really don't think that teacher's pay is that low.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_50.htm



Like you say, the problem is the system is broken. It is broken because people like you worry more about having to pay higher taxes and less about making sure that our children are educated and have the skills to become productive members of our society. You complain that kids don't learn, you complain that crime is rampant, you complain and complain and complain. Well the only way to fix the problems is to fund the solution, but you sure as hell don't want that funding to come from you!

Just keep complaining and let us people who really do CARE do our job!

I think one of the things that us non-techers really dislike is the sanctimonious attitude. We all make choices in life. This was your choice. And as Farmer and others have said, throwing money at the issue is not the solution. I remember the 60 minutes story a while back about the school in manhattan that was paying teachers 6 figure salaries. They expected a lot from those teachers. The bottom line was that the students test scores were no better than the rest of the students in the city. Washington DC spends the highest per student of any school district in the nation (over $28,000 per pupil) and their students are generally poor in comparison to the rest of the nation. By comparison, one year's tuition at Harvard is about $36,000!

In current adjusted dollars, we are spending almost 5 times what we were in 1960. I think most would agree that our results are not 5 times.... ;)

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

The first step to fixing the system is for everyone to acknowledge that it's not a funding problem.

[GrTigers6]

The solution is not to throw more money at it, but to create more money for it by eliminating the outrageous spending that our state and country do everyday. As far as the difference in pay between teachers and superintendents,Have you thought about what they go thru every day. Now I know I am not speaking for all of them, but the super here is at every function nearly and if he isnt its because he is at a seminar or trying to save the district money that the state keeps trying to make. Even though this is no comparison at all, But as president of the booster club I get calls and complaints from people who want us to do things different or trying to sell us stuff or whatever. And its very trying for me even on the small scale that I have to deal with. You multiply that by what the super's deal with on a daily basis and I believe that there isnt enough pay for that job for me.
Now like I said before there are some super's that dont care and do exactly what the perception is of them.
So to sum it all up, lets stop the spending and pay what is needed and much deserved to the ones that mold our children into the next generation of leaders and Parents.

[Black_Magic]

Still way behind in education spending in compared to the rest of the industrialized nations.....:eek:

[panfan]

I'm not going to speak for Farmer, but I feel the need to address. I don't believe it is 'simple' as you suggest. I really don't think that teacher's pay is that low.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_50.htm




I think one of the things that us non-techers really dislike is the sanctimonious attitude. We all make choices in life. This was your choice. And as Farmer and others have said, throwing money at the issue is not the solution. I remember the 60 minutes story a while back about the school in manhattan that was paying teachers 6 figure salaries. They expected a lot from those teachers. The bottom line was that the students test scores were no better than the rest of the students in the city. Washington DC spends the highest per student of any school district in the nation (over $28,000 per pupil) and their students are generally poor in comparison to the rest of the nation. By comparison, one year's tuition at Harvard is about $36,000!

In current adjusted dollars, we are spending almost 5 times what we were in 1960. I think most would agree that our results are not 5 times.... ;)

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

The first step to fixing the system is for everyone to acknowledge that it's not a funding problem.

We are not in Boston or Washington DC - we are in Texas, where the beginning salary for mst teachers is about 35K. Got a masters degreee, tack on a whopping extra $500. For some reason, you equate throwing money at the problem to paying decent wages to educators. Are there some bad teachers? You betcha? Are there some really good ones? darn right. They need to be paid a reasonable wage to stick around. The problem is not in the teachers, it is in how the Feds are saying schools must teach. It is absolutely ridiculous what teachers are told they must do, including passing on students who are clearly failing.

[NTFan]

The system is broke. But not because teachers are overpaid, paid for vacations, etc. etc. etc. Teachers ONLY get paid for the days they work! People who aren't in education don't comprehend that. If you were paid for your job only for the days you show up, it would be the same thing. They don't get paid for Christmas break, Thanksgiving break, or summers. They only get paid for the days they work. Now, they choose to have that pay spread out over 12 months, but you can also choose to have your pay put into 10 paychecks, since that is all you are being paid for......most everyone chooses 12 paychecks so that they do not have to go all summer without receiving a check. Several years ago the state gave the teachers a "pay raise", but then added 5 more staff developement days to the year......lol. That would be like telling a guy who makes $20 and hour, "I'm giving you a raise. I'm going to pay you $100 more a week, but oh ya, you have to work 5 extra hours to get that raise." lol. Hey, I was all for the extra money and appeciative for it, but call it what it is.....not a raise.

Here is where the system is broke in my opinion:

1) Without getting too political on here, I will say this.......a certain group of people want to believe that ALL children are capable of passing standardized tests and attending college. This is the start of the downfall of public education. When these people compare public education in the United States to other countries, or even to US private schools, you have to keep this in mind. US PUBLIC SCHOOLS are forced to accept everyone and use everyone in the calculations. Foreign schools only allow kids with higher scores to attend college prep school. The other students attend vocational schools and learn trades. Private schools in the US pick and choose who they accept. Most are from parents who attended college, and most from upper middle class/upper class families. So, of course they appear to be doing a better job educating their kids. They are teaching the cream of the crop! This is why legislators continue to push for charter schools and more standardized testing. The put more stringent guidelines every two years on what it takes to meet EXEMPLARY status. THEY DO NOT WANT PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO HAVE SUCCESS! Why? Because it gives them ammunition to push for charter schools, private school funding, and so on and so on.......

2) Is there some waste in public schools? Sure. Do the leaders need to reassess their spending and figure out the best places to spend their money? Yes. Do supt.'s make too much money? I don't know......that's hard to say unless you have walked in their shoes and know what they do on a daily basis.

3) Teachers get into this profession because it is a calling. Most go through high school already knowing what they want to do for the rest of their life. I don't think we, as a group, whine about our pay. But we don't want someone who doesn't know nor understand what we do, telling us we make too much money and do a crappy job. Just tell us thanks, or ignore us......but don't question the nature of what we do without as much as a thanks. IF you are a govt employee who is not a teacher, you won't understand this.....why? Because you are given benefits that teachers aren't given like affordable health insurance and so on and so on......

4) The biggest problem with public education is probably this:

For as long as I've been in this business it always boils down to this argument: IS PUBLIC SCHOOLS THE RESPONSIBLITY OF THE STATE, OR THE LOCAL DISTRICTS? When it comes time to shell out money, the state usually says it is the local districts responsibility. Then they don't give the local districts state money. The state wants to control everything about the school(testing, teaching requirements, etc.) But when it comes down to it, they end up telling the local districts it is their responsiblity.

I remember several years ago the teachers were given a $3000 across the board raise from the legislators......yippeee, right? Except that the state voted to give the raise and then tell local districts they had to find the money for it.....no money would be given to them to fund these raises......lol.......that is a great point if you don't fully grasp the State vs. Local argument.

In closing, I love this job. I love being an educator. I love coming to work everyday and having an impact on young people's lives. Everyday is different, every child is different, and I wouldn't trade my job with anyone. I just want people to be knowledgeable about the things that happen in this profession.

[panfan]

Amen NTFAN - I'm not a teacher, but my wife is, and I heard much of this same rhethoric growing up from both my teacher parents with 30 plus years each under their belts. They witnessed the decline of education since their careers started in the late '40s, now fast forward to today, and what I hear from my wife. It is sad that what was once responsible for such greatness out of this nation, is now part of the problem, and not due to educators, but due to what the educators are forced to do by those who don't know squat about teaching.

[pancho villa]

The system is broke. But not because teachers are overpaid, paid for vacations, etc. etc. etc. Teachers ONLY get paid for the days they work! People who aren't in education don't comprehend that. If you were paid for your job only for the days you show up, it would be the same thing. They don't get paid for Christmas break, Thanksgiving break, or summers. They only get paid for the days they work. Now, they choose to have that pay spread out over 12 months, but you can also choose to have your pay put into 10 paychecks, since that is all you are being paid for......most everyone chooses 12 paychecks so that they do not have to go all summer without receiving a check. Several years ago the state gave the teachers a "pay raise", but then added 5 more staff developement days to the year......lol. That would be like telling a guy who makes $20 and hour, "I'm giving you a raise. I'm going to pay you $100 more a week, but oh ya, you have to work 5 extra hours to get that raise." lol. Hey, I was all for the extra money and appeciative for it, but call it what it is.....not a raise.

Here is where the system is broke in my opinion:

1) Without getting too political on here, I will say this.......a certain group of people want to believe that ALL children are capable of passing standardized tests and attending college. This is the start of the downfall of public education. When these people compare public education in the United States to other countries, or even to US private schools, you have to keep this in mind. US PUBLIC SCHOOLS are forced to accept everyone and use everyone in the calculations. Foreign schools only allow kids with higher scores to attend college prep school. The other students attend vocational schools and learn trades. Private schools in the US pick and choose who they accept. Most are from parents who attended college, and most from upper middle class/upper class families. So, of course they appear to be doing a better job educating their kids. They are teaching the cream of the crop! This is why legislators continue to push for charter schools and more standardized testing. The put more stringent guidelines every two years on what it takes to meet EXEMPLARY status. THEY DO NOT WANT PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO HAVE SUCCESS! Why? Because it gives them ammunition to push for charter schools, private school funding, and so on and so on.......

2) Is there some waste in public schools? Sure. Do the leaders need to reassess their spending and figure out the best places to spend their money? Yes. Do supt.'s make too much money? I don't know......that's hard to say unless you have walked in their shoes and know what they do on a daily basis.

3) Teachers get into this profession because it is a calling. Most go through high school already knowing what they want to do for the rest of their life. I don't think we, as a group, whine about our pay. But we don't want someone who doesn't know nor understand what we do, telling us we make too much money and do a crappy job. Just tell us thanks, or ignore us......but don't question the nature of what we do without as much as a thanks. IF you are a govt employee who is not a teacher, you won't understand this.....why? Because you are given benefits that teachers aren't given like affordable health insurance and so on and so on......

4) The biggest problem with public education is probably this:

For as long as I've been in this business it always boils down to this argument: IS PUBLIC SCHOOLS THE RESPONSIBLITY OF THE STATE, OR THE LOCAL DISTRICTS? When it comes time to shell out money, the state usually says it is the local districts responsibility. Then they don't give the local districts state money. The state wants to control everything about the school(testing, teaching requirements, etc.) But when it comes down to it, they end up telling the local districts it is their responsiblity.

I remember several years ago the teachers were given a $3000 across the board raise from the legislators......yippeee, right? Except that the state voted to give the raise and then tell local districts they had to find the money for it.....no money would be given to them to fund these raises......lol.......that is a great point if you don't fully grasp the State vs. Local argument.

In closing, I love this job. I love being an educator. I love coming to work everyday and having an impact on young people's lives. Everyday is different, every child is different, and I wouldn't trade my job with anyone. I just want people to be knowledgeable about the things that happen in this profession.

Awsome

[SintonFan]

My wife, daughter, and I are teaches. We do it because it is a calling. I don't complain about how much I make however I don't want to hear some public educated numbnut talking about how teachers get paid vacations, make to much money, "I pay your salary with my taxes" Just tell a teacher thank you and keep your mouth shut!

Do you see the irony in this? lol

[panfan]

Do you see the irony in this? lol

I think most of us are public educated numbnuts, some less numb and some more nuts than others.:2thumbsup

[coachc45]

I'm not going to speak for Farmer, but I feel the need to address. I don't believe it is 'simple' as you suggest. I really don't think that teacher's pay is that low.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_50.htm




I think one of the things that us non-techers really dislike is the sanctimonious attitude. We all make choices in life. This was your choice. And as Farmer and others have said, throwing money at the issue is not the solution. I remember the 60 minutes story a while back about the school in manhattan that was paying teachers 6 figure salaries. They expected a lot from those teachers. The bottom line was that the students test scores were no better than the rest of the students in the city. Washington DC spends the highest per student of any school district in the nation (over $28,000 per pupil) and their students are generally poor in comparison to the rest of the nation. By comparison, one year's tuition at Harvard is about $36,000!

In current adjusted dollars, we are spending almost 5 times what we were in 1960. I think most would agree that our results are not 5 times.... ;)

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

The first step to fixing the system is for everyone to acknowledge that it's not a funding problem.


It really is simple.... Teachers are underpaid. We provide a service that is vital to our nation and we get paid less than what most blue collar workers make. Did I make the choice...You betcha, and I continue to do what I am "Called" to do even for the salary I make....but still don't make it right.


I will agree with your point to an extent. I never said that funding was the problem, I said that you have to "fund the solution". Big difference.

We are continuing to fund a broken system, and the reason it is broken is that the people making the decisions are not educators nor have most of them been in the public school system. I am not about to tell a farmer how to farm or a doctor how to heal, but I have to sit back and watch a bunch of politicians tell people how to teach. Doesn't make sense.

The one thing alot of people forget when griping about how much a teacher makes....we pay the same damn taxes they do! So quit telling me how your my boss, because I am technically "self-employed" using your stupid justification! lol

[SintonFan]

I think most of us are public educated numbnuts, some less numb and some more nuts than others.:2thumbsup

Yes but Pancho is a teacher saying this.:confused:

[coachc45]

Do you see the irony in this? lol

You can give a NUMBNUT a Harvard Education.....he's still a NUMBNUT!

His point was don't bite the hand that fed ya.

[panfan]

Yes but Pancho is a teacher saying this.:confused:

He's testing us to see if anyone would pick up on this clever word play. You get an A+. Once a teacher always a teacher.

[Macarthur]

It really is simple.... Teachers are underpaid. We provide a service that is vital to our nation and we get paid less than what most blue collar workers make. Did I make the choice...You betcha, and I continue to do what I am "Called" to do even for the salary I make....but still don't make it right.


But if you look at the statistics, teachers are not underpaid. Those numbers are from the top 66 MSA's in the nation. Not just NY & LA. The numbers simply so not support your position.

You're taking the position that teachers are simply underpaid. That's a subjective statement - what does that mean? Compared to what?


I will agree with your point to an extent. I never said that funding was the problem, I said that you have to "fund the solution". Big difference.

We are continuing to fund a broken system, and the reason it is broken is that the people making the decisions are not educators nor have most of them been in the public school system. I am not about to tell a farmer how to farm or a doctor how to heal, but I have to sit back and watch a bunch of politicians tell people how to teach. Doesn't make sense.

The one thing alot of people forget when griping about how much a teacher makes....we pay the same damn taxes they do! So quit telling me how your my boss, because I am technically "self-employed" using your stupid justification! lol

We both agree that the system is not working. And I agree with you that teacher pay and funding can be discussed in different ways. The system isn't working nearly as well as it should and I agree that these standardized tests are a big part of the problem.

[SintonFan]

He's testing us to see if anyone would pick up on this clever word play. You get an A+. Once a teacher always a teacher.

That's an optimistic view on it.

The fact is, I'm in the middle of this debate but lean toward
Farmersfan's and Macarthur's view on this.

It very much looks like Pancho was "virtually slapping" the face of one who disagrees with him. :(

[coachc45]

But if you look at the statistics, teachers are not underpaid. Those numbers are from the top 66 MSA's in the nation. Not just NY & LA. The numbers simply so not support your position.

You're taking the position that teachers are simply underpaid. That's a subjective statement - what does that mean? Compared to what?

It is subjective, and in Texas we are underpaid. I tend to take the view that the most important job in America is to educate our younger citizens so that they can become functioning members of a Democratic society. If it is the Most important, than how can $50,000 a year be even close to adequate?

[Black_Magic]

But if you look at the statistics, teachers are not underpaid. Those numbers are from the top 66 MSA's in the nation. Not just NY & LA. The numbers simply so not support your position.

You're taking the position that teachers are simply underpaid. That's a subjective statement - what does that mean? Compared to what?

As compared to profesions that require a BS or BA degreee with other certification.. Heck folks who work in the oil field with no degree at all make more than teachers do. in comparison with other jobs that require 4+ years of school , teachers are some of the lowest paid .

[Macarthur]

It is subjective, and in Texas we are underpaid. I tend to take the view that the most important job in America is to educate our younger citizens so that they can become functioning members of a Democratic society. If it is the Most important, than how can $50,000 a year be even close to adequate?

I agree that it's important too, but teachers initial salaries are better than police or firemen. Are they more important? Probably until your house is on fire. Our Capitalistic system is not perfect, but it's better than any other system out there. There are always going to be perceived inequities. I don't have a problem with teachers being paid more, what I have a problem with is the statement that 'teachers are underpaid' because that is subjective and means nothing unless compared against something. Again, referencing the orginal link, teachers are compensated pretty well when broken down into a per hour rate.

[Tx Challenge]

I can not believe some of the responses here. No time to spar with everyone that I disagree with. We all have our thoughts.. Personally I want to THANK all the teachers for what they do. If you are a member on this board that is a teacher, or in college with the intentions of teaching, I applaud you! Yes, you are underpaid.

[Macarthur]

As compared to profesions that require a BS or BA degreee with other certification..

But that's not really true either. What matters is the context and making fair comparisons. If you look at a college graduate with a degree in History, a teacher will make significantly more money than that History degree that goes and works for a library or something. You can't compare nursing degrees or engineering degrees with teaching degrees because it's not apples to apples.



Heck folks who work in the oil field with no degree at all make more than teachers do. in comparison with other jobs that require 4+ years of school , teachers are some of the lowest paid .

Again, not apples to apples. Those guys work in a very physically demanding job that has a high incidence of injury. The reason they are paid like they are is the risk involved.

[Black_Magic]

I agree that it's important too, but teachers initial salaries are better than police or firemen. Are they more important? No they are not more important. but Policemen and firefighters dont have to go to school for 4-5 years to go to work either. they dont even have to go to college.

[Black_Magic]

But that's not really true either. What matters is the context and making fair comparisons. If you look at a college graduate with a degree in History, a teacher will make significantly more money than that History degree that goes and works for a library or something.

. The guy who gets a history degree and then goes to work cant teach. he must get a teachers certification. thats more education and time than just a history degree.

[panfan]

That's an optimistic view on it.

The fact is, I'm in the middle of this debate but lean toward
Farmersfan's and Macarthur's view on this.

It very much looks like Pancho was "virtually slapping" the face of one who disagrees with him. :(

My response was a joke, but he may very well be virtually slapping faces of those that disagree with him. I couldn't disagree more with Mac and Farm and I guess you. Higher salaries will attrack a whole different level of person to the education profession. Not to say that those currently in it are bad, but there are some that simply skated through got a degree and are now teachers. There are others, however, that are highly motivated, exceptionally smart, and gifted who are underpaid, and we need more like them in the system. Look around at the professions you are all in, do they pay mediocraty the same as excellence? Is it rewarded the same? I doubt it.

As far as statistics go, I can make statistics lie and say what I want depending upon how I integrate my data, present, the "facts", and spill out numbers that are as meaningless as the means generated. You ask compared to what? Put in a salary calculator "teacher" , then scientist, then engineer, then whatever other four year degree profession you want. I bet for almost every state, you find teacher at the bottom of the pay scale. So the comparison is dollar for dollar for education recieved, are teachers on a pay scale that is similar to those in professions that have the same level of education. Answer in most cases is no.

[SintonFan]

Higher salaries will attrack a whole different level of person to the education profession. Not to say that those currently in it are bad, but there are some that simply skated through got a degree and are now teachers. There are others, however, that are highly motivated, exceptionally smart, and gifted who are underpaid, and we need more like them in the system. Look around at the professions you are all in, do they pay mediocraty the same as excellence? Is it rewarded the same? I doubt it.

As far as statistics go, I can make statistics lie and say what I want depending upon how I integrate my data, present, the "facts", and spill out numbers that are as meaningless as the means generated. You ask compared to what? Put in a salary calculator "teacher" , then scientist, then engineer, then whatever other four year degree profession you want. I bet for almost every state, you find teacher at the bottom of the pay scale. So the comparison is dollar for dollar for education recieved, are teachers on a pay scale that is similar to those in professions that have the same level of education. Answer in most cases is no.

For those "gifted and underpaid", would merit based pay help?

[Macarthur]

No they are not more important.

I would suggest that a good number of people would disagree with you on this.


but Policemen and firefighters dont have to go to school for 4-5 years to go to work either. they dont even have to go to college.

But some do and you have to admit their training is pretty intense and specialized.


The guy who gets a history degree and then goes to work cant teach. he must get a teachers certification. thats more education and time than just a history degree.

Yes, and you will make a better salary to compensate for that additional work. What's your point?

[Macarthur]

As far as statistics go, I can make statistics lie and say what I want depending upon how I integrate my data, present, the "facts", and spill out numbers that are as meaningless as the means generated. You ask compared to what? Put in a salary calculator "teacher" , then scientist, then engineer, then whatever other four year degree profession you want. I bet for almost every state, you find teacher at the bottom of the pay scale. So the comparison is dollar for dollar for education recieved, are teachers on a pay scale that is similar to those in professions that have the same level of education. Answer in most cases is no.

But you can't compare the two. Just because an engineer and a teacher have a BS, does not mean they are equal.

[SintonFan]

But you can't compare the two. Just because an engineer and a teacher have a BS, does not mean they are equal.

I thought that engineers start at five years of education?

[Macarthur]

I thought that engineers start at five years of education?

I think it depends on the discipline.

[panfan]

For those "gifted and underpaid", would merit based pay help?

sure would, just as culling the dead weight would. Like any profession, there are dead beats, and shining stars. I don't know however, if ths current system is practical or viable to use and determine "merit" due to requirements imposed for passing students who have no business passing.

[SintonFan]

I think it depends on the discipline.

Yes, but I believe it starts at five years and goes up from there depending on the discipline. My daughter is looking into engineering now. She's 14. :cool:

[garciap77]

That's an optimistic view on it.

The fact is, I'm in the middle of this debate but lean toward
Farmersfan's and Macarthur's view on this.

It very much looks like Pancho was "virtually slapping" the face of one who disagrees with him. :(

Good job Pancho!:clap::clap::clap:

[DeuceDeuce]

Problems with the Finances in Texas Education System can be broken down in simple math....

There are over 500,000 non-US citizens being given a free public education in Texas everyday. Of these 500,000, over 75% qualify for free or reduced breakfast and lunch on a daily basis. That means we spend @ 5,000 dollars a year on each of the 500,000 students that are not citizens of the country paying their way. That is 2,500,000,000 a year. You could have tax cuts and give teachers raises with that!!!!



When the US is responsible for educating not only our own citizens, but anyone that lives within our borders, we are going to FAIL.

[garciap77]

I agree that it's important too, but teachers initial salaries are better than police or firemen. Are they more important? Probably until your house is on fire. Our Capitalistic system is not perfect, but it's better than any other system out there. There are always going to be perceived inequities. I don't have a problem with teachers being paid more, what I have a problem with is the statement that 'teachers are underpaid' because that is subjective and means nothing unless compared against something. Again, referencing the orginal link, teachers are compensated pretty well when broken down into a per hour rate.

Not in Abilene!!!


http://www.abilenepolice.org/documents/Abilene_Police_Lateral_Applic_Pkt.pdf

http://www.abilenefiredepartment.org/FFReqsJan09.pdf

[SintonFan]

sure would, just as culling the dead weight would. Like any profession, there are dead beats, and shining stars. I don't know however, if ths current system is practical or viable to use and determine "merit" due to requirements imposed for passing students who have no business passing.

Looks like something we can agree on.

BUT, would teacher's unions hinder the ability to determine merit? I understand you have to protect teachers' interests, but it seems like much of what the unions protect tend to favor "dead beats".
Merit should be determined by an independent group that has no "dog in the fight". I see this as being a very very tough fight by the unions, in it's own interest, it would want to control what "Merit" is defined as.

[panfan]

I think it depends on the discipline.

I work with hydrologic, geotechnical, environmental, civil, and chemical engineers. Nephew just got his aerospace engineering degree - 4 years.These are four year courses of study. If it takes someone five, its cause they were partying or working during college. Want to earn more, then you get your EIT, then on to state licensure. Want more, go on to masters.

Point is, education for engineering is a 4 year program. Education for teaching is a 4 year program. pay difference = huge.
Imagine a newly educated engineering graduate going into HS math and science engineering to teach for a even just a few years - the level of competency conveyed to students, and the expectations (high) would be amazing. Why would he/she do that though for 35K when they can go make 50K in consutling.

[Macarthur]

Problems with the Finances in Texas Education System can be broken down in simple math....

There are over 500,000 non-US citizens being given a free public education in Texas everyday. Of these 500,000, over 75% qualify for free or reduced breakfast and lunch on a daily basis. That means we spend @ 5,000 dollars a year on each of the 500,000 students that are not citizens of the country paying their way. That is 2,500,000,000 a year. You could have tax cuts and give teachers raises with that!!!!



When the US is responsible for educating not only our own citizens, but anyone that lives within our borders, we are going to FAIL.

Here's the thing - I don't doubt that this is part of the problem. However, let's not jump to the conclusion that just because someone is not here legally they are not taxpayers. I have know many folks that technically were here illegally, but did pay taxes.

I think one important issue is to look at how the tax burden is disproportionately shifted to property taxes. See, you have a ton of folks that live in multi-family dwelings (nothing against apartments), and those folks pay no property taxes. Granted, the complex pays property taxes but that doesn't come close to what the revenue would be for each of those families if they were paying property taxes on a single family home. So what you have are these concentrated areas of multi-family dwellings and not enough property tax revenue to support the population.

It's a complex issue with many facets, but I know this is one of the major issues.

[SintonFan]

Good job Pancho!:clap::clap::clap:

Your right. Civility isn't Panchos strongest suit...;)

[panfan]

I don't have any warn and fuzzy feeling for unions. I think at one time n our history, they were good and meaningful ways for workers who were getting screwed to get their just deserves. Today, the labor laws in place, tend to take that place, and the unions tend to create more problems than they solve.
Overhaul the education system, pay scales, etc, and teachers won't need unions.

[panfan]

But you can't compare the two. Just because an engineer and a teacher have a BS, does not mean they are equal.
Nobody said they were equal. Said they educated. Different disciplines due justify different pay scales. However, does a four year educated teacher with a math concentration who took just as much calculus, trig, differential equations, etc, justify a disproportionaly lower pay because they chose not to go into engineering?

[garciap77]

I don't have any warn and fuzzy feeling for unions. I think at one time n our history, they were good and meaningful ways for workers who were getting screwed to get their just deserves. Today, the labor laws in place, tend to take that place, and the unions tend to create more problems than they solve.
Overhaul the education system, pay scales, etc, and teachers won't need unions.

Yeah! They have Rick Perry!;)

[Macarthur]

I work with hydrologic, geotechnical, environmental, civil, and chemical engineers. Nephew just got his aerospace engineering degree - 4 years.These are four year courses of study. If it takes someone five, its cause they were partying or working during college. Want to earn more, then you get your EIT, then on to state licensure. Want more, go on to masters.

Point is, education for engineering is a 4 year program. Education for teaching is a 4 year program. pay difference = huge.
Imagine a newly educated engineering graduate going into HS math and science engineering to teach for a even just a few years - the level of competency conveyed to students, and the expectations (high) would be amazing. Why would he/she do that though for 35K when they can go make 50K in consutling.

Bingo! They're not the same. You know better than most of us that the course work is not the same. I think everyone is hung up on the 4 year thing and I think that's the wrong way to look at it. A History degree is not the same as a chemical engineering degree.

[Macarthur]

Nobody said they were equal. Said they educated. Different disciplines due justify different pay scales.

You answered your next question yourself.


However, does a four year educated teacher with a math concentration who took just as much calculus, trig, differential equations, etc, justify a disproportionaly lower pay because they chose not to go into engineering?

[Macarthur]

I don't have any warn and fuzzy feeling for unions. I think at one time n our history, they were good and meaningful ways for workers who were getting screwed to get their just deserves. Today, the labor laws in place, tend to take that place, and the unions tend to create more problems than they solve.
Overhaul the education system, pay scales, etc, and teachers won't need unions.

agree 100%

[panfan]

You answered your next question yourself.

Pay is disproportionate and addresses the original question or point you were trying to make - Compared to what? scale?
Remember that?

Pay should be different, not log scale difference. More importantly, improve the pay scale and attract those young talented folks to the profession, not scare them away.

[DeuceDeuce]

I understand they pay taxes, but lets take a look at what they pay.

To qualify for free/reduced lunch you have to make under $21,500. For numbers sake lets say they make $20,000 a year. They are not home owners so they pay NO property tax. The have no social security so they pay NO Income tax. They spend their whole salary every year so the pay @ 8% of their 20,000in sales tax, which is about $1600. If that same person sends two kids to school the state and local government will spend @ 12,000 dollars on those 2 kids, and that doesn't include free breakfast and lunch.

Now, take a US citizen with 2 kids who owns a home in Texas. The Citizen makes @ $50,000 a year. Of that $50,000 he pays @ 21% in Federal and State Taxes or $10,500. Lets say he owns a modest $100,000 house and pays and additional $2,000 a year in property taxes. And finally lets say he pays 8% on the remaining $37,500, which comes to around $3000.

Now lets look at totals....

Example 1 Example 2
Income Tax - 0 Income Tax - $10,500
Property Tax - 0 Property Tax - $2000
Sales Tax - $1600 Sales Tax - $3000
Total = $1600 Total = $15,500

They both have two kids getting the same $6000 a year education.

I am not trying to bash immigrants, just pointing out this is a HUGE issue facing education in Texas.

[Macarthur]

Pay is disproportionate and addresses the original question or point you were trying to make - Compared to what? scale?
Remember that?

Pay should be different, not log scale difference. More importantly, improve the pay scale and attract those young talented folks to the profession, not scare them away.

I get your point, but you're assumption is that talented people are not drawn that direction. If we had some major shortage of qualified teachers, I get that, but we don't. In fact, in many areas we have a surplus of teachers. I know my SIL had to take a temporary sub position because she couldn't find anything this school year.

[coachc45]

Mac--

"Bingo! They're not the same. You know better than most of us that the course work is not the same. I think everyone is hung up on the 4 year thing and I think that's the wrong way to look at it. A History degree is not the same as a chemical engineering degree."


I disagree. I think a history degree requires the same mental focus and challenge as an engineering degree. Just in Different areas of study.

You might have had problems in math as a kid so engineering is "hard", those kids in engineering get the same "education" as the History guys.

[Macarthur]

I understand they pay taxes, but lets take a look at what they pay.

To qualify for free/reduced lunch you have to make under $21,500. For numbers sake lets say they make $20,000 a year. They are not home owners so they pay NO property tax.

That's not necessarily true, but even so, there are many folks that are american citizens that pay no property taxes so I don't see this and an illegal alien issue.


The have no social security so they pay NO Income tax.

That is blatantly false. Even if they have a fake SS number, the taxes are still being paid on that.


They spend their whole salary every year so the pay @ 8% of their 20,000in sales tax, which is about $1600. If that same person sends two kids to school the state and local government will spend @ 12,000 dollars on those 2 kids, and that doesn't include free breakfast and lunch.

But how is this just an illegal alien issue? Do you have statistics that show that a disproportionate number of 'illegal' families use the school lunch program?


Now, take a US citizen with 2 kids who owns a home in Texas. The Citizen makes @ $50,000 a year. Of that $50,000 he pays @ 21% in Federal and State Taxes or $10,500. Lets say he owns a modest $100,000 house and pays and additional $2,000 a year in property taxes. And finally lets say he pays 8% on the remaining $37,500, which comes to around $3000.

Now lets look at totals....

Example 1 Example 2
Income Tax - 0 Income Tax - $10,500
Property Tax - 0 Property Tax - $2000
Sales Tax - $1600 Sales Tax - $3000
Total = $1600 Total = $15,500

They both have two kids getting the same $6000 a year education.

I am not trying to bash immigrants, just pointing out this is a HUGE issue facing education in Texas.

As I've shown, that's a flawed analysis because your assumption that because someone is illegal, no taxes are paid, is flat out wrong. And you're totally ignoring the US citizens that pay no property taxes. I'm not saying that you're scenario doesn't have some merit; I'm just saying that I think it's flawed to make this into an immigration issue.

[SintonFan]

I don't have any warn and fuzzy feeling for unions. I think at one time n our history, they were good and meaningful ways for workers who were getting screwed to get their just deserves. Today, the labor laws in place, tend to take that place, and the unions tend to create more problems than they solve.
Overhaul the education system, pay scales, etc, and teachers won't need unions.

We seem to agree quite a bit. :cool:

[Macarthur]

I disagree. I think a history degree requires the same mental focus and challenge as an engineering degree. Just in Different areas of study.

You might have had problems in math as a kid so engineering is "hard", those kids in engineering get the same "education" as the History guys.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The last part not the first. I do think getting any degree requires focus and hard work. I just think some are more difficult than others.

[pancho villa]

We'll have to agree to disagree. The last part not the first. I do think getting any degree requires focus and hard work. I just think some are more difficult than others.

How come all the degrees cost the same? It cost me the same for my daughter to get her BS in education as my sons engineering degree.

[panfan]

I get your point, but you're assumption is that talented people are not drawn that direction. If we had some major shortage of qualified teachers, I get that, but we don't. In fact, in many areas we have a surplus of teachers. I know my SIL had to take a temporary sub position because she couldn't find anything this school year.

There is a major surplus this year because our illustrious Perry said he would not tap the Rainy day fund to support the shortfalls in education. There were mass layoff in districts. Junior folks got cut first. So you would expect there to be qualified folks looking for jobs. My wife's math depeartment in 6th grade went from 4 teachers to 2, she now teaches 30 plus students instead of 22. Plus they moved the SPED kids into her class. In most years, when education is not being stripped to the bare bones, there is no surplus, in fact there is a demand for teachers.

[SintonFan]

But how is this just an illegal alien issue? Do you have statistics that show that a disproportionate number of 'illegal' families use the school lunch program?



Not gonna make this an illegal issue, but it will be hard to find a study revealing the percentage of those here "illegally" who use the free lunch program.

[coachc45]

We'll have to agree to disagree. The last part not the first. I do think getting any degree requires focus and hard work. I just think some are more difficult than others.

Why because you say it is so? Prove to me that Engineering is harder..... I know tons of kids who can sit in math classes and pop A's all day but say their hardest class was History! Why? Because of aptitude. some people learn math easier than others, some learn history, some science. We tend to think because it pays more or is labled as "harder" it is. Not to the engineer. Which is why he chose that profession.

You keep saying its subjective this and subjective that. But your big argument is as subjective as all the rest. You have NO PROOF i.e. it subjective.

[panfan]

Not gonna make this an illegal issue, but it will be hard to find a study revealing the percentage of those here "illegally" who use the free lunch program.
Don't have to be here illegally to use the free lunch program, in fact, there are a number of free loaders who use it and abuse it. According to my wife, those ESL kids that may be migrant farm worker kids, tend to not be the free loaders. Then there are those who are truly needy that use it (and I'm all for that). Free loaders however, chap my hide.

[icu812]

Teacher pay will increase when our educational system embraces free market principles, individual choice, and competition. This will also be the same time student performance improves. Great teachers should be in high demand and paid accordingly.

I know of one high school that is over 95% minority, 95% of the students are on free lunch, 85% of the students are ESL and they rank 4th in their state in acedemic performance. Oh, and they are a charter school that receive LESS funding than public schools in the area. They pay their teachers according to their students performance. They have a waiting list for students and teachers. Another similar school in DC graduated 99% of their students while the public school next door graduated 49%. Students were chosen for the school via a lottery system. Upset parents and students were crying leaving the school when they were not selected. All the while the teacher union was protesting in the streets outside the charter school.

[coach]

i guess police officers and firemen are overpaid as well.

[DeuceDeuce]

MacArthur....

Not to be rude, but is obvious you are not in education, and I dont see how you can judge or have merit in your arguments when you are on the outside looking in.

I don't know how much it costs to build a bridge, so don't act like you know what it costs to educate a child.

[Farmersfan]

We are not in Boston or Washington DC - we are in Texas, where the beginning salary for mst teachers is about 35K. Got a masters degreee, tack on a whopping extra $500. For some reason, you equate throwing money at the problem to paying decent wages to educators. Are there some bad teachers? You betcha? Are there some really good ones? darn right. They need to be paid a reasonable wage to stick around. The problem is not in the teachers, it is in how the Feds are saying schools must teach. It is absolutely ridiculous what teachers are told they must do, including passing on students who are clearly failing.



And wouldn't this apply to every single profession in the USA?

[SintonFan]

MacArthur....

Not to be rude, but is obvious you are not in education, and I dont see how you can judge or have merit in your arguments when you are on the outside looking in.

I don't know how much it costs to build a bridge, so don't act like you know what it costs to educate a child.


Teacher pay will increase when our educational system embraces free market principles, individual choice, and competition. This will also be the same time student performance improves. Great teachers should be in high demand and paid accordingly.

I know of one high school that is over 95% minority, 95% of the students are on free lunch, 85% of the students are ESL and they rank 4th in their state in acedemic performance. Oh, and they are a charter school that receive LESS funding than public schools in the area. They pay their teachers according to their students performance. They have a waiting list for students and teachers. Another similar school in DC graduated 99% of their students while the public school next door graduated 49%. Students were chosen for the school via a lottery system. Upset parents and students were crying leaving the school when they were not selected. All the while the teacher union was protesting in the streets outside the charter school.

Interesting...

[Farmersfan]

The system is broke. But not because teachers are overpaid, paid for vacations, etc. etc. etc. Teachers ONLY get paid for the days they work! People who aren't in education don't comprehend that. If you were paid for your job only for the days you show up, it would be the same thing. They don't get paid for Christmas break, Thanksgiving break, or summers. They only get paid for the days they work. Now, they choose to have that pay spread out over 12 months, but you can also choose to have your pay put into 10 paychecks, since that is all you are being paid for......most everyone chooses 12 paychecks so that they do not have to go all summer without receiving a check. Several years ago the state gave the teachers a "pay raise", but then added 5 more staff developement days to the year......lol. That would be like telling a guy who makes $20 and hour, "I'm giving you a raise. I'm going to pay you $100 more a week, but oh ya, you have to work 5 extra hours to get that raise." lol. Hey, I was all for the extra money and appeciative for it, but call it what it is.....not a raise.



I don't think a single person has stated that teachers are overpaid. But I do think a lot of people disagree with the idea that they are underpaid. So to argue your point that teachers are underpaid you present evidence that the 50K a year the average teacher earns is ACTUALLY ONLY PAY FOR 10 MONTHS OF WORK!!!!!! Nice job.

[NTFan]

I don't think a single person has stated that teachers are overpaid. But I do think a lot of people disagree with the idea that they are underpaid. So to argue your point that teachers are underpaid you present evidence that the 50K a year the average teacher earns is ACTUALLY ONLY PAY FOR 10 MONTHS OF WORK!!!!!! Nice job.

...and where did you read where I said teachers were underpaid? My argument was when people spew ignorance about teachers getting their summers off, holidays off, and spring break off with PAY, then they are wrong. They know not what they are talking about.......:blahblah:

[Farmersfan]

Not in Abilene!!!


http://www.abilenepolice.org/documents/Abilene_Police_Lateral_Applic_Pkt.pdf

http://www.abilenefiredepartment.org/FFReqsJan09.pdf


Great links! but what do teachers get paid in Abilene for 10 months of work?

[NTFan]

Teacher pay will increase when our educational system embraces free market principles, individual choice, and competition. This will also be the same time student performance improves. Great teachers should be in high demand and paid accordingly.

I know of one high school that is over 95% minority, 95% of the students are on free lunch, 85% of the students are ESL and they rank 4th in their state in acedemic performance. Oh, and they are a charter school that receive LESS funding than public schools in the area. They pay their teachers according to their students performance. They have a waiting list for students and teachers. Another similar school in DC graduated 99% of their students while the public school next door graduated 49%. Students were chosen for the school via a lottery system. Upset parents and students were crying leaving the school when they were not selected. All the while the teacher union was protesting in the streets outside the charter school.

No way......I saw the piece on TV too......those aren't random lottery drawings. You have to qualify to be in the drawings. There is a waiting list at those schools? REALLY There are waiting lists at private schools too! There are waiting lists at Charter Schools too!!!!

Ever see a waiting list for a public school? Nope

Why? Because public schools are required to take ANYONE THAT SHOWS UP!!!

I can give you an example of a Texas Charter School that has a waiting list and uses the Lottery system for admittance. But before they can be allowed into the school or put on the waiting list, the school administrators(using this term loosely) call the student's old school and make sure the kid wasn't a discipline problem, had too many absences, etc. etc. If they do, they are not allowed in, or not allowed to be put on the waiting list.

That whole, "WE HAVE THE SAME STUDENTS THAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAVE" is far from the truth. I know this for fact. Don't be fooled by their mantra. Also, check student to teacher ratio's in those schools.........

[Farmersfan]

Nobody said they were equal. Said they educated. Different disciplines due justify different pay scales. However, does a four year educated teacher with a math concentration who took just as much calculus, trig, differential equations, etc, justify a disproportionaly lower pay because they chose not to go into engineering?



Yes! Because the lower pay was what was offered and accepted by one of the 10K new teachers coming out of college every year! Supply and demand at it's best!

[panfan]

I don't think a single person has stated that teachers are overpaid. But I do think a lot of people disagree with the idea that they are underpaid. So to argue your point that teachers are underpaid you present evidence that the 50K a year the average teacher earns is ACTUALLY ONLY PAY FOR 10 MONTHS OF WORK!!!!!! Nice job.

In the old days, a teacher could choose a 9 month pay or 12 month pay. My dad would choose 9 month pay and work the summers at other jobs to support the family. Now I think they mandate a 12 month pay, and just receive less per paycheck. No one is getting paid for not working. Its just allocated differently. The base pay is the same.

[panfan]

Yes! Because the lower pay was what was offered and accepted by one of the 10K new teachers coming out of college every year! Supply and demand at it's best!

You obviously don't have any kids. If you did, you would be singing a different tune.

[coachc45]

Teacher pay will increase when our educational system embraces free market principles, individual choice, and competition. This will also be the same time student performance improves. Great teachers should be in high demand and paid accordingly.

I know of one high school that is over 95% minority, 95% of the students are on free lunch, 85% of the students are ESL and they rank 4th in their state in acedemic performance. Oh, and they are a charter school that receive LESS funding than public schools in the area. They pay their teachers according to their students performance. They have a waiting list for students and teachers. Another similar school in DC graduated 99% of their students while the public school next door graduated 49%. Students were chosen for the school via a lottery system. Upset parents and students were crying leaving the school when they were not selected. All the while the teacher union was protesting in the streets outside the charter school.

And do you ask yourself why they excel? Maybe because they handpick the kids the educate? They are not indicative of success, they are indicative of selective education. I am all for it...but our government is not. Until the USA decides to go to a system in which they do not try to educate all kids in the same way, we as a country will lag in educational data. Therefore it will be perceived that we are not educating as well.

[Manso/V8]

Now, take a US citizen with 2 kids who owns a home in Texas. The Citizen makes @ $50,000 a year. Of that $50,000 he pays @ 21% in Federal and State Taxes or $10,500. Lets say he owns a modest $100,000 house and pays and additional $2,000 a year in property taxes. And finally lets say he pays 8% on the remaining $37,500, which comes to around $3000.

Now lets look at totals....

Example 1 Example 2
Income Tax - 0 Income Tax - $10,500
Property Tax - 0 Property Tax - $2000
Sales Tax - $1600 Sales Tax - $3000
Total = $1600 Total = $15,500

They both have two kids getting the same $6000 a year education.
I am not trying to bash immigrants, just pointing out this is a HUGE issue facing education in Texas.

I understand your point, but someone making $50,000/year with two kids is going to pay a lot less than $10,500 in federal income tax.
A single parent with two kids filing as head of househould would qualify for a standard deduction (without itemizing) of $8,500 and 3 personal exemptions at $3,700 each, so they would pay income tax on $30,400 and that would be $3950 or so. Plus, they would get $1,000 child tax credit for each child that was 16 and under, so there income tax burden could be as low as $1950. If they were married and filed jointly (without itemizing) with the same $50,000 household income, their federal income tax would be about $3,100, and could be as low as $1,100 with the child tax credit.
Unless they were a teacher or other profession that did not participate in social security they would have to pay FICA, or about $2800 on the $50K.
I don't know what percentage that the federal government picks up of the $6,000 per year cost per kid, but I would imagine the bulk of it comes from state and local taxes. The concept is that community has an obligation to educate the children and benefits from educated children. The biggest chunk of our property tax goes to local school district. So, even folks that don't have kids, or their kids are already out of school are picking up the majority of the school tab.

[panfan]

And do you ask yourself why they excel? Maybe because they handpick the kids the educate? They are not indicative of success, they are indicative of selective education. I am all for it...but our government is not. Until the USA decides to go to a system in which they do not try to educate all kids in the same way, we as a country will lag in educational data. Therefore it will be perceived that we are not educating as well.

Like I said before: No Child Left behind = no child gets ahead

[Dr Death]

In times of teacher shortages, there was one in the late 90's and early 2000's, instead of increasing pay and recruiting teachers, the Perry recommendation was to relax certificate requirements to increase the pool of available teachers, not increase pay. Isn't that what happens in supply and demand?????? Now that the number of teaching jobs has been reduced, I haven't gotten a step increase in 3 years. Why doesnt that law of supply and demand work for us?

[Farmersfan]

In the old days, a teacher could choose a 9 month pay or 12 month pay. My dad would choose 9 month pay and work the summers at other jobs to support the family. Now I think they mandate a 12 month pay, and just receive less per paycheck. No one is getting paid for not working. Its just allocated differently. The base pay is the same.


Oh see what you are saying! I also get 4 weeks vacation a year in my job but it's not actually paid vacation even though I get a check every week. I actually only EARN money 11 months but have them split my yearly earnings into 12 months worth of paydays. So I get 12 months of pay but it is actually only for 11 months of work!!!! It's certainly NOT paid vacation!!!! :crazy:

FYI: in case you couldn't tell, that was sarcasm!

[icu812]

And do you ask yourself why they excel? Maybe because they handpick the kids the educate? They are not indicative of success, they are indicative of selective education. I am all for it...but our government is not. Until the USA decides to go to a system in which they do not try to educate all kids in the same way, we as a country will lag in educational data. Therefore it will be perceived that we are not educating as well.

In the case of the DC school the kids were selected via random draw (lottery) from the failing school which graduated 49% of their kids. Same kids but...........different teachers. Principle fired teachers who were not educating students regardless of how long they had been in the classroom and hired teachers who were doing a good job. Which is why the union bosses and teachers who want no accountability were protesting.

I agree with you on selective education of students being one of the reasons we lag behind other countries. We should bring back trade schools as an option. Higher education isn't for everybody.

[panfan]

FYI: in case you couldn't tell, that was sarcasm![/QUOTE]

Guess I'm not edumicated enough, and need mo skoolin. Need me one ofthem there overpriced teachars to spell it out fo me.

[coachc45]

Read more into it...it wasn't completely random. The kids that were in the random lottery had to Qualify for that lottery.

[Farmersfan]

You obviously don't have any kids. If you did, you would be singing a different tune.



I have already raised 2 boys. One is in college right now and the other is serving in the Army. And your logic about people not agreeing with you because they don't have kids is retarded. I paid my fair share of tax and still pay it. I would pay a lot more property taxes if I thought it would improve education. It won't! It has been proven 1000 times it won't! Stop giving everyone the sanctimonious holier than thou crap and telling us all how great you are because of the profession you chose or the job you do and maybe people would actually side with some of your ideas. I'm sick and tired of hearing people that took that path label it "A Calling" like it is some kind of devine gift or guidance to a higher purpose. The FACT is that people go into teaching because it is a good gig. Deal with it! But I have said many, many times that I feel teachers are underpaid. but I would not vote to increase their pay any more than i would vote to increase my OWN pay at my job. I seek to fix the system and no amount of self promotion from a special interest group is going to change that. See, the thing about VALUE is that it only applies to what I think it is worth. You can tell me all day long how much you are worth but in the end you are only worth what the payer thinks you are worth. That's all I have said on the subject. As long as thousands of new teachers are coming out of college every year and are willing to take 35K a year then that is what the pay will be. GET IT? I never said it was right or justified. And you can cry all you want about how it is unfair and unjust but so could 99% of the workers in this great country of ours. So stop asking the Government to FIX YOU and get up and fix yourself. If you don't want to work for 35K a year then don't . Use that education in another field that pays better.......................................



PS: My oldest son who is in college just changed his major from computer programming and simulation to a degree in Physics. He now wants to teach high school physics................. I support him 100%

[Bull Butter]

And do you ask yourself why they excel? Maybe because they handpick the kids the educate? They are not indicative of success, they are indicative of selective education. I am all for it...but our government is not. Until the USA decides to go to a system in which they do not try to educate all kids in the same way, we as a country will lag in educational data. Therefore it will be perceived that we are not educating as well.

The IDEA schools in the Rio Grande Valley like to brag about their high academic achievement and great test scores. Their premise is a simple one......Pass the TAKS or get booted out. Other public schools don't have that option

[panfan]

I have already raised 2 boys. One is in college right now and the other is serving in the Army. And your logic about people not agreeing with you because they don't have kids is retarded. I paid my fair share of tax and still pay it. I would pay a lot more property taxes if I thought it would improve education. It won't! It has been proven 1000 times it won't! Stop giving everyone the sanctimonious holier than thou crap and telling us all how great you are because of the profession you chose or the job you do and maybe people would actually side with some of your ideas. I'm sick and tired of hearing people that took that path label it "A Calling" like it is some kind of devine gift or guidance to a higher purpose. The FACT is that people go into teaching because it is a good gig. Deal with it! But I have said many, many times that I feel teachers are underpaid. but I would not vote to increase their pay any more than i would vote to increase my OWN pay at my job. I seek to fix the system and no amount of self promotion from a special interest group is going to change that. See, the thing about VALUE is that it only applies to what I think it is worth. You can tell me all day long how much you are worth but in the end you are only worth what the payer thinks you are worth. That's all I have said on the subject. As long as thousands of new teachers are coming out of college every year and are willing to take 35K a year then that is what the pay will be. GET IT? I never said it was right or justified. And you can cry all you want about how it is unfair and unjust but so could 99% of the workers in this great country of ours. So stop asking the Government to FIX YOU and get up and fix yourself. If you don't want to work for 35K a year then don't . Use that education in another field that pays better.......................................

I am not a teacher. I have no holier than thou crap to spew. People go into the government becaase it is a good gig, people go into teaching - to teach young folks - sure as hell isnt' for the pay, but they do it anyway. Glad to hear you have kids. Did they go to public school? Were the fortunate enough to have some high quality teachers? Several years back - probably did, and then the pay those teachers got probably was more in line with the economy. Aint's so now. I never said anthing about raising taxes, I said the system doesn't work the way it is currently implemented and part of the problem is lack of quality teachers. No one is asking the government to fix it, I think many on here are asking the government to get their stinking hands out of education and let the teachers teach. I get paid plenty - thank you very much and I did use that education to go into a field I enjoy. It look teachers at the secondary level, graduate, and post graduate level to help me get there. :wave:

[panfan]

I have already raised 2 boys. One is in college right now and the other is serving in the Army. And your logic about people not agreeing with you because they don't have kids is retarded. I paid my fair share of tax and still pay it. I would pay a lot more property taxes if I thought it would improve education. It won't! It has been proven 1000 times it won't! Stop giving everyone the sanctimonious holier than thou crap and telling us all how great you are because of the profession you chose or the job you do and maybe people would actually side with some of your ideas. I'm sick and tired of hearing people that took that path label it "A Calling" like it is some kind of devine gift or guidance to a higher purpose. The FACT is that people go into teaching because it is a good gig. Deal with it! But I have said many, many times that I feel teachers are underpaid. but I would not vote to increase their pay any more than i would vote to increase my OWN pay at my job. I seek to fix the system and no amount of self promotion from a special interest group is going to change that. See, the thing about VALUE is that it only applies to what I think it is worth. You can tell me all day long how much you are worth but in the end you are only worth what the payer thinks you are worth. That's all I have said on the subject. As long as thousands of new teachers are coming out of college every year and are willing to take 35K a year then that is what the pay will be. GET IT? I never said it was right or justified. And you can cry all you want about how it is unfair and unjust but so could 99% of the workers in this great country of ours. So stop asking the Government to FIX YOU and get up and fix yourself. If you don't want to work for 35K a year then don't . Use that education in another field that pays better.......................................



PS: My oldest son who is in college just changed his major from computer programming and simulation to a degree in Physics. He now wants to teach high school physics................. I support him 100%

WOW - that is great! I hope when I retire- to go teach science in high school.

[icu812]

Read more into it...it wasn't completely random. The kids that were in the random lottery had to Qualify for that lottery.

According to the School Reform Act (Sec 38-1802.06), enrollment in public charter schools is open to all students who are residents of the District of Columbia, and if space is available, to non-resident students who pay tuition at the rate established by the State Education Agency. A public charter school may not limit enrollment based on student's race, color, religion, national origin, language spoken, intellectual or athletic ability.

To ensure that children in the District of Columbia receive fair and equitable opportunities to enroll in and attend public charter schools, the District Of Columbia Public Charter School Board (PCSB) has created enrollment and lottery guidelines.

[MGAR]

Crazy that this is THE topic on a sports board.

[garciap77]

Crazy that this is THE topic on a sports board.

Yeah! Removed the Reg 1 Snyder vs Wylie (goto game of the week) and put this thread in it's place. It's will not be much of a game as Wylie will hang 30+ before half time!:D I feel for the kitty cats!:D

[JJWalker]

Which type of public school teacher gets paid the most in Texas? The head football coach?

[Txbroadcaster]

Which type of public school teacher gets paid the most in Texas? The head football coach?

not if he is only a HC..if he is an AD then maybe, but an AD is NOT a teacher, they are admin...like a principle

[JJWalker]

not if he is only a HC..if he is an AD then maybe, but an AD is NOT a teacher, they are admin...like a principle

So which type of public school teacher would be the highest paid? Or is it basically all the rest get paid the same?

[panfan]

So which type of public school teacher would be the highest paid? Or is it basically all the rest get paid the same?

The pay scales I've seen, available on any ISD website do not distinguish between "types" of teachers, only years. They also have an adjustment to the pay scale for any graduate level work. So yeah, they all basically get paid the same based on years experience. Teachers out there, correct me if I'm wrong.

[44INAROW]

In the old days, a teacher could choose a 9 month pay or 12 month pay. My dad would choose 9 month pay and work the summers at other jobs to support the family. Now I think they mandate a 12 month pay, and just receive less per paycheck. No one is getting paid for not working. Its just allocated differently. The base pay is the same.

I know exactly what you mean - both my parents taught - 30+ years.. both had double majors.. Daddy drove a school bus in the morning and after school, refereed (sp) ball games on Thurs and Friday and then worked summers at Brown and Root at the Seadrift plant and even taught at Bee County College a few summers. That was his "mad money" he'd say!! My mother taught 'college bound English IV' (certainly not PC to say that anymore) - during the month of May, she'd do the total UNTHINKABLE things.. such as instructions on how to write a good resume', fill out a good application, write thank you notes, and she'd even throw in a lesson on manners or two.. she'd NEVER get away with that now.. might interfere with TEST TAKING 101.. They both knew what they were getting into when they went into teaching. Just the way it was. That was back in the good ole days, when teachers actually got to TEACH - instead of TEST..

oh and just in case.
I WAS HERE :)

[Macarthur]

Why because you say it is so? Prove to me that Engineering is harder..... I know tons of kids who can sit in math classes and pop A's all day but say their hardest class was History! Why? Because of aptitude. some people learn math easier than others, some learn history, some science. We tend to think because it pays more or is labled as "harder" it is. Not to the engineer. Which is why he chose that profession.

You keep saying its subjective this and subjective that. But your big argument is as subjective as all the rest. You have NO PROOF i.e. it subjective.

Actually, I'm the only one on here that has posted some objective numbers. I'm not in education and I'm trying to not be emotional and have some sort of objective view on the issue. You are the one that has been repeatedly making subjective statements about this and that.

[Macarthur]

MacArthur....

Not to be rude, but is obvious you are not in education, and I dont see how you can judge or have merit in your arguments when you are on the outside looking in.

I don't know how much it costs to build a bridge, so don't act like you know what it costs to educate a child.

No, I'm not a teacher but I can read. You don't have to be a teacher to have an educated opinion on the issue. Your statment was extremely ignorant.

[panfan]

Honestely, this had been a great debate. Lots of views and opinions, not all in agreement. A unifying theme seems to be far as I can tell, we all agree the system is broke. Now what do we do to fix it? What is the ideal overhaul of the system to insure a quality education, fair pay for educators, elimination of wasteful spending, and of course making sure we can still have FOOTBALL!

[SintonFan]

Honestely, this had been a great debate. Lots of views and opinions, not all in agreement. A unifying theme seems to be far as I can tell, we all agree the system is broke. Now what do we do to fix it? What is the ideal overhaul of the system to insure a quality education, fair pay for educators, elimination of wasteful spending, and of course making sure we can still have FOOTBALL!

I'm not sure if it is totally broke. There are kids who excel under the current system. You have to want IT to be good at IT. My daughter is light years ahead of me at Math when I was her age, and I was decent at it. Then again she is a self-motivated mover and shaker while I was a goofy 14 yr old barely getting my voice back. :D

and das futbol be important...

[garciap77]

Which type of public school teacher gets paid the most in Texas? The head football coach?

I heard Black Magic is pulling over $100K per year! But, I'm not sure if he is the head coach!:D

[SintonFan]

I heard Black Magic is pulling over $100K per year! But, I'm not sure if he is the head coach!:D

And Wylie has over 1100 students. :D

[coachc45]

Actually, I'm the only one on here that has posted some objective numbers. I'm not in education and I'm trying to not be emotional and have some sort of objective view on the issue. You are the one that has been repeatedly making subjective statements about this and that.

I agree that my arguments are subjective...but so was yours.

You have posted objective numbers, the only problem is that you are posting teachers across the US and not teachers in Texas. Texas is one of the lowest paying States and also one of the Lowest performing. Maybe there is a theme there?

Anyway, you can argue all you want about Teacher Salary, but you wouldn't do the job for what we get paid. And that my friend speaks volumes!

[garciap77]

Honestely, this had been a great debate. Lots of views and opinions, not all in agreement. A unifying theme seems to be far as I can tell, we all agree the system is broke. Now what do we do to fix it? What is the ideal overhaul of the system to insure a quality education, fair pay for educators, elimination of wasteful spending, and of course making sure we can still have FOOTBALL!

It's simple! Get rid of Ricky Perry! Let the teachers.......teach! Get rid of all testing (they are all about making money) mandated by Politics!

[garciap77]

And Wylie has over 1100 students. :D


No they don't! ccmom and I recounted them (errors were made on the first count 1645) and we only counted 826. Plus, we have a special clause with the UIL were we can adjust as needed!:D

[SintonFan_inAustin]

I thought this was a cool little paragraph that one of my friends posted on fb


Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! We can get that for minimum wage. That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That ...would be $19.50 a day (7:45 t......o 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours). Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET'S SEE.. That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year. Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here! There sure is!
The average teacher's salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_Qc_nmSUGQ

[garciap77]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_Qc_nmSUGQ

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd185/garciap77/Smilies/baby-laugh.gif

Or you can try "Prepay Legal and Day Care Academy" for one low price!
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/a0353eb544/jones-cheap-ass-prepaid-legal-and-day-care-academy


:D

[LionFan72]

I can say, I do appreciate all the hard work that teachers as whole accomplish. However, I can say that over the last 30-40 years, goals and expectations of teachers has changed. Call it what you want, but it is accountability!

I worked for a Fortune 500 company with loads of engineers, with 5 working directly for me! Goals were set, monitered, evaluated, and raises based on performance. If I had a engineer with a 70 percent performance rating, they would have been terminated. Not saying that teacher performance should be based on all students passing, but the expectations of the majority passing is not unwarranted, this seems to have tipped the balance of scale.

Can't compare the independent business models with teaching, but when we invest billions of dollars in business or education, there has to be a performance goal met, or there are consequences.

[SWMustang]

As compared to profesions that require a BS or BA degreee with other certification.. Heck folks who work in the oil field with no degree at all make more than teachers do. in comparison with other jobs that require 4+ years of school , teachers are some of the lowest paid .

Does that burn you that oilfield workers make more than teachers? You could go be one if you wanted. Sad that we don't place any value on hard working people that didn't go to college.

[coachc45]

I can say, I do appreciate all the hard work that teachers as whole accomplish. However, I can say that over the last 30-40 years, goals and expectations of teachers has changed. Call it what you want, but it is accountability!

I worked for a Fortune 500 company with loads of engineers, with 5 working directly for me! Goals were set, monitered, evaluated, and raises based on performance. If I had a engineer with a 70 percent performance rating, they would have been terminated. Not saying that teacher performance should be based on all students passing, but the expectations of the majority passing is not unwarranted, this seems to have tipped the balance of scale.

Can't compare the independent business models with teaching, but when we invest billions of dollars in business or education, there has to be a performance goal met, or there are consequences.

I hear ya....but when the performance goal does not take into account the limitations of the students in these classrooms then it is skewed. Times are different in education and in child raising.... and your business model doesn't work. Unless you are handing these engineers faulty material to build with, then its not the same.

Plus if a teacher has less than majority passing, in 90% of districts out there....they are terminated also!

[coachc45]

I'm gonna rant one last time and then I'm done....but I get so sick and tired of hearing people gripe about how teachers are paid just right, how we are subpar, how the education system in America is broken, how bad teachers are to blame for poor results.....well lets put the blame where it really belongs. There was a time in America when Parents raised their own kids, where parents held those kids accountable for their own actions, where they didn't come running up to the school house raising cane because their kid failed a class that he only turned in 20% of the work...or how he shouldn't be disciplined because he called called the teacher a bitch to her face.... there was a time when a kid brought home a failing grade he got his ASS whipped and told to get it up. There was a time when if the kid got in trouble at school he was in twice as much trouble when he got home! Hell, there was even a time when teachers didn't have to worry about being stabbed or shot while only trying to do their job....and when we didn't have to go into the restrooms and the cafeteria during the day to make sure that no kids were in there having sex or doing drugs....and we didn't have to take the blame from the parents when they get caught doing it!

Education began failing about the same time that parents became more worried about status and who to blame for their shortcomings. You want an accountability rating, well we live in a time where teachers are more educated, more tested, and more stringently evaluated than ever before....and the quality of education IS going down! How you ask? Because while you do have to have a degree and Certificate to teach, you don't have to have one to make a baby....and more and more unqualified people are having babies and there is no accountability on the most important job on earth...Being a Parent!

So you wanna fix the system, then look in the mirror and ask yourself....do I hold my kids accountable? If you do then make damn sure your kids do the same with theirs. Until we do...education is screwed!

[Manso/V8]

Does that burn you that oilfield workers make more than teachers? You could go be one if you wanted. Sad that we don't place any value on hard working people that didn't go to college.

Oil field workers make high wages because there is a lot of profit in the oil field. They have specific skills and experience that are needed, and it is often difficult and dangerours work. Those same type of workers in a refinery make less, because there is not as much profit in refining oil.
Successful life insurance salespeople make a lot of money because the insurance busines is very profitable, and selling life insurance is something few people want to do, or can do successfully. School teachers add value to society but it can't be directly linked to economic value or profits.

[Manso/V8]

I'm gonna rant one last time and then I'm done....but I get so sick and tired of hearing people gripe about how teachers are paid just right, how we are subpar, how the education system in America is broken, how bad teachers are to blame for poor results.....well lets put the blame where it really belongs. There was a time in America when Parents raised their own kids, where parents held those kids accountable for their own actions, where they didn't come running up to the school house raising cane because their kid failed a class that he only turned in 20% of the work...or how he shouldn't be disciplined because he called called the teacher a bitch to her face.... there was a time when a kid brought home a failing grade he got his ASS whipped and told to get it up. There was a time when if the kid got in trouble at school he was in twice as much trouble when he got home! Hell, there was even a time when teachers didn't have to worry about being stabbed or shot while only trying to do their job....and when we didn't have to go into the restrooms and the cafeteria during the day to make sure that no kids were in there having sex or doing drugs....and we didn't have to take the blame from the parents when they get caught doing it!

Education began failing about the same time that parents became more worried about status and who to blame for their shortcomings. You want an accountability rating, well we live in a time where teachers are more educated, more tested, and more stringently evaluated than ever before....and the quality of education IS going down! How you ask? Because while you do have to have a degree and Certificate to teach, you don't have to have one to make a baby....and more and more unqualified people are having babies and there is no accountability on the most important job on earth...Being a Parent!

So you wanna fix the system, then look in the mirror and ask yourself....do I hold my kids accountable? If you do then make damn sure your kids do the same with theirs. Until we do...education is screwed!

I agree with you completely on this one. I am amazed at how much the attitudes have changed in the last 30-20-10 years, even the last 5 years!
Parents not teaching self-reliance, and helping their kids scam by the rules is a recipe for disaster.
Athletics seems to be one of the last bastions where kids are forced to sit up straight and act right.

[panfan]

I'm gonna rant one last time and then I'm done....but I get so sick and tired of hearing people gripe about how teachers are paid just right, how we are subpar, how the education system in America is broken, how bad teachers are to blame for poor results.....well lets put the blame where it really belongs. There was a time in America when Parents raised their own kids, where parents held those kids accountable for their own actions, where they didn't come running up to the school house raising cane because their kid failed a class that he only turned in 20% of the work...or how he shouldn't be disciplined because he called called the teacher a bitch to her face.... there was a time when a kid brought home a failing grade he got his ASS whipped and told to get it up. There was a time when if the kid got in trouble at school he was in twice as much trouble when he got home! Hell, there was even a time when teachers didn't have to worry about being stabbed or shot while only trying to do their job....and when we didn't have to go into the restrooms and the cafeteria during the day to make sure that no kids were in there having sex or doing drugs....and we didn't have to take the blame from the parents when they get caught doing it!

Education began failing about the same time that parents became more worried about status and who to blame for their shortcomings. You want an accountability rating, well we live in a time where teachers are more educated, more tested, and more stringently evaluated than ever before....and the quality of education IS going down! How you ask? Because while you do have to have a degree and Certificate to teach, you don't have to have one to make a baby....and more and more unqualified people are having babies and there is no accountability on the most important job on earth...Being a Parent!

So you wanna fix the system, then look in the mirror and ask yourself....do I hold my kids accountable? If you do then make damn sure your kids do the same with theirs. Until we do...education is screwed!

agree 100% - My wife came home yesterday terribly upset. She had been written up at school for removing from possession one of those I love boobies bracelets, after the kid was asked to either put it in his pocket or turn it inside out. Mama called to school to complain that my wife had infringed upon her childs rite to support breast cancer awareness. Complete BS. This 6th grader, dumber than a stump according to my wife, was using this a means to get under peoples skin. Parent was 100% culpable. I want to tell her to go hand in her resignation and tell the principal he has no balls and can piss off. She doesn't need the work that bad.
No accountability at home, and the admins are bending to parent pressure.

[Black_Magic]

Does that burn you that oilfield workers make more than teachers? You could go be one if you wanted. Sad that we don't place any value on hard working people that didn't go to college. NO! im glad that oil field workers make what they do.. They diserve more than they get paid!!:eek: So do Teachers, fire fighters, Police, and many other professions! Right now the people at the top are getting it all. But they work harder dont they....

[garciap77]

I'm gonna rant one last time and then I'm done....but I get so sick and tired of hearing people gripe about how teachers are paid just right, how we are subpar, how the education system in America is broken, how bad teachers are to blame for poor results.....well lets put the blame where it really belongs. There was a time in America when Parents raised their own kids, where parents held those kids accountable for their own actions, where they didn't come running up to the school house raising cane because their kid failed a class that he only turned in 20% of the work...or how he shouldn't be disciplined because he called called the teacher a bitch to her face.... there was a time when a kid brought home a failing grade he got his ASS whipped and told to get it up. There was a time when if the kid got in trouble at school he was in twice as much trouble when he got home! Hell, there was even a time when teachers didn't have to worry about being stabbed or shot while only trying to do their job....and when we didn't have to go into the restrooms and the cafeteria during the day to make sure that no kids were in there having sex or doing drugs....and we didn't have to take the blame from the parents when they get caught doing it!

Education began failing about the same time that parents became more worried about status and who to blame for their shortcomings. You want an accountability rating, well we live in a time where teachers are more educated, more tested, and more stringently evaluated than ever before....and the quality of education IS going down! How you ask? Because while you do have to have a degree and Certificate to teach, you don't have to have one to make a baby....and more and more unqualified people are having babies and there is no accountability on the most important job on earth...Being a Parent!

So you wanna fix the system, then look in the mirror and ask yourself....do I hold my kids accountable? If you do then make damn sure your kids do the same with theirs. Until we do...education is screwed!

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[pancho villa]

I'm gonna rant one last time and then I'm done....but I get so sick and tired of hearing people gripe about how teachers are paid just right, how we are subpar, how the education system in America is broken, how bad teachers are to blame for poor results.....well lets put the blame where it really belongs. There was a time in America when Parents raised their own kids, where parents held those kids accountable for their own actions, where they didn't come running up to the school house raising cane because their kid failed a class that he only turned in 20% of the work...or how he shouldn't be disciplined because he called called the teacher a bitch to her face.... there was a time when a kid brought home a failing grade he got his ASS whipped and told to get it up. There was a time when if the kid got in trouble at school he was in twice as much trouble when he got home! Hell, there was even a time when teachers didn't have to worry about being stabbed or shot while only trying to do their job....and when we didn't have to go into the restrooms and the cafeteria during the day to make sure that no kids were in there having sex or doing drugs....and we didn't have to take the blame from the parents when they get caught doing it!

Education began failing about the same time that parents became more worried about status and who to blame for their shortcomings. You want an accountability rating, well we live in a time where teachers are more educated, more tested, and more stringently evaluated than ever before....and the quality of education IS going down! How you ask? Because while you do have to have a degree and Certificate to teach, you don't have to have one to make a baby....and more and more unqualified people are having babies and there is no accountability on the most important job on earth...Being a Parent!

So you wanna fix the system, then look in the mirror and ask yourself....do I hold my kids accountable? If you do then make damn sure your kids do the same with theirs. Until we do...education is screwed!

That is so well said. You are relaying my sentiments exactly. I am just too lazy to type all that.

[pancho villa]

I'm not sure if it is totally broke. There are kids who excel under the current system. You have to want IT to be good at IT. My daughter is light years ahead of me at Math when I was her age, and I was decent at it. Then again she is a self-motivated mover and shaker while I was a goofy 14 yr old barely getting my voice back. :D

and das futbol be important...

You are right it is not totally broke, all the smart kids and all the mentally challenged kids are doing fine. It is all the average kids getting “Left behind” Thanks Rick Perry and our great legislators.

[garciap77]

That is so well said. You are relaying my sentiments exactly. I am just too lazy to type all that.

Teachers should be allowed to slap kids as needed!

[Bull Butter]

I'm gonna rant one last time and then I'm done....but I get so sick and tired of hearing people gripe about how teachers are paid just right, how we are subpar, how the education system in America is broken, how bad teachers are to blame for poor results.....well lets put the blame where it really belongs. There was a time in America when Parents raised their own kids, where parents held those kids accountable for their own actions, where they didn't come running up to the school house raising cane because their kid failed a class that he only turned in 20% of the work...or how he shouldn't be disciplined because he called called the teacher a bitch to her face.... there was a time when a kid brought home a failing grade he got his ASS whipped and told to get it up. There was a time when if the kid got in trouble at school he was in twice as much trouble when he got home! Hell, there was even a time when teachers didn't have to worry about being stabbed or shot while only trying to do their job....and when we didn't have to go into the restrooms and the cafeteria during the day to make sure that no kids were in there having sex or doing drugs....and we didn't have to take the blame from the parents when they get caught doing it!

Education began failing about the same time that parents became more worried about status and who to blame for their shortcomings. You want an accountability rating, well we live in a time where teachers are more educated, more tested, and more stringently evaluated than ever before....and the quality of education IS going down! How you ask? Because while you do have to have a degree and Certificate to teach, you don't have to have one to make a baby....and more and more unqualified people are having babies and there is no accountability on the most important job on earth...Being a Parent!

So you wanna fix the system, then look in the mirror and ask yourself....do I hold my kids accountable? If you do then make damn sure your kids do the same with theirs. Until we do...education is screwed!

You hit the nail on the head!!!! People always want to point fingers, when they should be blaming themselves!

[warhorsejoe]

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
You hit the nail on the head!!!! People always want to point fingers, when they should be blaming themselves!

[pancho villa]

We need to put in a few new rules in public schools.

1. whenever a kid fails a class the parent gets fined $100
2. a second failure $200 and go up $100 every time they fail a class.
3. Absent from school unexcused= $100 fine
4. Getting put in (In school supension) =$200 fine
5. alternitive school=$500 fine

I bet some of these no account parents will get off their butts then!

[LionFan72]

I'm gonna rant one last time and then I'm done....but I get so sick and tired of hearing people gripe about how teachers are paid just right, how we are subpar, how the education system in America is broken, how bad teachers are to blame for poor results.....well lets put the blame where it really belongs. There was a time in America when Parents raised their own kids, where parents held those kids accountable for their own actions, where they didn't come running up to the school house raising cane because their kid failed a class that he only turned in 20% of the work...or how he shouldn't be disciplined because he called called the teacher a bitch to her face.... there was a time when a kid brought home a failing grade he got his ASS whipped and told to get it up. There was a time when if the kid got in trouble at school he was in twice as much trouble when he got home! Hell, there was even a time when teachers didn't have to worry about being stabbed or shot while only trying to do their job....and when we didn't have to go into the restrooms and the cafeteria during the day to make sure that no kids were in there having sex or doing drugs....and we didn't have to take the blame from the parents when they get caught doing it!

Education began failing about the same time that parents became more worried about status and who to blame for their shortcomings. You want an accountability rating, well we live in a time where teachers are more educated, more tested, and more stringently evaluated than ever before....and the quality of education IS going down! How you ask? Because while you do have to have a degree and Certificate to teach, you don't have to have one to make a baby....and more and more unqualified people are having babies and there is no accountability on the most important job on earth...Being a Parent!

So you wanna fix the system, then look in the mirror and ask yourself....do I hold my kids accountable? If you do then make damn sure your kids do the same with theirs. Until we do...education is screwed!
Good post coach45, I agree with you 100%! The Texas education system as well as the National system is broken, too many career politicians trying to fix a problem they do not understand, because they were not a part of system.

The biggest issue I see is there are too many FAT cats at the top of the Administration. I think in the past is was called 'insulating' your position, but we do not have that luxury with the current economics. Too much money that should be paid to the teachers is being leached to the administrations. I think I received an adequate public education, did attend college, did not attain a degree, but made something of myself, regardless! I was able to retire at 55 self sufficient, and this was due to some very interested teachers with 30+ students in class.

The lack of respect shown to each other and teachers will be the downfall of America, period. Everyone seems to expect instant gratification on a personal basis. Sorry folks, you have to earn that gratification, through hard work. This is a different generation than what I knew growing up. I saw the change coming and attitude through the workforce and am very disturbed to see the decline in America with my own eyes. The issues is not teachers vs. the taxpayers, it is all about respect!

[pancho villa]

agree 100% - My wife came home yesterday terribly upset. She had been written up at school for removing from possession one of those I love boobies bracelets, after the kid was asked to either put it in his pocket or turn it inside out. Mama called to school to complain that my wife had infringed upon her childs rite to support breast cancer awareness. Complete BS. This 6th grader, dumber than a stump according to my wife, was using this a means to get under peoples skin. Parent was 100% culpable. I want to tell her to go hand in her resignation and tell the principal he has no balls and can piss off. She doesn't need the work that bad.
No accountability at home, and the admins are bending to parent pressure.

She should of told the Principal to eat a root!

[GrTigers6]

We need to put in a few new rules in public schools.

1. whenever a kid fails a class the parent gets fined $100
2. a second failure $200 and go up $100 every time they fail a class.
3. Absent from school unexcused= $100 fine
4. Getting put in (In school supension) =$200 fine
5. alternitive school=$500 fine

I bet some of these no account parents will get off their butts then!How is fining parents gonna help a kid pass. You can tell him to do the work, help him do the work, but if he fails to turn it in then you have accomplished nothing. Unless you plan on parents going to school for them. or I guess you could fine the students, that makes just as much sense. Another thing is what if they dont pay it? do you suspend the kid? thats probably what he wants anyway
Im all for helping them pass but there is a line you have to draw on who is responsible for there efforts or lack there of. I agree with the laws about truincy and fining parents who knowingly let there kids skip but dont agree with fining for failing. Sometimes the kid just doesnt get it. Sometimes it takes a different teacher to understand. too many variables

[MGAR]

Here's a point of view from one of my Facebookers..
================================================== ================================================== ======================

Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It's time we put thing in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! We can get that for minimum wage. That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or ...any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to........................... 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan--that equals 6 1/2 hours). Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET'S SEE.... That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries). What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year. Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here!

The average teacher's salary (nation-wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!! Make a teacher smile; re-post this to show appreciation for all educators.
================================================== ================================================== ===================

[pancho villa]

How is fining parents gonna help a kid pass. You can tell him to do the work, help him do the work, but if he fails to turn it in then you have accomplished nothing. Unless you plan on parents going to school for them. or I guess you could fine the students, that makes just as much sense. Another thing is what if they dont pay it? do you suspend the kid? thats probably what he wants anyway
Im all for helping them pass but there is a line you have to draw on who is responsible for there efforts or lack there of. I agree with the laws about truincy and fining parents who knowingly let there kids skip but dont agree with fining for failing. Sometimes the kid just doesnt get it. Sometimes it takes a different teacher to understand. too many variables

They would pass if the parents got hit in the pocketbook. They would help their kids study, make them do homework, get them extra help if needed. heaven forbid if the parents were held accountable for their kids.

[Farmersfan]

I'm gonna rant one last time and then I'm done....but I get so sick and tired of hearing people gripe about how teachers are paid just right, how we are subpar, how the education system in America is broken, how bad teachers are to blame for poor results.....well lets put the blame where it really belongs. There was a time in America when Parents raised their own kids, where parents held those kids accountable for their own actions, where they didn't come running up to the school house raising cane because their kid failed a class that he only turned in 20% of the work...or how he shouldn't be disciplined because he called called the teacher a bitch to her face.... there was a time when a kid brought home a failing grade he got his ASS whipped and told to get it up. There was a time when if the kid got in trouble at school he was in twice as much trouble when he got home! Hell, there was even a time when teachers didn't have to worry about being stabbed or shot while only trying to do their job....and when we didn't have to go into the restrooms and the cafeteria during the day to make sure that no kids were in there having sex or doing drugs....and we didn't have to take the blame from the parents when they get caught doing it!

Education began failing about the same time that parents became more worried about status and who to blame for their shortcomings. You want an accountability rating, well we live in a time where teachers are more educated, more tested, and more stringently evaluated than ever before....and the quality of education IS going down! How you ask? Because while you do have to have a degree and Certificate to teach, you don't have to have one to make a baby....and more and more unqualified people are having babies and there is no accountability on the most important job on earth...Being a Parent!

So you wanna fix the system, then look in the mirror and ask yourself....do I hold my kids accountable? If you do then make damn sure your kids do the same with theirs. Until we do...education is screwed!


I think we all will agree with this!
But if I understand the undertone of this comment you are saying that we have to CHANGE the entire world to "FIX" education? Is that correct? It would be great if we could make parents go back 5 decades and act like those parents did! but that will never happen. Our current system is an evolved relative of that system from times past. People are different! Times are different! Society is different! And the school system must be different! We have no choice but to fix the current system to work with what we have now! And probably not to the extent of public service but those same changes in society like loses of personal responsibility in America also effects every other business in this country. Everybody else adjusted or they would perish. It's time for the education system to adjust. In my opinion the first adjustment is to get rid of the people in the system that keep crying about how changes in society is preventing them from doing their job and even though the results don't warrant it they deserve more money. In my opinion it's a lot like the Labor unions for the auto industry who have caused a new truck to cost 45K. If we agree to give teachers 25% more money we would have the EXACT same education system with the EXACT same pass/fail rate and the EXACT same results across the board. The only difference would be that we would be spending 25% more for it....................
And I apoligize for my earlier rant. It wasn't meant for any one person.

[pancho villa]

I think we all will agree with this!
But if I understand the undertone of this comment you are saying that we have to CHANGE the entire world to "FIX" education? Is that correct? It would be great if we could make parents go back 5 decades and act like those parents did! but that will never happen. Our current system is an evolved relative of that system from times past. People are different! Times are different! Society is different! And the school system must be different! We have no choice but to fix the current system to work with what we have now! And probably not to the extent of public service but those same changes in society like loses of personal responsibility in America also effects every other business in this country. Everybody else adjusted or they would perish. It's time for the education system to adjust. In my opinion the first adjustment is to get rid of the people in the system that keep crying about how changes in society is preventing them from doing their job and even though the results don't warrant it they deserve more money. In my opinion it's a lot like the Labor unions for the auto industry who have caused a new truck to cost 45K. If we agree to give teachers 25% more money we would have the EXACT same education system with the EXACT same pass/fail rate and the EXACT same results across the board. The only difference would be that we would be spending 25% more for it....................
And I apoligize for my earlier rant. It wasn't meant for any one person.

I disagree we could make parents accountable! Who did you blame everytime your kids did something wrong the teacher or your kids? Deep down you know the true answer.

[Farmersfan]

We need to put in a few new rules in public schools.

1. whenever a kid fails a class the parent gets fined $100
2. a second failure $200 and go up $100 every time they fail a class.
3. Absent from school unexcused= $100 fine
4. Getting put in (In school supension) =$200 fine
5. alternitive school=$500 fine

I bet some of these no account parents will get off their butts then!



How about simply sending these kids to an alternative school where the expectations aren't so high and perhaps they can be taught the basics? You go to extremes when you advocate fining parents because they don't make YOUR job easy for you! And how about the huge number of bad teachers in our system? Do we fine them also?

[pancho villa]

How about simply sending these kids to an alternative school where the expectations aren't so high and perhaps they can be taught the basics? You go to extremes when you advocate fining parents because they don't make YOUR job easy for you! And how about the huge number of bad teachers in our system? Do we fine them also?

Don't want my job to be easier. I want parents to be accountable. Where have you been hiding in a closet? "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND" all kids can learn Physics, Pre-Cal, Chemestry, Algebra II just ask your Senate or House Rep.

[panfan]

[QUOTE=Farmersfan;1625778]I think we all will agree with this!
It's time for the education system to adjust. In my opinion the first adjustment is to get rid of the people in the system that keep crying about how changes in society is preventing them from doing their job and even though the results don't warrant it they deserve more money. /QUOTE]

You make some good points. The education system had adjusted, in a negative downward spiral, as opposed to a positive refinement of wwhat worked. Poloticians who viewed it as their mandate to make sure all kids got an EQUAL education, forgot one thing. Not everyone is on a level playing field nor capable of attaining an equal education. So instead of demanding a higher level of accountability, we dumbed it all down to bring the lowest of the low up. Why do you think so many folks are pulling their kids out of schools and educating them at home. Some are doing for religous reasons. Many are doing it because they beleive they can do a better job of it than the current system. Now - whose to blame, the teachers whose hands are tied as to what, how, and to what level they can teach a subject, the administrators who hand this crap down, the State who says this is how you are going to do it or the Feds who hold the purse strings and say, you can do what you want, but if you don't do it our way, don't expect any $$$$. Teachers hands, legs and arms are tied. Their mouths are covered. Administrators bow to parents with little to no education for fear they will go the school board and make a stink about how little jonnie is getting a raw deal. So YES society and ill informed government is ruining what used to be a productive education system.

[GrTigers6]

They would pass if the parents got hit in the pocketbook. They would help their kids study, make them do homework, get them extra help if needed. heaven forbid if the parents were held accountable for their kids.You can do everything and if they dont take the test or just tank the test, there is absolutely nothing a parent can do.
Do you have kids, or better yet teenagers?

[SintonFan]

I'm gonna rant one last time and then I'm done....but I get so sick and tired of hearing people gripe about how teachers are paid just right, how we are subpar, how the education system in America is broken, how bad teachers are to blame for poor results.....well lets put the blame where it really belongs. There was a time in America when Parents raised their own kids, where parents held those kids accountable for their own actions, where they didn't come running up to the school house raising cane because their kid failed a class that he only turned in 20% of the work...or how he shouldn't be disciplined because he called called the teacher a bitch to her face.... there was a time when a kid brought home a failing grade he got his ASS whipped and told to get it up. There was a time when if the kid got in trouble at school he was in twice as much trouble when he got home! Hell, there was even a time when teachers didn't have to worry about being stabbed or shot while only trying to do their job....and when we didn't have to go into the restrooms and the cafeteria during the day to make sure that no kids were in there having sex or doing drugs....and we didn't have to take the blame from the parents when they get caught doing it!

Education began failing about the same time that parents became more worried about status and who to blame for their shortcomings. You want an accountability rating, well we live in a time where teachers are more educated, more tested, and more stringently evaluated than ever before....and the quality of education IS going down! How you ask? Because while you do have to have a degree and Certificate to teach, you don't have to have one to make a baby....and more and more unqualified people are having babies and there is no accountability on the most important job on earth...Being a Parent!

So you wanna fix the system, then look in the mirror and ask yourself....do I hold my kids accountable? If you do then make damn sure your kids do the same with theirs. Until we do...education is screwed!

Good post. I agree.
Discipline(or lack thereof) is a major problem in school. Seriously, there is study after study(by too many psychiatrists to name) that point out that corporal punishment is "outdated" and "barbaric" and should never be instituted in public schools. The Problem with this line of thinking is that studies and opinions that school administrators use to determine their schools' corporal punishment policy never seem to work in real life. Sure, it looks good and sounds good, but life has a funny way of working out quite the opposite of what was intended.

[SintonFan]

Don't want my job to be easier. I want parents to be accountable. Where have you been hiding in a closet? "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND" all kids can learn Physics, Pre-Cal, Chemestry, Algebra II just ask your Senate or House Rep.

What's wrong with making children accountable?

[SintonFan]

How is fining parents gonna help a kid pass. You can tell him to do the work, help him do the work, but if he fails to turn it in then you have accomplished nothing. Unless you plan on parents going to school for them. or I guess you could fine the students, that makes just as much sense. Another thing is what if they dont pay it? do you suspend the kid? thats probably what he wants anyway
Im all for helping them pass but there is a line you have to draw on who is responsible for there efforts or lack there of. I agree with the laws about truincy and fining parents who knowingly let there kids skip but dont agree with fining for failing. Sometimes the kid just doesnt get it. Sometimes it takes a different teacher to understand. too many variables

If you think about it, Pancho has a point. All those fines would be a good source for the raise he wants. ;)

[JJWalker]

Parents cannot be held accountable.

Society will not let us. ... At least legally let us.

Thank goodness a good percentage of kids are voluntarily obedient and respectful.

Now ... why won't society let parents be accountable? It is simple ... because we pander to every group and behavior that claims minority status ... Starting with soccer moms. :eek:

[Farmersfan]

I disagree we could make parents accountable! Who did you blame everytime your kids did something wrong the teacher or your kids? Deep down you know the true answer.


So you are wanting to "FINE" your employers????????? Seriously?

[Macarthur]

I agree that my arguments are subjective...but so was yours.

You have posted objective numbers, the only problem is that you are posting teachers across the US and not teachers in Texas. Texas is one of the lowest paying States and also one of the Lowest performing. Maybe there is a theme there?

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/ranks/rank20.html

But really, Texas is in the middle of the pack. They're ranked 29th, the pay has increased over 12% since 2007 and there's only $1200 seperating their #29 spot and #23. The numbers say Texas is middle of the pack. I'm not saying that's good or bad. I'm simply saying that for you to say Texas is one of the worst states in teacher pay is not really accurate.

Again, this is not about whether I would want them to get more money. I just think the discussion needs to be detached from emotion and you have truly look at the numbers to get an accurate picture. I don't think you are being objective about the issue.


Anyway, you can argue all you want about Teacher Salary, but you wouldn't do the job for what we get paid. And that my friend speaks volumes!

This is a perfect example of what I was saying. You are being emotional and you know nothing about me and have no right commenting on what I would or would not do.

And I agree with 45's post. Quality education has to start in the home.

[DeuceDeuce]

We are trying to answer the wrong question.....The real questions is can, and how does society take care of a rising number of individuals that will not take care of themsevles? I do not have an answer for this, but to me that is the underlying problem with all of our social services.

We have increased the number of services and the number of people using those services and we do not have ways to pay for them.

I think everyone would agree that it would be great for teachers to be paid more for what they do, but how do you pay for it? For the most part teachers are content with what they get paid, but yes they would like more money. Doesn't everyone want to make more money????

I have a feeling that it will only get worse, we are NOT going to cut services, and I HOPE we don't raise taxes.

[DeuceDeuce]

MacArthur,

You are correct, we know nothing about you, but your profile picture speaks volumes!!!!

I picture is worth a thousand words!!!!!

[Macarthur]

MacArthur,

You are correct, we know nothing about you, but your profile picture speaks volumes!!!!

I picture is worth a thousand words!!!!!

Give me a break. I think your post tells us a lot more about you than my 'picture'.

[panfan]

What's wrong with making children accountable?

Both parent and child need to be accountable. Teachers and admins are held accountable - their jobs are tied to it. Have a % fail rate, even though little jonnie gets no support at home, can't make it to tutoring offered, and doesn't turn in his homework and guess who gets canned - teacher first. If its a larger problem, then admin. No one stops to think, Hmmmm. You know this might be a function of kids not being held accountable, low expectations at home, lack of parenting, etc.

And by the way, I got a few ass whippin's at school and again at home (double since both my parents taught in the district I went too, so they knew exactly what I did). I don't buy the psycho babble who define a new syndrome for every time some kid is a brat and needs a parent to take them buy the ear to the bathroom and wear their butts out. I found it to be a great deterrent to doing things that I might have done because it stopped me and made me think. OK - I do this, going to get in trouble. Licks at school - ahh so what. Licks from Dad, forget it.

[pancho villa]

You can do everything and if they dont take the test or just tank the test, there is absolutely nothing a parent can do.
Do you have kids, or better yet teenagers?

As a matter of fact 2. oldest just graduated from SHSU and is a Teacher/Coach. And the youngest is a Junior studying Civil Engineering at Texas A@M. We made our kids accountable for their actions.

[Farmersfan]

[QUOTE=Farmersfan;1625778]I think we all will agree with this!
It's time for the education system to adjust. In my opinion the first adjustment is to get rid of the people in the system that keep crying about how changes in society is preventing them from doing their job and even though the results don't warrant it they deserve more money. /QUOTE]

You make some good points. The education system had adjusted, in a negative downward spiral, as opposed to a positive refinement of wwhat worked. Poloticians who viewed it as their mandate to make sure all kids got an EQUAL education, forgot one thing. Not everyone is on a level playing field nor capable of attaining an equal education. So instead of demanding a higher level of accountability, we dumbed it all down to bring the lowest of the low up. Why do you think so many folks are pulling their kids out of schools and educating them at home. Some are doing for religous reasons. Many are doing it because they beleive they can do a better job of it than the current system. Now - whose to blame, the teachers whose hands are tied as to what, how, and to what level they can teach a subject, the administrators who hand this crap down, the State who says this is how you are going to do it or the Feds who hold the purse strings and say, you can do what you want, but if you don't do it our way, don't expect any $$$$. Teachers hands, legs and arms are tied. Their mouths are covered. Administrators bow to parents with little to no education for fear they will go the school board and make a stink about how little jonnie is getting a raw deal. So YES society and ill informed government is ruining what used to be a productive education system.



Good points! But the key phrase is "Use to be"! It doesn't work anymore with today's society. So why are trying for force feed today's society yesterday's successful policies? We need to adjust THIS system to work with THIS society! I personally think that the kids should be held accountable and if they don't do their work and make the grades they get mandated for a trade path in their education. In my opinion the only kids worthy of the extra advanced level (or college level) training would those kids that prove themselves worthy. I think it's time we adopted some fairly harsh attitudes about things or we will continue to spiral downward. We need to recognize that the world needs ditch diggers too and stop letting people like Black Magic convince us that EVERYONE deserves equally. Not everyone can achieve equally and not everyone deserves equally!

[SintonFan]

Both parent and child need to be accountable. Teachers and admins are held accountable - their jobs are tied to it. Have a % fail rate, even though little jonnie gets no support at home, can't make it to tutoring offered, and doesn't turn in his homework and guess who gets canned - teacher first. If its a larger problem, then admin. No one stops to think, Hmmmm. You know this might be a function of kids not being held accountable, low expectations at home, lack of parenting, etc.

And by the way, I got a few ass whippin's at school and again at home (double since both my parents taught int he district I went too, so they knew exactly what I did). I don't buy the psycho babble who define a new syndrome for every time some kid is a brat, needs a parent to take them buy the ear to the bathroom and wear their butts out. I found it to ab a great deterrent to doing things that a might ahve done cause it stopped me and made me think. OK - I do this, going to get in trouble. Licks at school - ahh so what. Licks from Dad, forget it.

I never mentioned it should be kid's only. But personal responsibility should be stressed for children, too.

[pancho villa]

So you are wanting to "FINE" your employers????????? Seriously?

Your not my employer. I pay the Taxes for my own Salary!

[DeuceDeuce]

[QUOTE=panfan;1625790]



Good points! But the key phrase is "Use to be"! It doesn't work anymore with today's society. So why are trying for force feed today's society yesterday's successful policies? We need to adjust THIS system to work with THIS society! I personally think that the kids should be held accountable and if they don't do their work and make the grades they get mandated for a trade path in their education. In my opinion the only kids worthy of the extra advanced level (or college level) training would those kids that prove themselves worthy. I think it's time we adopted some fairly harsh attitudes about things or we will continue to spiral downward. We need to recognize that the world needs ditch diggers too and stop letting people like Black Magic convince us that EVERYONE deserves equally. Not everyone can achieve equally and not everyone deserves equally!


Agreed....but that would go directly against The Constitution....will never happen.

Not only that but the Supreme Court in 1972 ruled that children that were not US citizens are still protected under the 14th Ammendment and MUST be given a public education.

[coachc45]

What's wrong with making children accountable?

How can I make them accountable? You, the parent, have to! It makes absolutely no difference what I tell a child if the parent doesn't back it up! You keep whining about how can a parent make a kid so what he doesn't want to do.....well its simple, teach him, hold him accountable at a young age, and quit coming up with excuses for his behavior and your short-comings as a parent.

My parents taught me by holding me accountable....they beat my ass when I did wrong, and if that wouldn't have worked they would've kicked my ass out of the house. Kids figure out real quick how to act right! But it starts when they are small, it is amazing when I hear all this crap! "I can't make them" BS!!!!!!
I've raised 2 grown boys who I am extremely proud of....I did it by setting boundaries, holding them accountable, and punishments that work! Now I get to enjoy their accomplishments and know that I have done my JOB well!!!!!

[pancho villa]

[QUOTE=panfan;1625790]



Good points! But the key phrase is "Use to be"! It doesn't work anymore with today's society. So why are trying for force feed today's society yesterday's successful policies? We need to adjust THIS system to work with THIS society! I personally think that the kids should be held accountable and if they don't do their work and make the grades they get mandated for a trade path in their education. In my opinion the only kids worthy of the extra advanced level (or college level) training would those kids that prove themselves worthy. I think it's time we adopted some fairly harsh attitudes about things or we will continue to spiral downward. We need to recognize that the world needs ditch diggers too and stop letting people like Black Magic convince us that EVERYONE deserves equally. Not everyone can achieve equally and not everyone deserves equally!

This is the first thing I agree with you on.

[pancho villa]

If you think about it, Pancho has a point. All those fines would be a good source for the raise he wants. ;)

You have not read on here I want more $. I want parents to be accountable for their kids actions!!!!!

[SintonFan]

How can I make them accountable? You, the parent, have to! It makes absolutely no difference what I tell a child if the parent doesn't back it up! You keep whining about how can a parent make a kid so what he doesn't want to do.....well its simple, teach him, hold him accountable at a young age, and quit coming up with excuses for his behavior and your short-comings as a parent.

My parents taught me by holding me accountable....they beat my ass when I did wrong, and if that wouldn't have worked they would've kicked my ass out of the house. Kids figure out real quick how to act right! But it starts when they are small, it is amazing when I hear all this crap! "I can't make them" BS!!!!!!
I've raised 2 grown boys who I am extremely proud of....I did it by setting boundaries, holding them accountable, and punishments that work! Now I get to enjoy their accomplishments and know that I have done my JOB well!!!!!

Whoa! You must have misread my post or have me confused with someone else. Did you EVEN READ my posts about corporal punishment above?:rolleyes:

[SintonFan]

You have not read on here I want more $. I want parents to be accountable for their kids actions!!!!!

I digress. But one does go with the other...

[DeuceDeuce]

Give me a break. I think your post tells us a lot more about you than my 'picture'.


Again, not trying to offend anyone, but with all the pictures in the world, you CHOSE that 1 to represent YOU!!!!

[coachc45]

You can do everything and if they dont take the test or just tank the test, there is absolutely nothing a parent can do.
Do you have kids, or better yet teenagers?

If you did their job when they were young....they would take that test and do their best. Don't make excuses for the kids, accept the responsibility on yourself. It is your job to teach them respect, hard work, and discipline!!! DO IT!

[SintonFan]

I want parents to be accountable for their kids actions!!!!!

I agree! But fining parents? Are you serious?

[panfan]

[QUOTE=Farmersfan;1625813]


Agreed....but that would go directly against The Constitution....will never happen.

Not only that but the Supreme Court in 1972 ruled that children that were not US citizens are still protected under the 14th Ammendment and MUST be given a public education.

Its not the illegal aliens that are the majority of this problem. Its poorly educated whites, blacks, mexicans, indians who pass on their further inadequecies to their children. Review some TAKS scores and you can easily see the makeup of who is lagging behind. Notice I didn't include asians?
Their culture expects and demands excellence in eductation. They are kicking our butts globally in math and science. Accountability at home and at schools has to occur in order to move back up the ladder. Schools tried it via mandated testing. Didn't work. Guess what - we are continuing this proven failed approach.

[coachc45]

Whoa! You must have misread my post or have me confused with someone else. Did you EVEN READ my posts about corporal punishment above?:rolleyes:

I read them...but you come straight back and say don't hold the parents accountable, hold the kids. Well how can I hold them accountable if you don't.

I ain't advocating Corporal punishment in school....I'm advocating it at home! But I am not against it in school either!

[Farmersfan]

Your not my employer. I pay the Taxes for my own Salary!



It's semantics pancho! You are a public servant which means your salary is paid by the tax payers. You and I both work for the tax payers! If we can't do our job, we shouldn't keep our job! End of story!

And you are paying such a ridiculously small percentage of your own salary it isn't even worth the discussion. I had a man tell me once he paid my salary so I asked him how much he paid in taxes, he told me, I then told him my employer had 1800 employees and had to split his contribution. I then handed him a single penny and told him to shut the F*** up. Oh yea, and keep the change!!!!

[coachc45]

[QUOTE=DeuceDeuce;1625818]

Its not the illegal aliens that are the majority of this problem. Its poorly educated whites, blacks, mexicans, indians who pass on their further inadequecies to their children. Review some TAKS scores and you can easily see the makeup of who is lagging behind. Notice I didn't include asians?
Their culture expects and demands excellence in eductation. They are kicking our butts globally in math and science. Accountability at home and at schools has to occur in order to move back up the ladder. Schools tried it via mandated testing. Didn't work. Guess what - we are continuing this proven failed approach.

Don't compare the US to other countries!!!! Its not a level playing field. They are not educating all the kids, just the brightest! Its like trying to compare apples to big shiny diamonds!

Want to compare globally, then let us follow the global model! Take the academic kids and educate them academically...and take the others and teach them a trade.

[SintonFan]

I never mentioned it should be kid's only. But personal responsibility should be stressed for children, too.


I read them...but you come straight back and say don't hold the parents accountable, hold the kids. Well how can I hold them accountable if you don't.

I ain't advocating Corporal punishment in school....I'm advocating it at home! But I am not against it in school either!

You seemed to have missed THIS.:nerd:

[panfan]

[QUOTE=panfan;1625827]

Don't compare the US to other countries!!!! Its not a level playing field. They are not educating all the kids, just the brightest! Its like trying to compare apples to big shiny diamonds!

Want to compare globally, then let us follow the global model! Take the academic kids and educate them academically...and take the others and teach them a trade.

I have no problem with this - bring back the trades in HS - auto shop, woodshop, drafting. I'm all for it.

[Macarthur]

Again, not trying to offend anyone, but with all the pictures in the world, you CHOSE that 1 to represent YOU!!!!

Exactly what I was wanting to do with the picture. I am a murdering, rapist sociopath. You're right, avatar pictures tell you all you need to know about a person.

[SintonFan]

Want to compare globally, then let us follow the global model! Take the academic kids and educate them academically...and take the others and teach them a trade.

Ouch! That doesn't sound very much like freedom...

[DeuceDeuce]

[QUOTE=DeuceDeuce;1625818]

Its not the illegal aliens that are the majority of this problem. Its poorly educated whites, blacks, mexicans, indians who pass on their further inadequecies to their children. Review some TAKS scores and you can easily see the makeup of who is lagging behind. Notice I didn't include asians?
Their culture expects and demands excellence in eductation. They are kicking our butts globally in math and science. Accountability at home and at schools has to occur in order to move back up the ladder. Schools tried it via mandated testing. Didn't work. Guess what - we are continuing this proven failed approach.

If it sounded like I was saying that was the majority of the problem, that is not what I meant.

[panfan]

[QUOTE=panfan;1625827]

If it sounded like I was saying that was the majority of the problem, that is not what I meant.
OK - kinda came across that way to me.

[DeuceDeuce]

Exactly what I was wanting to do with the picture. I am a murdering, rapist sociopath. You're right, avatar pictures tell you all you need to know about a person.


I didn't say ALL I needed to know, but it does say something about who you are. Does it not? It was a random picture and has no meaning or significance?

Off topic a little, but do you own a top hat like the one in the picture????

[Farmersfan]

If you did their job when they were young....they would take that test and do their best. Don't make excuses for the kids, accept the responsibility on yourself. It is your job to teach them respect, hard work, and discipline!!! DO IT!



I'm wondering where this is written?

[Farmersfan]

[QUOTE=DeuceDeuce;1625818]

Its not the illegal aliens that are the majority of this problem. Its poorly educated whites, blacks, mexicans, indians who pass on their further inadequecies to their children. Review some TAKS scores and you can easily see the makeup of who is lagging behind. Notice I didn't include asians?
Their culture expects and demands excellence in eductation. They are kicking our butts globally in math and science. Accountability at home and at schools has to occur in order to move back up the ladder. Schools tried it via mandated testing. Didn't work. Guess what - we are continuing this proven failed approach.


Don't disagree with this in the least. But bringing back approaches from the past won't work either or we would not have changed them in the first place.

[pancho villa]

[QUOTE=panfan;1625827]


Don't disagree with this in the least. But bringing back approaches from the past won't work either or we would not have changed them in the first place.

Because nobody in charge of school education has any Balls anymore. Because they are all women. Even at my house I had to be the bad guy, because my wife was to soft on my kids at times.

[BEAST]

[QUOTE=DeuceDeuce;1625818]

Its not the illegal aliens that are the majority of this problem. Its poorly educated whites, blacks, mexicans, indians who pass on their further inadequecies to their children. Review some TAKS scores and you can easily see the makeup of who is lagging behind. Notice I didn't include asians?
Their culture expects and demands excellence in eductation. They are kicking our butts globally in math and science. Accountability at home and at schools has to occur in order to move back up the ladder. Schools tried it via mandated testing. Didn't work. Guess what - we are continuing this proven failed approach.

At face value they are kicking our butt. However, if you dig deeper, they do what many on here have said we should do. If a kid dont get it, they dont keep trying to make them get it. Instead they train them for a certain line of work. So, when you look at test scores and compare us to them, they dont have bottom feeders pulling their scores down.




BEAST

[GrTigers6]

If you did their job when they were young....they would take that test and do their best. Don't make excuses for the kids, accept the responsibility on yourself. It is your job to teach them respect, hard work, and discipline!!! DO IT!I have and if you ask anyone that knows my kids then they would say they are the best mannered and behaved kids they know. But that doesnt help them pass a class that they just dont understand. You have no idea who I am and how well my kids have turned out so dont ever assume that I didnt teach them anything about how to learn.
I have 3 kids, 1st Daughter. Great grades top 7 in her class gpa 3.9. Two boys who struggled with their grades until it finally clicked by their junior year. So are you telling me that i did a good job with the oldest but not with the boys? I treated all mine the same and got seperate results

[Farmersfan]

[QUOTE=Farmersfan;1625842]

Because nobody in charge of school education has any Balls anymore. Because they are all women. Even at my house I had to be the bad guy, because my wife was to soft on my kids at times.



It seems nobody in charge of anything these days has any balls anymore. This doesn't only apply to the education system! My point was that IF balls are required for the old system to work and nobody has balls these days then why would we reinstate the old system??????

[panfan]

[QUOTE=panfan;1625827]


Don't disagree with this in the least. But bringing back approaches from the past won't work either or we would not have changed them in the first place.

Sometimes, a new wrinkles on an old approach is just what is needed. I'm not syaing bring back an old ineffective approach, but there were old approaches that did work that were abandoned. Sometimes we need to revisit the past to look at what worked and what didn't and come up with some new/old ideas.

[44INAROW]

She should of told the Principal to eat a root!

I totally agree Pancho!

[coachc45]

I have and if you ask anyone that knows my kids then they would say they are the best mannered and behaved kids they know. But that doesnt help them pass a class that they just dont understand. You have no idea who I am and how well my kids have turned out so dont ever assume that I didnt teach them anything about how to learn.
I have 3 kids, 1st Daughter. Great grades top 7 in her class gpa 3.9. Two boys who struggled with their grades until it finally clicked by their junior year. So are you telling me that i did a good job with the oldest but not with the boys? I treated all mine the same and got seperate results

I am not saying that...what I said was a response to your statement about how do you make them take the test or try? You instill it into them as children and they have it engrained. Whether a kid understands or not has nothing to do with whether he should try. Heck, I don't understand where Farmerfan or MacArthur are coming from....but I'm still trying hard!

You may have great kids, and I'm sure you do, but I also am willing to bet that you held them accountable if they didn't put out effort thats why it finally clicked for them! So why on earth would you make the statement, "How can you make them take the test or not tank the test?" You already knew the answer.

[coachc45]

I'm wondering where this is written?

Thats the problem...its not written! Its implied with Parenthood! Surely you know this? If not, then its a waste of time talking to you or reading anymore of your comments.

[panfan]

This was so timely, I had to post it. Enjoy


No Child Left Behind - Football Version
1. All teams must make the state playoffs and all MUST win the championship. If a team does not win the championship, they will be on probation until they are the champions, and coaches will be held accountable. If after two years they have not won the championship their footballs and equipment will be taken away UNTIL they do win the championship.
2. All kids will be expected to have the same football skills at the same time even if they do not have the same conditions or opportunities to practice on their own. NO exceptions will be made for lack of interest in football, a desire to perform athletically, or genetic abilities or disabilities of themselves or of their parents.
ALL KIDS WILL PLAY FOOTBALL AT A PROFICIENT LEVEL!
3. Talented players will be asked to work out on their own, without instruction. This is because the coaches will be using all their instructional time with the athletes who aren’t interested in football, have limited athletic ability or whose parents don’t like football.
4. Games will be played year round, but statistics will only be kept in the 4th, 8th, and 11th game. It will create a New Age of Sports where every school is expected to have the same level of talent and all teams will reach the same minimum goals.
If no child gets ahead, then no child gets left behind.
If parents do not like this new law, they are encouraged to vote for vouchers and to support private schools that can screen out the non-athletes and prevent their children from having to go to school with bad football.

[GrTigers6]

I am not saying that...what I said was a response to your statement about how do you make them take the test or try? You instill it into them as children and they have it engrained. Whether a kid understands or not has nothing to do with whether he should try. Heck, I don't understand where Farmerfan or MacArthur are coming from....but I'm still trying hard!

You may have great kids, and I'm sure you do, but I also am willing to bet that you held them accountable if they didn't put out effort thats why it finally clicked for them! So why on earth would you make the statement, "How can you make them take the test or not tank the test?" You already knew the answer.Because some kids no matter how hard their parents try, dont care and you can do everything to help them and then they either dont show up or just dont take it seriously. My boys it took losing a 3 weeks due to no pass no play for them to finally realize the importance. In fact when they were in grade school i told them all that if they graduated in the top ten of their class I would buy them a new car for graduation( what they didnt know was that saved me more than that in scholarships) lol My daughter was the only one that did it. Now of course the boys are wishing they would have paid attention more. But at that age they have so much going on that they wont even tell you they broke up with a girlfriend or that someone( usually me) made them mad. Communication is a big obstacle that will always get in the way and until they mature enough to see that we are there to help they will be rebellious.

[SintonFan]

Because nobody in charge of school education has any Balls anymore. Because they are all women. Even at my house I had to be the bad guy, because my wife was to soft on my kids at times.

I can totally relate to that. Since day one, the onus of discipline was put squarely on my shoulders. My wife didn't want to be "the bad guy". Hell, I didn't care. I just wanted good kids more than anything else. It is tough sometimes but I know they benefit from it. Possibly the hardest part is getting the kids to understand that they shouldn't let their emotions rule themselves. Historically, girls especially have a hard time with that, but I think today it's hard to tell the difference between many boys and girls. :(

[Farmersfan]

Thats the problem...its not written! Its implied with Parenthood! Surely you know this? If not, then its a waste of time talking to you or reading anymore of your comments.



Implied by WHO? And I do agree 100% with what you say about what parents should do. My point is that a lot of parents WILL NOT do it. So we can sit here for an eternity and cry about what parent will or will not do and we will get nowhere. We could try to get lawmakers to pass laws dictating to parents how they should raise their kids, but good luck with that! So until we get laws on the books that make parenting a certain way a law then we have to work with what we got. Wishing and hoping for things to be differently doesn't change reality. Besides, even though I do agree that a parent should teach their kids to respect and to exceed expectations in school, if I didn't and you tried to force me, you ould have a battle on your hands of epic proportions. It's what we like to call "FREEDOM" and "THE AMERICAN WAY"!

[Macarthur]

I didn't say ALL I needed to know, but it does say something about who you are.

You said a lot. There's not a great distance between a lot and all. They're closer than say all and very little. Agree?



Does it not? It was a random picture and has no meaning or significance?

Seeing as how I am personally nothing like the character in the movie, No it says very little about me. Since you've gone on this weird path, I'll fill you in. I think the movie was a wonderful film and very groundbreaking for it's time. I think the character of Alex DeLarge is a facinating character and really it's nothing more than I thought the picture was kinda cool. So really that's all it boils down to. I'm about as conservative and normal a business and family man as they come.

This conversation reminds me of the old saying of not reading a book by its cover. I'm wondering if you are same type of person that sees a kid with a rock n roll Tshirt and maybe some sort of piercing and makes a judgement on that person's character?


Off topic a little, but do you own a top hat like the one in the picture????

No

[coachc45]

Because some kids no matter how hard their parents try, dont care and you can do everything to help them and then they either dont show up or just dont take it seriously. My boys it took losing a 3 weeks due to no pass no play for them to finally realize the importance. In fact when they were in grade school i told them all that if they graduated in the top ten of their class I would buy them a new car for graduation( what they didnt know was that saved me more than that in scholarships) lol My daughter was the only one that did it. Now of course the boys are wishing they would have paid attention more. But at that age they have so much going on that they wont even tell you they broke up with a girlfriend or that someone( usually me) made them mad. Communication is a big obstacle that will always get in the way and until they mature enough to see that we are there to help they will be rebellious.

I am not naive enough to think think that all kids will be perfect if they have proper parents. But if you spend 5 minutes in the education world, you will see that it is becoming more and more that the parents didn't take responsibility for their kids and are actually spending more time finding someone else to blame for their own kids behavior and their own failure as a parent.

Let me ask you this, when your kids weren't putting out enough effort did you run to the school and blame everyone from the bus driver to the Supt, or did you put the blame on your kids? I am willing to bet, you put it on your kids. If thats the case, I'm not talking to you with those statements. But I also think that if thats the case, you are naive if you believe that your situation is what 90% of the underachieving kids out there are doing. All you have to do is walk in my shoes for one day, make the parent phone calls and you find out that your situation is extremely rare!

[WildTexan972]

your friend that posted this is probably a teacher and that explains part of the problem with teachers thinking they are not paid enough.....the "wage" these parents would pay for daycare would be a "fee" paid to the business owner, in this case the ISD - which then would pay the "wage" to the teachers for their daycare work and summers off...

football coaches work lots of hours....I doubt History teachers put in much more than a normal 8 hour day - how many times has history changed the past 200 years from what it was?



I thought this was a cool little paragraph that one of my friends posted on fb


Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! We can get that for minimum wage. That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That ...would be $19.50 a day (7:45 t......o 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours). Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET'S SEE.. That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year. Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here! There sure is!
The average teacher's salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!

[GrTigers6]

I am not naive enough to think think that all kids will be perfect if they have proper parents. But if you spend 5 minutes in the education world, you will see that it is becoming more and more that the parents didn't take responsibility for their kids and are actually spending more time finding someone else to blame for their own kids behavior and their own failure as a parent.

Let me ask you this, when your kids weren't putting out enough effort did you run to the school and blame everyone from the bus driver to the Supt, or did you put the blame on your kids? I am willing to bet, you put it on your kids. If thats the case, I'm not talking to you with those statements. But I also think that if thats the case, you are naive if you believe that your situation is what 90% of the underachieving kids out there are doing. All you have to do is walk in my shoes for one day, make the parent phone calls and you find out that your situation is extremely rare!I am around the school every day I see it at all levels. I work here!

[coachc45]

Implied by WHO? And I do agree 100% with what you say about what parents should do. My point is that a lot of parents WILL NOT do it. So we can sit here for an eternity and cry about what parent will or will not do and we will get nowhere. We could try to get lawmakers to pass laws dictating to parents how they should raise their kids, but good luck with that! So until we get laws on the books that make parenting a certain way a law then we have to work with what we got. Wishing and hoping for things to be differently doesn't change reality. Besides, even though I do agree that a parent should teach their kids to respect and to exceed expectations in school, if I didn't and you tried to force me, you ould have a battle on your hands of epic proportions. It's what we like to call "FREEDOM" and "THE AMERICAN WAY"!

So your solution is to constantly blame the teachers. With every post about fixing education you say don't pay them more.... hold them accountable... change the system..... but you offer No way of doing it! You just don't want your taxes raised. Well, Let me tell you about the "Freedom" you speak of...it ain't free. and "The American Way" is that we fund things from TAXES.

And you mean to tell me that you would put a an "EPIC" battle to defend your "RIGHT" to not raise your kids? That speaks volumes about you!

[pancho villa]

All you people that keep harping the system is broken so we need to keep up with the times are wrong. We need to go back to when kids were educated acording to their ability. ie woodshop, auto mech and so on. Everybody can't be a rocket scientist!

[pancho villa]

I am around the school every day I see it at all levels. I work here!



janitor?

[GrTigers6]

janitor?No, maintenance supervisor and Pest Control Coordinator
Like I said I see it all

[panfan]

All you people that keep harping the system is broken so we need to keep up with the times are wrong. We need to go back to when kids were educated acording to their ability. ie woodshop, auto mech and so on. Everybody can't be a rocket scientist!

:iagree:

[pancho villa]

So your solution is to constantly blame the teachers. With every post about fixing education you say don't pay them more.... hold them accountable... change the system..... but you offer No way of doing it! You just don't want your taxes raised. Well, Let me tell you about the "Freedom" you speak of...it ain't free. and "The American Way" is that we fund things from TAXES.

And you mean to tell me that you would put a an "EPIC" battle to defend your "RIGHT" to not raise your kids? That speaks volumes about you!

Farmersfan wan't a subsidy when his crops fail, or when kids can't act right he wants' teachers held accountable. "By gosh it is my right as an American" But you teachers better educate my kids, and like how you do it, cause I pay your salary in Taxes.

[Manso/V8]

All you people that keep harping the system is broken so we need to keep up with the times are wrong. We need to go back to when kids were educated acording to their ability. ie woodshop, auto mech and so on. Everybody can't be a rocket scientist!

It is not just ability, but interest as well. Kids that like to wrench on cars, like to wrench on cars and go above and beyond in ag/auto mechanics, etc. Our high school just built an awesome ag/ag mechanics facility, and we have good vocational ed teachers......and it has kids excited about learning trades. The bond to get this facility built passed easily, unlike most other bonds. The public understood that it was needed and important. A lot of kids around here don't want to go to college, may not have the means, or the drive. Some will go to Blinn for a year or two, and then go to a trade school. We are a lot better off as a community to have young 20-somethings with the skills to get decent paying jobs and flying right, rather than hanging around idle.

[pancho villa]

It is not just ability, but interest as well. Kids that like to wrench on cars, like to wrench on cars and go above and beyond in ag/auto mechanics, etc. Our high school just built an awesome ag/ag mechanics facility, and we have good vocational ed teachers......and it has kids excited about learning trades. The bond to get this facility built passed easily, unlike most other bonds. The public understood that it was needed and important. A lot of kids around here don't want to go to college, may not have the means, or the drive. Some will go to Blinn for a year or two, and then go to a trade school. We are a lot better off as a community to have young 20-somethings with the skills to get decent paying jobs and flying right, rather than hanging around idle.

Nice! Glad your school is doing things right. (The old way)

[coachc45]

Nice! Glad your school is doing things right. (The old way)
Totally agree!

[Black_Magic]

The real problem is with the nation in general. the middle class is shrinking. more and more folks are not making what they use to. tax base is smaller. less money to fund programs. the middle class is less prosperous than 30-40 years ago. leads to a decline in the family because parents work harder and longer to make ends meet. all the while make less and less in reality per hour. We now have the highest income disparity that we have had since 1928. Their is a casim not a gap anymore. so now you hear about Teachers , fire fighters, police, blue collar folks gripe that the pay is not fair. Want proof? look at the 99%ers all over the country that are protesting. Last time this kind of thing happened was 1931 when the Bonus Army protested by the thousands in washington DC... I dont think you should have equality of income. I just think the middle class has gotten the shaft because the 1% has stacked the deck by using wealth in order to cut thier own taxes AND has taken a Disproprtionate share of the pie. It has to stop and people should get a fair wage in all areas. The 1% has not worked harder to get that income to go up so much.. They have stacked the deck. Its just now comming to a head in many many ways.

[pancho villa]

Totally agree!

You in Chandler Arizona?

[Farmersfan]

You said a lot. There's not a great distance between a lot and all. They're closer than say all and very little. Agree?




Seeing as how I am personally nothing like the character in the movie, No it says very little about me. Since you've gone on this weird path, I'll fill you in. I think the movie was a wonderful film and very groundbreaking for it's time. I think the character of Alex DeLarge is a facinating character and really it's nothing more than I thought the picture was kinda cool. So really that's all it boils down to. I'm about as conservative and normal a business and family man as they come.

This conversation reminds me of the old saying of not reading a book by its cover. I'm wondering if you are same type of person that sees a kid with a rock n roll Tshirt and maybe some sort of piercing and makes a judgement on that person's character?
No


It's probably a good thing you didn't have a picture of King Kong on your avatar or you might be labeled as a gorilla wanna-be. Or perhaps you harbor some desire to kidnap a pretty girl and take up on a tall building??? :stirpot:

[BwdLion73]

I've looked at the 99% and I ain't one of them. Times are tough ... might have to sell one or two of your love slaves.

[coachc45]

You in Chandler Arizona?

Texas.....Coach at John Tyler, but was at Brownsboro for 6 years before this.

[Farmersfan]

So your solution is to constantly blame the teachers. With every post about fixing education you say don't pay them more.... hold them accountable... change the system..... but you offer No way of doing it! You just don't want your taxes raised. Well, Let me tell you about the "Freedom" you speak of...it ain't free. and "The American Way" is that we fund things from TAXES.

And you mean to tell me that you would put a an "EPIC" battle to defend your "RIGHT" to not raise your kids? That speaks volumes about you!


I guess we all see how you roll! You forget parts of the comments you read and misquote the other parts!

I have yet to blame teachers for the current conditions! But by the same token I have yet to give a blanket "NOT TO BLAME" statement like you have. I believe there are a awful lot of great teachers out there that deserve more money. But there are an equal number of average or less than average teachers out there. So I would not vote to give ALL teachers more money.

And I did give my opinion on how to fix a lot of the problems. I said we should have two career paths for school kids. One would be for performers and self motivated kids and the other would be for those kids that either can't keep up or won't keep up. That second group is trained in a concentration of the basics that they will need to survive as a blue collar worker. Of course a highly motivated kid that doesn't make the "Performers" level of education can always still go to college and can obtain whatever level of success they are able to but their own actions determined how much of the public money was going to be invested in them. Of course this idea also would never become reality in today's society.

And you misunderstand: I never said anything about "not raising my kids"! We have laws against that. What I said was that I would put up a EPIC battle to prevent YOU from telling me how to raise my kids. And your comments about "freedom" and "the American Way" are just stupid. They have to relevance in the conversation. We all know how we fund things in this country. We all also know that OVERFUNDING things in this country has nothing to do with Freedom or the American Way!

[Manso/V8]

This might be a little off topic, but it is pretty evident to me that some parents aren't teaching accountability to their kids. I take it that a lot of yall are teachers and coaches on this thread. Do any of yall think that a course directed at personal accountability, manners, respect, etc could be developed and would be effective, or have an impact? The lack of these traits are going to be a problem for a lot of kids once they get out of school and move on to college or start working.

Another basic point of life that I don't think in many homes is personal finance. I could see how a high school course in basic personal finance, consumer credit, loans, savings, taxes, retirement, etc could be a big benefit to young people.....not to mention their parents.

[icu812]

The real problem is with the nation in general. the middle class is shrinking. more and more folks are not making what they use to. tax base is smaller. less money to fund programs. the middle class is less prosperous than 30-40 years ago. leads to a decline in the family because parents work harder and longer to make ends meet. all the while make less and less in reality per hour. We now have the highest income disparity that we have had since 1928. Their is a casim not a gap anymore. so now you hear about Teachers , fire fighters, police, blue collar folks gripe that the pay is not fair. Want proof? look at the 99%ers all over the country that are protesting. Last time this kind of thing happened was 1931 when the Bonus Army protested by the thousands in washington DC... I dont think you should have equality of income. I just think the middle class has gotten the shaft because the 1% has stacked the deck by using wealth in order to cut thier own taxes AND has taken a Disproprtionate share of the pie. It has to stop and people should get a fair wage in all areas. The 1% has not worked harder to get that income to go up so much.. They have stacked the deck. Its just now comming to a head in many many ways.

IMO, declining middle class incomes have nothing to do with the 1%. Those "99%ers" should be protesting their government for the bail outs and giving away tax payer money to industries that couldn't survive on their own. Let them fail. The economy is not a "pie". What is wrong with income disparity? Take from them and give to me is not a recipe for growth. We need equality in tax rates not equality of income. Better yet get rid of income tax all together. :-)

[coachc45]

I guess we all see how you roll! You forget parts of the comments you read and misquote the other parts!

I have yet to blame teachers for the current conditions! But by the same token I have yet to give a blanket "NOT TO BLAME" statement like you have. I believe there are a awful lot of great teachers out there that deserve more money. But there are an equal number of average or less than average teachers out there. So I would not vote to give ALL teachers more money.

And I did give my opinion on how to fix a lot of the problems. I said we should have two career paths for school kids. One would be for performers and self motivated kids and the other would be for those kids that either can't keep up or won't keep up. That second group is trained in a concentration of the basics that they will need to survive as a blue collar worker. Of course a highly motivated kid that doesn't make the "Performers" level of education can always still go to college and can obtain whatever level of success they are able to but their own actions determined how much of the public money was going to be invested in them. Of course this idea also would never become reality in today's society.

And you misunderstand: I never said anything about "not raising my kids"! We have laws against that. What I said was that I would put up a EPIC battle to prevent YOU from telling me how to raise my kids. And your comments about "freedom" and "the American Way" are just stupid. They have to relevance in the conversation. We all know how we fund things in this country. We all also know that OVERFUNDING things in this country has nothing to do with Freedom or the American Way!


SHHHHH...I'm not listening to you anymore, spin doctor.

[Farmersfan]

SHHHHH...I'm not listening to you anymore, spin doctor.



Glad to meet you Pot!

signed, The Kettle. :wave:

[Farmersfan]

IMO, declining middle class incomes have nothing to do with the 1%. Those "99%ers" should be protesting their government for the bail outs and giving away tax payer money to industries that couldn't survive on their own. Let them fail. The economy is not a "pie". What is wrong with income disparity? Take from them and give to me is not a recipe for growth. We need equality in tax rates not equality of income. Better yet get rid of income tax all together. :-)



Perfect! And EVERYBODY pays a equal share regardless of what you earn.

[Farmersfan]

SHHHHH...I'm not listening to you anymore, spin doctor.



Wanna hear a story about Two Princes? :)

[Black_Magic]

Perfect! And EVERYBODY pays a equal share regardless of what you earn. listening to you guys makes me think im watching Fox news.. LOL Facts are 78% of people feel like we should tax the wealthy more. look at the polls.

[BEAST]

listening to you guys makes me think im watching Fox news.. LOL Facts are 78% of people feel like we should tax the wealthy more. look at the polls.


And listening to you is like MSNBC. Which polls are you referring to? I dont put much stock in polls, fact is the people who make up the polls usually make sure the people being asked the questions are in a region that will get them the answers they want.




BEAST

[OldNavy]

Perfect! And EVERYBODY pays a equal share regardless of what you earn.

He said equality in tax rates, not an equal share. 20% flat tax requires people who earn more to pay more. $100,000 earner would pay $20,000, a $200,000 earner would pay $40,000. Earn more, pay more. Perhaps I am not understanding what you expect.

[icu812]

listening to you guys makes me think im watching Fox news.. LOL Facts are 78% of people feel like we should tax the wealthy more. look at the polls.

This isn't a democracy.

Thomas Jefferson: A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%.

Karl Marx: Democracy is the road to socialism.

[Farmersfan]

He said equality in tax rates, not an equal share. 20% flat tax requires people who earn more to pay more. $100,000 earner would pay $20,000, a $200,000 earner would pay $40,000. Earn more, pay more. Perhaps I am not understanding what you expect.



This is what I said! Everybody pays the exact same percent regardless of what you earn...............

[Farmersfan]

listening to you guys makes me think im watching Fox news.. LOL Facts are 78% of people feel like we should tax the wealthy more. look at the polls.



And more than 50% of the population doesn't even pay a penny of taxes and put Obama in office based on promises of "share the wealth"! It's not hard to figure out where their agenda lies or yours for that matter.

[SintonFan]

listening to you guys makes me think im watching Fox news.. LOL Facts are 78% of people feel like we should tax the wealthy more. look at the polls.

I actually leave Fox News on while I sleep. That way the brainwashing is subconsciously through aerial osmosis. ;)

[Black_Magic]

If the 1% have the right to rig the system in favor of them then the rest of the 99% have the right to sick it in thier arse when there is an election. if the 99% put folks in there that will make sure that the 1% pay a fair share of the taxes then thats democracy. You want to defend those wall street folks who are the main reason we got in this mess go ahead.

IMO only one thing is worse than screwing working class folks out of fair wages and public education. That is being stupid enough to be brainwashed by them and help them screw you too...

I believe everyone who works 40 hours a week and raises kids should MAKE ENOUGH to pay taxes... Right now the top 1% take it all and then gripe about the fact the poor worker does not pay FEDERAL INCOME taxes when its thier fault they dont pay the guys enough to be able to pay without being under the poverty level. Now thats a hoot!! First they screw you buy underpaying you, then they cry foul when you dont make enough to be able to pay an INCOME tax..To put icing on the cake, they also defend the billionares on wall street when people want to pass a law that says that those folks ( that are paying 17.2% in Federal taxes) should pay AT LEAST the same rate as the highest paid of thier employees...

Now you support Perrys plan to completely eliminate the capital gains rate on those folks which would mean they pay maybe 2% of the money they make in federal taxes????? wow!

[Black_Magic]

A poll just released by the spectrum group and the wall street journal states that 68% of MILLIONAIRS SUPPORT raising taxes on Millonairs.. SO , Why are you trying to prevent that?

[GrTigers6]

I actually leave Fox News on while I sleep. That way the brainwashing is subconsciously through aerial osmosis. ;)At least its " non bias" brainwashing:D

[garciap77]

listening to you guys makes me think im watching Fox news.. LOL Facts are 78% of people feel like we should tax the wealthy more. look at the polls.

I do not think they should tax them more! I just want everyone to pay the same percentage on what they make, lets say 18%. No loop holes! No more bailouts! If you make 1 billion you pay 18% on the billion, if you make $10,000.00 you pay 10% on $10,000.00.

[Black_Magic]

I do not think they should tax them more! I just want everyone to pay the same percentage on what they make, lets say 18%. No loop holes! No more bailouts! If you make 1 billion you pay 18% on the billion, if you make $10,000.00 you pay 10% on $10,000.00. That SOUNDS nice. BUT, the way thing are now it would be a massive increase on folks who are barely making it right now. At the Same time you would be giving the FAT CATS a huge tax cut. The reason you have a Progressive Tax system is because those at the top constantly are taking more and more and more of the pie and paying less and less to the little guy. The Fat Cats have bought washington and got them to rig it to keep it that way. In the 1950s the Top tax rate on the millionares was over 90%, and thats during the boom of our economy. Not saying go back to that but make those wall street bankers who pay the capital gains rate on the $250 million a year should be raised to the 35% income tax rate.. I dont get why folks want to protect folks who them selves agree that they should pay more....

[Farmersfan]

A poll just released by the spectrum group and the wall street journal states that 68% of MILLIONAIRS SUPPORT raising taxes on Millonairs.. SO , Why are you trying to prevent that?



Can't speak for anyone else but I couldn't give a crap about millionaires! I'm siding with what is just and what is fair! You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about successful people. you act like successful people in this country were MAGICALLY handed their success by some magic fairy and therefore OWE something to the rest of us.

You really need to get a clue!

"Most millionaires come from middle-class households, and roughly 65% have been wealthy for less than 15 years, according to a 2009 survey of high-networth individuals, published by American Express Publishing and Harrison Group.
They may not buy the 99-cent paper towels, but millionaires know what it is to be frugal. About 84% say they spend with a middle-class mindset, according to the AmEx/Harrison survey. That means buying luxury items on sale, hunting for bargains and even clipping coupons. In fact, affluent households, including those with income above $100,000, tend to be heavier coupon users than those with lower incomes, according to a 2009 study by Nielsen and market research firm Inmar."
3. . . . but I didn t get rich by skimping on lattes.

So how do you join the millionaires club? One way is to run your own business. That s how more than a third of all millionaires made their money, according to the AmEx/Harrison survey. Over a third had a professional practice or worked in the corporate world; only 5% inherited their wealth.

Regardless of how they build their nest egg, virtually all millionaires make judicious use of debt, says Russ Alan Prince, coauthor of "The Middle-Class Millionaire." They ll take out loans to build their business, avoid high-interest credit card debt, and leverage their home equity to finance purchases if their cash flow doesn t cut it. Nor is their wealth tied up in their homes. Home equity represents just 10% of millionaires total assets, according to TNS. People who are serious about building wealth always want to have a mortgage, says Jim Bell, president of Bell Investment Advisors. His home is probably worth $1.5 million, he adds, but he owes $900,000 on it. I m in no hurry to pay it off, he says. It s one of the few tax deductions I get."

http://www.smartmoney.com/spend/rip-offs/10-things-millionaires-wont-tell-you-23697/



New millionaires are being created every single day in this country. Only 15% of existing millionaires inherited their money. The millionaire club is growing at double digit rates in America right now. Everyone has equal access to this kind of earnings. Stop asking for the Government to penalize success so the unsuccessful can have a easier time of it.......

[catgut]

I repeat what I have written 1000 times: If the pay is bad, benefits suck, work conditions blow and they have to pay for their own supplies then kind of makes me wonder why 10K new teachers a year are coming out of college?

Thank God that teachers still care enough to give their best effort to teach kids. Otherwise, you might not have been able to write your reply!!!!!!!

[pancho villa]

Thank God that teachers still care enough to give their best effort to teach kids. Otherwise, you might not have been able to write your reply!!!!!!!

Farmersfan was born able to read.

[Buff42]

Can't speak for anyone else but I couldn't give a crap about millionaires! I'm siding with what is just and what is fair! You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about successful people. you act like successful people in this country were MAGICALLY handed their success by some magic fairy and therefore OWE something to the rest of us.

You really need to get a clue!

"Most millionaires come from middle-class households, and roughly 65% have been wealthy for less than 15 years, according to a 2009 survey of high-networth individuals, published by American Express Publishing and Harrison Group.
They may not buy the 99-cent paper towels, but millionaires know what it is to be frugal. About 84% say they spend with a middle-class mindset, according to the AmEx/Harrison survey. That means buying luxury items on sale, hunting for bargains and even clipping coupons. In fact, affluent households, including those with income above $100,000, tend to be heavier coupon users than those with lower incomes, according to a 2009 study by Nielsen and market research firm Inmar."
3. . . . but I didn t get rich by skimping on lattes.

So how do you join the millionaires club? One way is to run your own business. That s how more than a third of all millionaires made their money, according to the AmEx/Harrison survey. Over a third had a professional practice or worked in the corporate world; only 5% inherited their wealth.

Regardless of how they build their nest egg, virtually all millionaires make judicious use of debt, says Russ Alan Prince, coauthor of "The Middle-Class Millionaire." They ll take out loans to build their business, avoid high-interest credit card debt, and leverage their home equity to finance purchases if their cash flow doesn t cut it. Nor is their wealth tied up in their homes. Home equity represents just 10% of millionaires total assets, according to TNS. People who are serious about building wealth always want to have a mortgage, says Jim Bell, president of Bell Investment Advisors. His home is probably worth $1.5 million, he adds, but he owes $900,000 on it. I m in no hurry to pay it off, he says. It s one of the few tax deductions I get."

http://www.smartmoney.com/spend/rip-offs/10-things-millionaires-wont-tell-you-23697/



New millionaires are being created every single day in this country. Only 15% of existing millionaires inherited their money. The millionaire club is growing at double digit rates in America right now. Everyone has equal access to this kind of earnings. Stop asking for the Government to penalize success so the unsuccessful can have a easier time of it.......

Farmers Fan represents conservative idealogy well. Have you ever considered running for public office sir? We could use more folks like you in government.

[pancho villa]

Farmers Fan represents conservative idealogy well. Have you ever considered running for public office sir? We could use more folks like you in government.

Yeah him and Rick Perry could be 2 peas in a pod!

[Black_Magic]

Yeah him and Rick Perry could be 2 peas in a pod! yep and right now only 6% of republicans Support Rick:clap:. So he represents the views of maybe 3-4% of Americans.. Make sure thos taxes on the wealthy are kept low like they have been for the last 10 years so we can continue all the great Job growth.. Hey, at least 1% of americans are going great right??:clap: So we need to lower the taxes on the wealthy even MORE so things for them can get better.. Maybe it will Trickle down if we cut thier taxes to 0%

[Manso/V8]

Millionaires usually own more property, and likely pay more property taxes, which is where most of the funding for education comes from right?

[Black_Magic]

I dont get how you cant see it. 1) Corporate profits are at record highs now. 2) "Job Creators" or Fat Cats are taking home more of a percentage of the wealth or PIE than EVER before 3) Taxes are the lowest in the history of the country and have been for 9 years now. Where are the Jobs? why have wages fallen off for the other 99% over the last few years ( in reality over the last 30)?? If what you guys believe in worked ( Trickle down economics) why is everyone else but the wealthy not doing so good??? What we have now is HOOD ROBIN.. Take from the middle class ( cut education, medicaid, Police, fire, social programs, student grants ect) and give to the rich ( Tax cuts for the wealthy and big business)... what makes you think this thinking works if it has put us in this mess??

[Farmersfan]

Thank God that teachers still care enough to give their best effort to teach kids. Otherwise, you might not have been able to write your reply!!!!!!!


Wow! Just Wow!

Thank God GM assembly line workers still care enough to give their best efforts or we wouldn't have cars to drive!!!
Thank God Policemen still care enough to give their best efforts or we would be murdered in the streets!!!!
Thank God Mailmen still care enough to give their best efforts or we would not get our mail!!!!!

Get the point? Again you represent the entire profession of teachers as some sort of Grace from God and seem to think that without the current group of teachers we could not survive in this society. But that just isn't true! We couldn't survive our current social structure without any teachers for certain. If the present group of teachers suddenly didn't want to continue to do their job we would have 100 more lined up to replace them. Not a knock on teachers! It's a simple matter of fact. I respect teachers! But not any more so than I respect my mailman or a police officer. Everybody chooses to do a certain job at a certain pay scale. Everybody also would like to make more money. I don't blame teachers for that. What I do blame them for is acting like their profession deserves more money because nobody else is capable or willing to do the job. the truth is we have 1000s of new teachers coming out of college every year. Being a teacher is a good gig so everyone needs to stop acting like it isn't. To discount the fact that so many people seek to get into the profession we constantly get comments about how it's "A Calling" and "We don't do it for the money"! Except of course when the subject of money comes up!!! That's all I'm saying. I don't fault teachers for asking for more money. Just stop acting like society will stop existing as we know it if teachers aren't given more money. It's ridiculous! And if you are a teacher then thank you for what you do. I am also a public servant and will gladly accept your thanks for what I do!!!!

[Farmersfan]

I dont get how you cant see it. 1) Corporate profits are at record highs now. 2) "Job Creators" or Fat Cats are taking home more of a percentage of the wealth or PIE than EVER before 3) Taxes are the lowest in the history of the country and have been for 9 years now. Where are the Jobs? why have wages fallen off for the other 99% over the last few years ( in reality over the last 30)?? If what you guys believe in worked ( Trickle down economics) why is everyone else but the wealthy not doing so good??? What we have now is HOOD ROBIN.. Take from the middle class ( cut education, medicaid, Police, fire, social programs, student grants ect) and give to the rich ( Tax cuts for the wealthy and big business)... what makes you think this thinking works if it has put us in this mess??



"Hood Robin"? Seriously? OK, What has been TAKEN from you? Name me a single thing that has been taken away from you and given to the wealthy? See that is the problem with your thinking. The wealthy have also not been GIVEN anything. Perhaps what is taken from them is less than it once was it's still being taken. You are blaming the wealthy for your inability to earn more money! You are putting the responsibility of uplifting the poor, uneducated and uninspired masses on the wealthy. That is NOT how it should work. The responsibility for uplifting the poor, uneducated and uninspired masses lies directly with the poor, uneducated and uninspired masses!! NOWHERE ELSE! It's free in this country. Get educated! Get inspired! Get wealthy! But until you stop expecting other people to work hard to make up for your shortcomings we will never see eye to eye!

[Farmersfan]

I dont get how you cant see it. 1) Corporate profits are at record highs now. 2) "Job Creators" or Fat Cats are taking home more of a percentage of the wealth or PIE than EVER before 3) Taxes are the lowest in the history of the country and have been for 9 years now. Where are the Jobs? why have wages fallen off for the other 99% over the last few years ( in reality over the last 30)?? If what you guys believe in worked ( Trickle down economics) why is everyone else but the wealthy not doing so good??? What we have now is HOOD ROBIN.. Take from the middle class ( cut education, medicaid, Police, fire, social programs, student grants ect) and give to the rich ( Tax cuts for the wealthy and big business)... what makes you think this thinking works if it has put us in this mess??



And to be fair BM, I do see it! I see everything you are saying. I understand everything you are saying. My point is you are barking up the wrong tree in trying to fix it. It's wrong to hold the successful responsible for subsidizing the unsuccessful. And yet we already do it as a matter of policy now! But you want even more!

[WildTexan972]

Exactly right...the rich work their deals same as always, and rarely actually deal with the poor, except when the illegal maids and cooks are in the house...

it does not really matter how any of us view these matters anyway - left or right, rich or poor, crummy dem president backer or not - none of us will have an impact and Congress won't change things because THEY ARE THE RICH WRITING THE RULES....this President (and all those before) know they want to have the rules so they can stay rich, as does Congress, but if you spill out your class warfare drivel it makes you APPEAR to care and those weak minded lefties always fall for it...this was the Kennedy way - claim to care but protect your fortune started by your crooked Irish mob rum-runnin daddy and the liberal backers will never catch on



"Hood Robin"? Seriously? OK, What has been TAKEN from you? Name me a single thing that has been taken away from you and given to the wealthy? See that is the problem with your thinking. The wealthy have also not been GIVEN anything. Perhaps what is taken from them is less than it once was it's still being taken. You are blaming the wealthy for your inability to earn more money! You are putting the responsibility of uplifting the poor, uneducated and uninspired masses on the wealthy. That is NOT how it should work. The responsibility for uplifting the poor, uneducated and uninspired masses lies directly with the poor, uneducated and uninspired masses!! NOWHERE ELSE! It's free in this country. Get educated! Get inspired! Get wealthy! But until you stop expecting other people to work hard to make up for your shortcomings we will never see eye to eye!

[BEAST]

"Hood Robin"? Seriously? OK, What has been TAKEN from you? Name me a single thing that has been taken away from you and given to the wealthy? See that is the problem with your thinking. The wealthy have also not been GIVEN anything. Perhaps what is taken from them is less than it once was it's still being taken. You are blaming the wealthy for your inability to earn more money! You are putting the responsibility of uplifting the poor, uneducated and uninspired masses on the wealthy. That is NOT how it should work. The responsibility for uplifting the poor, uneducated and uninspired masses lies directly with the poor, uneducated and uninspired masses!! NOWHERE ELSE! It's free in this country. Get educated! Get inspired! Get wealthy! But until you stop expecting other people to work hard to make up for your shortcomings we will never see eye to eye!

:iagree::ditto:

Great post.


BEAST