Tim Tebow

[Txbroadcaster]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-silver_denver_broncos_quarterbacks_082311

From probable starter this year to now who knows

[Old Tiger]

Josh McDaniels set him up for complete failure and the lack of actual QB skills.

[trojandad]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-silver_denver_broncos_quarterbacks_082311

From probable starter this year to now who knows

i have no knowledge whether he could do the same in the pros that he did in college, but doesnt it seem like the pros so far have been like "if tebow makes it at this level itll pretty much do away with any wisdom we have about what it takes to be a pro qb?"

[Txbroadcaster]

i have no knowledge whether he could do the same in the pros that he did in college, but doesnt it seem like the pros so far have been like "if tebow makes it at this level itll pretty much do away with any wisdom we have about what it takes to be a pro qb?"

how do you mean?

[trojandad]

how do you mean?

the pros treatment of tebow reminds me of how the same pros treated bernie kosar when he came out of miami, according to the "pros" he had bad mechanics (threw sidearmed) and was FAR more immobile than a tebow, yet he led the browns to 3 afc championship games in 4 yrs....the rest of the league got on to the browns for giving up so much to get a hometown boy in kosar and were thinking with their heart and not their head....my point is sometimes the "pros" dont know all there is about judging qb talent, be it kosar or, possibly, tebow.....

[Txbroadcaster]

the pros treatment of tebow reminds me of how the same pros treated bernie kosar when he came out of miami, according to the "pros" he had bad mechanics (threw sidearmed) and was FAR more immobile than a tebow, yet he led the browns to 3 afc championship games in 4 yrs....the rest of the league got on to the browns for giving up so much to get a hometown boy in kosar and were thinking with their heart and not their head....my point is sometimes the "pros" dont know all there is about judging qb talent, be it kosar or, possibly, tebow.....

ahh yea i agree..throw in brady as well..difference is..kosar Brady and others have proven heir ability in the pro ranks..Tebow has not yet and by all accounts been terrible this training camp

[Roughneck93]

Getting out of Denver would be the best thing for him. I think his chances there died the day Josh McDaniels was fired.

[trojandad]

ahh yea i agree..throw in brady as well..difference is..kosar Brady and others have proven heir ability in the pro ranks..Tebow has not yet and by all accounts been terrible this training camp

i havent kept up with him but didnt someone on here say he had gone 6 for 9 in a game so far this season? if so, thats not chopped liver....like i said, one wonders if its the "pros" giving this evaluation or lay people.....

[trojandad]

this subject is close to home with me, as i was a 6'4" qb in a running offense in high school that carried a 60% completion rate and wanted to play college football instead of basketball but everyone said the same thing, "if you just didnt throw sidearmed"....then kosar won the natl championship his freshman year throwing much more sidearmed than i ever did 6 yrs after i graduated and the world now wanted sidearmed qb's....kosar won because of his brain, the guy finished two double majors by his sophomore year in school, he won because he used his noodle on every play and put the ball where only his people could get it, not because he threw a particular style, but because he practiced his style more than anyone in the nation, the same way he got his degrees.....i think tebow should have stayed with what got him his success, he was more confident with that....im bettin he let them get into his head with good meaning "advise"....

[Txbroadcaster]

this subject is close to home with me, as i was a 6'4" qb in a running offense in high school that carried a 60% completion rate and wanted to play college football instead of basketball but everyone said the same thing, "if you just didnt throw sidearmed"....then kosar won the natl championship his freshman year throwing much more sidearmed than i ever did 6 yrs after i graduated and the world now wanted sidearmed qb's....kosar won because of his brain, the guy finished two double majors by his sophomore year in school, he won because he used his noodle on every play and put the ball where only his people could get it, not because he threw a particular style, but because he practiced his style more than anyone in the nation, the same way he got his degrees.....i think tebow should have stayed with what got him his success, he was more confident with that....im bettin he let them get into his head with good meaning "advise"....

You keep bringing up Kosar( one of my fav qbs loved his style)..but that is a one in however many odds story..plus like you said Kosar used his brain, Tebow is struggling on coverage..in fact no one has even said his style of throwing the ball is the issue at the moment but it is the fact he is not picking up the coverages and make the quick reads in that offense.

[trojandad]

like i said, i hadnt heard anything on him this year, but last year when they drafted him all espn would run is all those pieces on how he had hired these qb coaches to get his throwing motion in line with pro qbs....think of what we would have missed if cleveland had done that with kosar....heck, he even tipped off defenses on when he was gonna throw by putting that one foot extra far behind the center, and yet could still beat coverages....

[Txbroadcaster]

like i said, i hadnt heard anything on him this year, but last year when they drafted him all espn would run is all those pieces on how he had hired these qb coaches to get his throwing motion in line with pro qbs....think of what we would have missed if cleveland had done that with kosar....heck, he even tipped off defenses on when he was gonna throw by putting that one foot extra far behind the center, and yet could still beat coverages....


I loved watching Kosar throw..looked like a whip being spun and unleashed.

[Farmersfan]

like i said, i hadnt heard anything on him this year, but last year when they drafted him all espn would run is all those pieces on how he had hired these qb coaches to get his throwing motion in line with pro qbs....think of what we would have missed if cleveland had done that with kosar....heck, he even tipped off defenses on when he was gonna throw by putting that one foot extra far behind the center, and yet could still beat coverages....



It's amazing how you keep bringing up Kosar as an example of disproving ideas about QBs that the "Pros" have. The fact is that "The Pros" are far, far, far more likely to be correct than they are to be wrong. But there are exceptions to every rule but using your logic would mean the rule couldn't exist because every single QB in college that doesn't get drafted could use the Kosar example. Or the Romo example! Or the Brady example! All the while ignoring the 1000's of example that the Pros were correct on.

Kosar is rated #41 all time in QB rating. (81.8 rating). Check out how 21 of the top 25 highest rated QBs in the history of the game are either still playing or have played within the past 5 years. It has to be due to all the rule changes because only a real moron would choose any of the current QBs (except maybe Manning or Brady) over a Staubach, Aikman or Marino. Yet there are a whole bunch of them higher rated than those guys.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

[Macarthur]

Look, his mechanics are awful, but that's not the worst of it. A guy like Koser did well because he was accurate. That is the most overlooked aspect to an NFL QB. Brees doesn't have the strongest arm in the league, but he delivers that ball accurate and on time. By all accounts, Tebow's accuracy is atrocious. That's generally something that doesn't get a lot better. There are some mechanical things they can tweak to help your completion %, but if you can't throw accurately, your time in the NFL will be very very short.

[eagles_victory]

It's amazing how you keep bringing up Kosar as an example of disproving ideas about QBs that the "Pros" have. The fact is that "The Pros" are far, far, far more likely to be correct than they are to be wrong. But there are exceptions to every rule but using your logic would mean the rule couldn't exist because every single QB in college that doesn't get drafted could use the Kosar example. Or the Romo example! Or the Brady example! All the while ignoring the 1000's of example that the Pros were correct on.

Kosar is rated #41 all time in QB rating. (81.8 rating). Check out how 21 of the top 25 highest rated QBs in the history of the game are either still playing or have played within the past 5 years. It has to be due to all the rule changes because only a real moron would choose any of the current QBs (except maybe Manning or Brady) over a Staubach, Aikman or Marino. Yet there are a whole bunch of them higher rated than those guys.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm Aikman is so overrated I'd take Aaron Rodgers over Troy any day.

[Txbroadcaster]

Aikman is so overrated I'd take Aaron Rodgers over Troy any day.

different Qbs asked to do different things..hard to compare.

[eagles_victory]

different Qbs asked to do different things..hard to compare. Mentioning Troy Aikman as an all time great is absurd.

[Roughneck93]

Who has the better career, at QB or another position, Tebow or Terrelle Pryor? Let's just say at QB. Both have been asked to change positions, so which one has the better chance at making it as a QB?

[Txbroadcaster]

Mentioning Troy Aikman as an all time great is absurd.

depends on how far up the ladder ur talking about..NFL QBs right or wrong has always been about the title and he has 3 of em..no he is not top 5 of all time or anything like that but he is a HOF QB which imo makes him an all time great

[Old Tiger]

Who has the better career, at QB or another position, Tebow or Terrelle Pryor? Let's just say at QB. Both have been asked to change positions, so which one has the better chance at making it as a QB?In college Tebow by far.....

[Farmersfan]

Aikman is so overrated I'd take Aaron Rodgers over Troy any day.



And you base that decision on what? Rodgers has a better QB rating than Aikman did but so did a whole bunch of QBs like Daunte Culpepper, Chad Pennington, Joe Flacco, Jeff Garcia, Trent Green, David Garrard, Rich Gannon, Shuan Hill, Marc Bulger,Jay Cutler, Marc Brunnell, and quite a few others. I'm not sure i would pick Akiman over Manning, Brady and maybe Rodgers if his career continues on it's current path. Again the question remains if you think these QBs are actually better than the Dan Marinos or Roger Staubachs of the world. I would be interested in seeing how all these QBs would rate with the new ESPN Total Quarterback Rating system. I do know that Romo is currently rated as the 4th highest rated QB in the history of the game in the old system and in the new system he has never been rated higher than #10 in any given season. His best season was 2009 and he had a 64.5 rating which was #10 in starting QBs in 2009. Career rating on the new system he rates 54.2. 50 is average! So I do think the NFL rating system is geared towards benefiting QBs in todays NFL far more than QBs 20 years ago. Comments?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6834507/nfl-peyton-manning-top-two-qbr-seasons

[Txbroadcaster]

And you base that decision on what? Rodgers has a better QB rating than Aikman did but so did a whole bunch of QBs like Daunte Culpepper, Chad Pennington, Joe Flacco, Jeff Garcia, Trent Green, David Garrard, Rich Gannon, Shuan Hill, Marc Bulger,Jay Cutler, Marc Brunnell, and quite a few others. I'm not sure i would pick Akiman over Manning, Brady and maybe Rodgers if his career continues on it's current path. Again the question remains if you think these QBs are actually better than the Dan Marinos or Roger Staubachs of the world. I would be interested in seeing how all these QBs would rate with the new ESPN Total Quarterback Rating system. I do know that Romo is currently rated as the 4th highest rated QB in the history of the game in the old system and in the new system he has never been rated higher than #10 in any given season. His best season was 2009 and he had a 64.5 rating which was #10 in starting QBs in 2009. Career rating on the new system he rates 54.2. 50 is average! So I do think the NFL rating system is geared towards benefiting QBs in todays NFL far more than QBs 20 years ago. Comments?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6834507/nfl-peyton-manning-top-two-qbr-seasons

I dont think the rating itself benefits this era as much as the changing of the game thru how offense is played now and the rules..in the 70's it was more a hand off the ball hand off the ball throw it deep hand off the ball type of game

now it is 4 wide short throws that the WR then takes another 20 yards. tons of throwing.

[BaseballUmp]

Tebow went 6-7 in the first preseason game, but it was the absolute worst 6-7 I have ever seen. Little dump passes and one decent throw across the middle. Then the play were they got 3 flags because he doesn't know how to check down his receivers and decides to run 5 yards then retreat and try to throw it again...as much as i like Tebow, he won't be a qb any time soon

[Farmersfan]

I dont think the rating itself benefits this era as much as the changing of the game thru how offense is played now and the rules..in the 70's it was more a hand off the ball hand off the ball throw it deep hand off the ball type of game

now it is 4 wide short throws that the WR then takes another 20 yards. tons of throwing.


makes sense! I also think the pass interference rules today are in favor of the offenses way more than they use to be. With all the protect the defensive receiver rules in place now I expect it will continue on this path. Used to be a major death wish to catch a pass on a crossing pattern because the defense would take your head off. Now even the "Small" receivers aren't afraid of the middle.

[Farmersfan]

I dont think the rating itself benefits this era as much as the changing of the game thru how offense is played now and the rules..in the 70's it was more a hand off the ball hand off the ball throw it deep hand off the ball type of game

now it is 4 wide short throws that the WR then takes another 20 yards. tons of throwing.



Also, If I remember correctly wasn't it a common practice that the D-lineman/linebackers engaged with a RB would drive the RB's nose into the turf before he would let him peel off and go out for a pass? Now I see the D-linemen get called for holding the RB if they don't him go out for the screen pass. Used to be once contact was made the guy was worm food...........................

[trojandad]

It's amazing how you keep bringing up Kosar as an example of disproving ideas about QBs that the "Pros" have. The fact is that "The Pros" are far, far, far more likely to be correct than they are to be wrong. But there are exceptions to every rule but using your logic would mean the rule couldn't exist because every single QB in college that doesn't get drafted could use the Kosar example. Or the Romo example! Or the Brady example! All the while ignoring the 1000's of example that the Pros were correct on.

Kosar is rated #41 all time in QB rating. (81.8 rating). Check out how 21 of the top 25 highest rated QBs in the history of the game are either still playing or have played within the past 5 years. It has to be due to all the rule changes because only a real moron would choose any of the current QBs (except maybe Manning or Brady) over a Staubach, Aikman or Marino. Yet there are a whole bunch of them higher rated than those guys.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

yes sir, for the most part, the pros have it right, we all agree on that.....people like kosar got through the small cracks the pros "superior" knowledge leaves open simply because he was drafter by th browns as a "favorite son" or else he wouldnt be #41, #141 or #1,041 on any list....the pros all had him panned as no where good enough for the pro game...ever stopped to think how many more qb's were panned because some people thought they knew it all about qb'ing in the nfl? many probably didnt have teams willing to give away tons of 1st round picks like the browns had to give up for kosar...they sat at home just because of the arrogance of a few....and dont forget, before people like kosar and flutie, many "out of the norm" qb's slipped thru the cracks in the college ranks as well, the arrogance was alive at that level....

and as far as a qb rating determining strength of a qb, get real....that formula didnt come down from mt olympus, it was a playtoy from the nfl...steve young leads that list of retired qb's, are you serious that you would use this as a yardsstick to determine whether youd rather have young over montana, unitas or staubach? and besides, you make my point for me, there are a TON of "pro inadequate" qbs that would have killed for the opportunity to be ranked #41 in the histroy of the nfl, even if in such an inadequate ranking system....

the pros have it down for the most part, but they have missed it as well....if tebow is that inacurate then they have it right with him...the word was it was his form, it was THAT arrogance i took exception to....nobody that ever played the game had worse form than kosar....God bless him....

[ziggy29]

Mentioning Troy Aikman as an all time great is absurd.
Troy Aikman is where "good but not great QB" meets "greatest O-line in history." Having Smith and Irvin didn't hurt either.

[trojandad]

Troy Aikman is where "good but not great QB" meets "greatest O-line in history." Having Smith and Irvin didn't hurt either.

i thought he was just good until he won a super bowl under switzer.....he jumped a notch or two in my book then....

[Farmersfan]

yes sir, for the most part, the pros have it right, we all agree on that.....people like kosar got through the small cracks the pros "superior" knowledge leaves open simply because he was drafter by th browns as a "favorite son" or else he wouldnt be #41, #141 or #1,041 on any list....the pros all had him panned as no where good enough for the pro game...ever stopped to think how many more qb's were panned because some people thought they knew it all about qb'ing in the nfl? many probably didnt have teams willing to give away tons of 1st round picks like the browns had to give up for kosar...they sat at home just because of the arrogance of a few....and dont forget, before people like kosar and flutie, many "out of the norm" qb's slipped thru the cracks in the college ranks as well, the arrogance was alive at that level....

and as far as a qb rating determining strength of a qb, get real....that formula didnt come down from mt olympus, it was a playtoy from the nfl...steve young leads that list of retired qb's, are you serious that you would use this as a yardsstick to determine whether youd rather have young over montana, unitas or staubach? and besides, you make my point for me, there are a TON of "pro inadequate" qbs that would have killed for the opportunity to be ranked #41 in the histroy of the nfl, even if in such an inadequate ranking system....

the pros have it down for the most part, but they have missed it as well....if tebow is that inacurate then they have it right with him...the word was it was his form, it was THAT arrogance i took exception to....nobody that ever played the game had worse form than kosar....God bless him....


I got lost somewhere. It looks like we are arguing the same thing. I also think the NFL QB rating system that has 21 of the top 25 QB in the history of the NFL as players that are still playing today or played in 2000's. There is not a chance in hell that all those players listed like Culpepper or Jeff Garcia are better QBs than Aikman, Marino, Staubach or even Kosar. That's why I brought it up. I think the new Total QBR from ESPN is more accurate even though it is loaded with subjective grading possibilities. But does anyone really not think that Steve Young's QB rating wasn't greatly boosted by Jerry Rice's runs after catch? Seriously?

[eagles_victory]

i thought he was just good until he won a super bowl under switzer.....he jumped a notch or two in my book then.... Only thing is you can argue that the 95 team had the grestest RB, top 5 WR, top 5 S, and greatest shut down corner of all time. Not to mention the offensive line.

[BEAST]

Only thing is you can argue that the 95 team had the grestest RB, top 5 WR, top 5 S, and greatest shut down corner of all time. Not to mention the offensive line.


All of that is true. But Troy was cool as any Qb to this day. He always delivered good catchable balls. If not, all that top 5 stuff would not be there on the offensive side.




BEAST

[eagles_victory]

All of that is true. But Troy was cool as any Qb to this day. He always delivered good catchable balls. If not, all that top 5 stuff would not be there on the offensive side.




BEAST Emmitt wouldn't be top 5 if it wasn't for Troy?

[BEAST]

Emmitt wouldn't be top 5 if it wasn't for Troy?


I was referring to the top 5 WR you mentioned. However, I could make a case that Emmitt might not have gotten all the yards he did if Aikman wasnt throwing for 250-300 per game.




BEAST

[eagles_victory]

I was referring to the top 5 WR you mentioned. However, I could make a case that Emmitt might not have gotten all the yards he did if Aikman wasnt throwing for 250-300 per game.




BEAST He wasn't his most average yards per game in a season was 215.

[Txbroadcaster]

He wasn't his most average yards per game in a season was 215.


Aikman averaged 229 yards in 91...223 in 93

he finished top 5 yards per game 3 times..finished top 10 4 times in passing yards but only finished top 5 in passing attempts 2 times..yds per pass he finished top 5 four times and top 10 7 times


dallas did not use an efficent style passing game of short passes, they threw the deep outs( consider the hardest throw for a Qb)..the deep slans, the post routes...yet Aikman was so accurate he made the passing game become efficent

Other thing...Aikman only got 11 years..if not for concussions he still had 3-4 years left