Best Lakers center all time?

[big daddy russ]

Shaq's retirement got me wondering about this. Opinions?

NOTE: This poll is meant to take into account entire careers, not just time spent on the Lakers. These are just the best centers who happened to play for the Lakers for a significant amount of time. For example, Abdul-Jabbar's and Wilt's best years were before they wore the purple and gold.


George Mikan--Greatest early NBAer. Physically dominant against his peers. Led the Milwaukee Lakers to the League's first dynasty, winning titles in four of the first five years of the 50's and three more in the late-40's for a total of seven titles during his nine-year career. Was a near-seven-footer with the coordination and skill of most six-footers of his day. Was an all-league first-teamer every eligible year of his career (All-NBL 2X, All-BAA 1X, All-NBA 5X). Sadly, the MVP award wasn't created until two years after his retirement, or he'd have plenty of those as well. Was the very first player the League adopted new rules for. He was just that dominant and far and away the greatest player in the NBA's early history. The AP backed up that sentiment in 1950, naming Mikan the greatest basketball player of the first half of the century. When he received that honor, he was only five years into his career. Largely forgotten in modern "greatest of all time" discussions, Mikan spearheaded the Lakers' ascension from a startup franchise in a podunk city to one of the two most storied franchises in league history.

Wilt Chamberlain--Most dominant player of all time. We can talk about his four MVP Awards, his single-season scoring mark, or the fact that he's a ten-time All-NBAer, but Wilt's best argument is the film. Was a 7-1, 275-lb incredibly gifted player who would've wrecked shop against any center from any era playing in an era when the average center was 6-9 and the tallest guys with his skillset were over half a foot shorter than Chamberlain. For an entire season, he averaged 50 points and 25 rebounds a game, and he did this after the NBA began adjusting the rules to limit Chamberlain. The NBA changed more rules due to Chamberlain's dominance than any other player in history.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar--Maybe the second-greatest collegiate player ever, "Sweet Lew" was every bit as dominant in the NBA as he was under John Wooden. The owner of numerous NBA records, the most notable of which are his scoring record, 18 All-Star games, and his six NBA MVP awards. Playing until he was 42, Abdul-Jabbar aged as gracefully as anyone to ever play the game, averaging over 23 points and 1.65 blocks per game at age 39. Just as incredible, he was still effective until the very end. At age 42 in his 20th and final season in the NBA, Abdul-Jabbar, whose body could no longer handle 30-40 minutes of playing time, still posted averages of 21 points, 9.5 rebounds, 2.3 blocks, and a steal per 48 minutes. If longevity is any indicator of greatness, Kareem's mark in the record books is only overshadowed by his Satchel Paige-like career.

Shaq--This guy's harder to talk about because of the lack of records, but he passed the eye test that so many fall short on. Much like Wilt and Mikan, he was simply the most dominant force of his time and completely unstoppable. The size, the weight, the strength, the quickness, it was a total package for the man who played his HS ball at San Antonio Cole. Led the NBA in scoring twice, field goal percentage ten times, one an NBA MVP award (and probably should've won a couple more), was a 15-time All-Star, and a 14-time All-NBA player. Started his career in an era of strong centers--guys like David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, and Hakeem Olajuwon--and deserves to be mentioned with or above all of them as one of the best ever. In my lifetime, I've only seen three men--Shaq and LeBron (no offense to Jordan, he didn't have the same size/strength/speed combination these two did)--who were so physically superior to everyone around them that even Hall of Famers look physically overmatched next to them. Shaq is on the same level as LeBron, Mikan and Chamberlain in pure physical dominance, and those are possibly the only four players in history with the pure physical strength, quickness, and explosiveness to dominate their peers like nobody else.

[coach]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Shaq's retirement got me wondering about this. Opinions?

NOTE: This poll is meant to take into account entire careers, not just time spent on the Lakers. These are just the best centers who happened to play for the Lakers for a significant amount of time. For example, Abdul-Jabbar's and Wilt's best years were before they wore the purple and gold.


George Mikan--Greatest early NBAer. Physically dominant against his peers. Led the Milwaukee Lakers to the League's first dynasty, winning titles in four of the first five years of the 50's and three more in the late-40's for a total of seven titles during his nine-year career. Was a near-seven-footer with the coordination and skill of most six-footers of his day. Was an all-league first-teamer every eligible year of his career (All-NBL 2X, All-BAA 1X, All-NBA 5X). Sadly, the MVP award wasn't created until two years after his retirement, or he'd have plenty of those as well. Was the very first player the League adopted new rules for. He was just that dominant and far and away the greatest player in the NBA's early history. The AP backed up that sentiment in 1950, naming Mikan the greatest basketball player of the first half of the century. When he received that honor, he was only five years into his career. Largely forgotten in modern "greatest of all time" discussions, Mikan spearheaded the Lakers' ascension from a startup franchise in a podunk city to one of the two most storied franchises in league history.

Wilt Chamberlain--Most dominant player of all time. We can talk about his four MVP Awards, his single-season scoring mark, or the fact that he's a ten-time All-NBAer, but Wilt's best argument is the film. Was a 7-1, 275-lb incredibly gifted player who would've wrecked shop against any center from any era playing in an era when the average center was 6-9 and the tallest guys with his skillset were over half a foot shorter than Chamberlain. For an entire season, he averaged 50 points and 25 rebounds a game, and he did this after the NBA began adjusting the rules to limit Chamberlain. The NBA changed more rules due to Chamberlain's dominance than any other player in history.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar--Maybe the second-greatest collegiate player ever, "Sweet Lew" was every bit as dominant in the NBA as he was under John Wooden. The owner of numerous NBA records, the most notable of which are his scoring record, 18 All-Star games, and his six NBA MVP awards. Playing until he was 42, Abdul-Jabbar aged as gracefully as anyone to ever play the game, averaging over 23 points and 1.65 blocks per game at age 39. Just as incredible, he was still effective until the very end. At age 42 in his 20th and final season in the NBA, Abdul-Jabbar, whose body could no longer handle 30-40 minutes of playing time, still posted averages of 21 points, 9.5 rebounds, 2.3 blocks, and a steal per 48 minutes. If longevity is any indicator of greatness, Kareem's mark in the record books is only overshadowed by his Satchel Paige-like career.

Shaq--This guy's harder to talk about because of the lack of records, but he passed the eye test that so many fall short on. Much like Wilt and Mikan, he was simply the most dominant force of his time and completely unstoppable. The size, the weight, the strength, the quickness, it was a total package for the man who played his HS ball at San Antonio Cole. Led the NBA in scoring twice, field goal percentage ten times, one an NBA MVP award (and probably should've won a couple more), was a 15-time All-Star, and a 14-time All-NBA player. Started his career in an era of strong centers--guys like David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, and Hakeem Olajuwon--and deserves to be mentioned with or above all of them as one of the best ever. In my lifetime, I've only seen three men--Shaq and LeBron (no offense to Jordan, he didn't have the same size/strength/speed combination these two did)--who were so physically superior to everyone around them that even Hall of Famers look physically overmatched next to them. Shaq is on the same level as LeBron, Mikan and Chamberlain in pure physical dominance, and those are possibly the only four players in history with the pure physical strength, quickness, and explosiveness to dominate their peers like nobody else.

wilt is the babe ruth of the nba...put him up against someone thatis his size and see if he can score 50....i highly doubt it

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
wilt is the babe ruth of the nba...put him up against someone thatis his size and see if he can score 50....i highly doubt it
I don't. He blew up 7'3" Kareem just like he blew up 6'9" Willis Reed.

[eagles_victory]

This just goes to show judging players from different eras is next to impossible.

[trojandad]

in their prime, wilt was the best, but he wasnt with the lakers during his prime....

judging during their laker days, kareem should take it.....

i REALLY would have liked to have seen mikan against any of these, all in their prime, i think he gets undersold on many accounts....

and with shaq's retirement, doesnt that highlight akeems success against him even more? i think akeem gets undersold greatly, he took all shaq's fouls and charges and gave it back....

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by coach
wilt is the babe ruth of the nba...put him up against someone thatis his size and see if he can score 50....i highly doubt it babe ruth hit all his homeruns on a huge field.

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by trojandad
in their prime, wilt was the best, but he wasnt with the lakers during his prime....

judging during their laker days, kareem should take it.....

i REALLY would have liked to have seen mikan against any of these, all in their prime, i think he gets undersold on many accounts....

and with shaq's retirement, doesnt that highlight akeems success against him even more? i think akeem gets undersold greatly, he took all shaq's fouls and charges and gave it back.... IDK....its close between he and Shaq.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
IDK....its close between he and Shaq.

you might be right, but it was my observation that the league changed their allowance for simply running over people in the paint when shaq came up, they still dont seem to allow others the same freedom they allow shaq, probably because they thought he was their marquee player after michael left.....

i think if shaq would have been under the same call guidelines as, say, kareem was, his game would have been substatially curtailed....if they had allowed wilt that same leeway he would have had 100 several times......

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by trojandad
you might be right, but it was my observation that the league changed their allowance for simply running over people in the paint when shaq came up, they still dont seem to allow others the same freedom they allow shaq, probably because they thought he was their marquee player after michael left.....

i think if shaq would have been under the same call guidelines as, say, kareem was, his game would have been substatially curtailed....if they had allowed wilt that same leeway he would have had 100 several times......


See I always felt Shaq was hurt by the officals more then helped..the perception was he is big and can take the physical pounding on the offense, but then when he was on defense it was omg look how that big guy is pushing people around.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
See I always felt Shaq was hurt by the officals more then helped..the perception was he is big and can take the physical pounding on the offense, but then when he was on defense it was omg look how that big guy is pushing people around.

just watch the final game of the rockets 95 sweep with them, the league didnt want shaq to get swept for anything.....shaq was knocking akeem 4 rows up while akeem had to adjust his game to all the touch fouls called against him early on when the magic had the lead....he went to completely shooting fall aways the second half and even ended with that famous 3 pointer where he hopped down to the other end of the court afterward....

i agree he got shafted in college because of his size, that was dale browns beef, but if he had been allowed the leeway in college he was in the pros, he might have left school with 4 titles.....he got MUCH better calls than others against him did....

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by trojandad
just watch the final game of the rockets 95 sweep with them, the league didnt want shaq to get swept for anything.....shaq was knocking akeem 4 rows up while akeem had to adjust his game to all the touch fouls called against him early on when the magic had the lead....he went to completely shooting fall aways the second half and even ended with that famous 3 pointer where he hopped down to the other end of the court afterward....

i agree he got shafted in college because of his size, that was dale browns beef, but if he had been allowed the leeway in college he was in the pros, he might have left school with 4 titles.....he got MUCH better calls than others against him did....

in the series both Hakeem and Shaq finished with 18 fouls..in the final game Akeem had 4 fouls, Shaq had 5...Houston as a team shot 29 FTs to Orlando's 18..in the series Houston shot 123 FTs to Orlando's 89

your right in that Shaq shot 42 FTs to Hakeems 36..but that is also a style issue..Shaq went to the rim..Hakeem was more about the moves and the fade jump shot

[trojandad]

i know the stats, the point was there are no stats for non calls, thats been the beef about every superstar in the league, they get the calls.....its just an opinion.....

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by trojandad
i know the stats, the point was there are no stats for non calls, thats been the beef about every superstar in the league, they get the calls.....its just an opinion.....

i agree 100% about the superstar calls..we dont know if both HAkeem and Shaq got them or not..again there games were so different so really hard to tell

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by trojandad
i know the stats, the point was there are no stats for non calls, thats been the beef about every superstar in the league, they get the calls.....its just an opinion..... so what are you complaining about if every super start gets non calls?

[trojandad]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
so what are you complaining about if every super start gets non calls?

yes, your right, im complaining, couldnt get going today without reliving shaq's football playing on the court.....im busted.....

i stated an opinion, no amount of explaining is getting it across obviously which probably speaks to my persuasive skills, im fine to move on......damnation......

its obviously my opinion that when two superstars meet, whichever one is stern's guy at the time gets the calls, that refs book made the same point, tho he was in prison at the time....shaq put chris dudley in the stands once and the league gave him a lesser fine than they gave rodman for throwing a ball in the stands...(whoa before you go off on that, i know rodmans rep, geez).....i think shaq got more breaks than anyone after jordan left, no stats shown to me change my mind about it......believe what you need to.....

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by trojandad
yes, your right, im complaining, couldnt get going today without reliving shaq's football playing on the court.....im busted.....

i stated an opinion, no amount of explaining is getting it across obviously which probably speaks to my persuasive skills, im fine to move on......damnation......

its obviously my opinion that when two superstars meet, whichever one is stern's guy at the time gets the calls, that refs book made the same point, tho he was in prison at the time....shaq put chris dudley in the stands once and the league gave him a lesser fine than they gave rodman for throwing a ball in the stands...(whoa before you go off on that, i know rodmans rep, geez).....i think shaq got more breaks than anyone after jordan left, no stats shown to me change my mind about it......believe what you need to..... must be why dirk isn't getting the calls! because stern hearts lebron more

[eagles_victory]

I agree with Terry from what I saw Shaq was hurt more by the officiating then helped. He was so big he would get hit a lot and go right through it and not get the call where as someone more slight of build would of fallen all over the place. I feel like the guys who are a little more slight of build and fall down and fall around a lot get way more calls then the strong and big guys who take the contact better.

You talk about the 95 finals Shaq had been in the league 3 or 4 years then and he was something the officials had never seen before I think when a different kind of superstar comes into the league it takes the refs a long while to really figure out how to officiate them (you could argue Shaq is the toughest guy to officiate in league history). Another example of this was Kevin Durant last year who shot so many free throws there was no way Duarant should of shot that many free throws, but like I said I believe it was just really hard for the officials to call his games because of his slight build and the way he played was unusual this year his free throw attempts were much lower as the officials adjused (that and the NBA was just trying to make their next big star) Also in that days NBA they probably did give Orlando calls to try to keep the finals from being swept not bc it was Shaq just because that is how the league operated and you could argue still does. Even though I think after the whole Dohnaguy sp? thing it has cleaned up quite a bit.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by trojandad
in their prime, wilt was the best, but he wasnt with the lakers during his prime....

judging during their laker days, kareem should take it.....

i REALLY would have liked to have seen mikan against any of these, all in their prime, i think he gets undersold on many accounts....

and with shaq's retirement, doesnt that highlight akeems success against him even more? i think akeem gets undersold greatly, he took all shaq's fouls and charges and gave it back....
Actually, this was meant as an "in their prime" poll. It's just interesting to me how many of the greats played for this one franchise.

I'm looking for best--not greatest--the guy who could dominate a game better than all the others at the height of his career. For Wilt, it was during his time in Philly. For Kareem, it was split between his time with the Milwaukee Bucks and LA. For Mikan, it was all with LA.

And eras are tough to judge across, so I usually just judge them against the competition they had.

Kinda surprised Wilt only has three votes.

[big daddy russ]

Shaq definitely suffered more from the lack of foul calls than anyone before him. Teams didn't care if they put the Lakers in the bonus, and because Shaq was so big, strong and powered through fouls, the little fouls were rarely seen.

And the craziest thing about Hack-a-Shaq is that the Lakers were always in the bonus but other teams didn't care. If he shoots free throws, the Lakers get points for every 50-55% of trips down the court. If he gets to the rack, they score for every 55-60% of trips down the court.

That's just insane. Teams had a better chance of beating Shaq if they fouled the Lakers into the bonus than if they just played good defense.

[Farmersfan]

Shaq was a offensive bulldozer. He fouls out in every 1st quarter if the refs enforce the Offensive foul rules. Watch his stats and Shaq would pull down a rebound and clear room with both elbows and go up and dunk the ball. He would push his way to the rim regardless of who was guarding him and he was rarely ever called for offensive fouls. The league made a huge push for offensive scoring early in Shaqs career because they believed offense sold tickets and defense was boring. Why else would they allow D. Wade, Westbrook and a thousand others to drive 30' towards the basket and jump right into the chest of a defender and draw the foul on the defender? The rules that are in place for under the basket defense is ridiculous in my opinion.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Shaq was a offensive bulldozer. He fouls out in every 1st quarter if the refs enforce the Offensive foul rules. Watch his stats and Shaq would pull down a rebound and clear room with both elbows and go up and dunk the ball. He would push his way to the rim regardless of who was guarding him and he was rarely ever called for offensive fouls. The league made a huge push for offensive scoring early in Shaqs career because they believed offense sold tickets and defense was boring. Why else would they allow D. Wade, Westbrook and a thousand others to drive 30' towards the basket and jump right into the chest of a defender and draw the foul on the defender? The rules that are in place for under the basket defense is ridiculous in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with the rules... the way they are enforced maybe but the rules themselves are fine with principal of verticality among other rules that help the defense. I like the way the rules are if you want to see 20 charges a game watch college basketball. Talk about bulldozing did yall see what Shawn Marion did to Mike Miller the other night lol

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
There is nothing wrong with the rules... the way they are enforced maybe but the rules themselves are fine with principal of verticality among other rules that help the defense. I like the way the rules are if you want to see 20 charges a game watch college basketball. Talk about bulldozing did yall see what Shawn Marion did to Mike Miller the other night lol Poor Mikey couldn't get a break. That was his best defense of the night and Marion just backed him over.