Is Michael Joradan overrated?

[eagles_victory]

I think he is the greatest to play just look at the numbers and I remember watching him as a kid. However, when he hit the shot against Utah I had just turned 10 years old and as a 10 year old you don't understand the game or the state of the league and all that stuff enough to really say for sure how great a player is. IMO you can't really understand the greatness of someone unless you follow the sport closely enough to understand the whole picture just not seeing a few of his games. For those of you who are older and watched most of his career what do you think?

Im not saying he is overrated but I have never understood why everything comes back to Jordan in the NBA unlike any other sport. You never hear in baseball people compare a young star outfielder to Barry Bonds or in football noone is comparing Aaron Rodgers to John Elway constantly when he wins or Joe Montana. I am not saying I think Jordan is overrated, but alll you ever hear about is the 6 championships and everything always comes back to Jordan and people ripping Pippen today because he said Lebron could be as good as Jordan. Everything is always about 6 championships, but they did win 55 games and push the Knicks to 7 the year after he retired and many say they were robbed of the series by bad officiating (I never buy the officiating excuse) and the Knicks took the Rockets to 7 in the finals.

I guess I was just wondering what everyone else thought Jordan and his career and how it is precieved nowadays by people and the media.

[TheDOCTORdre]

His killer instinct is what sets him apart IMO

[zebrablue2]

only dr. J was in his league( u would not have seen him play). MJ was the greatest!!!

[STANG RED]

I watched his entire career. No doubt he was the greatest! I wasnt even a Bulls fan, so I think I can be pretty objective about it. He just had the entire package, like none other I've ever seen.

[PPHSfan]

Who the Hell is Michael Joradan?

[coach]

Originally posted by zebrablue2
only dr. J was in his league( u would not have seen him play). MJ was the greatest!!!

the big O is better than dr. j

[Bearkat]

Michael Jordan is the greatest to ever play the sport. I think his attitude and his drive to be the best is what sets him apart. Understand that most NBA players have excellent athletic ability, like Jordan did. What Jordan had that the players today do not have is the drive, the want to, the need to be the best. Jordan didn't just want to beat Larry Bird and Magic Johnson, he needed to beat them. He didn't just want to win a championship, or multiple championship's in his case, he needed to win them. He knew what he had to do to be the best and he did just that.

[crzyjournalist03]

In the NHL, everything always goes back to Wayne Gretzky just as it does to Michael Jordan in the NBA.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by Bearkat
Michael Jordan is the greatest to ever play the sport. I think his attitude and his drive to be the best is what sets him apart. Understand that most NBA players have excellent athletic ability, like Jordan did. What Jordan had that the players today do not have is the drive, the want to, the need to be the best. Jordan didn't just want to beat Larry Bird and Magic Johnson, he needed to beat them. He didn't just want to win a championship, or multiple championship's in his case, he needed to win them. He knew what he had to do to be the best and he did just that. I believe Kobe has a very similiar mentality to Jordan and has the heart and desire Jordan did he just isn't as good.

I wish I would of been alive in Jordans prime or older I feel like over thelast 6 years I am somewhat of an NBA expert just wish I could of watched all the 80s and 90s.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by coach
the big O is better than dr. j

if milwaukee had played their hand right in 72, they could have had kareem, oscar and dr j....woulda added another ring to dr j....as it was, dr j started playing exhibition games later that year with atlanta and pistol pete...

i know ill get arguments and thats ok, but dr j was better than mike.....dr j was an all star at 4 different positions, one year at center over artis gilmore....neither michael nor dr j could beat bird or johnson in their prime, but neither had those kinds of teams around them....but in his prime jordan could have scored on j, but not inside....j could have scored on him both places....heck, jordan even admitted once he couldnt have stopped pistol, and pistol said in a pulpit once that dr j could score on anyone...

id start my team with dr j, for sure....jordan is a close second...

[coach]

Originally posted by trojandad
if milwaukee had played their hand right in 72, they could have had kareem, oscar and dr j....woulda added another ring to dr j....as it was, dr j started playing exhibition games later that year with atlanta and pistol pete...

i know ill get arguments and thats ok, but dr j was better than mike.....dr j was an all star at 4 different positions, one year at center over artis gilmore....neither michael nor dr j could beat bird or johnson in their prime, but neither had those kinds of teams around them....but in his prime jordan could have scored on j, but not inside....j could have scored on him both places....heck, jordan even admitted once he couldnt have stopped pistol, and pistol said in a pulpit once that dr j could score on anyone...

id start my team with dr j, for sure....jordan is a

close second...



You start your team with dr j and I'll start mine with mj. And my team will beat your team 9 out of 10 times

[BaseballUmp]

And I'll take Luke Walton, for the win

[Saggy Aggie]

Originally posted by BaseballUmp
And I'll take Luke Walton, for the win lol'd

[OldBison75]

MJ was a rare player that you just don't find in the NBA these days. He had as much natural athletic ability as any player to ever dribble a basketball. He had the ability to beat you in the paint, on the perimeter, from the boards, and in your face. Plus, Jordon was am excellent defender and never shied away from covering the better offensive weapons on other teams. Some of the greatest NBA games you will ever see involved Jordon against Johnson and Jordon against Bird. Johnson was a great player, but he NEVER was in the league with Jordon. Bird had the same type of drive and determination, but he lacked the pure athletic ability of Jordon. And, for you late comers, Kobe, LeBron, and anybody today would not be near the NBA star that Jordon was in his prime. I have no doubt that Jordon is the best to play the game in the last 50 years.

[eagles_victory]

I feel like the idol worship of Jordan has gotten so bad that if someone did ever come along that was better (which they haven't yet) people would refuse to admit it.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by coach
You start your team with dr j and I'll start mine with mj. And my team will beat your team 9 out of 10 times

not likely....people forget this mans game while in the aba, most vaught the last yeaars when he was transitioning to shooting guard....he had the skin between his fingers surgically separated more so he could catch the ball one handed easier while holding his opponent at bay with the other, an ability jordan had smaller hands for, even said once he didnt do dr j's windmill dunks because you have to be able to hold the ball one handed better than he could.....for an si article once dr j snatched a $100 bill off the top of the backboard, jordan was asked if he could do that and he said no, not THAT high....

dr j had the same finger roll as ice man george gervin which he used a lot against bigger men almost every game, jordan almost never used it....

the thing people forget about dr j's game is when he played he never argued fouls against him, he just rolled, barkley said when he was with him he could have bought himself many more stats if he just defended himself verbally, he wasnt a self promoter....that obviously carried over to when michael showed up, david stern started promoting michael as "the greatest of all time" and dr j didnt dispute it....if it had been reversed mj woulda spent millions promoting himself, he has to or shoe sales would have gone bye bye.....

a;ways remember, we say one player is the best, but listen to the players....when they named the 50 greatest players of all time, they polled them to see who they considered the best of all time, one player BY FAR was named, not mj, not dr j, not bird, johnson or even wilt or russell.....the greatest the most of them named was maravich....so the greatest players of all see the greatest player as far different than us fans or the media.....

[3afan]

overrated? no

[Txbroadcaster]

Yes he is overrated..does not mean he is not the greatest or one of the greatest...but people have forgotten without Pippen and Phil Jackson he was just basically a great scorer who could not win when it matter..when he got better players around him( Pippen being himself a top 20 player and top 10 defensive player) then he started to win.

The fans and media act like he carried the title teams on his back all alone but when that was how the team was built he was called soft and unable to win when it matterd..perception is always reality especially when it comes to the past.

[Billy_The_Kid]

I agree who is Micheal Jordan?

Wait, wasnt he a QB for one of them slow West Texas Teams?

[Phil C]

MJ was the greatest but LBJ is the latest with Durrant closing the gap.

[RoyceTTU]

Its rare in my generation to see someone so dominant and not be mentioned in the same sentance as performance enhancing drugs.

I don't know of a player in any sport that is as dominant. And please don't say lance.

[PPHSfan]

I've heard these things lots of times;

So and so is the Michael Jordan of this.

So and so is the Michael Jordan of that.

Never heard anyone say Michael Jordan is the Eric Clapton of basketball.

[Emerson1]

54 players who have earned more then Michael Jordan

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/711373-nba-power-rankings-shaq-and-the-top-career-earners-in-nba-history

[trojandad]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I've heard these things lots of times;

So and so is the Michael Jordan of this.

So and so is the Michael Jordan of that.

Never heard anyone say Michael Jordan is the Eric Clapton of basketball.

i personally dont think there has been an eric clapton of basketball yet....but thats just me....:dispntd:

[Billy_The_Kid]

LB James is an outstanding player and defintely best of his time so far. You can compare numbers, titles, and salaries all you want but nothing can compare to the respect and fear of Jordan.

In games that mattered such as important season games, playoff, and championship games no man was feared more than Jordan was!! He got it done when it mattered no matter what or who!!!!!

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by trojandad
i personally dont think there has been an eric clapton of basketball yet....but thats just me....:dispntd:

You're probably right.

[coach]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Yes he is overrated..does not mean he is not the greatest or one of the greatest...but people have forgotten without Pippen and Phil Jackson he was just basically a great scorer who could not win when it matter..when he got better players around him( Pippen being himself a top 20 player and top 10 defensive player) then he started to win.

The fans and media act like he carried the title teams on his back all alone but when that was how the team was built he was called soft and unable to win when it matterd..perception is always reality especially when it comes to the past.

i hope you arent saying pippen is a top 20 player of all time

[TheDOCTORdre]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESDFppbQ2zM&NR=1

1:07 mark in the video, I'm not saying Wilt is better, I just love this story

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by coach
i hope you arent saying pippen is a top 20 player of all time

I meant to say top 50 my bad typing to fast

[icu812]

Nope, greatest ever.

Best team I've seen was the showtime Lakers teams of the 80's. They would dominate the NBA teams of today, imho. The NBA is more watered down than is used to be. Celtics teams of that era were pretty dang good also.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by icu812
Nope, greatest ever.

Best team I've seen was the showtime Lakers teams of the 80's. They would dominate the NBA teams of today, imho. The NBA is more watered down than is used to be. Celtics teams of that era were pretty dang good also. I wouldn't call it watered down when you could of made a legitmate aruge for 7 teams to win it all coming into the playoffs this year.

[icu812]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
I wouldn't call it watered down when you could of made a legitmate aruge for 7 teams to win it all coming into the playoffs this year.

That is why it is watered down :doh:

[Billy_The_Kid]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
I wouldn't call it watered down when you could of made a legitmate aruge for 7 teams to win it all coming into the playoffs this year.
:thinking: :thinking: :thinking: :doh:

i tried to understand this post but its kinda like throwing fuel on a fire to put it out! DUH!!

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by icu812
That is why it is watered down :doh: How does that make it watered down how is parody ever a bad thing for a sport. It makes every round much more interesting.

[icu812]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
How does that make it watered down how is parody ever a bad thing for a sport. It makes every round much more interesting.

Never said parody is a bad thing. However, when you spread the talent around (watered down) it does lesson the quality of the top teams.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by icu812
Never said parody is a bad thing. However, when you spread the talent around (watered down) it does lesson the quality of the top teams. I think there is plenty of talent in this years NBA Finals. Most people actually make the opposite argument sayingif all the top talent is on a few teams it waters down the league.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Yes he is overrated..does not mean he is not the greatest or one of the greatest...but people have forgotten without Pippen and Phil Jackson he was just basically a great scorer who could not win when it matter..when he got better players around him( Pippen being himself a top 20 player and top 10 defensive player) then he started to win.

The fans and media act like he carried the title teams on his back all alone but when that was how the team was built he was called soft and unable to win when it matterd..perception is always reality especially when it comes to the past.
This.

I've always had a little issue with MJ's billing. I don't really have a problem with people saying MJ is the greatest of all-time, but it seems like people are saying that his level of greatness is almost unattainable today--and I do have a problem with that. I think if Kobe could've developed the strength and the post game that MJ had, he'd be right in the thick of things. I also think the fact that Kobe's been playing consistently for, what, 13 or 14 years without a two-year mental break hurts him as much as it would anyone else.

But the majority of problems with MJ's legacy, at least in my mind, comes down to the fact that Pippen's very underrated as a player. That guy was incredible and doesn't get his due for his role in those teams. People always say that he rode Jordan's coattails, but like EV and coach were saying, you don't lead a marginally-talented team (and that's being generous) to 55 wins without having something going for you.

All that said, MJ is still at the top of the list for anyone arguing greatest of all time.

Best of all-time is tough to gauge. Some people want to say it's the guy on the court who's better than everyone else. Some say it's the guy who makes those around him better.

My money's on Bill Russell as the greatest of all-time, and the only reason I say that is because of how much better the C's were with him than without him. I used to play pickup games with a guy like Russell. He wasn't a post, but like Russell he didn't have much of an offensive game, wasn't as tall, fast, athletic, or gifted as some of the other guys, but was always my first pick when we were running teams.

He saw the court so much differently than everyone else, always seemed to be in two places at once, and ran the offense incredibly. Didn't get burned on defense, was able to help WHILE he was guarding his guy, could box out two or three players at a time to give a teammate position for a rebound (and this guy wasn't very big--maybe a shade over 6' tall and skinny and weak), and on offense would rather make a pass that caught the defense out of position than a pass with a high possibility of an assist.

The type of guy who would've posted a line of something like 10 points, four or five assists, and a few rebounds in a full game, but he just knew where to put the ball, how to set up an offense, where each teammate could do the most damage with the ball in their hand (and how to get it to them), and ways to create mismatches where the opponents should've had a clear advantage--all within a few minutes of playing with his team.

Very high basketball IQ. Was virtually unbeatable in a team setting, even against Division I-level competition (no less than eight other guys we played with on a regular basis played major college hoops either at the time or within a couple years prior).

He was rarely the most talented/athletic player on his team, and NEVER the best player on the court (and these were just pickup games), but he managed to find a spot as a walk-on at LSU (before I knew him) and the only time I remember his teams getting kicked off the court was after running four or five straight games and just being completely winded. That was just like Russell, though Russell actually had some talent.

Wilt's probably the best/most dominant player to ever set foot on a court. Oscar is the greatest collegian of all-time and was probably the most complete player ever. MJ was a stronger version of Kobe who didn't develop an outside shot until late in his career, but still dominated an era with a combination of stats and championships like nobody before him. Dr. J could score any way you wanted him to. Larry Legend was Russell-like with a better offensive game. Magic was the most versatile player of all-time and maybe the biggest true point guard of all-time (can't think of anyone else taller than 6'8"). Just depends on your definition of "greatness."

Corey was the reason I'll take Russell over MJ in the "greatest" argument. But it doesn't mean he was better than Jordan.

Russell took an OLD Celtics team that limped into the playoffs in 1969 and won a championship with them. Russell retired following the '69 season and that same Boston team minus Russell finished second-to-last in the East in 1970. John Havlicek, Don Nelson, and JoJo White all played on that '70 squad.



Sidenote: There are plenty of current players with just as much drive/hustle/determination/work ethic as Jordan. Off the top of my head, Kobe and D-Wade. I could easily think of plenty more if I spent any real time at it. Anyone who says differently is wearing rose-colored glasses.

[big daddy russ]

By the way, I'm in no way saying that Russell wasn't athletic. I'm just saying that I have a deeper understanding of how he was always able to beat more talented teams because of Corey's ability to do the same.

[trojandad]

arent russell and magic the only two to win high school, college, olympic and nba titles?

id take russell to start a team anyday, i think big o was most rounded at any level, but pistolpete's numbers have to be acknowledged for best collegiate.....before the 3 pt line and before frashman eligibility hes still hundreds of points ahead of any of these others, with none close.....he was a heartless gunner but his numbers are completely stupid.....

[Old Tiger]

Isn't the late 80s where the stern began to make the league player driven? Michael marketed himself the best IMO and that is what created the whole aura of Michael Jordan


Jordan brand shoes
Be like Mike commercials
the HORSE commercial with Bird
and so on.

[bolshavik]

Is Michael Jordan over rated? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by trojandad
arent russell and magic the only two to win high school, college, olympic and nba titles?

id take russell to start a team anyday, i think big o was most rounded at any level, but pistolpete's numbers have to be acknowledged for best collegiate.....before the 3 pt line and before frashman eligibility hes still hundreds of points ahead of any of these others, with none close.....he was a heartless gunner but his numbers are completely stupid..... Pistol Pete is overrated in that season where he averaged 43 points a game he shot in the low 40s from the field. If you shoot all the time you are going to score eventually. Sure he was talented and not everyone could do it, but you list any of the great college players and let them shoot as much as he did they will probably average close to what he did also.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Pistol Pete is overrated in that season where he averaged 43 points a game he shot in the low 40s from the field. If you shoot all the time you are going to score eventually. Sure he was talented and not everyone could do it, but you list any of the great college players and let them shoot as much as he did they will probably average close to what he did also.

maybe so, but as i said before, when they picked the top 50 greatest they polled them to see who they thought the greatest player of all time was, not specific to college or pro, and over 60% said pistol.....magic did, bird, mj, isiah, barkley.....they know a little more than me......

and if it was so bad at 40%, why hasnt some lackey from some unknown college whose dad was the coach and allowed him to jack it up even come close to it.....dan issel said that he could guarantee you two things, his kentucky team could beat lsu any time but also if pistol wanted to score 60, he could do it anytime he wanted even if they played him 5 on 1.......:thinking:

oh, and 40% aint bad when most of your shots would have come from the current 3 point area.....they esimated the 3 pt line would have given him another 900 points for his career....

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by trojandad
maybe so, but as i said before, when they picked the top 50 greatest they polled them to see who they thought the greatest player of all time was, not specific to college or pro, and over 60% said pistol.....magic did, bird, mj, isiah, barkley.....they know a little more than me......

and if it was so bad at 40%, why hasnt some lackey from some unknown college whose dad was the coach and allowed him to jack it up even come close to it.....dan issel said that he could guarantee you two things, his kentucky team could beat lsu any time but also if pistol wanted to score 60, he could do it anytime he wanted even if they played him 5 on 1.......:thinking:

oh, and 40% aint bad when most of your shots would have come from the current 3 point area.....they esimated the 3 pt line would have given him another 900 points for his career.... He never won anything he was just a volume scorer sure he averaged 44 points a game but he did it on 44 percent shooting in college yea he was good really good but the greatest of all time he should be nowhere near that conversation.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
He never won anything he was just a volume scorer sure he averaged 44 points a game but he did it on 44 percent shooting in college yea he was good really good but the greatest of all time he should be nowhere near that conversation.

tell the all time greats, nobody coerced them.....

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by trojandad
tell the all time greats, nobody coerced them..... I know Charles Barkley thinks Jordan is the greatest ever he says it all the time.

[Bullaholic]

Pippen had this to say the other day on Jordan:

http://hiphopwired.com/2011/05/27/scottie-pippen-says-lebron-james-is-better-than-michael-jordan/

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Pippen had this to say the other day on Jordan:

http://hiphopwired.com/2011/05/27/scottie-pippen-says-lebron-james-is-better-than-michael-jordan/ lol where have you been that is all anyone has talked about for four days

[Bullaholic]

Obviously, only at the end of the thread---I only glanced at a couple of posts---you know I never read yours or Emerson's....:D

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Obviously, only at the end of the thread---I only glanced at a couple of posts---you know I never read yours or Emerson's....:D Sorry I misspoke I meant major media like all over ESPN and stuff not on here.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
I know Charles Barkley thinks Jordan is the greatest ever he says it all the time.

yes sir, your very right, but my reference was to the top 50 celebration and then he went with pistol......both of us know charles just talks anyway, and ive heard him say many times, especially after that one final where mj handed him his butt, that michael is the best.....

i admit to being star struck with pete, i attended his dads basketball camp the summer of my sophomore year, and they told us up front that pete would be busy and couldnt attend, but he showed up one afternoon anyway.....in his little 30 min exhibit he hit 4 of 6 shots from the opposite free throw line, but the amazing part was the second the ball left his hand, while traveling the 75 or so feet to the basket, he correctly called whether it would be good or not....his dad said he practiced 200 of those particular shots a day as a boy for his regiment....

when i got into college i saw petes game for what it was and started admiring people like the ucla guys, big o and others more and pretty much thought the conversation on pete was done.....until that top 50 award, and when the nba made that film and had each of those players picking pete as the best, i frankly didnt think isaiah thomas remembered pete, yet here they each were saying him, whether its really how they felt, or whether theyd change their minds later....

so i gave him another look on that basis and found that even red auerbach, after having him as an injured back up guard for a year, said if he had pete earlier in his career to teach him defense to go with his scoring skills that he could have been the alltime best, even riviling russell, which was high praise for red....

i personally overall dont think pete is the best, i still think its dr j, he just got caught up in a bad time with the leagues or there'd be more film out of him (and the aba didnt handle the media correctly) but i just sat up and paid more attention to the possibility of pete being the best after the surprise of hearing it at that top 50 award......those guys were the best at what they do and if they say he was the best to them, im gonna give it more consideration than i did....

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by trojandad
yes sir, your very right, but my reference was to the top 50 celebration and then he went with pistol......both of us know charles just talks anyway, and ive heard him say many times, especially after that one final where mj handed him his butt, that michael is the best.....

i admit to being star struck with pete, i attended his dads basketball camp the summer of my sophomore year, and they told us up front that pete would be busy and couldnt attend, but he showed up one afternoon anyway.....in his little 30 min exhibit he hit 4 of 6 shots from the opposite free throw line, but the amazing part was the second the ball left his hand, while traveling the 75 or so feet to the basket, he correctly called whether it would be good or not....his dad said he practiced 200 of those particular shots a day as a boy for his regiment....

when i got into college i saw petes game for what it was and started admiring people like the ucla guys, big o and others more and pretty much thought the conversation on pete was done.....until that top 50 award, and when the nba made that film and had each of those players picking pete as the best, i frankly didnt think isaiah thomas remembered pete, yet here they each were saying him, whether its really how they felt, or whether theyd change their minds later....

so i gave him another look on that basis and found that even red auerbach, after having him as an injured back up guard for a year, said if he had pete earlier in his career to teach him defense to go with his scoring skills that he could have been the alltime best, even riviling russell, which was high praise for red....

i personally overall dont think pete is the best, i still think its dr j, he just got caught up in a bad time with the leagues or there'd be more film out of him (and the aba didnt handle the media correctly) but i just sat up and paid more attention to the possibility of pete being the best after the surprise of hearing it at that top 50 award......those guys were the best at what they do and if they say he was the best to them, im gonna give it more consideration than i did....
I remember reading/seeing something about Pete's Hawks teammates when he got to the NBA and how they didn't like him. Remember one story about how one team pressed him with all their biggest players so he rolled the ball all the way down the court to a wide open teammate. The teammate watched the ball roll by.

[big daddy russ]

Abdul-Jabbar calls out Pipp. (http://www.kareemabduljabbar.com)


Originally posted by Kareem
You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known...
MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams. Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world — no question about that. But in terms of greatness MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.



Originally posted by Kareem
...Bill played on a total of 11 Championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or Lebron with the title of best ever.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Abdul-Jabbar calls out Pipp. (http://www.kareemabduljabbar.com) Everyone has an opinion. I guess it just depends on what you like or look for in a player.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I remember reading/seeing something about Pete's Hawks teammates when he got to the NBA and how they didn't like him. Remember one story about how one team pressed him with all their biggest players so he rolled the ball all the way down the court to a wide open teammate. The teammate watched the ball roll by.

yea, the teammates said it was because the white kid was making a mill a year and the most any of the rest of them were making was low 6 figures.....plus pete had a bad drug and booze problem then, but i sure would have liked to have seen the three preseason games that dr j played with pete and the hawks before he was signed with the aba....i bet that was showtime before there was showtime......

[themsu97]

the problem is this is subjective... and all ESPN does is try to say that the new "it" player is the best of all time... not sure but I am pretty sure that they had to change some rules because of Wilt... that in itself should define greatness... Michael is the greatest player of his era... pippen was just a huge part of his success, Scottie always covered the opposing teams best player, Scottie was a great defender... LeBron could not win on his own, neither could Wilt... James is now on a great team, win or lose in the finals does not mean he is not a great player and could be the greatest of his era...
back to Jordan, you think some of these players now would love to go against that Piston team? where not too many fouls are called? how many times do you think Barrea would make it to the rack against Mahorn? hell or Charles Oakley for that matter? that is why I will not judge across eras because now all major sports are trying to help out the offense to get fans in the stands... I love listening to Travis Rogers in Houston on 1560 the game, I feel he is spot on

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by themsu97
the problem is this is subjective... and all ESPN does is try to say that the new "it" player is the best of all time... not sure but I am pretty sure that they had to change some rules because of Wilt... that in itself should define greatness... Michael is the greatest player of his era... pippen was just a huge part of his success, Scottie always covered the opposing teams best player, Scottie was a great defender... LeBron could not win on his own, neither could Wilt... James is now on a great team, win or lose in the finals does not mean he is not a great player and could be the greatest of his era...
back to Jordan, you think some of these players now would love to go against that Piston team? where not too many fouls are called? how many times do you think Barrea would make it to the rack against Mahorn? hell or Charles Oakley for that matter? that is why I will not judge across eras because now all major sports are trying to help out the offense to get fans in the stands... I love listening to Travis Rogers in Houston on 1560 the game, I feel he is spot on Who ever won on their "own"?

[themsu97]

you don't watch ESPN then when you hear guys say MJ won on his own...
part of the legend that is MJ... I never said he did not need help... all the "great" players according to ESPN are all part of a great team... like they tried to tell us that Kobe did it with out Shaq... like Odom and Gasol suck?

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by themsu97
LeBron could not win on his own, neither could Wilt...

neither could Jordan, or Bill Russell, or Magic or etc, etc etc

[coach]

Another reason Jordan why Jordan is considered the greatest is he was THE best player on his team every year. You can argue the Magic, Bird, Bill Russell, whoever you want to compare him to that there has been a better player on their tea. For example, Magic in 1985 Kareem won the MVP. Wilt the Stilt won two NBA Championships and he was only the MVP once. Larry Bird won 3 Championships but Cedric Maxwell won one Finals MVP. Hell MJ has been to the finals 6 times and was the best lpayer on the court all 6 times.

Also, take MJ of the Bulls and take whoever you think is better of their team. I'm pretty sure the Lakers and Celtics would be better off than the Bulls. You can argue that scottie was a top 50 player of all time but Jordan made him that. IMO in order to be a player in the top 50 you would have to beable to lead your team to atleast one finals appearance. Scottie would not have been able to do that without MJ. Also, after a decade or so after they created that list im sure players like dirk, lebron, kobe, shaq, dwade have knocked scottie off that list.

And for those of you who think Pistol Pete is better LMAO. He wasn't half the defender Jordan was. Hell Jordan did what Pistol did in the 80's. He shot the ball 65 times a game. It wasnt until Phil Jackson got a hold of him and basically said share the wealth or you will never win.

Another thing I love about Jordan, and you can prob say this about alot of athletes is everyone tried to find a flaw in his game. They said he couldn't defend. What did he do? He worked in the offseason and became a 9 time first team all defender. They said he couldn't shoot and he developed the fadeaway and his 25 foot jumper. He found a way to get better every single year.

To this day I am still pissed off at his dad's murderer bc if is dad dosnt die Jordan does not go and play baseball and he prob. wins 8 or 9 championships in a row.

There is a reason why ppl wanna be like mike. He is the best plain and simple.

Now do I believe there is someone out there that can be better than him? Yes.

I thought it might be Kobe, but in this years playoffs he proved me wrong. Jordan would have NEVER gotten swept out of the playoffs like that.

I still think Lebron James has a chance. If he can get his first taste of blood (a ring) either this year or next. (Hopefully next) then i think Lebron can have that same mentality Jordan has about getting better each year and really focusing on his jump shot.

But until then, Mike you are still the best and quite frankly it's not even close.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by coach
Another reason Jordan why Jordan is considered the greatest is he was THE best player on his team every year. You can argue the Magic, Bird, Bill Russell, whoever you want to compare him to that there has been a better player on their tea. For example, Magic in 1985 Kareem won the MVP. Wilt the Stilt won two NBA Championships and he was only the MVP once. Larry Bird won 3 Championships but Cedric Maxwell won one Finals MVP. Hell MJ has been to the finals 6 times and was the best lpayer on the court all 6 times.

Also, take MJ of the Bulls and take whoever you think is better of their team. I'm pretty sure the Lakers and Celtics would be better off than the Bulls. You can argue that scottie was a top 50 player of all time but Jordan made him that. IMO in order to be a player in the top 50 you would have to beable to lead your team to atleast one finals appearance. Scottie would not have been able to do that without MJ. Also, after a decade or so after they created that list im sure players like dirk, lebron, kobe, shaq, dwade have knocked scottie off that list.

And for those of you who think Pistol Pete is better LMAO. He wasn't half the defender Jordan was. Hell Jordan did what Pistol did in the 80's. He shot the ball 65 times a game. It wasnt until Phil Jackson got a hold of him and basically said share the wealth or you will never win.

Another thing I love about Jordan, and you can prob say this about alot of athletes is everyone tried to find a flaw in his game. They said he couldn't defend. What did he do? He worked in the offseason and became a 9 time first team all defender. They said he couldn't shoot and he developed the fadeaway and his 25 foot jumper. He found a way to get better every single year.

To this day I am still pissed off at his dad's murderer bc if is dad dosnt die Jordan does not go and play baseball and he prob. wins 8 or 9 championships in a row.

There is a reason why ppl wanna be like mike. He is the best plain and simple.

Now do I believe there is someone out there that can be better than him? Yes.

I thought it might be Kobe, but in this years playoffs he proved me wrong. Jordan would have NEVER gotten swept out of the playoffs like that.

I still think Lebron James has a chance. If he can get his first taste of blood (a ring) either this year or next. (Hopefully next) then i think Lebron can have that same mentality Jordan has about getting better each year and really focusing on his jump shot.

But until then, Mike you are still the best and quite frankly it's not even close. Scottie led them to 55 wins the year after Jordan retired and lost to the Knicks in 7 who went to the finals (many say they were jobbed by the officiating)

Lebron just doesn't have the mental makeup for me to ever think he will be as good as Mike they are just different guys. People say noone was as mentally tough as Micheal I disagree I think Kobe and AI both had the killer mental approach Jordan did they just weren't as good.

[coach]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Scottie led them to 55 wins the year after Jordan retired and lost to the Knicks in 7 who went to the finals (many say they were jobbed by the officiating)

Lebron just doesn't have the mental makeup for me to ever think he will be as good as Mike they are just different guys. People say noone was as mentally tough as Micheal I disagree I think Kobe and AI both had the killer mental approach Jordan did they just weren't as good.

But ai doesn't like practice

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by coach
But ai doesn't like practice AI was the next generation Pistol Pete now it is Monta Ellis

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
Another reason Jordan why Jordan is considered the greatest is he was THE best player on his team every year. You can argue the Magic, Bird, Bill Russell, whoever you want to compare him to that there has been a better player on their tea. For example, Magic in 1985 Kareem won the MVP. Wilt the Stilt won two NBA Championships and he was only the MVP once. Larry Bird won 3 Championships but Cedric Maxwell won one Finals MVP. Hell MJ has been to the finals 6 times and was the best lpayer on the court all 6 times.

Also, take MJ of the Bulls and take whoever you think is better of their team. I'm pretty sure the Lakers and Celtics would be better off than the Bulls. You can argue that scottie was a top 50 player of all time but Jordan made him that. IMO in order to be a player in the top 50 you would have to beable to lead your team to atleast one finals appearance. Scottie would not have been able to do that without MJ. Also, after a decade or so after they created that list im sure players like dirk, lebron, kobe, shaq, dwade have knocked scottie off that list.

And for those of you who think Pistol Pete is better LMAO. He wasn't half the defender Jordan was. Hell Jordan did what Pistol did in the 80's. He shot the ball 65 times a game. It wasnt until Phil Jackson got a hold of him and basically said share the wealth or you will never win.

Another thing I love about Jordan, and you can prob say this about alot of athletes is everyone tried to find a flaw in his game. They said he couldn't defend. What did he do? He worked in the offseason and became a 9 time first team all defender. They said he couldn't shoot and he developed the fadeaway and his 25 foot jumper. He found a way to get better every single year.

To this day I am still pissed off at his dad's murderer bc if is dad dosnt die Jordan does not go and play baseball and he prob. wins 8 or 9 championships in a row.

There is a reason why ppl wanna be like mike. He is the best plain and simple.

Now do I believe there is someone out there that can be better than him? Yes.

I thought it might be Kobe, but in this years playoffs he proved me wrong. Jordan would have NEVER gotten swept out of the playoffs like that.

I still think Lebron James has a chance. If he can get his first taste of blood (a ring) either this year or next. (Hopefully next) then i think Lebron can have that same mentality Jordan has about getting better each year and really focusing on his jump shot.

But until then, Mike you are still the best and quite frankly it's not even close.
MJ's Bulls never won 40 games without Pipp (three seasons). If you want to dig a little further, his first 50-win season was Pipp's first year on the team, Charles Oakley's second. But to that same point, Pipp didn't have much of a role on that first 50-win team, it was more the emergence of Oakley as an enforcer inside and Sam Vincent's play at the point. It wasn't until the next season, when Pipp began to have a prominent role, that they started butting heads with the likes of the Celtics and Pistons.

I'll agree that Pipp's emergence was fueled by daily competition against MJ, but he also single-handedly led the Bulls to 55 wins without the help of Jordan.

And to that point, saying that MJ single-handedly led the Bulls to a title is discounting how good Pipp really was. His emergence as a stud with the handles of a point, ability to get into the paint, rebounding ability, and his ability to run the team at 6'7" is one of the reasons they let Vincent go. He didn't do any single thing great (like Jordan with the scoring), but he did everything at an all-star level. 20 PPG, 6-7 boards a game, 6 assists, he did everything well and was the lynchpin in the Bulls' 55-win season. Hell, during that second title run he scored 21 a game, dished out 7 assists, and grabbed almost 8 boards while nabbing 2 steals a game. Too many people forget that the Bulls were still an elite team without MJ. MJ was just the difference between being an elite and a championship team.

The closest anyone's ever come to single-handedly leading a team to the championship were Olajuwon with the '94 Rockets, maybe Rick Barry with Golden State back in the mid-70's, and then, obviously, the Lakers with Mikan.

The Jordan myth sprang more from his legend than from fact. He always had an all-time great during his championship years as a number two option.

Now do I think that, at that point in his career, that Jordan couldn't have led the Bulls to 55 wins? Absolutely. He developed plenty as a player and the Bulls would've still been a force even if Pipp had left and MJ stayed. But I don't think for a second that he would've won all those titles (if any) with Isaiah, Starks/Oakley/Ewing, and Hakeem around.

[eagles_victory]

I look at the 94 championship by the Rockets as Hakeem and a lot of role players. He averaged 27 9 and 4 in the finals pretty dominate but nothing just totally unreal. I think people will say similiar things about Dirk if the Mavs win it this year because he doesnt have any other stars around him but if you watch the games you know Dirk has had a lot of other players step up. Im sure Hakeem had the same thing from his role players even though I don't remember it. He did have the greatest role player in NBA history in Robert Horry.

[icu812]

Was living in Houston at the time and was a Rockets fan. The 94 team had some really good players, not superstars but very good. Besides Olajuwon they had:

Otis Thorpe
Vernon Maxwell
Kenny Smith
Robert Horry
Mario Elie
Sam Cassell

All those guys were productive offensive players and several of them were good defenders as well. Matt Bullard and Scott Brooks were also on the team.

[coach]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
MJ's Bulls never won 40 games without Pipp (three seasons). If you want to dig a little further, his first 50-win season was Pipp's first year on the team, Charles Oakley's second. But to that same point, Pipp didn't have much of a role on that first 50-win team, it was more the emergence of Oakley as an enforcer inside and Sam Vincent's play at the point. It wasn't until the next season, when Pipp began to have a prominent role, that they started butting heads with the likes of the Celtics and Pistons.

I'll agree that Pipp's emergence was fueled by daily competition against MJ, but he also single-handedly led the Bulls to 55 wins without the help of Jordan.

And to that point, saying that MJ single-handedly led the Bulls to a title is discounting how good Pipp really was. His emergence as a stud with the handles of a point, ability to get into the paint, rebounding ability, and his ability to run the team at 6'7" is one of the reasons they let Vincent go. He didn't do any single thing great (like Jordan with the scoring), but he did everything at an all-star level. 20 PPG, 6-7 boards a game, 6 assists, he did everything well and was the lynchpin in the Bulls' 55-win season. Hell, during that second title run he scored 21 a game, dished out 7 assists, and grabbed almost 8 boards while nabbing 2 steals a game. Too many people forget that the Bulls were still an elite team without MJ. MJ was just the difference between being an elite and a championship team.

The closest anyone's ever come to single-handedly leading a team to the championship were Olajuwon with the '94 Rockets, maybe Rick Barry with Golden State back in the mid-70's, and then, obviously, the Lakers with Mikan.

The Jordan myth sprang more from his legend than from fact. He always had an all-time great during his championship years as a number two option.

Now do I think that, at that point in his career, that Jordan couldn't have led the Bulls to 55 wins? Absolutely. He developed plenty as a player and the Bulls would've still been a force even if Pipp had left and MJ stayed. But I don't think for a second that he would've won all those titles (if any) with Isaiah, Starks/Oakley/Ewing, and Hakeem around.

I still dont consider Pippen an all time great...i will agree that mj would not have won all those titles without him.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by coach
I still dont consider Pippen an all time great...i will agree that mj would not have won all those titles without him. Rather he was an all time great or not at the time he was a top 5 player in the league for several seasons.

This is the play that kept Scottie from a shot at the finals without Jordan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4WjOUXZr7Q

[coach]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Rather he was an all time great or not at the time he was a top 5 player in the league for several seasons.

This is the play that kept Scottie from a shot at the finals without Jordan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4WjOUXZr7Q

top 5 for several years...i dont thinkso....

jordan
hakeem
isaih thomas
clyde drexler
charles barkley
patrick ewing
karl malone
john stockton
shaq



those are just a few that were better than pippen durin his time in the nba

[eagles_victory]

All NBA first team 1994-1996. Both years Jordan wasn't there for the full season Mr. Pippen stepped up and was first team All NBA not to mention 8 straight first team all defenses.

You underrate the fact that Pippen is considered one of the greatest perimeter defenders in league history.

[icu812]

Originally posted by coach
top 5 for several years...i dont thinkso....

jordan
hakeem
isaih thomas
clyde drexler
charles barkley
patrick ewing
karl malone
john stockton
shaq



those are just a few that were better than pippen durin his time in the nba

Of the players who played at least 5 yrs. in the 90's I'd rank em:

MJ
H Olajuwon
J Stockton
C Barkley
D Robinson
C Malone
S O'Neil
P Ewing
S Pippen
G Hill
R Miller

others who might or might not have played 5 seasons in the 90's:

G Payton
S Kemp
T Hardaway
A Iverson
A Morning
C Webber
D Wilkens
D Johnson
C Drexler
J Dumars
I Thomas

Pippen was a great defender and all around player. He could do it all. However, in my opinion at no point in his career was he ever a top 5 player in the league. Top 10 player, yes depending on the year. The fact that MJ completely overshadowed an outstanding player like Pippen just tells you how great MJ was. Kobe in his prime is the closest there has been and he wasn't all that close.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
I still dont consider Pippen an all time great...i will agree that mj would not have won all those titles without him.
Besides Larry Bird, what SF/off-post forwards would you rank ahead of him?

Here's a good list to get you started:

Elgin Baylor (sure, he was an old school forward, but he had more of a perimeter game than one where he set up in the paint)
Dominique Wilkins
Rick Barry
Dr. J
John Havlicek

I'd have him fourth on that list, behind Bird, Havlicek, and Erving. Him, Drexler, and Grant Hill were easily the best SF's in the league during 90's (apologies to Reggie Miller and Chris Mullin), and Pipp defined the position of point forward. Out of these players, only Drexler was a better scorer and nobody was a better defender, rebounder, or had better handles.

Don't discount Pipp's greatness because of the fact that for two decades, ESPN and the NBA have force fed you that Jordan single-handedly took the Bulls to the promised land. Those of us who watched those Bulls on a regular basis saw a different story.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by icu812
C Malone

Hmm he couldn't be better than Pippen I have never even heard of C Malone.

[TheDOCTORdre]

Originally posted by coach
I still dont consider Pippen an all time great...i will agree that mj would not have won all those titles without him.

your vote doesn't count though, Pippen was voted one of the 50 greatest NBA players of all time

http://www.nba.com/history/players/50greatest.html

[wimbo_pro]

Hey guys...good to see you all again!

I guess I would have to go with Jordon as well, but lets not forget that there is one player who actually CHANGED the rules of the game due to his size and talent...and that was Wilt-the-Stilt Chamberlain. No other player can say that.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
Hey guys...good to see you all again!

I guess I would have to go with Jordon as well, but lets not forget that there is one player who actually CHANGED the rules of the game due to his size and talent...and that was Wilt-the-Stilt Chamberlain. No other player can say that.

WIMBO!!..how are things

Dont forget Mikan was a rule changer as well including widening the lane from 6 feet to 12 feet

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
WIMBO!!..how are things

Dont forget Mikan was a rule changer as well including widening the lane from 6 feet to 12 feet

I am good TxBrstr....you? And good point...good point.

[coach]

Hell roy Williams was a rule changer. Does that make him the greates safety of all time. Jordan has 6 ships with 6 MVPs AND THAT'S THE ONLY ARGUMENT I NEED SHAWN!

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by coach
Hell roy Williams was a rule changer. Does that make him the greates safety of all time. Jordan has 6 ships with 6 MVPs AND THAT'S THE ONLY ARGUMENT I NEED SHAWN!

Being a rule changer in itself...no. But add to it what Chamberlian did, and I think he is in the top 3 for sure. Like I said, I would have to vote for Jordon over all.

What rules did Roy Williams change?

[coach]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
Being a rule changer in itself...no. But add to it what Chamberlian did, and I think he is in the top 3 for sure. Like I said, I would have to vote for Jordon over all.

What rules did Roy Williams change?

horse collar lol

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by coach
horse collar lol

LOL..good lord...

[trojandad]

Originally posted by coach
horse collar lol

if roy williams caused them to change the dimensions on the field like wilt did on the court, id vote for him all time safety....

[big daddy russ]

I was getting a little off-topic on some other threads, so I figured I'd revive this one.

I definitely think Michael Jordan's overrated. I think he came along at the perfect time...just after the Magic/Bird rivalry breathed life into league that was the equivalent of the MLS of the 1970's and turned it into the NBA that we know today, and just before complete tabloid journalism in sports.

I think that he was an all-time great who played at a level that many guys had never seen in their lives, strung together one three-peat followed a few years later by another. Athletically, he was all the best of Vince Carter mixed with all the best of Ron Artest. The strength, athleticism, explosiveness, and then some. He had a drive that few people possess and a flair that people loved to watch for all the same reasons that Vince made Canadian basketball watchable in the late-90's and early-00's.

And David Stern, not wanting the league to fall back into mediocrity, capitalized on all this. Here he was, staring at an all-time great on the level of Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, and Bill Russell with more flair than any of them. A guy who was as-, if not more-, watchable than Pistol Pete, as athletic as Dr. J, and whose greatness led his teams to six championships.

Stern made Jordan the icon of the league. As Magic's career was winding down and Bird's back was giving out on him, MJ became the player that took the place of both of them and his legend took off. Magic himself called Jordan the greatest of all-time, not to mention Charles Barkley, one of the greatest posts of all-time.

He was dubbed "the greatest" by some esteemed peers and was simultaneously the most famous person on the planet.

But how many journalists hounded Jordan after his extramarital affairs came to light? How many of you even knew that was ever a story? To that same point, how many people will know about Tiger Woods' extramarital affairs going forward?

I don't remember exactly when it was, early-90's or late-80's maybe, but somewhere in the frame of time, Sportscenter went from a 30-minute program to an hour-long program. I still remember watching the first hour-long Sportscenter one night (back then, it was recorded at night). Then, as time went on and Sportscenter became more culturally significant, it expanded from a couple shows between 6 and 9 AM along with its late-night slot to extended times with extended coverage, daily updates, and several crews that worked the various shifts.

Jordan was a bit of sleazeball. He cheated on his wife. Repeatedly. He punched teammates (an almost-universally well-liked guy, at that) in practice. He was crotchety, he was disliked by half the members of the media, and if it wasn't for Bill Wennington he may not have had a team to follow him.

When his career began, Sportscenter was watched by a few sports junkie and some nerdy little sports junkie kid from Ingleside, TX who woke up at 5:30 so I could grab breakfast and get ready in time to catch Sportscenter and see how my Blue Jays were playing (one of the reasons I wound up going into sportscasting). It was only 30 minutes long and had just enough time to cover the bullets, the scores, and the highlights. Get in, run a couple minutes of highlights, get out. Show a graphic of the league leaders, then the show's over. Back then, most traditional news programming thought that 30 minutes was too long for a sports show, so when ESPN upped its flagship to an hour, traditional news anchors went into seizures.

ESPN didn't really know what to cover with all this additional time, so they went to talking a little more. Because of this, Jordan's legend grew. Then Jordan retired. Then ESPN discovered that sleaze sells.

I honestly don't think that anyone's "wrong" for saying that Jordan's the best player ever. He very well could be, and even though I have Bill Russell ranked ahead of him, if God came to me in a vision and told me that MJ was "greater" than Russell, I'd buy it pretty quickly.

I just don't think that Jordan the person can live up to Jordan the myth. When you have young people like coach who don't believe that Pippen is an all-time great and that Jordan won those championships by himself, it shows a disconnect between the legends that are told and the realities that are now easily able to find with the click of your mouse.

We've been conditioned to accept the fact that Jordan's the greatest, and most people are very conditioned. When your average couch potato who never played sports says Michael's the best player ever, nobody questions him. But when Tex Winter, the architect of the triangle offense and "offensive coordinator" for both Jordan's Bulls and Kobe's Lakers calls Kobe the better player, we immediately dismiss it.

What's wrong with that picture?

The problem is we have Magic, Barkley, and a few other players who immediately proclaim Jordan the king, that he was a guy that could do no wrong, and that nobody will ever live up to his greatness. Meanwhile, Red Auerbach, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, KC Jones, Wilt Chamberlain, and quite a few of the old school guys refuse to give MJ the crown.

And because those old school guys can't decide between guys like Wilt, Russell, and the Big O, we think there's some sort of consensus that MJ's the greatest player ever.

So let's dispel the rumors about Jordan and get to the facts, then compare his career with that of others...

-Pippen led HIS Bulls (sans Jordan) to 55 wins with similar role players against better competition than the NBA lEast that LeBron led his Cavs to. We can say, pretty assuredly, that Pippen was as much a difference-maker as LeBron and more than D-Wade (who has never made it out of the first round without another top-tier star, even though he had an effective, though not top-tier, Shaquille O'Neal in his later years and a Shawn Marion in his prime). But nobody would believe that Pippen was really that great of a winner because all his championships came with Jordan, and we've been told all this time that Jordan won all those championships by himself. Right?

-MJ was a leader at times, a divider at times. Let not forget that. Bill Wennington was the second-best pickup the Bulls ever made (behind Pipp). He was the glue guy that pulled the Bulls together and could use humor to balance out Jordan's fire. Jordan, remember, is the same guy that punched Steve Kerr in the face. The same Steve Kerr that went around starting Bible studies, giving his testimony as a Christian, and driving daggers in the hearts of Jazz fans worldwide.

-The reasons Jordan was such a divider was the same reasons he was so clutch. He craved competition and strived to be the best, so he was off his rocker when he wasn't playing, but poised at the end of a tight game.

-Let's just go ahead and make the statement: Jordan would've never won those titles without Pippen. And it's rare that a guard-led team is so dominant because of their place, which makes the Jordan/Pippen combo all that much more impressive. Just like the Wade/LeBron combo.

-There are players that have come through the league that are better than Jordan. But he's considered the "greatest," and that's a key difference. Like I said, Tex Winter swears up and down that the only way in which Kobe is less of a player than Jordan is his post game and that Kobe's the "better" player. But Kobe's always been a marksman from three, something that Jordan developed later in his career, but never really was considered a true threat from long range. Other than that, they're eerily similar and, IMO, a lot closer in "greatness" than anyone wants to give them credit for. Kobe, after all, was the guy that went off for 60 a game for a little while to will the Lakers into the playoffs. That was about as impressive a feat as I've ever seen.

-In the end, I care more about win differential than points per game. That shows more of a player's impact on the game than the stat sheet. D-Wade can turn a 15-win team into a 40-win team. Pippen, Kobe and LeBron turn a 15-win team into a 50-win team that were first- or second-round exits (averaging out because of the quality of competition each had to play). Jordan probably turned a 15-win team into a 55-win second-round team. Bill Russell turned a 15-win team into a championship team. Literally. He retired after Boston won '69 Finals. The following season, with the exact same supporting cast minus Russell and the same scoring leader (all-time great John Havlicek), The Celtics stumbled to the second-worst record in the league. There's my argument for greatness, and he never even scored 20 a game through an entire season.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I was getting a little off-topic on some other threads, so I figured I'd revive this one.

I definitely think Michael Jordan's overrated. I think he came along at the perfect time...just after the Magic/Bird rivalry breathed life into league that was the equivalent of the MLS of the 1970's and turned it into the NBA that we know today, and just before complete tabloid journalism in sports.

I think that he was an all-time great who played at a level that many guys had never seen in their lives, strung together one three-peat followed a few years later by another. Athletically, he was all the best of Vince Carter mixed with all the best of Ron Artest. The strength, athleticism, explosiveness, and then some. He had a drive that few people possess and a flair that people loved to watch for all the same reasons that Vince made Canadian basketball watchable in the late-90's and early-00's.

And David Stern, not wanting the league to fall back into mediocrity, capitalized on all this. Here he was, staring at an all-time great on the level of Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, and Bill Russell with more flair than any of them. A guy who was as-, if not more-, watchable than Pistol Pete, as athletic as Dr. J, and whose greatness led his teams to six championships.

Stern made Jordan the icon of the league. As Magic's career was winding down and Bird's back was giving out on him, MJ became the player that took the place of both of them and his legend took off. Magic himself called Jordan the greatest of all-time, not to mention Charles Barkley, one of the greatest posts of all-time.

He was dubbed "the greatest" by some esteemed peers and was simultaneously the most famous person on the planet.

But how many journalists hounded Jordan after his extramarital affairs came to light? How many of you even knew that was ever a story? To that same point, how many people will know about Tiger Woods' extramarital affairs going forward?

I don't remember exactly when it was, early-90's or late-80's maybe, but somewhere in the frame of time, Sportscenter went from a 30-minute program to an hour-long program. I still remember watching the first hour-long Sportscenter one night (back then, it was recorded at night). Then, as time went on and Sportscenter became more culturally significant, it expanded from a couple shows between 6 and 9 AM along with its late-night slot to extended times with extended coverage, daily updates, and several crews that worked the various shifts.

Jordan was a bit of sleazeball. He cheated on his wife. Repeatedly. He punched teammates (an almost-universally well-liked guy, at that) in practice. He was crotchety, he was disliked by half the members of the media, and if it wasn't for Bill Wennington he may not have had a team to follow him.

When his career began, Sportscenter was watched by a few sports junkie and some nerdy little sports junkie kid from Ingleside, TX who woke up at 5:30 so I could grab breakfast and get ready in time to catch Sportscenter and see how my Blue Jays were playing (one of the reasons I wound up going into sportscasting). It was only 30 minutes long and had just enough time to cover the bullets, the scores, and the highlights. Get in, run a couple minutes of highlights, get out. Show a graphic of the league leaders, then the show's over. Back then, most traditional news programming thought that 30 minutes was too long for a sports show, so when ESPN upped its flagship to an hour, traditional news anchors went into seizures.

ESPN didn't really know what to cover with all this additional time, so they went to talking a little more. Because of this, Jordan's legend grew. Then Jordan retired. Then ESPN discovered that sleaze sells.

I honestly don't think that anyone's "wrong" for saying that Jordan's the best player ever. He very well could be, and even though I have Bill Russell ranked ahead of him, if God came to me in a vision and told me that MJ was "greater" than Russell, I'd buy it pretty quickly.

I just don't think that Jordan the person can live up to Jordan the myth. When you have young people like coach who don't believe that Pippen is an all-time great and that Jordan won those championships by himself, it shows a disconnect between the legends that are told and the realities that are now easily able to find with the click of your mouse.

We've been conditioned to accept the fact that Jordan's the greatest, and most people are very conditioned. When your average couch potato who never played sports says Michael's the best player ever, nobody questions him. But when Tex Winter, the architect of the triangle offense and "offensive coordinator" for both Jordan's Bulls and Kobe's Lakers calls Kobe the better player, we immediately dismiss it.

What's wrong with that picture?

The problem is we have Magic, Barkley, and a few other players who immediately proclaim Jordan the king, that he was a guy that could do no wrong, and that nobody will ever live up to his greatness. Meanwhile, Red Auerbach, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, KC Jones, Wilt Chamberlain, and quite a few of the old school guys refuse to give MJ the crown.

And because those old school guys can't decide between guys like Wilt, Russell, and the Big O, we think there's some sort of consensus that MJ's the greatest player ever.

So let's dispel the rumors about Jordan and get to the facts, then compare his career with that of others...

-Pippen led HIS Bulls (sans Jordan) to 55 wins with similar role players against better competition than the NBA lEast that LeBron led his Cavs to. We can say, pretty assuredly, that Pippen was as much a difference-maker as LeBron and more than D-Wade (who has never made it out of the first round without another top-tier star, even though he had an effective, though not top-tier, Shaquille O'Neal in his later years and a Shawn Marion in his prime). But nobody would believe that Pippen was really that great of a winner because all his championships came with Jordan, and we've been told all this time that Jordan won all those championships by himself. Right?

-MJ was a leader at times, a divider at times. Let not forget that. Bill Wennington was the second-best pickup the Bulls ever made (behind Pipp). He was the glue guy that pulled the Bulls together and could use humor to balance out Jordan's fire. Jordan, remember, is the same guy that punched Steve Kerr in the face. The same Steve Kerr that went around starting Bible studies, giving his testimony as a Christian, and driving daggers in the hearts of Jazz fans worldwide.

-The reasons Jordan was such a divider was the same reasons he was so clutch. He craved competition and strived to be the best, so he was off his rocker when he wasn't playing, but poised at the end of a tight game.

-Let's just go ahead and make the statement: Jordan would've never won those titles without Pippen. And it's rare that a guard-led team is so dominant because of their place, which makes the Jordan/Pippen combo all that much more impressive. Just like the Wade/LeBron combo.

-There are players that have come through the league that are better than Jordan. But he's considered the "greatest," and that's a key difference. Like I said, Tex Winter swears up and down that the only way in which Kobe is less of a player than Jordan is his post game and that Kobe's the "better" player. But Kobe's always been a marksman from three, something that Jordan developed later in his career, but never really was considered a true threat from long range. Other than that, they're eerily similar and, IMO, a lot closer in "greatness" than anyone wants to give them credit for. Kobe, after all, was the guy that went off for 60 a game for a little while to will the Lakers into the playoffs. That was about as impressive a feat as I've ever seen.

-In the end, I care more about win differential than points per game. That shows more of a player's impact on the game than the stat sheet. D-Wade can turn a 15-win team into a 40-win team. Pippen, Kobe and LeBron turn a 15-win team into a 50-win team that were first- or second-round exits (averaging out because of the quality of competition each had to play). Jordan probably turned a 15-win team into a 55-win second-round team. Bill Russell turned a 15-win team into a championship team. Literally. He retired after Boston won '69 Finals. The following season, with the exact same supporting cast minus Russell and the same scoring leader (all-time great John Havlicek), The Celtics stumbled to the second-worst record in the league. There's my argument for greatness, and he never even scored 20 a game through an entire season.


agree 100% except your selling Wade short..in the 2006 finals he was THE guy and scored 28 a game while the next best was 18 a game

plus in these finals without Wade IMO Dallas has a 3-1 lead easy..he has made shot after shot after shot

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
agree 100% except your selling Wade short..in the 2006 finals he was THE guy and scored 28 a game while the next best was 18 a game

plus in these finals without Wade IMO Dallas has a 3-1 lead easy..he has made shot after shot after shot
I think there's a lot of truth in both opinions. I just don't know if Wade has it in him to single-handedly take a team to 50 wins. I think when he closes in on the prize, though, his focus narrows. The same quality we saw in Larry Bird and Reggie Miller.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I think there's a lot of truth in both opinions. I just don't know if Wade has it in him to single-handedly take a team to 50 wins. I think when he closes in on the prize, though, his focus narrows. The same quality we saw in Larry Bird and Reggie Miller.

imo that is exactly what he did in 06...the finals were won because of Wade..he scored 28..23..42..36..43 and 36

Yes the refs played a part, but he did what he had to do and came up big time after time after time

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
imo that is exactly what he did in 06...the finals were won because of Wade..he scored 28..23..42..36..43 and 36

Yes the refs played a part, but he did what he had to do and came up big time after time after time
Shaq was still pretty good in '06. That was probably his last season that he was truly an All-Star caliber player, even though he was limited to barely 30 minutes a game.

IMO, those 30 minutes of a 33-year-old Shaq gave the HEAT the extra push to nab the second seed in the East and get into the Finals.

I think the following seasons, with a clearly-aging Shaq and limited help, showed more of D-Wade's limitations as a guard who was trying to do it all by himself.

Still, I'd buy that he's the third-best SG of all-time.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Shaq was still pretty good in '06. That was probably his last season that he was truly an All-Star caliber player, even though he was limited to barely 30 minutes a game.

IMO, those 30 minutes of a 33-year-old Shaq gave the HEAT the extra push to nab the second seed in the East and get into the Finals.


Shaq scored all of 13 points a game in the finals including a 5 point and 9 point performance..he was ok, he was not a 1A player in those finals..he also had two games in 6 where he did not even reach double digit rebounds

and in that series he played over 35 minutes in 3 of the games.over 30 minutes in 5 of the games

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Shaq scored all of 13 points a game in the finals including a 5 point and 9 point performance..he was ok, he was not a 1A player in those finals..he also had two games in 6 where he did not even reach double digit rebounds

and in that series he played over 35 minutes in 3 of the games.over 30 minutes in 5 of the games
I definitely agree that Wade carried them to the title. I was talking more about the bulk of the rest of the season. Shaq put up 20 and 9 to go along with a couple blocks in only 30 minutes a game.

[eagles_victory]

People are reporting on the Heat board Lebron is recieving death threats from the Mafia.

[coach]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I was getting a little off-topic on some other threads, so I figured I'd revive this one.

I definitely think Michael Jordan's overrated. I think he came along at the perfect time...just after the Magic/Bird rivalry breathed life into league that was the equivalent of the MLS of the 1970's and turned it into the NBA that we know today, and just before complete tabloid journalism in sports.

I think that he was an all-time great who played at a level that many guys had never seen in their lives, strung together one three-peat followed a few years later by another. Athletically, he was all the best of Vince Carter mixed with all the best of Ron Artest. The strength, athleticism, explosiveness, and then some. He had a drive that few people possess and a flair that people loved to watch for all the same reasons that Vince made Canadian basketball watchable in the late-90's and early-00's.

And David Stern, not wanting the league to fall back into mediocrity, capitalized on all this. Here he was, staring at an all-time great on the level of Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, and Bill Russell with more flair than any of them. A guy who was as-, if not more-, watchable than Pistol Pete, as athletic as Dr. J, and whose greatness led his teams to six championships.

Stern made Jordan the icon of the league. As Magic's career was winding down and Bird's back was giving out on him, MJ became the player that took the place of both of them and his legend took off. Magic himself called Jordan the greatest of all-time, not to mention Charles Barkley, one of the greatest posts of all-time.

He was dubbed "the greatest" by some esteemed peers and was simultaneously the most famous person on the planet.

But how many journalists hounded Jordan after his extramarital affairs came to light? How many of you even knew that was ever a story? To that same point, how many people will know about Tiger Woods' extramarital affairs going forward?

I don't remember exactly when it was, early-90's or late-80's maybe, but somewhere in the frame of time, Sportscenter went from a 30-minute program to an hour-long program. I still remember watching the first hour-long Sportscenter one night (back then, it was recorded at night). Then, as time went on and Sportscenter became more culturally significant, it expanded from a couple shows between 6 and 9 AM along with its late-night slot to extended times with extended coverage, daily updates, and several crews that worked the various shifts.

Jordan was a bit of sleazeball. He cheated on his wife. Repeatedly. He punched teammates (an almost-universally well-liked guy, at that) in practice. He was crotchety, he was disliked by half the members of the media, and if it wasn't for Bill Wennington he may not have had a team to follow him.

When his career began, Sportscenter was watched by a few sports junkie and some nerdy little sports junkie kid from Ingleside, TX who woke up at 5:30 so I could grab breakfast and get ready in time to catch Sportscenter and see how my Blue Jays were playing (one of the reasons I wound up going into sportscasting). It was only 30 minutes long and had just enough time to cover the bullets, the scores, and the highlights. Get in, run a couple minutes of highlights, get out. Show a graphic of the league leaders, then the show's over. Back then, most traditional news programming thought that 30 minutes was too long for a sports show, so when ESPN upped its flagship to an hour, traditional news anchors went into seizures.

ESPN didn't really know what to cover with all this additional time, so they went to talking a little more. Because of this, Jordan's legend grew. Then Jordan retired. Then ESPN discovered that sleaze sells.

I honestly don't think that anyone's "wrong" for saying that Jordan's the best player ever. He very well could be, and even though I have Bill Russell ranked ahead of him, if God came to me in a vision and told me that MJ was "greater" than Russell, I'd buy it pretty quickly.

I just don't think that Jordan the person can live up to Jordan the myth. When you have young people like coach who don't believe that Pippen is an all-time great and that Jordan won those championships by himself, it shows a disconnect between the legends that are told and the realities that are now easily able to find with the click of your mouse.

We've been conditioned to accept the fact that Jordan's the greatest, and most people are very conditioned. When your average couch potato who never played sports says Michael's the best player ever, nobody questions him. But when Tex Winter, the architect of the triangle offense and "offensive coordinator" for both Jordan's Bulls and Kobe's Lakers calls Kobe the better player, we immediately dismiss it.

What's wrong with that picture?

The problem is we have Magic, Barkley, and a few other players who immediately proclaim Jordan the king, that he was a guy that could do no wrong, and that nobody will ever live up to his greatness. Meanwhile, Red Auerbach, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, KC Jones, Wilt Chamberlain, and quite a few of the old school guys refuse to give MJ the crown.

And because those old school guys can't decide between guys like Wilt, Russell, and the Big O, we think there's some sort of consensus that MJ's the greatest player ever.

So let's dispel the rumors about Jordan and get to the facts, then compare his career with that of others...

-Pippen led HIS Bulls (sans Jordan) to 55 wins with similar role players against better competition than the NBA lEast that LeBron led his Cavs to. We can say, pretty assuredly, that Pippen was as much a difference-maker as LeBron and more than D-Wade (who has never made it out of the first round without another top-tier star, even though he had an effective, though not top-tier, Shaquille O'Neal in his later years and a Shawn Marion in his prime). But nobody would believe that Pippen was really that great of a winner because all his championships came with Jordan, and we've been told all this time that Jordan won all those championships by himself. Right?

-MJ was a leader at times, a divider at times. Let not forget that. Bill Wennington was the second-best pickup the Bulls ever made (behind Pipp). He was the glue guy that pulled the Bulls together and could use humor to balance out Jordan's fire. Jordan, remember, is the same guy that punched Steve Kerr in the face. The same Steve Kerr that went around starting Bible studies, giving his testimony as a Christian, and driving daggers in the hearts of Jazz fans worldwide.

-The reasons Jordan was such a divider was the same reasons he was so clutch. He craved competition and strived to be the best, so he was off his rocker when he wasn't playing, but poised at the end of a tight game.

-Let's just go ahead and make the statement: Jordan would've never won those titles without Pippen. And it's rare that a guard-led team is so dominant because of their place, which makes the Jordan/Pippen combo all that much more impressive. Just like the Wade/LeBron combo.

-There are players that have come through the league that are better than Jordan. But he's considered the "greatest," and that's a key difference. Like I said, Tex Winter swears up and down that the only way in which Kobe is less of a player than Jordan is his post game and that Kobe's the "better" player. But Kobe's always been a marksman from three, something that Jordan developed later in his career, but never really was considered a true threat from long range. Other than that, they're eerily similar and, IMO, a lot closer in "greatness" than anyone wants to give them credit for. Kobe, after all, was the guy that went off for 60 a game for a little while to will the Lakers into the playoffs. That was about as impressive a feat as I've ever seen.

-In the end, I care more about win differential than points per game. That shows more of a player's impact on the game than the stat sheet. D-Wade can turn a 15-win team into a 40-win team. Pippen, Kobe and LeBron turn a 15-win team into a 50-win team that were first- or second-round exits (averaging out because of the quality of competition each had to play). Jordan probably turned a 15-win team into a 55-win second-round team. Bill Russell turned a 15-win team into a championship team. Literally. He retired after Boston won '69 Finals. The following season, with the exact same supporting cast minus Russell and the same scoring leader (all-time great John Havlicek), The Celtics stumbled to the second-worst record in the league. There's my argument for greatness, and he never even scored 20 a game through an entire season.



what does being a sleaze ball and punching teammates in the face have anything to do with being great. Hell, if you want to go that far look at the GREAT Magic Johnson..he got aids from some hooker while his wife was pregnant. And there are rumors that Larry the Legend had several Kids from different mommas. (still don't know why bc he is ugly as sin) and Karl Malone disowned his own kid. Kobe cheated on his wife. none of that matters bc it was ALL off the court. And that BS about Magic and Bird saying they thought he was the greatest, well the reason why they said that was bc all of them played on THE GREATEST team of all time, the Dream Team and they say he was by far the best player to ever play the game. Like we have said before, it's the eye test. I dont care if you have 50 years on me. I have seen enough film to know that Jordan was the best. I know it's just points, but i don't think there is a soul out there that has better point totals than this.



MJ's point totals in Finals games: 36,33,29,28,30,39,39,26,32,46,33,31,42,44,55,41,33 ,28,29,36,23,26,22,31,38,26,22,38,38,33,37,24,34,2 8,45.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by coach
what does being a sleaze ball and punching teammates in the face have anything to do with being great. Hell, if you want to go that far look at the GREAT Magic Johnson..he got aids from some hooker while his wife was pregnant. And there are rumors that Larry the Legend had several Kids from different mommas. (still don't know why bc he is ugly as sin) and Karl Malone disowned his own kid. Kobe cheated on his wife. none of that matters bc it was ALL off the court. And that BS about Magic and Bird saying they thought he was the greatest, well the reason why they said that was bc all of them played on THE GREATEST team of all time, the Dream Team and they say he was by far the best player to ever play the game. Like we have said before, it's the eye test. I dont care if you have 50 years on me. I have seen enough film to know that Jordan was the best. I know it's just points, but i don't think there is a soul out there that has better point totals than this.



MJ's point totals in Finals games: 36,33,29,28,30,39,39,26,32,46,33,31,42,44,55,41,33 ,28,29,36,23,26,22,31,38,26,22,38,38,33,37,24,34,2 8,45. There is a guy getting close in a small sample size they call him flash we just call him D Wade but I dont think he can sustain it not yet but he is showing that ability to take it to another level in the finals. Even though while everyone is so busy killing Lebron (rightfully so) D Wade didnt have a strong final minute.

[Txbroadcaster]

This right here is what Russ and I have been saying

The narrative in basketball the past dozen years is to compare every player to Michael Jordan, the greatest individual postseason performer in league history. Even Bill Russell lost once in the Finals. But the world changed how it perceives and absorbs the NBA in the past decade more than Jordan changed the world. While it is true that once Jordan became a champion he never would lose again, it is also true that Jordan was not an infallible postseason performer, evidenced by his struggles early in his career, when the league boasted three legitimate powers in Boston, Los Angeles and Detroit.

Nor did Jordan, because the technology did not exist, have to deal with the instant legacy phenomenon. How differently he would have been viewed in the social media/television world after missing an easy 12-foot game winner at the end of the first overtime in his 63-point masterpiece loss to the Celtics back in '86, or after his frustrations at the hands of the Pistons, or in light of the fact that even 17 years later, he has never quite explained why he retired from basketball.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?id=6641871

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
what does being a sleaze ball and punching teammates in the face have anything to do with being great...

...I have seen enough film to know that Jordan was the best. I know it's just points, but i don't think there is a soul out there that has better point totals than this...
Being a sleazeball was part of what made MJ so great. I said that. However, I also said that he wasn't microanalyzed the way today's players are.

You have? So what do you think about Wilt on film at full speed? Or Russell's incredible basketball IQ? As far as the eye test, would you rather have Shane Battier or Gerald Wallace in their primes? Despite Wallace's sizable advantage in the eye test and the fact that he's a better overall basketball player, does he really make his team any better than Battier does?

TXB said everything I wanted to better than I did, but there's so much more to basketball than just being the best player on the court. That's why MJ's greater than Kobe even though Kobe may have well been the better basketball player.

[coach]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Being a sleazeball was part of what made MJ so great. I said that. However, I also said that he wasn't microanalyzed the way today's players are.

You have? So what do you think about Wilt on film at full speed? Or Russell's incredible basketball IQ? As far as the eye test, would you rather have Shane Battier or Gerald Wallace in their primes? Despite Wallace's sizable advantage in the eye test and the fact that he's a better overall basketball player, does he really make his team any better than Battier does?

TXB said everything I wanted to better than I did, but there's so much more to basketball than just being the best player on the court. That's why MJ's greater than Kobe even though Kobe may have well been the better basketball player.

Wilt was damn good but he was playing against guys that were 8 inches shorter lol. Bill had great iq but so did Jordan. And I woul have taken Shane anyways lol. You have yet to give me a fault of jordan's. All you are saying is te media is the reason why he is the best ever and that pippen helped him. When the greats you list have had better helpers than pippen ever thought being. Also to say Kobe might be a better basketball player is just insulting. When you can tell me jordan's faults then I will listen. 6 rings and 6 MVPs. He was the best player on a team that had 72 wins! No team will ever top that. If wilt was so good why could'r he lead his team to that many wins lol. Mj may have been better but Kobe might have been a Better player does not evenake any sense the more I think about it. And earlier you said bein the greatest and best means two different things? Explain to me how? Jordan is the best. Jordan is the greatest. You still haven't proven anything yet. You have yet to tell me one player that's better. You keep throwing different names but not once have you said Jordan is not the best of greatest or whatever you are trying to say. You have not said player a is better than mj bc...

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by coach
Wilt was damn good but he was playing against guys that were 8 inches shorter lol. Bill had great iq but so did Jordan. And I woul have taken Shane anyways lol. You have yet to give me a fault of jordan's. All you are saying is te media is the reason why he is the best ever and that pippen helped him. When the greats you list have had better helpers than pippen ever thought being. Also to say Kobe might be a better basketball player is just insulting. When you can tell me jordan's faults then I will listen. 6 rings and 6 MVPs. He was the best player on a team that had 72 wins! No team will ever top that. If wilt was so good why could'r he lead his team to that many wins lol. Mj may have been better but Kobe might have been a Better player does not evenake any sense the more I think about it. And earlier you said bein the greatest and best means two different things? Explain to me how? Jordan is the best. Jordan is the greatest. You still haven't proven anything yet. You have yet to tell me one player that's better. You keep throwing different names but not once have you said Jordan is not the best of greatest or whatever you are trying to say. You have not said player a is better than mj bc...


ok fault one..he never won a ring without Pippen or Jackson

Fault two...he wilted agianst the Pistons and Celtics when those teams were in their prime or close to it

fault 3..he was a coach killer until Jackson

need more?


and again..just saying he is overrated does not mean I dont think he was one of the top 5 players ever..I just think people who did not watch him and the Bulls think he was the everything and had not talent around him and that simply is not true..he benefited from Pippen, Rodman, Grant and Kerr as much as they did from him

[coach]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
ok fault one..he never won a ring without Pippen or Jackson

Fault two...he wilted agianst the Pistons and Celtics when those teams were in their prime or close to it

fault 3..he was a coach killer until Jackson

need more?


and again..just saying he is overrated does not mean I dont think he was one of the top 5 players ever..I just think people who did not watch him and the Bulls think he was the everything and had not talent around him and that simply is not true..he benefited from Pippen, Rodman, Grant and Kerr as much as they did from him

So who is better? I'm sure whoever you think had way more faults than Jordan lol.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by coach
So who is better? I'm sure whoever you think had way more faults than Jordan lol.


again coach I have said he is at least top 5( the top 5-9 players IMO is subjective)...that still does not mean he has not been raised to a status that he did no wrong, he never played bad and he alone led the Bulls to titles with subpar talent around.

BTW..I would take Magic and Bird before Jordan for one reason...they did what the team needed on certain night..if rebounded was an issue, they crashed the boards..if passing was an issue they distrubuted..if they needed to score 40 they did it..and they did all that agianst a better league talent wise

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
You have yet to give me a fault of jordan's. All you are saying is te media is the reason why he is the best ever and that pippen helped him. When the greats you list have had better helpers than pippen ever thought being. Also to say Kobe might be a better basketball player is just insulting.
First of all, greatness is definitely a different debate than "best." We need to get you schooled in the two. As much as players, workouts, and the game have evolved, there are very few old school players who would get mentioned in the "best" argument. But there are plenty who belong in the "greatest" argument. Best just goes by skill while greatest takes on-court performance and gamesmanship into account.

Let's face facts, the only pre-1970 players that I can think of who belong in the "best" argument are Wilt and the Big O. Different game now, even point guards play above the rim, where as it used to only be posts and forwards.

To the rest of the argument...

JORDAN'S WEAKNESSES
-Three-point shooting.
-He dominated the ball and brought the offense to a halt.
-Attitude rubbed people the wrong way. With the wrong supporting cast, he could've just as easily gone down as a malcontent that ran everyone off.

That's about it. All things I've covered in previous posts, but nothing that really takes him out of the "greatest of all-time" debate.

But for all the questioning you've done for me, you've never answered why you don't care for Pippen. He's answered every question, led a team of nobodys to 55 wins, averaged 22 points with nearly 9 boards, six assists, and 3 steals to pick up the slack for MJ's departure, and was a skilled all-around player. I'm still lost as to why you don't think he was all that good.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
Also to say Kobe might be a better basketball player is just insulting.
Why is that?

[coach]

Jordan was not that bad as a 3 point shooter. If you want to talk about shooting then what was wilt's jump shot like lol and don't say he needed one bc obviously mj didn't either. And I love jordan's on the court attitude. Off the court not so much.




Never Said he wasn't good. I just think he is overrated. I will finish this argument tomorrow lol I'm literally falling asleep as o type this. Lol

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by coach
Jordan was not that bad as a 3 point shooter. If you want to talk about shooting then what was wilt's jump shot like lol and don't say he needed one bc obviously mj didn't either. And I love jordan's on the court attitude. Off the court not so much.




Never Said he wasn't good. I just think he is overrated. I will finish this argument tomorrow lol I'm literally falling asleep as o type this. Lol


uhh Wilt finished with a 54 % shooting from the field

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
Jordan was not that bad as a 3 point shooter. If you want to talk about shooting then what was wilt's jump shot like lol and don't say he needed one bc obviously mj didn't either. And I love jordan's on the court attitude. Off the court not so much.




Never Said he wasn't good. I just think he is overrated. I will finish this argument tomorrow lol I'm literally falling asleep as o type this. Lol
His second go-round he worked on his outside shot (his game definitely evolved with age...also went more to the post and his fadeaway following his return) and was OK, but before that it was like watching Antoine Walker. He thought he was a shooter, you knew he'd hoist a couple every game, it just wasn't pretty to watch.

I know Wilt didn't have an outside game, but he was unstoppable in the post the same way Jordan was when he drove or hit the fadeaway from 12'. The elevation he got on that shot made it as tough to guard as Dirk's turnaround. Nonetheless, scoring is only part of the equation. If it mattered as much as we give it credit for, 'Melo would own a few championships by now. That kid is one of the prettiest, most complete scorers I've ever seen.

Let me know your thoughts on Pipp. I always hated him and the Bulls, but he was pretty to watch. Just so smooth and fluid...had a little Vince Young in the way he moved.

[coach]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
uhh Wilt finished with a 54 % shooting from the field

and how many of those shots were outside of 3 feet....that's like when ppl raved about colt mccoy's completion %. hell he threw the ball down the field just twice a game.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
His second go-round he worked on his outside shot (his game definitely evolved with age...also went more to the post and his fadeaway following his return) and was OK, but before that it was like watching Antoine Walker. He thought he was a shooter, you knew he'd hoist a couple every game, it just wasn't pretty to watch.

. I guess that is the reason everyone was so shocked when he hit the 3's against Portland in the finals.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
I guess that is the reason everyone was so shocked when he hit the 3's against Portland in the finals.
A lot of people think/thought Jordan was a complete player, but that's simply not true.

Like TXB was saying, if you score 63 in a game these days, you're still criticized if you don't win. How can Kobe live up to Jordan's legacy? Back in 2007, when the Lakers were struggling late in the season and had lost a week of games, Kobe got fed up and ran off a streak of 50-point games. Lakers won all of them. And Kobe was blasted for being "selfish." The same thing that happened the year before when he went off for 80+. And the Lakers won.

Yet when Jordan scored 63 and lost against the Celts, he didn't get receive the criticism.

Guys nowadays are in a lose-lose situation. They can't win for losing. Jordan's myth is a large shadow, one that's unjustly cast.

But now that I've said that, Jordan's still above Kobe in the pecking order. It's just not as big a gap as we all think it is because Jordan wasn't scrutinized (thus, the air of perfection in basketball) the way these kids are.

[coach]

Kobe was not scrutinized by that 81 point game or those 50 point games nudge media or fans. He was by Phil Jackson. Phil simply said that's not what our offense is about and he usually only said that after a loss. Not to mention the greatest coach to ever coach in the NBA has stated several times that Jordan is the best. And to your response about schooling me in the difference between greatness and the best- greatness is diffirent than THE greatest. You can't be better than the greatest buy you can still have greatness and no be the greatest. Therefore greatest is equivalent to the best.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by coach
Kobe was not scrutinized by that 81 point game or those 50 point games nudge media or fans. He was by Phil Jackson. Phil simply said that's not what our offense is about and he usually only said that after a loss. Not to mention the greatest coach to ever coach in the NBA has stated several times that Jordan is the best. And to your response about schooling me in the difference between greatness and the best- greatness is diffirent than THE greatest. You can't be better than the greatest buy you can still have greatness and no be the greatest. Therefore greatest is equivalent to the best. People were coming out saying that the 81 was selfish. People were saying most of the star players in the league could go for 81 they just choose not to do it.

[coach]

Also, the thing about bill russel and wilt, is there was no such thing as hand checking.I would love to see Tyson Chandler rough up wilt. Shaq would make wilt look like a fool on down when shaq was on offense.


And to say Jordan was not the complete player is just foolish. What made Jordan so great was he got better every year. People say he isn't a shooter.... He had a beautiful fade away. The shot against cleveland and the jazz was a thing of beauty. Not to mention the shot he hit to win the national championship as a frosh. He came into the league as a driver kinda like dwade and developed an undergrad jumper. Jordan has a lot less faults than anyone else. Another reason to label him the best is he improved his game every offseason. They day he couldn't defend and hr is a 9 time NBA first team. They said he fist have a jump shot, he developed a solid jumper.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by coach
Shaq would make wilt look like a fool on down when shaq was on offense.

like shaq made akeem look foolish? a much lighter, much less agressive player? if shaq couldnt get the best of akeem i dont see wilt being made a fool of.....distance of years make some of us really flippant about talent...heck, id take russell heads up on shaq in a team game, even WITH his height deficiency......of course it would depend on what mood stern was in on that day to know how much bulldozing instead of basketballing he was gonna let shaq get away with on that particular matchup.....

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by coach
Also, the thing about bill russel and wilt, is there was no such thing as hand checking.I would love to see Tyson Chandler rough up wilt.
. I agree Wilt wouldnt get one rebound vs Tyson Chandler.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
Kobe was not scrutinized by that 81 point game or those 50 point games nudge media or fans. He was by Phil Jackson. Phil simply said that's not what our offense is about and he usually only said that after a loss. Not to mention the greatest coach to ever coach in the NBA has stated several times that Jordan is the best. And to your response about schooling me in the difference between greatness and the best- greatness is diffirent than THE greatest. You can't be better than the greatest buy you can still have greatness and no be the greatest. Therefore greatest is equivalent to the best.
1. You still haven't said exactly why Jordan's the best. Or why Pippen was overrated and those titles were Jordan's alone.

2. It was more than just Jackson criticizing Kobe. ESPN was already posing those questions went Jackson went on record.

3. Tex Winter actually said Kobe's better. You're going to have to show me where Jackson said MJ's better. I've seen Phil say that Jordan had a huge advantage with the size of hands and ability to control the ball, but I've only heard him compare those two, never heard him say out-and-out that MJ was better.

PS: Before you go and take this as a "Kobe is greater than MJ" argument, I'm going to stop you right here. I'm not saying that, I'm just questioning your man crush on Michael.


4. Was Bill Russell or David Robinson the better player? Now tell me which player is greater, could elevate the play of his team, etc. This is the most obvious case I could come up with of better-vs-greater.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
And to say Jordan was not the complete player is just foolish. What made Jordan so great was he got better every year. People say he isn't a shooter.... He had a beautiful fade away. The shot against cleveland and the jazz was a thing of beauty. Not to mention the shot he hit to win the national championship as a frosh. He came into the league as a driver kinda like dwade and developed an undergrad jumper. Jordan has a lot less faults than anyone else. Another reason to label him the best is he improved his game every offseason. They day he couldn't defend and hr is a 9 time NBA first team. They said he fist have a jump shot, he developed a solid jumper.
Most complete player ever was Oscar Robertson.

Originally posted by eagles_victory
I agree Wilt wouldnt get one rebound vs Tyson Chandler.
Gotta disagree with both of you on this one. Wilt would still be a monster in today's game. He never went as hard to the bucket as some of today's players, but that was only because of the rules back then. The league didn't begin to accept dunks until the ABA really revolutionized the style of the game.

Wilt was bigger than Hakeem, D-Rob, etc, and didn't have a regular workout regimen. He was the kid who showed up mysteriously at your school his sophomore year, had never touched a weight before, and puts up 250 lbs his first time to ever lay down on a bench press.

His vert was higher than Jordan's and he was a monster in the paint. We don't know how different his game would look if he had grown up in the modern era, but consider this: there was a newspaper article about Chamberlain some years ago where coach Larry Brown told a story about Wilt. In the early-80's, there was some high-profile pickup game being run in LA that 40-something-year-old Wilt decided to attend one day. Magic Johnson was running the games and called a few ticky tack fouls/goaltending/something of that nature against Wilt. According to Brown, Wilt got pissed, told everyone that he was going to stuff all of their shots, and nobody else would score. And he followed through on that, making a fool out of Magic.

[trojandad]

tyson chandler has been missing dunks for his fear of getting blocked by lebron again,dont think he wouldnt be peeing off colored if wilt was learking....next were gonna hear how mike miller would give wilt heck.....

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Most complete player ever was Oscar Robertson.

Gotta disagree with both of you on this one. Wilt would still be a monster in today's game. He never went as hard to the bucket as some of today's players, but that was only because of the rules back then. The league didn't begin to accept dunks until the ABA really revolutionized the style of the game.

Wilt was bigger than Hakeem, D-Rob, etc, and didn't have a regular workout regimen. He was the kid who showed up mysteriously at your school his sophomore year, had never touched a weight before, and puts up 250 lbs his first time to ever lay down on a bench press.

His vert was higher than Jordan's and he was a monster in the paint. We don't know how different his game would look if he had grown up in the modern era, but consider this: there was a newspaper article about Chamberlain some years ago where coach Larry Brown told a story about Wilt. In the early-80's, there was some high-profile pickup game being run in LA that 40-something-year-old Wilt decided to attend one day. Magic Johnson was running the games and called a few ticky tack fouls/goaltending/something of that nature against Wilt. According to Brown, Wilt got pissed, told everyone that he was going to stuff all of their shots, and nobody else would score. And he followed through on that, making a fool out of Magic. I wasn't serious lol. I was just saying that because there have been 6 or 7 times in this series where Miami got a rebound and Dallas got it back because of a foul on Tyson Chandler in the process. So I was saying like Wilt wouldnt get a rebound vs Tyson because he would keep getting fouls called on him.

[coach]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
1. You still haven't said exactly why Jordan's the best. Or why Pippen was overrated and those titles were Jordan's alone.

2. It was more than just Jackson criticizing Kobe. ESPN was already posing those questions went Jackson went on record.

3. Tex Winter actually said Kobe's better. You're going to have to show me where Jackson said MJ's better. I've seen Phil say that Jordan had a huge advantage with the size of hands and ability to control the ball, but I've only heard him compare those two, never heard him say out-and-out that MJ was better.

PS: Before you go and take this as a "Kobe is greater than MJ" argument, I'm going to stop you right here. I'm not saying that, I'm just questioning your man crush on Michael.


4. Was Bill Russell or David Robinson the better player? Now tell me which player is greater, could elevate the play of his team, etc. This is the most obvious case I could come up with of better-vs-greater.

1. Yes, I have said why Jordan is the greatest or best...still don't know the difference. Jordan has 6 rings with 6 MVP's. he was THE best player on his team ever year. Name one other athlete with that many ships who was THE best player every year on their own team. And I NEVER said those titles were Jordan's alone. I agree that without Pipp, Mj Does not win those titles. All I am saying is Pipp isn't a top 50 player of all time. I just read an article in sports illustrated that Pipp was a top 25 player. I literally laughed out loud. I will say Pipp was very very good though. Put him on the Mavs and they sweep the heat.

2. so if kobe was selfish for scoring 81, what does that make wilt when he put up 100 lol

3. Tex Winter lol

4. I'll take Bill over David any day. Better greatest, the goodest, the gooder, the bestest. Best and Great are basically the same thing. It's like saying sexy as hell and fine as hell are different.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I'm just questioning your man crush on Michael.

well put........people that do the "mj the greatest" thing were usually raised as a youth during that period of time that he played, got indoctrinated from espn and their cronies on the "greatest ever" tag, and now that theyre adults they dont like that they were hypnotised to something not necessarily true, just repeated tons of times.....

as to your other point, i would have taken kukoc over pippen, heck, even rodman over pippen, ESPECIALLY after that burn out on his team in that playoff game that he asked out of just because the ball wasnt coming to him....id prolly rather take coach than pippen.....

ok, that was a stretch.....

[coach]

lol at the officials complaint...I know Wilt would prob dominate Tyson. But I would want to see what he would do with a more physical player bc back then there was no such thing. Think he could out rebound dwight howard...

also, when hakeem dominated shaq, shaq was still extremely raw and young. and hakeem was in his prime. I would like to see hakeem do that in 2000, 01, and 02.

[coach]

Originally posted by trojandad
well put........people that do the "mj the greatest" thing were usually raised as a youth during that period of time that he played, got indoctrinated from espn and their cronies on the "greatest ever" tag, and now that theyre adults they dont like that they were hypnotised to something not necessarily true, just repeated tons of times.....

as to your other point, i would have taken kukoc over pippen, heck, even rodman over pippen, ESPECIALLY after that burn out on his team in that playoff game that he asked out of just because the ball wasnt coming to him....id prolly rather take coach than pippen.....

ok, that was a stretch.....

and ppl act like pipp had a bunch of scrubs when mj left. that team was pretty damn solid

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by coach

3. Tex Winter lol

. That guy is one of the best minds to ever coach in the NBA.

[coach]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
That guy is one of the best minds to ever coach in the NBA.

that's one guy is what i meant.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by coach
lol at the officials complaint...I know Wilt would prob dominate Tyson. But I would want to see what he would do with a more physical player bc back then there was no such thing. Think he could out rebound dwight howard...

also, when hakeem dominated shaq, shaq was still extremely raw and young. and hakeem was in his prime. I would like to see hakeem do that in 2000, 01, and 02.

not their primes that mattered, it was when stern unleashed bullyball on the nba, and shaq was its only allowed member...

someday hes gonna be without a dominant star and hes gonna unleash STREETBALL on us....

[coach]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Most complete player ever was Oscar Robertson.


I will say he is one of the most underrated athletes of all-time.

[coach]

and sports writers did name MJ as THE greatest ATHLETE of all-time. I;m pretty sure most of those watched wilt, russel, the big o and whomever else yall think is better than mj.

[eagles_victory]

Did anyone else know Micheal Jordan was first team offense every year he played in the league? lmao

[TheDOCTORdre]

Originally posted by coach
and sports writers did name MJ as THE greatest ATHLETE of all-time. I;m pretty sure most of those watched wilt, russel, the big o and whomever else yall think is better than mj.

and yet you discount Pippen as a Top 50 player of all time...so we can just pick and choose when sports writers are correct?

[coach]

Originally posted by TheDOCTORdre
and yet you discount Pippen as a Top 50 player of all time...so we can just pick and choose when sports writers are correct?

no i am saying now pipp is not a top 50 player bc players have surpassed him since that list was made

[eagles_victory]

I had the biggest idiot ever arguing with me about Jordan last night.

[coach]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
I had the biggest idiot ever arguing with me about Jordan last night.

well tony durham said he wasn't the best player ever lol

[trojandad]

if not for big o, i woulda never been given a shot at point guard at 6'4", him and later pistol, made coaches sit up and see that taller guys could play point guard, no doubt giving magic an opportunity to play PG a few yrs later at 6'10".....big o was a better combination offense and defense player, but pete still had him by far on offense, big o's mainstay was taking smaller guards down low....

sports writers shouldnt even be involved in this discussion, theyre the high school nerds that couldnt carry a jock so they found a way to be involved with sports by being the deciding voices on who go into halls of fame.....why arent the players and coaches over those boards?.....very silly.....wanna find out who the best welder is? dont ask a newspaper man who writes about welding, ask a long time successful welder.....

[coach]

yea, and michael's jumper was just terrible



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro&feature=related

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by coach
yea, and michael's jumper was just terrible



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro&feature=related offensive foul lol

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
1. Yes, I have said why Jordan is the greatest or best...still don't know the difference. Jordan has 6 rings with 6 MVP's. he was THE best player on his team ever year. Name one other athlete with that many ships who was THE best player every year on their own team. And I NEVER said those titles were Jordan's alone. I agree that without Pipp, Mj Does not win those titles. All I am saying is Pipp isn't a top 50 player of all time. I just read an article in sports illustrated that Pipp was a top 25 player. I literally laughed out loud. I will say Pipp was very very good though. Put him on the Mavs and they sweep the heat.

2. so if kobe was selfish for scoring 81, what does that make wilt when he put up 100 lol

3. Tex Winter lol

4. I'll take Bill over David any day. Better greatest, the goodest, the gooder, the bestest. Best and Great are basically the same thing. It's like saying sexy as hell and fine as hell are different.
1. Maybe he's not quite a top 25, but he's not too far off.

2. I don't know. I never called him selfish for it.


Originally posted by coach
that's one guy is what i meant.
3. Tex Winter called Kobe better, but he's not the first to call someone else better or greater than Jordan. Red Auerbach. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. JoJo White. It's not just Tex.

4. Dude, David was a better player. Robinson was one of the most skilled big men ever. Was good for 25-30 a game every year, had incredible handles for a big man, great footwork, quickness, explosiveness, strength, the whole nine yards. Had 4.5 blocks per game for an entire season and averaged 3 blocks a game through his career (fourth all-time). Was Dwight Howard with an offensive game. Brought things to the table nobody had brought before.

Watch this link. Mainly D-Rob in the open court. The quickness, the handles, the change of direction. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18)



Originally posted by coach
yea, and michael's jumper was just terrible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro&feature=related
It wasn't terrible. It just wasn't accurate.

3 pt % through the years

'84-'85...17.3%
-'86...16.7%
-'87...18.2%
-'88...13.2%
-'89...27.6%
-'90...37.6% (first year with a decent outside shot)
-'91...31.2%
-'92...27.0%
-'93...35.2%

(Retirement)

'94-'95 (short season; 17 games)...50.0%
-'96...42.7% (here he's finally matured as a consistent outside shooter)
-'97...37.4%
-'98...23.8% (and here, he's terrible again)

(Retirement 2)

'01-'02...18.9%
-'03...29.1%


Every player has a weakness. Even Jordan. That's why guys like BJ Armstrong and Steve Kerr were so valuable. Until then, BJ Armstrong was both a facilitator and could spread the offense with his ability to knock down the three. When Pipp began facilitating the offense during Jordan's first retirement, Armstrong became expendable and it allowed Kerr (who was basically a short, slow gunner with a high basketball IQ) to step up and assume a major role with the team.

[JJWalker]

The measure I use when comparing people to Jordan ... it shear emotional amazement.

There were times I watched as Jordan did things during a game and literally felt amazed.

I have not felt that response in a long time.

Perhaps the overall skill of players has increased and matches each other better, but MJ just was a spectacle.

With that said, Larry Bird was a spectacle too.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by coach
and ppl act like pipp had a bunch of scrubs when mj left. that team was pretty damn solid

they were not really that solid

Had all of 4 guys scoring in double figures..no one accept Pippen scored over 16 points a game

had one guy( Grant who averaged more than 10 rebounds a game)..Pippen averaged 9

So basically Pippen on that team was what Jordan was to the Bulls of the late 80's before Pippen and JAckson got there

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
and ppl act like pipp had a bunch of scrubs when mj left. that team was pretty damn solid
In what world is that team solid? Outside of Pipp, it was as solid as this year's Cavs.

Out of their contributors, Toni Kukoc's best years (15+ PPG) came on his worst teams. He was an average player who simply gave them length and a few points. Ideally was suited as a bench player to give smaller perimeter players problems. Steve Kerr works as a fill-in shooter and a lane-clogger, but was really a situational player. Wennington and Scotty Williams were big bodies, but were slow-footed and didn't bring much to the offensive end of the court. Can't remember if I'm leaving anyone out (were Luc Longley, Bill Cartwright, and John Paxson on those teams???--I can't remember, and don't know if it matters anyways). The only two players who belonged in an NBA starting five during those years were BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant. And neither of those guys were a number two option, they were bit pieces that flourished best when they had specific roles to fill (3-pt shooter/facilitator, rebounder/man-to-man defense in the post).

That was just as much Pipp against the world as the '09-'10 Cavs were LeBron against the world.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by JJWalker
The measure I use when comparing people to Jordan ... it shear emotional amazement.

There were times I watched as Jordan did things during a game and literally felt amazed.

I have not felt that response in a long time.

Perhaps the overall skill of players has increased and matches each other better, but MJ just was a spectacle.

With that said, Larry Bird was a spectacle too.
That's very true. And it's not just that MJ did it, it's that he did it on a consistent basis.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
In what world is that team solid? Outside of Pipp, it was as solid as this year's Cavs.

Out of their contributors, Toni Kukoc's best years (15+ PPG) came on his worst teams. He was an average player who simply gave them length and a few points. Ideally was suited as a bench player to give smaller perimeter players problems. Steve Kerr works as a fill-in shooter and a lane-clogger, but was really a situational player. Wennington and Scotty Williams were big bodies, but were slow-footed and didn't bring much to the offensive end of the court. Can't remember if I'm leaving anyone out (were Luc Longley, Bill Cartwright, and John Paxson on those teams???--I can't remember, and don't know if it matters anyways). The only two players who belonged in an NBA starting five during those years were BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant. And neither of those guys were a number two option, they were bit pieces that flourished best when they had specific roles to fill (3-pt shooter/facilitator, rebounder/man-to-man defense in the post).

That was just as much Pipp against the world as the '09-'10 Cavs were LeBron against the world.

would have loved tohave seen the 95 bulls team with jordan get by orlando, that way all the chicago talk of all time teams coulda been put to rest....but alas, we had to sweep orlando instead.....oh, aand with the sixth seeded team......

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by trojandad
would have loved tohave seen the 95 bulls team with jordan get by orlando, that way all the chicago talk of all time teams coulda been put to rest....but alas, we had to sweep orlando instead.....oh, aand with the sixth seeded team......
The way Hakeem was playing, I don't know that Jordan in game shape could've beat the Rockets. I do know it would've been the toughest matchup the Bulls faced during their run.

I wish we could pit the best teams of the 90's in an ultimate playoff. Hakeem's Rockets, Isaiah's Pistons, MJ's Bulls, the Twin Tower Spurs.

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
The way Hakeem was playing, I don't know that Jordan in game shape could've beat the Rockets. I do know it would've been the toughest matchup the Bulls faced during their run.

I wish we could pit the best teams of the 90's in an ultimate playoff. Hakeem's Rockets, Isaiah's Pistons, MJ's Bulls, the Twin Tower Spurs. I would have to go with Isiah's pistons because they would just be too physical for anyone.

[icu812]

13 guys in NBA history who’ve been league MVP, Finals MVP and 10-time All-Star. Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Julius Erving, Moses Malone, Wilt Chamberlain, Kobe Bryant, Oscar Robertson, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O’Neal and Dirk Nowitzki.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
The way Hakeem was playing, I don't know that Jordan in game shape could've beat the Rockets. I do know it would've been the toughest matchup the Bulls faced during their run.

I wish we could pit the best teams of the 90's in an ultimate playoff. Hakeem's Rockets, Isaiah's Pistons, MJ's Bulls, the Twin Tower Spurs.

i heard rich lord on kilt-houston tell bob ryan from boston on a phone interview that during the bulls 6 championships and the two rockets years, no team had a winning record against the bulls except akeem and the rockets.....i cant verify that anywhere i look but hes a pretty dependable guy with his numbers....would sure be a great stat for that argument.....

ryan started out his talk with "the bulls with jordan would have taken the rockets those two years" but after admitting he had never heard those stats before, said he'd sure take another look at his opinion....persuaded a new englander, thats heavy stuff.....lol

[trojandad]

and heres one i just saw....

If I had to pick a center [for an all-time best team], I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot of people. And the reason I would take Olajuwon is very simple: he is so versatile because of what he can give you from that position. It's not just his scoring, not just his rebounding or not just his blocked shots. People don't realize he was in the top seven in steals. He always made great decisions on the court. For all facets of the game, I have to give it to him.
—Michael Jordan

[trojandad]

Originally posted by icu812
13 guys in NBA history who’ve been league MVP, Finals MVP and 10-time All-Star. Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Julius Erving, Moses Malone, Wilt Chamberlain, Kobe Bryant, Oscar Robertson, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O’Neal and Dirk Nowitzki.

shouldnt akeem be on that list?

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by trojandad
and heres one i just saw....

If I had to pick a center [for an all-time best team], I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot of people. And the reason I would take Olajuwon is very simple: he is so versatile because of what he can give you from that position. It's not just his scoring, not just his rebounding or not just his blocked shots. People don't realize he was in the top seven in steals. He always made great decisions on the court. For all facets of the game, I have to give it to him.
—Michael Jordan
I've talked about David Robinson in a few posts lately. About how good of a player the Admiral was, how he would dominate the low post against today's centers, how he was good for 25 pts, 11 boards, a few assists, and 3 or 4 blocks to go along with his 2 steals a game. How he had a complete offensive game was stingy on D. How MJ's Bulls and Ewing's Knicks alike (two completely different teams) struggled to get shots off against Robinson's quickness and length. How he was considered the "prototype" for all centers from the moment he came out of college to the minute he retired.

And Hakeem was even better than The Admiral. I've never before seen a 7-footer that quick with that type of footwork. Not even the 7-foot and near-7-foot small forwards like Kevin Garnett, Kevin Durant, Dirk, and (don't laugh) Darko Milicic.

It wasn't his rebounding, scoring, etc that separated him from the pack. It was the fact that he could get around a two-guard from the perimeter and dunk over a seven-footer in the paint. Face up, back-to-the-basket, Hakeem was quick enough and had the handles to do it all.

[Dogman_1969]

Jordon was and is the GOAT.

Won 3 straight, left the game, came back and won a few more just to prove it to his self that he still could do it, and in my opinion, to help cope with the loss of his father.

He is still the GOAT.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Dogman_1969
Jordon was and is the GOAT.

Won 3 straight, left the game, came back and won a few more just to prove it to his self that he still could do it, and in my opinion, to help cope with the loss of his father.

He is still the GOAT.
Hey may be, but is he overrated? Are the legends of his greatness exaggerated in any way?

[coach]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Hey may be, but is he overrated? Are the legends of his greatness exaggerated in any way?

imo all legends are overrated.....just like the legendary fish tales your grandfather has told you.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
imo all legends are overrated.....just like the legendary fish tales your grandfather has told you.
So does that mean your answer to the original question is yes?

[icu812]

Originally posted by trojandad
shouldnt akeem be on that list?

Yes you are correct. IMO, the best center ever and he played in an era that had several dominant centers.

[coach]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
So does that mean your answer to the original question is yes?

Yes, but all legends are overrated for that matter. He is still the greatest/best ever. If you want to call him overrated then i will agree to an extent.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I've talked about David Robinson in a few posts lately. About how good of a player the Admiral was, how he would dominate the low post against today's centers, how he was good for 25 pts, 11 boards, a few assists, and 3 or 4 blocks to go along with his 2 steals a game. How he had a complete offensive game was stingy on D. How MJ's Bulls and Ewing's Knicks alike (two completely different teams) struggled to get shots off against Robinson's quickness and length. How he was considered the "prototype" for all centers from the moment he came out of college to the minute he retired.

And Hakeem was even better than The Admiral. I've never before seen a 7-footer that quick with that type of footwork. Not even the 7-foot and near-7-foot small forwards like Kevin Garnett, Kevin Durant, Dirk, and (don't laugh) Darko Milicic.

It wasn't his rebounding, scoring, etc that separated him from the pack. It was the fact that he could get around a two-guard from the perimeter and dunk over a seven-footer in the paint. Face up, back-to-the-basket, Hakeem was quick enough and had the handles to do it all.

ive always been a robinson fan, and the job akeem did on him in the 95 run was amazing, david goes to the press after game 6 and says "i hate to say this with a straight face, but i felt i guarded the man as well as he could be guarded"....and david was MVP that year....

akeem accomplished 2 things i dont think will ever be touched again, being named MVP of an ncaa championship game while being on the losing team, and winning the nba championship as a 6 seed and beating 4 60 win teams to do it....

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
Yes, but all legends are overrated for that matter. He is still the greatest/best ever. If you want to call him overrated then i will agree to an extent.
That's exactly what I think. I've got Russell as the greatest, MJ as number 2, but the difference between the two is miniscule. Like I said, if someone set down some ground rules and said, for example, that the greatest would have to have shown their offensive prowess by being a 20 PPG scorer, then I'd go with Jordan.

I don't discount him being either the greatest or right there. I just think the modern comparisons to everything Jordan did are unfair. Nobody will ever live up to the legend of Jordan, I just wish we were more realistic about the player he was--both his shortcomings and his strengths--and take a more objective approach towards the players nearing the Jordan benchmark.


Originally posted by trojandad
ive always been a robinson fan, and the job akeem did on him in the 95 run was amazing, david goes to the press after game 6 and says "i hate to say this with a straight face, but i felt i guarded the man as well as he could be guarded"....and david was MVP that year....

akeem accomplished 2 things i dont think will ever be touched again, being named MVP of an ncaa championship game while being on the losing team, and winning the nba championship as a 6 seed and beating 4 60 win teams to do it....
I think D-Rob was right on the money. I don't know of anyone who could've contained Hakeem. You'd need to find a guy with footwork of a six footer in the body of seven footer, and Olajuwon's the only guy who could ever claim that. The play at :54 sums up the entire series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

Robinson winds up playing on his heels, even playing off Olajuwon by five feet, as Hakeem is facing him up at 21'. D-Rob tries to take away the baseline, then overcommits to his left, is left on his heels, and Hakeem just abuses him from there.

And we're not talking about a guy who was a scrub defensively. He was one of the best defensive centers ever, both as a help defender and a man-on defender. On top of that, he was one of the quickest and fastest seven footers out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18

The very first play--the steal and the dunk. That long-strider that was running full speed down the court and changed direction twice in two steps is the guy that was destroyed by Hakeem's quickenss.

[trojandad]

we need to start a new thread.....most underated...the guy couldnt have done anymore than he did, yet he did so much people have a hard time assimilating to it just because those records were in their faces since birth, they lose their sparrkle when watching windmill dunks and posterizings, which russell could care less about....

because of russell i honestly believed i could defend anyone, he showed me that basketball was more mental than physical or else wilt would have won each matchup....

he helped show me that the game was so much larger than the play, and that the best know that people are gonna score, but there is the game before, during and after the score that can completely negate what they did....

russell is my guy, absolutely....i believe he could play center today, and succeed......may be wrong, but id sure enjoy watching him....