Ranchers Dad wrote this article in the Brazosport Facts

[pancho villa]

Society that dilutes education doomed to fail


Society that dilutes education doomed to fail By RON ROZELLE

First, educators in Brazoport ISD were offered an incentive payment of 10 percent of our yearly salary to quit. Then, a bill was filed in the Legislature to jerk the same amount out of everybody's check who passed on the offer.

The intended message seems clear. We're not important enough to hang on to if it means raising taxes or using the sacred rainy day fund.


The argument that such a pay cut will result in some teachers not being fired is a weak one, especially given the fact most districts already are in the process of thinning the ranks. And all of the blame being put on financially irresponsible local school boards - Gov. Rick Perry likes to sing that tune - is ludicrous. There are thousands of school districts in Texas, and every one of them is facing this dilemma. Surely at least one of them would have been smart enough to balance the books, don't you think?

School districts are usually one of the largest employers in their communities. And, as is the case in any big outfit, some of the employees should find other lines of work. But the vast majority of teachers are dedicated to the hard task they signed on for. There was a time, and not so very long ago, when teachers were afforded respect and the profession was seen as something of a calling. At least we weren't being shuffled out the door and seen as expendable pawns in a game of bottom-line economics.

Here's today's lesson from an old teacher: When a society - be it a community, a state or a nation - fails to provide the best education possible for its youth, that society is doomed to failure

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by pancho villa
Society that dilutes education doomed to fail


Here's today's lesson from an old teacher: When a society - be it a community, a state or a nation - fails to provide the best education possible for its youth, that society is doomed to failure





This would have some merit if it had ever been shown that the quality of education is directily linked to the money spent for that education. The Status Quo has never been proven to be the best way to provide an education. In fact most people agree it generally isn't working. It is simply the way we have been doing it and the way present day teachers know. To link a change of policy or funding directly to a reduction in the quality of education without any viable proof is sensationalism and a panic creating tactic meant to serve an agenda. I would fight right along side all teachers to keep their wages and benefits but don't tell me that firing you will destroy education, our country and the future of our children. The current system is producing the dumbest generation of people to ever come out the educational system. (in my opinion). It needs fixed! Of course simply cutting the funding without making appropriate changes in procedures and expectations isn't the answer either.

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
This would have some merit if it had ever been shown that the quality of education is directily linked to the money spent for that education. The Status Quo has never been proven to be the best way to provide an education. In fact most people agree it generally isn't working. It is simply the way we have been doing it and the way present day teachers know. To link a change of policy or funding directly to a reduction in the quality of education without any viable proof is sensationalism and a panic creating tactic meant to serve an agenda. I would fight right along side all teachers to keep their wages and benefits but don't tell me that firing you will destroy education, our country and the future of our children. The current system is producing the dumbest generation of people to ever come out the educational system. (in my opinion). It needs fixed! Of course simply cutting the funding without making appropriate changes in procedures and expectations isn't the answer either.


dumbest generation ever? You do know your history and how our country has progressed right?........ remember throughout our history not everyone was given an equal education or even a right to education....once was a time when the educated population was made up of wealthy white males only.

i really don't know if we can totally fault the education system...I really think parenting has changed ...which has changed our values on the educational system and how well it works..


Not saying parents love their children any less.

[pancho villa]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
This would have some merit if it had ever been shown that the quality of education is directily linked to the money spent for that education. The Status Quo has never been proven to be the best way to provide an education. In fact most people agree it generally isn't working. It is simply the way we have been doing it and the way present day teachers know. To link a change of policy or funding directly to a reduction in the quality of education without any viable proof is sensationalism and a panic creating tactic meant to serve an agenda. I would fight right along side all teachers to keep their wages and benefits but don't tell me that firing you will destroy education, our country and the future of our children. The current system is producing the dumbest generation of people to ever come out the educational system. (in my opinion). It needs fixed! Of course simply cutting the funding without making appropriate changes in procedures and expectations isn't the answer either.

It is just your people's generation that are dumb. My people are way smart for this generation.

[scrub c]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
The current system is producing the dumbest generation of people to ever come out the educational system. (in my opinion).

I think there are many factors outside the education system that are producing these "dummys"...

You know those warnings that say can cause birth defects... people should have been heeding that advice for the last 20 years... Oh yeah and crack and **** dont come with warning labels, but it makes you dumb too...BUT its easy to blame educational system,(the people who are raising your children but cant discipline them or even make them stand for the pledge and so forth and so on...) so, lets do that-point the finger elsewhere.

[pancho villa]

Originally posted by scrub c
I think there are many factors outside the education system that are producing these "dummys"...

You know those warnings that say can cause birth defects... people should have been heeding that advice for the last 20 years... Oh yeah and crack and **** dont come with warning labels, but it makes you dumb too...BUT its easy to blame educational system,(the people who are raising your children but cant discipline them or even make them stand for the pledge and so forth and so on...) so, lets do that-point the finger elsewhere.

I know scrub-c's kids are way smart and they go to public school!

[WildTexan972]

so many of you wish to argue with his assertion that our current education system is passing thru too many folls with your excuses...but NONE of your excuses override the fact that throwing more and more money at the sacred cow "education" the past few decades has NOT improved education - it has just made the teachers happy with summers off and days off during the school year for personal/sick/training and fancy sports stadiums and overdone buildings, etc....and still go ask an average kid history or geography questions and you get back that dumb stare...

the article was correct - in ALL industries some folks suck at the task at hand and should go do other work...but mention that some teachers are no good at it and the sacred cow erupts with disgust and that "we should respect our teachers" argument...

Perry is a moron (my personal opinion and I am a right winger so that is not a political stance) but he is a politician, so that alone explains why he is clueless on the lives of REAL folks and that he lies for a living....so his REASONS why are ludicris but the fact that we now spend too much for the declining results happens to be true

[pancho villa]

Originally posted by WildTexan972
so many of you wish to argue with his assertion that our current education system is passing thru too many folls with your excuses...but NONE of your excuses override the fact that throwing more and more money at the sacred cow "education" the past few decades has NOT improved education - it has just made the teachers happy with summers off and days off during the school year for personal/sick/training and fancy sports stadiums and overdone buildings, etc....and still go ask an average kid history or geography questions and you get back that dumb stare...

the article was correct - in ALL industries some folks suck at the task at hand and should go do other work...but mention that some teachers are no good at it and the sacred cow erupts with disgust and that "we should respect our teachers" argument...

Perry is a moron (my personal opinion and I am a right winger so that is not a political stance) but he is a politician, so that alone explains why he is clueless on the lives of REAL folks and that he lies for a living....so his REASONS why are ludicris but the fact that we now spend too much for the declining results happens to be true

Except all you numbnuts think cutting $ is ok. It would be if administrative positions got cut, NOT TEACHERS!

[cotulla]

cracks me up how people outside of education say it's failing. they ask a random kid how to use a tape measure, or a simple geopgraphy question, get a blank stare and are convinced that the system is failing, the teachers are milking the tax system with their summers off and God forbid we replace a decaying football stadium with a new one or have to build a new one because we have all these new high schools due to increase in population.

let me go to your job and ask your co-workers or employees some questions.. they will all make a 100 right? wait, you get to choose who you employ or who you work with/for... yeah, public education does not work that way.

ever think that the kid you run into wal-mart who can't tell you who the President is may have a learning disability, or has a Mom and Dad who places zero importance on his education... yep, the system is failing.

get out from behind your computer and go out in the community, to the school and see the fine young people who are active in the schools. go to a scholarship program and see the millions of dollars that public school children are getting.

i personally know nastyslot - he has a daughter who is graduating high school this year... a great kid... she was very involved in extra-curricular activities, lettered in 4 sports this year and is graduating top 33 out of 230 seniors. She is well prepared for the future. i don't think the system failed her.

i could give tons of examples of kids who go through public education system who are ready - just as i can give you tons of examples of kids who do not get it. would they have succeeded in Finland? In a private school after they have been given a voucher by TX??????

bottom line is that we live in America. public education is given the task to educate them all, smart - dumb - white - black - brown - purple - parented - unparented - good - bad - slow - high

how do you equally fund it?

[Dr Death]

http://www.tea.state.tx.us/student.assessment/taks/items/

Here is a released TAKS test for all of you that believe public schools are producing a bunch of dummies. Roughly 85% of all students passed this basic, remedial test that everyone says you ought to pass to show at least you learned a little. I call it the Dexter Manley test.
Now that is 85% of recent immigrnats who just learned English 2 years ago. 85 % of the kids who get themselves up to go to school without breakfast or a parent in the house and wait on the bus at 6am. 85% of the kids who live in trailers and don't want to go to school except that the government says they have to.
Go to SLC or Coppell and that number is 100%

Click on exit level. The answer key is at the end. Would love to publish the test score from some of the morons who say schools are producing dummies!

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by cotulla
cracks me up how people outside of education say it's failing. they ask a random kid how to use a tape measure, or a simple geopgraphy question, get a blank stare and are convinced that the system is failing, the teachers are milking the tax system with their summers off and God forbid we replace a decaying football stadium with a new one or have to build a new one because we have all these new high schools due to increase in population.

let me go to your job and ask your co-workers or employees some questions.. they will all make a 100 right? wait, you get to choose who you employ or who you work with/for... yeah, public education does not work that way.

ever think that the kid you run into wal-mart who can't tell you who the President is may have a learning disability, or has a Mom and Dad who places zero importance on his education... yep, the system is failing.

get out from behind your computer and go out in the community, to the school and see the fine young people who are active in the schools. go to a scholarship program and see the millions of dollars that public school children are getting.

i personally know nastyslot - he has a daughter who is graduating high school this year... a great kid... she was very involved in extra-curricular activities, lettered in 4 sports this year and is graduating top 33 out of 230 seniors. She is well prepared for the future. i don't think the system failed her.

i could give tons of examples of kids who go through public education system who are ready - just as i can give you tons of examples of kids who do not get it. would they have succeeded in Finland? In a private school after they have been given a voucher by TX??????

bottom line is that we live in America. public education is given the task to educate them all, smart - dumb - white - black - brown - purple - parented - unparented - good - bad - slow - high

how do you equally fund it?



thanks for the nice words about Ana....and you're right on about those ripping the system...they all want to blame teachers and the school district...in their eyes it's easy to blame the teachers.....sort of like Saturday morning blaming the coach for the loss the night before.

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by WildTexan972
so many of you wish to argue with his assertion that our current education system is passing thru too many folls with your excuses...but NONE of your excuses override the fact that throwing more and more money at the sacred cow "education" the past few decades has NOT improved education - it has just made the teachers happy with summers off and days off during the school year for personal/sick/training and fancy sports stadiums and overdone buildings, etc....and still go ask an average kid history or geography questions and you get back that dumb stare...

the article was correct - in ALL industries some folks suck at the task at hand and should go do other work...but mention that some teachers are no good at it and the sacred cow erupts with disgust and that "we should respect our teachers" argument...

Perry is a moron (my personal opinion and I am a right winger so that is not a political stance) but he is a politician, so that alone explains why he is clueless on the lives of REAL folks and that he lies for a living....so his REASONS why are ludicris but the fact that we now spend too much for the declining results happens to be true



your 100% right about Perry and the rest of those in our state government..............but research a little when you start talking about teachers and days off ...summer etc and those new buildings.

also go and ask an average kid how to spell fools and I bet he/she doesn't spell if "folls" I see your point now...maybe that extra month and a half of break "summer" and a teacher might of taught you to spell it or maybe type it correctly.........no summer break....and we all are a lot smarter and errorless.

[scrub c]

I don't get paid for the months I don't work, and last I checked neither do other teachers... (heck, a lot of us work other summer jobs to make ends meet)

[Black_Magic]

Look. I hear over and over about failing schools and bad teachers and its always comes from those who dont really know about what goes on in school. The major problems that education has to deal with start at home. Lack of parents holding the kids feet to the fires so to speak . many many kids go to school because the must. Its the law. they dont want to . thier mom and dad dont really care with exception to the fact that if the kid does not go they will be fined and put in jail. SO, the kids go but dont really care and dont try. Mom and dad dont either so they dont queston or push the kid. In the old days, 60s 70s 80s these kids dropped out . NOT today. they are forced to stay till 18 so they just come and serve time. it pulls test scores down and makes it look like the school is not doing its job. Look you can want it for them all you want but if they dont want it and mom and dad dont care then its over...

[NastySlot]

the problem with education is the people running our government...yes the one's we chose have no clue about what they're doing.

We have a Senator who is more worried about Private schools participating in the Public school league.

We have a state test the TAKS which about to change names...and our state spends millions to have this.

I have really become disappointed in those running our state..and I have news for you sooner or later (sooner than we we realize) our two tier 1 public universities might lose their status.............why?


I sat in the House and watched the passage of a Bill to allow electric and natural gas cars to drive the HOV lanes..What?......but a Bill that would factor in getting a budget in place.....postponed and as I left a Rep. asked why would this Bill be postponed again......I love my state but I am very disappointed.

[GrTigers6]

It will cause schools to close because thye cant afford to make repairs needed to keep it open and it becomes a safety hazard.
The proposed House bill will take 67% percent of our budget and return it to the state. That will cripple any school district. no matter how big or small.
Not to mention make us raise our tax rate to the max and only get 10% percent of that back thanks to Robin Hood.

That means that we would have to cut staff by 1/2 to 2/3 and still have 18 kids per classroom with no support staff at all, no custodians, maint, kitchen, busdrivers, None!!!

How's that not gonna hurt the education of these students?

[vet93]

Our problems in school have much more to do with societal problems and poor parenting than what the school systems are doing/or not doing. I am afraid that increased funding will not help this situation nor will the recent budget cuts and loss of classroom teachers hurt the problem as much as some would believe. It is kind of like a doctor doing surgery on the leg for a patient that has a brain tumor. While the tumor may cause the person not to be able to stand correctly, it has little to do with the leg and surgery will have no serious effect one way or the other.

In regards to teachers (My parents, sister, and multiple aunts, uncles inlaws and outlaws served as teachers, coaches and administrators...so I have been around this stuff alot), about 25% are exceptional educators and they stand well above the rest in fostering an environment that draws students to learn. 50% are competent individuals that do an adequate job but are primarily there to draw a paycheck and fund a retirement. This group generally does a good job but are not particularly inspiring except in situations where they bond with a particular student(s). The bottom 25% just need to go...they are burnt out or are angry at life or are just plain incompetent. They whine about everything and offer little in terms of solutions. They feel like they are entitled to the respect afforded an "educator" when nothing in their work life would justify that respect.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by scrub c
I don't get paid for the months I don't work, and last I checked neither do other teachers... (heck, a lot of us work other summer jobs to make ends meet) Please forgive these guys. like most of the politicians and folks who dont really deal with education , they dont know that. they dont know that you and just about every other teacher works a 10 month contract..:rolleyes:

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by vet93
about 25% are exceptional educators and they stand well above the rest in fostering an environment that draws students to learn. 50% are competent individuals that do an adequate job but are primarily there to draw a paycheck and fund a retirement. This group generally does a good job but are not particularly inspiring except in situations where they bond with a particular student(s). The bottom 25% just need to go...they are burnt out or are angry at life or are just plain incompetent. They whine about everything and offer little in terms of solutions. They feel like they are entitled to the respect afforded an "educator" when nothing in their work life would justify that respect.
Im sure your right. but isnt that the way just about every profession is though?

[vet93]

Yes...I would agree that most professions are the same. My comments regarding teachers were meant to be more of an observation than commentary. The one problem that I have with the bottom 25% is that they often represent themselves as being part of the top 25% when they have done very little to merit that kind of respect from their students, parents nor their peers for that matter.


Originally posted by Black_Magic
Im sure your right. but isnt that the way just about every profession is though?

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by vet93
Our problems in school have much more to do with societal problems and poor parenting than what the school systems are doing/or not doing. I am afraid that increased funding will not help this situation nor will the recent budget cuts and loss of classroom teachers hurt the problem as much as some would believe. It is kind of like a doctor doing surgery on the leg for a patient that has a brain tumor. While the tumor may cause the person not to be able to stand correctly, it has little to do with the leg and surgery will have no serious effect one way or the other.

In regards to teachers (My parents, sister, and multiple aunts, uncles inlaws and outlaws served as teachers, coaches and administrators...so I have been around this stuff alot), about 25% are exceptional educators and they stand well above the rest in fostering an environment that draws students to learn. 50% are competent individuals that do an adequate job but are primarily there to draw a paycheck and fund a retirement. This group generally does a good job but are not particularly inspiring except in situations where they bond with a particular student(s). The bottom 25% just need to go...they are burnt out or are angry at life or are just plain incompetent. They whine about everything and offer little in terms of solutions. They feel like they are entitled to the respect afforded an "educator" when nothing in their work life would justify that respect.




This is very well said. I echo the sentiment that throwing more money at the problem will not solve it. It needs to be fixed! In my humble opinion those top 25% or 50% of teachers will work to get the program on track and the other 50% will sit and bitch about the changes and feel sorry for themselves. And all the propaganda from teachers about the system not being bad needs to see where we rank in the civilized world as far as quality education is concerned. Haven't we dropped consistently over the past couple of decades? Sure the top 25% of students in America can compete with the students of any country but it sure seems to me that the bottome 50% are getting dumber and dumber..................... Maybe it just seems that way.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Im sure your right. but isnt that the way just about every profession is though?



Not really! Lousy employees don't normally last very long in the private sector.........

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Not really! Lousy employees don't normally last very long in the private sector.........

Um, have you ever worked in the private sector? I knew plenty of them during my private-employer days.

Its hard to find people who will put forth the effort to even show up to work. Unless you're dealing with employees who are stealing or are a danger to themselves or others within the organization, employers typically will not fire, particularly those who are struggling to keep employees.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Um, have you ever worked in the private sector? I knew plenty of them during my private-employer days.

Its hard to find people who will put forth the effort to even show up to work. Unless you're dealing with employees who are stealing or are a danger to themselves or others within the organization, employers typically will not fire.




Except for the past 5 years I have always worked in the private sector. Usually I was the employer and I never worked a lousy employee for a single day if I knew about them. A lot of them were the 50% "just adequate" that he was referring to but I repeat that LOUSY employees don't last very long. Most of them would take themselves out of the picture if the employer didn't. A no-show was always a "I quit" for me. A single lousy employee can destroy a business.

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by vet93
Our problems in school have much more to do with societal problems and poor parenting than what the school systems are doing/or not doing. I am afraid that increased funding will not help this situation nor will the recent budget cuts and loss of classroom teachers hurt the problem as much as some would believe. It is kind of like a doctor doing surgery on the leg for a patient that has a brain tumor. While the tumor may cause the person not to be able to stand correctly, it has little to do with the leg and surgery will have no serious effect one way or the other.

In regards to teachers (My parents, sister, and multiple aunts, uncles inlaws and outlaws served as teachers, coaches and administrators...so I have been around this stuff alot), about 25% are exceptional educators and they stand well above the rest in fostering an environment that draws students to learn. 50% are competent individuals that do an adequate job but are primarily there to draw a paycheck and fund a retirement. This group generally does a good job but are not particularly inspiring except in situations where they bond with a particular student(s). The bottom 25% just need to go...they are burnt out or are angry at life or are just plain incompetent. They whine about everything and offer little in terms of solutions. They feel like they are entitled to the respect afforded an "educator" when nothing in their work life would justify that respect.

I think you make many good points.

I want to address Farmer's quote about dumbest generation ever.

I think, in that statement, Farmer is right on and dead wrong at the same time. Let me see if I can explain that.

First, I do think the overall quality of the education has gone down. This has resulted in a lower quality student OVERALL. While many on here have pointed out legitimate reasons why, I think one that is paramount is that schools are required to teach kids that have no desire to be taught. We need to cease the mentality of 'No Kid Left Behind'. There are some that want to be left behind. As elitist as this may sound, our society is going to have stratification. Academic prowess is not different.

In Japan, kids choose a vocational or academic route around the 6th or 7th grade. This routes kids into areas of interest and aptitude.

Now, I think Farmer is wrong, because I do have children of school age and have the pleasure of being around many of their peers. There truly are some extraordinary kids out there these days. The level of scientific and technological knowledge some kids have now is far beyond what I had access to at the same age. So in that regard, Farmer is dead wrong.

So what I'm saying is that I think our educational structure needs a massive overhaul that biforcates kids into academic or vocational 'tracts' and actually teach kids what they WANT to learn. If someone doesn't want to go either route, it's up to their parents to figure out what to do with them.

[Macarthur]

Oh, and I think extracirricular activities need to be privatized.

[scrub c]

I hear all the complaints about how "bad" our educational system is... and surprisingly enough, even one offered a solution. (unlike the majority that slam education)

I laugh at the comment about asking kids about history or geography... You must have employed the news reporter after the tornado tactic... you know, go find the trailer park and the dude with no teeth and no shirt to get a comment from because he best represents the entire town...right?
Yeah, im gonna go to the mall and ask the kids hanging out busting a killer sag, and smoking cigarettes about history and geography... Im pretty sure I know what response you are gonna get.

but in the end, what i don't quite understand is - how is cutting funding going to improve it?

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Macarthur
I think you make many good points.

I want to address Farmer's quote about dumbest generation ever.

I think, in that statement, Farmer is right on and dead wrong at the same time. Let me see if I can explain that.

First, I do think the overall quality of the education has gone down. This has resulted in a lower quality student OVERALL. While many on here have pointed out legitimate reasons why, I think one that is paramount is that schools are required to teach kids that have no desire to be taught. We need to cease the mentality of 'No Kid Left Behind'. There are some that want to be left behind. As elitist as this may sound, our society is going to have stratification. Academic prowess is not different.

In Japan, kids choose a vocational or academic route around the 6th or 7th grade. This routes kids into areas of interest and aptitude.

Now, I think Farmer is wrong, because I do have children of school age and have the pleasure of being around many of their peers. There truly are some extraordinary kids out there these days. The level of scientific and technological knowledge some kids have now is far beyond what I had access to at the same age. So in that regard, Farmer is dead wrong.

So what I'm saying is that I think our educational structure needs a massive overhaul that biforcates kids into academic or vocational 'tracts' and actually teach kids what they WANT to learn. If someone doesn't want to go either route, it's up to their parents to figure out what to do with them.




I can agree with this. The top half of the students in this country are head and shoulders ahead of the top half of the kids 50 years ago as far as understanding and utilizing the technology that is available to them. But isn't this more the result of the technology they grow up with or how society functions now rather than the educational system? In a head to head comparison I don't think there is a comparison. But how do you feel kids today stack up if you compare the gap between the top percentile vs. the bottom percentile or if we could actually measure the level of intelligence when balanced against the efforts and resources expended to provide the education? It just seems to me that kids a few generations back obtained a level of maturation and ability to acclimate to society so much easier than today. And this is a GENERAL statement and isn't intended to refer to any one particular kid so please nobody bring up little Johnny. (or the few kids that hung out with your child).
Great subject though!

[pancho villa]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I can agree with this. The top half of the students in this country are head and shoulders ahead of the top half of the kids 50 years ago as far as understanding and utilizing the technology that is available to them. But isn't this more the result of the technology they grow up with or how society functions now rather than the educational system? In a head to head comparison I don't think there is a comparison. But how do you feel kids today stack up if you compare the gap between the top percentile vs. the bottom percentile or if we could actually measure the level of intelligence when balanced against the efforts and resources expended to provide the education? It just seems to me that kids a few generations back obtained a level of maturation and ability to acclimate to society so much easier than today. And this is a GENERAL statement and isn't intended to refer to any one particular kid so please nobody bring up little Johnny. (or the few kids that hung out with your child).
Great subject though!

Once again you are wrong a few generations ago all the kids that did not like school quit. Now they must stay, and they pull down all our good kids. "No child left behind" is a joke, the bad kids pull down our good ones, more than the other way around. It is hard enough for the good kids without having to drag the losers along!!!!!!!

[scrub c]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
It just seems to me that kids a few generations back obtained a level of maturation and ability to acclimate to society so much easier than today.

once again, many factors involved - most of which are OUT OF EDUCATORS HANDS...

50 years ago, the majority of parents taught their children about having good morals and values, to respect others, and to work hard... Kids went to school, reinforced those teachings from home, and learned a few things along to way.

Those type of parents are getting to be fewer and fewer... and the education system is catching all the grief from that fallout. IMO

[pancho villa]

To many parents out there that have been on dope, and spit out losers for children!

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by scrub c
once again, many factors involved - most of which are OUT OF EDUCATORS HANDS...

50 years ago, the majority of parents taught their children about having good morals and values, to respect others, and to work hard... Kids went to school, reinforced those teachings from home, and learned a few things along to way.

Those type of parents are getting to be fewer and fewer... and the education system is catching all the grief from that fallout. IMO




I agree completely. I have never put the blame on the "educators". But that doesn't change any of the facts. Our educational system has to work for the society that we have rather than the one we HAD. We can't keep pumping money into a system that isn't working well and blaming the parents for not acting like parents did 50 years ago. we need a system that works well with 2011 parents. And I don't think the "PEOPLE" involved in the education are to blame overall either. But they are immersed in the system neck deep and if the system is to ever be changed the people will also have to change.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by pancho villa
To many parents out there that have been on dope, and spit out losers for children!




Define "Losers"!

After you do I would bet that 100 years ago a much, much higher percentage of the population would fall into that definition.

[Txbroadcaster]

I wish for once somone would provide proof kids were better 50 years ago and Parents were better and the world was so much of a better place

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I wish for once somone would provide proof kids were better 50 years ago and Parents were better and the world was so much of a better place



I seem to remember that the 60's are considered as one of the worst decades in the history of this country for society. Everything about the younger generation then was about anti-Government, anti-America, and anti-establishment.

[pancho villa]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I agree completely. I have never put the blame on the "educators". But that doesn't change any of the facts. Our educational system has to work for the society that we have rather than the one we HAD. We can't keep pumping money into a system that isn't working well and blaming the parents for not acting like parents did 50 years ago. we need a system that works well with 2011 parents. And I don't think the "PEOPLE" involved in the education are to blame overall either. But they are immersed in the system neck deep and if the system is to ever be changed the people will also have to change.

And tell me o wise one. What needs to be changed?? I hear a lot of folks on here saying we have to quit throwing money at the problem. Well what do we need to do? Give me one solution.

[Ernest T Bass]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I seem to remember that the 60's are considered as one of the worst decades in the history of this country for society. Everything about the younger generation then was about anti-Government, anti-America, and anti-establishment.

So was the generation that brought on the American Revolution.:D

[pancho villa]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Define "Losers"!

After you do I would bet that 100 years ago a much, much higher percentage of the population would fall into that definition.

They are the kids who don't bother to try in school, and disrupt the learning environment of the other students.

Oh yeah "All children can learn" "No child left behind" BS!

[Ernest T Bass]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I Our educational system has to work for the society that we have rather than the one we HAD.

Thanks for posting this. Kinda needed to hear(read) that, today.

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I agree completely. I have never put the blame on the "educators". But that doesn't change any of the facts. Our educational system has to work for the society that we have rather than the one we HAD. We can't keep pumping money into a system that isn't working well and blaming the parents for not acting like parents did 50 years ago. we need a system that works well with 2011 parents. And I don't think the "PEOPLE" involved in the education are to blame overall either. But they are immersed in the system neck deep and if the system is to ever be changed the people will also have to change.

I agree completely that the model of education we currently have is outdated.

I think the example I gave is something that could be considered. The other thing you have to consider is the sheer population numbers. We have double the number of people in the country that we had in 1950. That is no small variable.

I also think it's not entirely true to use the 'Loser' label. There were tons of 'losers' and drunk dads in the 50s. It's just because of the doubling of our population, it seems like there's more, which there is in sheer numbers. I'm not sure that really the case when you look at it as a percentage of the population.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Macarthur


I also think it's not entirely true to use the 'Loser' label. There were tons of 'losers' and drunk dads in the 50s. It's just because of the doubling of our population, it seems like there's more, which there is in sheer numbers. I'm not sure that really the case when you look at it as a percentage of the population.

bingo...just like the whole teenage pregnancy rates..they look worse now because MORE are pregnant, but when you break it down per 100 the rates are actually lower now than in the 50's and 60's.

10% of a million is going to be less than 10% of 10 million but the actual true number is the same

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Look. I hear over and over about failing schools and bad teachers and its always comes from those who dont really know about what goes on in school. The major problems that education has to deal with start at home. Lack of parents holding the kids feet to the fires so to speak . many many kids go to school because the must. Its the law. they dont want to . thier mom and dad dont really care with exception to the fact that if the kid does not go they will be fined and put in jail. SO, the kids go but dont really care and dont try. Mom and dad dont either so they dont queston or push the kid. In the old days, 60s 70s 80s these kids dropped out . NOT today. they are forced to stay till 18 so they just come and serve time. it pulls test scores down and makes it look like the school is not doing its job. Look you can want it for them all you want but if they dont want it and mom and dad dont care then its over...

We often dont agree on things, but you are dead on with this BM. Society is mostley to blame for the failure of this generation. This education system we have is also part of that society, and is partially to blame, but the huge bulk of the problem begins at home.

[pancho villa]

Originally posted by STANG RED
We often dont agree on things, but you are dead on with this BM. Society is mostley to blame for the failure of this generation. This education system we have is also part of that society, and is partially to blame, but the huge bulk of the problem begins at home.

If our education system is to blame at all how our many kids succeding?

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by pancho villa
And tell me o wise one. What needs to be changed?? I hear a lot of folks on here saying we have to quit throwing money at the problem. Well what do we need to do? Give me one solution.




So is it your assertion that I have to know how to fix it before I can express an opinion that it needs to be fixed? That would eliminate a whole lot of conversation on here if it were the case.

[pancho villa]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
So is it your assertion that I have to know how to fix it before I can express an opinion that it needs to be fixed? That would eliminate a whole lot of conversation on here if it were the case.

So you can critize public education just because YOU think it is failing our kids? Give me an example how educators broke it. Wait a minute we are FORCED to teach the TAKS, STARR, or what ever is next. Our supreme Texas leg. needs to allow teachers to teach and not spoon feed them one test. I guess that is all the teachers fault.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by STANG RED
We often dont agree on things, but you are dead on with this BM. Society is mostley to blame for the failure of this generation. This education system we have is also part of that society, and is partially to blame, but the huge bulk of the problem begins at home.



We can't fix what "Free" people do in their own homes or the attitudes that they have. But we also can't continue to fund a services system that was designed for a different mindset and then blaming the parents (society) because it isn't working like we want. Isn't that a little like a family with 10 kids blaming their Mazda Miata because they can't take a family drive? The car doesn't fit the family just as the education system doesn't fit this society. That's not a slam on those good folks doing their best in that system. I am just surprised that it does work at all based on what the poor teachers have to work with and how they are paid.

[LIONS#1]

It would be nice to seperate Schools from the government. The government always screws everything UP!!:nerd:

[BEAST]

In my opinion, this is a two fold problem. I totally agree that there are more parents today that are not engaged in their childrens lives like they should be. I think the high divorce rate has something to do with it. I also think the fact that most moms are now forced to work so the family can make ends meet has something to do with it. Couple that with the other parents who dont give a crap what their kids do and you get about 50% of the kids today just dont give a ****.

The second part is the way the teachers are being forced to teach. This standardized testing is complete crap. It takes teachers who were once very creative in how they taught and makes them robots. Because of this, kids that where once very engaged because they had really neat, good teacher, become disengaged because frankly, its boring as hell.

Thats my .02.




BEAST

[scrub c]

I'm not thinking outside the box today. So help me out here...

What would a school system that works for 2011-12 and beyond (our current society) look like. How would it "fit" todays student better? Because that is what I think I'm hearing, "the old way of educating kids" tell me a little about the "new way" to educate kids. Think about it, you could make a billion dollars off your idea here...

[BEAST]

Originally posted by scrub c
I'm not thinking outside the box today. So help me out here...

What would a school system that works for 2011-12 and beyond (our current society) look like. How would it "fit" todays student better? Because that is what I think I'm hearing, "the old way of educating kids" tell me a little about the "new way" to educate kids. Think about it, you could make a billion dollars off your idea here...

This sounds very harsh. But in my opinion, we've got to get rid of the noodle spine we currently have and get one made of steel. We, as a society, are so soft its pathetic. The fox will continue to run the hen house until somebody slaps the hell out of the fox. If a kid dont want to learn, set him or her in the hall and continue teaching. That kid can set there the whole year for all I care. Heck, give him a handheld gaming device that way hed be quite and forget about him. At some point we have got to teach the kids its THEIR CHOICE to either fish or cut bait. Meaning they can choose to be a top feeder of bottom feeder. Either way, let them know we are patting you on the back no more if you are not trying.




BEAST

[scrub c]

Originally posted by BEAST
This sounds very harsh. But in my opinion, we've got to get rid of the noodle spine we currently have and get one made of steel. We, as a society, are so soft its pathetic. The fox will continue to run the hen house until somebody slaps the hell out of the fox. If a kid dont want to learn, set him or her in the hall and continue teaching. That kid can set there the whole year for all I care. Heck, give him a handheld gaming device that way hed be quite and forget about him. At some point we have got to teach the kids its THEIR CHOICE to either fish or cut bait. Meaning they can choose to be a top feeder of bottom feeder. Either way, let them know we are patting you on the back no more if you are not trying.




BEAST


BEAST,
I agree, but that is the "old school" way of education. You want to be a clown, come up here and get your knuckles hammered with the ruler! Or step out in the hall and the board of education will help you with your learning disability...

I want to know what educational system fits today's society... since this one doesn't fit or work in today's society...

[GreenMonster]

Originally posted by Macarthur
Oh, and I think extracirricular activities need to be privatized. C'mon Mac, you're killing me here! lol I don't think privatization is the way to go, but a pay to play system could work. Privatization of HS sports would kill many small towns in Texas that revolve around the school and school functions. I can see where it would work out just fine for the urban schools, but many small schools and the students/communities that they serve would be devastated by such a change. When you really look at what extracurriculars cost per student it is a drop in the bucket. Then when you compare that cost back to the benefits that the extracurriculars provide for everyone not just the participants and you will find that those benefits far outweigh the costs.

[BEAST]

Originally posted by scrub c
BEAST,
I agree, but that is the "old school" way of education. You want to be a clown, come up here and get your knuckles hammered with the ruler! Or step out in the hall and the board of education will help you with your learning disability...

I want to know what educational system fits today's society... since this one doesn't fit or work in today's society...


It would work if tried again. We have gone way to soft and feeling sorry for everybody. If they dont want to learn, dont teach them.




BEAST

[garciap77]

Originally posted by BEAST
In my opinion, this is a two fold problem. I totally agree that there are more parents today that are not engaged in their childrens lives like they should be. I think the high divorce rate has something to do with it. I also think the fact that most moms are now forced to work so the family can make ends meet has something to do with it. Couple that with the other parents who dont give a crap what their kids do and you get about 50% of the kids today just dont give a ****.

The second part is the way the teachers are being forced to teach. This standardized testing is complete crap. It takes teachers who were once very creative in how they taught and makes them robots. Because of this, kids that where once very engaged because they had really neat, good teacher, become disengaged because frankly, its boring as hell.

Thats my .02.




BEAST :iagree:

We need to eliminate all the tests required by the Government; this would save millions.

[garciap77]

Originally posted by BEAST
This sounds very harsh. But in my opinion, we've got to get rid of the noodle spine we currently have and get one made of steel. We, as a society, are so soft its pathetic. The fox will continue to run the hen house until somebody slaps the hell out of the fox. If a kid dont want to learn, set him or her in the hall and continue teaching. That kid can set there the whole year for all I care. Heck, give him a handheld gaming device that way hed be quite and forget about him. At some point we have got to teach the kids its THEIR CHOICE to either fish or cut bait. Meaning they can choose to be a top feeder of bottom feeder. Either way, let them know we are patting you on the back no more if you are not trying.




BEAST

I really like your idea, but would rather have the parents come pick up the kid and take him home, it’s their problem and the parents need to fix it.

[BEAST]

Works for me.




BEAST

[GreenMonster]

Originally posted by BEAST
This sounds very harsh. But in my opinion, we've got to get rid of the noodle spine we currently have and get one made of steel. We, as a society, are so soft its pathetic. The fox will continue to run the hen house until somebody slaps the hell out of the fox. If a kid dont want to learn, set him or her in the hall and continue teaching. That kid can set there the whole year for all I care. Heck, give him a handheld gaming device that way hed be quite and forget about him. At some point we have got to teach the kids its THEIR CHOICE to either fish or cut bait. Meaning they can choose to be a top feeder of bottom feeder. Either way, let them know we are patting you on the back no more if you are not trying.




BEAST

There you have it. I think you actually found the root of what is wrong. Teachers quite honestly cannot do what is right for all and push that kid out in the hall because of LEGISLATION. Teachers do not have the freedom to teach their class as they see fit because of LEGISLATION. Teachers can no longer lean on the "Board of Education" (paddle) to maintain order in their classroom because of LEGISLATION. Teachers can no longer refer to the Bible to teach students morals because of LEGISLATION. Special Ed students are no longer treated as special due to LEGISLATION requiring "inclusion" where they are required to be placed in regular ed classes. I don't care if you are the greatest teacher in the world, you can only go as fast as your slowest student can go and placing these kids in regular ed only slows the process even more. It's not the model that is wrong, it's the LEGISLATION that pulled all of the teeth out of the model that is wrong. The model for educating students is still a very effective model. It is a model that is still in use today in the private schools across the state. The very same private schools that our LEGISLATORS send their children to. The very same private schools that our LEGISLATORS are squawking about allowing vouchers for. The differences between public schools and private schools are as follows: Private schools have not had their teaching model LEGISLATED out from underneath their feet. Private schools can choose their own clientele where public schools must admit everyone. Private school students are better equipped to be educated as most, if not all, of their parents place a high value on education. So to sum it up, Private schools have kept the LEGISLATORS out of their education model and public schools have been devastated by poor legislation over the last 50 years. Now the LEGISLATORS that created the beast that is public education as we klnow it today are realizing how screwed up it has become and instead of swallowing their pride and saying "Hey, we screwed up. We need to fix this." they are pointing fingers and lining up to wash their hands of public education all together.

[CenTexSports]

The problem of NCLB is that there is a vast difference not only from school district to school district but an even bigger difference from state to state. I have attached an article that I was quoted in based on testimony I gave to the 21st Century Presidential workforce Commission when I lived in Mississippi. Look at the statistics on the job applicants that are given.

http://www.allbusiness.com/technology/891001-1.html

There is no easy answer to be had but reading, writing and math must be the first priority. Maybe there should be two sets of standards, one for college bound students and one for those targeting a job that does not require a college degree. They tried this in Mississippi and I don't think it was very successful but there might be another way to approach it.

[scrub c]

:thumbsup:

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by CenTexSports
The problem of NCLB is that there is a vast difference not only from school district to school district but an even bigger difference from state to state. I have attached an article that I was quoted in based on testimony I gave to the 21st Century Presidential workforce Commission when I lived in Mississippi. Look at the statistics on the job applicants that are given.

http://www.allbusiness.com/technology/891001-1.html

There is no easy answer to be had but reading, writing and math must be the first priority. Maybe there should be two sets of standards, one for college bound students and one for those targeting a job that does not require a college degree. They tried this in Mississippi and I don't think it was very successful but there might be another way to approach it.



As another measure to this perhaps a 3rd choice would be a type of trade school environment where students who choose to not try in the acedemic fields can be placed to learn a trade. Little Johnny needs to know early on that he will be educated ONLY to the point that he wants to. But then again these students will simply become another drain on society when they get out and start drawing welfare. So then welfare will need to be adjusted. Any able-bodied American who draws a Government check should work for the Government. We pay contractors and full time employees billions to mow grass, paint center strips and remove poop from the side walks. Why can't welfare receipients do that? So if those rejects from the school systems want to hoe weeds on the highways their whole life then so be it. Their ONLY other option should be to starve.................. (well that is a bit harsh but you get my drift)

[OldBison75]

The reality is that our education system is plagued by the same problems that haunt our society. Many people have a belief that they are entitled to an education (diploma) just because they pay taxes. Just like many people are living under the belief that their government should feed, house, and support them because they are entitled to government assistance.

There are many of you on here that make good points, both for change and for the problems out school districts are having. Let me put a few ideas out there for discussion:

1. The school districts no longer have the right to totally deny admission to a student living in their district. No matter what the kid does, criminal or disruptive, the school has to find a way to keep that kid in school by creating alternative campuses or classes. A huge number of kids will spend the majority of a school year in these programs by choice. Should these kids be taking education dollars from the kids that want to learn? Why not have a three strikes policy or something to that effect? If a kid continually causes disruption or refuses to adhere to a conduct standard, how can they be weeded out of the system?

2. As part of the no child left behind issue, how many dollars per year does your school district spend on busing kids to school? In my school district that number is astounding because any kid can ride the bus. In a district with about 900 high school kids, there are 24 bus routes. 10 of those routes never leave city limits. An average of 300 kids per day ride the bus less than one mile to home. Many of the parents of these kids can be seen everyday driving a better car than I have and buying lottery tickets and have no full-time work. However, they can't get up in the morning and take their kids to school. How much money could your district save by requiring that students living within a certain distance from the school pay for bus service if they want to use it?

3. How much money does your district spend on AP and College prep courses? The reality is that these classes are a necessity because of the TAKS (or whatever) testing system confines the ability of teachers to teach with innovative and expanded lesson plans. School districts have had to hire extra teachers to teach these classes so that the kids that want and education are not trapped in the "test prep" classes. Granted, in some cases the same teachers teach both regular and AP courses, but in some districts the two levels of education are taught by separate teachers. Many of the kids in our schools take the lower level classes to make better grades and don not take advantage of the advanced classes that are offered. If the argument by the no child left behind idea is to provide an equal educational opportunity, then why are we providing two levels of education within the same district?

4. Are our school discipline problems a reflection of the society we live in? How many school paid employees are there in your district that have a primary function of dealing with discipline issues? In many districts there are assistant principals that have a primary function of discipline. Do you have school police officers? Do you realize that they are paid either directly by your school or the city is reimbursed for their pay? Most districts also pay for training and equipment, including a vehicle and fuel for the school police or resource officer.
It is a shame to me that our society has gotten so bad that many schools have to have one or more police officer on campuses all of the time. Even elementary schools have police officers on campus.

I could go on forever, but the reality I am trying to point out is that the education system, taken out of local control, is now a direct reflection of our society. A government system that does not care about the product it puts out as much as it does about trying to make the most voters happy.
As a rule, the majority of teachers are there for the right reasons and really want to teach the children. So don't put the blame on them. The blame starts at the local school board level and grows tremendously with each level of government that has a hand in the system. Give the local district back the power of choice and discipline. Let them weed out the troublemakers that drain the system, streamline the courses that they choose to teach in their district, and if there have to be state tests, make them on basic math, reading and writing skills. If a kid can read at a basic level, write well enough to fill out a job education, and do basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, then they should be able to pass the required tests. In my day there were classes called "Related Math", which we called retarded math, that were very basic. If a kid wanted to be better educated they took algebra and calculus.

Make parents make the choice on what education track they choose for their kids and then hold the parent and kid responsible for the results of the kid and his behavior and participation. Set a standard that lets everyone know that if you cannot conform to the rules and at least show some effort to be a productive student, you will be left behind because you will no longer be part of the program, but you will be expelled or suspended from the district.

I'M THROUGH RANTING NOW!!!!!

[scrub c]

god rant.