I'm sorry Rick

[TheDOCTORdre]

DIrk Top 10 of all time? (http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=6514530)

Dirk is good but nowhere near being a Top 10 in league history

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by TheDOCTORdre
Dirk Top 10 of all time? (http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=6514530)

Dirk is good but nowhere near being a Top 10 in league history

that link goes to an email

Bill Simmions was talking about Dirk on his podcast today and he brought up he is the most under aprreciated NBA player of this generation especially how killer he is in the play offs

I do think by the time Dirk is done he will be top 10 or on the cusp of it.

[TheDOCTORdre]

i believe I fixed the link

[coach]

Originally posted by TheDOCTORdre
i believe I fixed the link

call me crazy but he is prob better than larry bird. dirk dint play 16 hall of famers .....

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by coach
call me crazy but he is prob better than larry bird. dirk dint play 16 hall of famers .....


that was basically Simmions point( and if you read or listen to him he is a die hard Celtic homer and Bird is a god to him)...he stopped short of saying he was good as Bird but said Dirk never had the talent around him like Jordan, Bird and Magic did

[BEAST]

Top 10 is arguable. But he's damn good. Think of the Mavs without him the last 8-10 years. He's up there on the list.




BEAST

[Old Tiger]

Dirk isn't even a top 50 player IMO.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
Dirk isn't even a top 50 player IMO.

You will after he gets a ring this year....;)

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
You will after he gets a ring this year....;) Lets be serious its a thunder/heat final

[Buckeye1980]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
Dirk isn't even a top 50 player IMO.


Name 50 better?

[BEAST]

Ive always thought Dirk was a great player. He has become a much better all around player the last few years. As an offensive player, he is not flashy and pretty like MJ, Magic, etc. What he is, is a match up nightmare. 7'0" who can shoot 3's with the best of them. He can also beat you off the dribble. Or, he can post up. So, covering him is a catch 22. If you put a big on him, he will step out and shoot. If you put a smaller guy on him, he just goes inside. And finally, he isnt trying or feeling like he has to do it all. He commanded so much defensive attention in game 4 it left all those shooters open. He made some great passes to them and it led to big win.




BEAST

[eagles_victory]

My top 10 is as of now
1. Jordan
2. The Big O
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem
5. Wilt
6. Kobe
7. Magic
8. Larry
9. Shaq
10. Tim Duncan

Dirk is top 20

Top 5 underrated players of all time: (not the order of how good they are as a player but the most underrated ones)

1. John Stockton
2. Alex English
3. Dirk
4. D Wade
5. Moses Malone

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by Buckeye1980
Name 50 better?

Not in order...numbers are just to keep track

1 Michael Jordan
2 Larry Bird
3 Magic Johnson
4 Jerry West
5 Tim Duncan
6 Charles Barkley
7 Shaquille O'Neal
8 Kobe Bryant
9 LeBron James
10 Dwight Howard
11 Hakeem Olajuwon
12 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
13 Wilt Chamberlain
14 Bill Russell
15 Oscar Robertson
16 Julius Erving
17 Karl Malone
18 Moses Malone
19 Bob Cousy
20 Rick Barry
21 Patrick Ewing
22 Dennis Rodman
23 John Stockton
24 Jason Kidd
25 Isiah Thomas
26 Bob Pettit
27 Robert Parish
28 Elvin Hayes
29 John Havlicek
30 Hal Greer
31 George Gervin
32 Clyde Drexler
33 Scottie Pippen
34 Elgin Baylor
35 Kevin Garnett
36 Dolph Schayes
37 Walt Frazier
38 Steve Nash
39 Allen Iverson
40 Willis Reed
41 Dmonique Wilkins
42 Ray Allen
43 Reggie Miller
44 Dwayne Wade
45 Kevin Durant
46 Derrick Rose
47 Tony Parker
48 Chris Paul



So I can only name 48 my bad

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
Not in order...numbers are just to keep track

1 Michael Jordan
2 Larry Bird
3 Magic Johnson
4 Jerry West
5 Tim Duncan
6 Charles Barkley
7 Shaquille O'Neal
8 Kobe Bryant
9 LeBron James
10 Dwight Howard
11 Hakeem Olajuwon
12 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
13 Wilt Chamberlain
14 Bill Russell
15 Oscar Robertson
16 Julius Erving
17 Karl Malone
18 Moses Malone
19 Bob Cousy
20 Rick Barry
21 Patrick Ewing
22 Dennis Rodman
23 John Stockton
24 Jason Kidd
25 Isiah Thomas
26 Bob Pettit
27 Robert Parish
28 Elvin Hayes
29 John Havlicek
30 Hal Greer
31 George Gervin
32 Clyde Drexler
33 Scottie Pippen
34 Elgin Baylor
35 Kevin Garnett
36 Dolph Schayes
37 Walt Frazier
38 Steve Nash
39 Allen Iverson
40 Willis Reed
41 Dmonique Wilkins
42 Ray Allen
43 Reggie Miller
44 Dwayne Wade
45 Kevin Durant
46 Derrick Rose
47 Tony Parker
48 Chris Paul



So I can only name 48 my bad Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Ray Allen, Derrick Rose, Dennis Rodman, Tony Parker, Robert Parish, and Jason Kidd are all laughable to say they are better than Dirk

[coach]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
Not in order...numbers are just to keep track

1 Michael Jordan
2 Larry Bird
3 Magic Johnson
4 Jerry West
5 Tim Duncan
6 Charles Barkley
7 Shaquille O'Neal
8 Kobe Bryant
9 LeBron James
10 Dwight Howard
11 Hakeem Olajuwon
12 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
13 Wilt Chamberlain
14 Bill Russell
15 Oscar Robertson
16 Julius Erving
17 Karl Malone
18 Moses Malone
19 Bob Cousy
20 Rick Barry
21 Patrick Ewing
22 Dennis Rodman
23 John Stockton
24 Jason Kidd
25 Isiah Thomas
26 Bob Pettit
27 Robert Parish
28 Elvin Hayes
29 John Havlicek
30 Hal Greer
31 George Gervin
32 Clyde Drexler
33 Scottie Pippen
34 Elgin Baylor
35 Kevin Garnett
36 Dolph Schayes
37 Walt Frazier
38 Steve Nash
39 Allen Iverson
40 Willis Reed
41 Dmonique Wilkins
42 Ray Allen
43 Reggie Miller
44 Dwayne Wade
45 Kevin Durant
46 Derrick Rose
47 Tony Parker
48 Chris Paul



So I can only name 48 my bad

dennis rodman and willis reed? serously lol

[TheDOCTORdre]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
You will after he gets a ring this year....;)

wasn't he supposed to get a ring in 2006;)

[Saggy Aggie]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Ray Allen, Derrick Rose, Dennis Rodman, Tony Parker, Robert Parish, and Jason Kidd are all laughable to say they are better than Dirk Steve Nash won 2 MVPs and got 2nd another year, right? Or something like that? 3 MVPs?


IDK how you could make the argument that Dirk IS better than Nash?

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by Saggy Aggie
Steve Nash won 2 MVPs and got 2nd another year, right? Or something like that? 3 MVPs?


IDK how you could make the argument that Dirk IS better than Nash? You can't win with Steve Nash in the playoffs Nash is also the only league MVP (there have been 29 of them) to never play in an NBA finals Nash has 2 MVPs Dirk has 1. One of Nash's MVP seasons he averaged 15 points and 11 assist which is widely considered one of the weakest leage MVP seasons in league history. Dirk has been the best played on a 50 win team for 11 straight years only 3 teams have won 50 straight games for that many years in league history. In Nash's I believe 7 seasons in PHX they have missed the playoffs twice. Nash has never averaged more than 18 points a game. If you want to go by the MVP argument Nash is better than Kobe and Dirk and just as good as Lebron and that is laughable.

Then there is the eye test just watch both guys careers I have watched both guys for most of their career eye test is definitely in favor of Dirk.

[coach]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
You can't win with Steve Nash in the playoffs Nash is also the only league MVP (there have been 29 of them) to never play in an NBA finals Nash has 2 MVPs Dirk has 1. One of Nash's MVP seasons he averaged 15 points and 11 assist which is widely considered one of the weakest leage MVP seasons in league history. Dirk has been the best played on a 50 win team for 11 straight years only 3 teams have won 50 straight games for that many years in league history. In Nash's I believe 7 seasons in PHX they have missed the playoffs twice. Nash has never averaged more than 18 points a game. If you want to go by the MVP argument Nash is better than Kobe and Dirk and just as good as Lebron and that is laughable.

Then there is the eye test just watch both guys careers I have watched both guys for most of their career eye test is definitely in favor of Dirk.

the real question is who has the better hair?

[injuredinmelee]

I spit water all over my monitor and keyboard when i read the top 50 list. While I dont think he is a top 10 player of all time I do think he has to be somewhere close to 25.

[big daddy russ]

Before I start, let me say that I agree with the statement that Dirk's the most underrated player of this generation. I think we've put too much emphasis on a ring rather than the player, how he performs, and how he elevates the play of the team around him. EV said it best--do they pass the eye test?

But top ten all-time? I'd rank KG and Timmy a hair above Dirk on the all-time list, and it gets so crowded there in the top 25 that the difference between #25 and #6 is almost negligible.

Did Dirk really suffer from inferior teammates? Because I don't see the argument there.

LeBron played with a bare cupboard in Cleveland, Kobe in LA post-Shaq, and Pippen when Jordan thought he could play baseball.

When Cubes took over the team, he put Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Nick Van Exel, Juwan Howard, etc on the same court as Dirk. They could always score (that may have been the most offensively talented team since the Showtime Lakers), but they couldn't get the stops they needed to get over the hump. They've swapped their aging pieces for younger ones through the years--Van Exel for JET, Finley for Josh Howard for Caron, Nash for Devin Harris for Jason Kidd, etc, etc--but through it all they were All-Star-caliber players running in a system designed to flaunt their talents.

Dirk's a lot like Michael Jordan. They've always been surrounded with talent. Let's throw that argument out the window, and just say that Dirk was one of the four best post players (Shaq, Timmy D, KG) of his generation and in the argument (Timmy, KG, Bob Petit, Barkley, Malone, and Wes Unseld if you want to group him in as a forward instead of a center--apologies to Kevin McHale) for best PF of all time.


Originally posted by eagles_victory
You can't win with Steve Nash in the playoffs Nash is also the only league MVP (there have been 29 of them) to never play in an NBA finals Nash has 2 MVPs Dirk has 1. One of Nash's MVP seasons he averaged 15 points and 11 assist which is widely considered one of the weakest leage MVP seasons in league history. Dirk has been the best played on a 50 win team for 11 straight years only 3 teams have won 50 straight games for that many years in league history. In Nash's I believe 7 seasons in PHX they have missed the playoffs twice. Nash has never averaged more than 18 points a game. If you want to go by the MVP argument Nash is better than Kobe and Dirk and just as good as Lebron and that is laughable.

Then there is the eye test just watch both guys careers I have watched both guys for most of their career eye test is definitely in favor of Dirk.
It's also a loaded question. One's a point guard, the other's a post. Tough to compare the two based on team success.

Same reason Oscar Robertson will never get his due as (easily) a top ten player of all time. Also the same reason people's memory of how great Derrick Rose is will fade with the years unless he gets some help in his quest for a title. Same thing that happened to Gary Payton. Same thing that will happen to Jason Kidd.

All these guys (and it will happen to Rose in the near future) had people at some point in their career questioning if they were the greatest PG's of all time. But in history, the ones most fondly remembered were the Big O, Magic, and Isaiah. Two of those guys were the lynchpin to championship teams. One was one of the most freakishly-gifted players to ever set foot on the hardwood.

[Emerson1]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
Dirk isn't even a top 50 player IMO.
lol

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Before I start, let me say that I agree with the statement that Dirk's the most underrated player of this generation. I think we've put too much emphasis on a ring rather than the player, how he performs, and how he elevates the play of the team around him. EV said it best--do they pass the eye test?

But top ten all-time? I'd rank KG and Timmy a hair above Dirk on the all-time list, and it gets so crowded there in the top 25 that the difference between #25 and #6 is almost negligible.

Did Dirk really suffer from inferior teammates? Because I don't see the argument there.

LeBron played with a bare cupboard in Cleveland, Kobe in LA post-Shaq, and Pippen when Jordan thought he could play baseball.

When Cubes took over the team, he put Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Nick Van Exel, Juwan Howard, etc on the same court as Dirk. They could always score (that may have been the most offensively talented team since the Showtime Lakers), but they couldn't get the stops they needed to get over the hump. They've swapped their aging pieces for younger ones through the years--Van Exel for JET, Finley for Josh Howard for Caron, Nash for Devin Harris for Jason Kidd, etc, etc--but through it all they were All-Star-caliber players running in a system designed to flaunt their talents.

Dirk's a lot like Michael Jordan. They've always been surrounded with talent. Let's throw that argument out the window, and just say that Dirk was one of the four best post players (Shaq, Timmy D, KG) of his generation and in the argument (Timmy, KG, Bob Petit, Barkley, Malone, and Wes Unseld if you want to group him in as a forward instead of a center--apologies to Kevin McHale) for best PF of all time.


It's also a loaded question. One's a point guard, the other's a post. Tough to compare the two based on team success.

Same reason Oscar Robertson will never get his due as (easily) a top ten player of all time. Also the same reason people's memory of how great Derrick Rose is will fade with the years unless he gets some help in his quest for a title. Same thing that happened to Gary Payton. Same thing that will happen to Jason Kidd.

All these guys (and it will happen to Rose in the near future) had people at some point in their career questioning if they were the greatest PG's of all time. But in history, the ones most fondly remembered were the Big O, Magic, and Isaiah. Two of those guys were the lynchpin to championship teams. One was one of the most freakishly-gifted players to ever set foot on the hardwood.

I 1000% disagree about the talent around Dirk..I think the system of Don Nelson created the scoring over they were so talented they could score.

Look at the Lakers in their past couple of titles..you have a guy like Lamar Odom who could have been THE guy on alot of teams..take away Dirk and who would be the guy and be good?

Andrew Bynum on any other team would be the 2nd scoring option..on the Lakers he is what 3rd or 4th?

Pau Gasol is a 4 time all star, a rookie of the year and is the 2nd option when again he on most teams would be the first( I call him a poor man's Dirk).

One of the main reason the LAkers got swept was how Gasol played..Kobe got his normal points, but Gasol struggled and it showed IMO his worth to the team

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I 1000% disagree about the talent around Dirk..I think the system of Don Nelson created the scoring over they were so talented they could score.

Look at the Lakers in their past couple of titles..you have a guy like Lamar Odom who could have been THE guy on alot of teams..take away Dirk and who would be the guy and be good?

Andrew Bynum on any other team would be the 2nd scoring option..on the Lakers he is what 3rd or 4th?

Pau Gasol is a 4 time all star, a rookie of the year and is the 2nd option when again he on most teams would be the first( I call him a poor man's Dirk).

One of the main reason the LAkers got swept was how Gasol played..Kobe got his normal points, but Gasol struggled and it showed IMO his worth to the team
Disagree all you want. Finley, Juwan Howard, and Nash were All-Stars outside of Nellie's system. Finley and Juwan were 20 PPG players in half court systems. They were studs with or without Nellie and Dirk.

Odom was the only post-Shaq Laker out of that group, and he has a decade-long resume that proves to us he was never capable of being THE guy, no matter how insanely talented he is. When Odom was their number two, they were awful. That's the era I was talking about...when Kobe was taking the top-seeded Suns to seven games every year, dropping 60 a game every night for months on end, getting railed for it in the press, and going up against a loaded Western Conference that included these Mavs every single night.

Odom's a fantastic number three or four, a terrible number two. All of Pippen's talent, none of his ability to put it together to win a few games. I'd only call him a poor man's Pippen if Pippen was afraid of his own shadow.

Pippen single-handedly led an overmatched team to 55 wins. Odom singlehandedly led the Clippers. That is all.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Disagree all you want. Finley, Juwan Howard, and Nash were All-Stars outside of Nellie's system. Finley and Juwan were 20 PPG players in half court systems. They were studs with or without Nellie and Dirk.


Finley was a 2 time all star both under Nellie.he finished at 15 ppg in his career.all of his 20 ppg came seasons came as a MAverick..when he left Dallas his first seas as a Spur he averaged all of 10 ppg and never got higher than that the rest of his career

..Howard played all of three years with Dallas( only two in his prime one was 17 PPG other 12 PPG)..in fact Howard averaged over 20 ppg ONCE in his career and finished as a 14 ppg player and was an all star ONCE

Nash flourised under both Nelson and The Suns system of run and gun and is a stud at PG.

[coach]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Before I start, let me say that I agree with the statement that Dirk's the most underrated player of this generation. I think we've put too much emphasis on a ring rather than the player, how he performs, and how he elevates the play of the team around him. EV said it best--do they pass the eye test?

But top ten all-time? I'd rank KG and Timmy a hair above Dirk on the all-time list, and it gets so crowded there in the top 25 that the difference between #25 and #6 is almost negligible.

Did Dirk really suffer from inferior teammates? Because I don't see the argument there.

LeBron played with a bare cupboard in Cleveland, Kobe in LA post-Shaq, and Pippen when Jordan thought he could play baseball.

When Cubes took over the team, he put Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Nick Van Exel, Juwan Howard, etc on the same court as Dirk. They could always score (that may have been the most offensively talented team since the Showtime Lakers), but they couldn't get the stops they needed to get over the hump. They've swapped their aging pieces for younger ones through the years--Van Exel for JET, Finley for Josh Howard for Caron, Nash for Devin Harris for Jason Kidd, etc, etc--but through it all they were All-Star-caliber players running in a system designed to flaunt their talents.

Dirk's a lot like Michael Jordan. They've always been surrounded with talent. Let's throw that argument out the window, and just say that Dirk was one of the four best post players (Shaq, Timmy D, KG) of his generation and in the argument (Timmy, KG, Bob Petit, Barkley, Malone, and Wes Unseld if you want to group him in as a forward instead of a center--apologies to Kevin McHale) for best PF of all time.


It's also a loaded question. One's a point guard, the other's a post. Tough to compare the two based on team success.

Same reason Oscar Robertson will never get his due as (easily) a top ten player of all time. Also the same reason people's memory of how great Derrick Rose is will fade with the years unless he gets some help in his quest for a title. Same thing that happened to Gary Payton. Same thing that will happen to Jason Kidd.

All these guys (and it will happen to Rose in the near future) had people at some point in their career questioning if they were the greatest PG's of all time. But in history, the ones most fondly remembered were the Big O, Magic, and Isaiah. Two of those guys were the lynchpin to championship teams. One was one of the most freakishly-gifted players to ever set foot on the hardwood.

I usually agree with you russ but here is why i dont on this topic.


Since Dirk has led the Mavs to 11 straight 50 win teams people claim he has never had help. And for the most part yhey were right. You claim to list 7 players that were all star caliber players. Here are some numbers for you.

Michael Finely- 2x all-star as a Maverick- 2000,2001. Those were really before Dirk was Dirk

Steve Nash- 2x all star 2002, 2003 Probably the best player Dirk ever played with but with Nellie's coaching style Wilt, Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Oscar Robinson would have a tough time winning a championship.

Josh Howard- 2007 and that was due to an injury so they let him on the team as an alternate. And need i say more about his departure in Dallas

Juwan Howard- Once and that was in 1996. I believe Dirk was about 15

Nick Van Exel- Once and that was in 1998. Dirk received his first kiss while watching that all star game.

Devin Harris- They traded him for J kidd and the next year he was an all star

Caron Butler- 2007-2008 and Dirk is doing this with out him.


So Dirk has played with Finley (who was so one dimensional he it drove me crazy) Nash, and Josh Howard.




Now Jordan had a hall of famer, Bird had several, Magic had several Kobe had one.


Dirk may not be in the top 10 but you could esaily argue he is pretty close.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Finley was a 2 time all star both under Nellie.he finished at 15 ppg in his career.all of his 20 ppg came seasons came as a MAverick..when he left Dallas his first seas as a Spur he averaged all of 10 ppg and never got higher than that the rest of his career
He could still score in the halfcourt set just as effectively as the open court. Could get to the bucket, finish at the rim, hit threes, played a little bit of defense, and had a nice mid-range game.

He was a good, athletic player who was well into his 30's when he switched jerseys. And being that Tony, Manu, and Beno Udrich, were SA's slashing guards when Finley arrived, his role changed and he was used more for his mid-range game than ever before.

Good comparison would be Jason Richardson minus a little of the athleticism, but with a better shooting touch.


Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
..Howard played all of three years with Dallas( only two in his prime one was 17 PPG other 12 PPG)..in fact Howard averaged over 20 ppg ONCE in his career and finished as a 14 ppg player and was an all star ONCE

Nash flourised under both Nelson and The Suns system of run and gun and is a stud at PG.
But they got Juwan in his prime. They always had Cubes' money and always had players in their prime. Just look at their annual payrolls the last ten years.

YEAR/PAYROLL/(RANK)
2011 $90.8M (2nd)
2010 $75.5M (8th)
2009 $97.5M (1st)
2008 $105M (1st)
2007 $92.8M (3rd)
2006 $97.9M (2nd)
2005 $87.4M (2nd)
2004 $79.3M (3rd)
2003 $79.7M (3rd)
2002 $56.5M (4th)


They aren't the little sisters of the poor. Since Cubes came on in 2000, they've had (and spent) the money to bring in top-flight talent.

Juwan could score with his back to the basket, which was an art that Dirk was still learning at the time, and brought some toughness and versatility to complement Dirk at forward.

Agreed 100% on Nash. Point guards who see the court like Nash are always most effective (they can attack more) in a wide-open system.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
Dirk may not be in the top 10 but you could esaily argue he is pretty close.
Definitely. Like I said, the difference between the number 6 player of all time and the number 25 player is negligible. You could throw Dirk anywhere in the top 25 and it'd be valid.

The one point I'd disagree with you on is Dirk's early career, which is what I was arguing. That was an insane team. The only other team in the league with that type of talent was Portland. Juwan had game and a mean streak. Nash was slick. Finley was a hell of a player. Where he hurt the team was when he got frustrated or flustered. He dominated the ball and fell in love with going right.

[Emerson1]

The Knicks have also had some of the highest pay rolls. Cuban has no problem spending more then what a player is worth. Terry is making 10.5 million this season and Marion will be making 8 mil well past his prime.

[eagles_victory]

Never understood using All Star Games so much to judge talent All Stars are judged by the first half of the season 5/12 of the team is fan voted so good players aren't going to make the All Star Team you can't just say look at the All Stars on Dirks team he has no talent.

It goes back to the eye test if you watched these Mavs teams all through the Dirk era you see that he has had talent around him. Sure Finley did nothing in San Antonio he was completely finished that is like judging Jordan for what he did as a Wizard. Terry is a microwave off the bench he can carry the offense when he is on. You can't forget how lights out Nick Van Exel was in some of those playoff runs. Dirks talent around him is far superior to what guys like Lebron in Cleveland or Wade for a good portion of his run in Miami ever had around them. Keep in mind Lebron took a team to the finals with Larry Hughes, Sasha Pavalovic, Drew Gooden, and the human statue Big Z to the finals. Dirk has never played with anything comparable to that as far as lack of talent.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Never understood using All Star Games so much to judge talent All Stars are judged by the first half of the season 5/12 of the team is fan voted so good players aren't going to make the All Star Team you can't just say look at the All Stars on Dirks team he has no talent.

It goes back to the eye test if you watched these Mavs teams all through the Dirk era you see that he has had talent around him. Sure Finley did nothing in San Antonio he was completely finished that is like judging Jordan for what he did as a Wizard. Terry is a microwave off the bench he can carry the offense when he is on. You can't forget how lights out Nick Van Exel was in some of those playoff runs. Dirks talent around him is far superior to what guys like Lebron in Cleveland or Wade for a good portion of his run in Miami ever had around them. Keep in mind Lebron took a team to the finals with Larry Hughes, Sasha Pavalovic, Drew Gooden, and the human statue Big Z to the finals. Dirk has never played with anything comparable to that as far as lack of talent.

never meant to say Dirk had NO talent around him, I am saying Dirk did not have Champion Caliber talent

Yes Lebron carried a team to the finals..he also did it in a year when the East was TERRIBLE..one team made the play-offs with a below .500 record and another made it with exactly .500

You mention Dwayne Wade..perfect example..when he had some legit talent around him they won a title..when he did not they have been average to terrible.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
never meant to say Dirk had NO talent around him, I am saying Dirk did not have Champion Caliber talent

Yes Lebron carried a team to the finals..he also did it in a year when the East was TERRIBLE..one team made the play-offs with a below .500 record and another made it with exactly .500

You mention Dwayne Wade..perfect example..when he had some legit talent around him they won a title..when he did not they have been average to terrible. Dirk had more talent around him in that final than D Wade did. Dirk has had enough talent around him to win a championship.

[coach]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Dirk had more talent around him in that final than D Wade did. Dirk has had enough talent around him to win a championship.

dwade had the officials and shaq on his side

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by coach
dwade had the officials and shaq on his side Shaq was already in decline at that point. Sure the officiating wasn't great but the Mavs got pucnhed in the face and never responded that is on them.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Yes Lebron carried a team to the finals..he also did it in a year when the East was TERRIBLE..one team made the play-offs with a below .500 record and another made it with exactly .500

Same guy who just made the argument in the Rangers thread how it doesn't matter what the record of the rest of the division is. If it doesn't discredit the Rangers run to the World Series like Farmersfan was saying how can you flip it and try to discount Lebron and the Cavs run to the finals can't play both sides of the coin.

[coach]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Shaq was already in decline at that point. Sure the officiating wasn't great but the Mavs got pucnhed in the face and never responded that is on them.

o yea and dwade didnt have avery johnson coaching them

[waterboy]

Just throwing this out there:

Do you think coaching may have something to do with Dirk not having a ring yet?

Dirk has always had "enough" talent around him, but I'm not sure the coaching has always been there. I think, finally, this year they have both. We'll see if it turns into a ring for the veterans on this team. I know that this year Dirk is playing better, and has a more rounded game than I think he has ever had in the past. Other than Michael Jordan himself, I wouldn't trade Dirk for anybody else in the league at this juncture in his career.

EIGHT more wins, Mavs!:clap:

[Buckeye1980]

Might not mean much and I hope I am not wrong , but I believe the stat I heard was there were only FOUR players in league history that have averaged 20+ plus points and 10+ rebounds in career playoff games, and Dirk was one of them. And yet some some he is not one of the top 50 players of all time? Some people just do not get it....:thinking:

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Buckeye1980
Might not mean much and I hope I am not wrong , but I believe the stat I heard was there were only FOUR players in league history that have averaged 20+ plus points and 10+ rebounds in career playoff games, and Dirk was one of them. And yet some some he is not one of the top 50 players of all time? Some people just do not get it....:thinking:
Yes, they mentioned that stat on the last telecast. He IS one of the greatest players of all time. Where he fits into the rankings doesn't really matter to me. The only thing that matters to me is getting that ring.

[themsu97]

being a homer, I cannot believe that some of you do not have Hakeem in the top 10... and he is clearly better than Dirk...
Dirk is top 25... for many years he was seen as soft, whether that was true or not is debatable...

as far as I see it, rings have nothing to do with it... John Sally and Robert Horry have more than Barkley and Malone but they are not better players...
in my opinion Dirk is better than Scottie Pippen...

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Same guy who just made the argument in the Rangers thread how it doesn't matter what the record of the rest of the division is. If it doesn't discredit the Rangers run to the World Series like Farmersfan was saying how can you flip it and try to discount Lebron and the Cavs run to the finals can't play both sides of the coin.


not discounting...the Rangers did not play a team in the play offs with a .500 record..the Cavs did TWICE in 4 rounds.


And I never argued the validity of the division title..In fact I said it did not matter how many wins it takes to win a division as long as they did. FF and I were talking about how many wins it would take is all

[Emerson1]

Originally posted by themsu97
being a homer, I cannot believe that some of you do not have Hakeem in the top 10... and he is clearly better than Dirk...
Dirk is top 25... for many years he was seen as soft, whether that was true or not is debatable...

as far as I see it, rings have nothing to do with it... John Sally and Robert Horry have more than Barkley and Malone but they are not better players...
in my opinion Dirk is better than Scottie Pippen...
"Soft" aka white.

[Emerson1]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Shaq was already in decline at that point. Sure the officiating wasn't great but the Mavs got pucnhed in the face and never responded that is on them.
Shaq now would own Erik Dampier and Diop.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by themsu97
being a homer, I cannot believe that some of you do not have Hakeem in the top 10... and he is clearly better than Dirk...
Dirk is top 25... for many years he was seen as soft, whether that was true or not is debatable...

as far as I see it, rings have nothing to do with it... John Sally and Robert Horry have more than Barkley and Malone but they are not better players...
in my opinion Dirk is better than Scottie Pippen...
Hakeem's in my conversation. But a lot of people don't remember how good he was or were too young to watch him. The dismantling of David Robinson (and my Spurs) right after D-Rob won the league MVP? That spin move he had? The Dream Shake? That guy was unreal...a forward in a center's body. In an era of great centers (something we haven't seen since), he was the best.

Easiest way I put it to my younger friends is this....
Dwight Howard is a poor man's David Robinson. I know, hard to believe because he's the end-all be-all in the pivot today, but it's true. All the athleticism, all the defense, all the ability to track the basketball, and none of the offensive game.

David Robinson was always considered the "prototypical center" throughout his career, gave Patrick Ewing and Alonzo Mourning nightmares, and Robinson was a step below Hakeem.

[coach]

fyi Dirk is 1 of only 4 players EVER to average 25 points 10 rebounds in his career in the playoffs

[coach]

and remember when dallas was ousted by denver a couple years ago....yea he only averaged 34 and 11 but then i guess he didnt play so well in the 2008 playoffs when they lost to the hornets bc he just averaged 26 and 12

[themsu97]

but numbers in the playoffs to some people mean nothing... TMac actually has better playoff stats than regular season stats, and he is considered soft and not a great player...

I think if Dirk played in New York, Boston or LA he would have higher regard...

and as Hakeem, only Kareem and Wilt could be considered a better center than him...
I remember him dismantling Robinson that night and what he did to Shaq was not even fair

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by themsu97
but numbers in the playoffs to some people mean nothing... TMac actually has better playoff stats than regular season stats, and he is considered soft and not a great player...

I think if Dirk played in New York, Boston or LA he would have higher regard...

and as Hakeem, only Kareem and Wilt could be considered a better center than him...
I remember him dismantling Robinson that night and what he did to Shaq was not even fair If he played in either of those cities he would be more highly scrutinized and more pressured.

[Emerson1]

Originally posted by coach
fyi Dirk is 1 of only 4 players EVER to average 25 points 10 rebounds in his career in the playoffs
He has something like 38 30+ point games in his playoff career.

[Farmersfan]

Offensively I don't think anyone can really think Dirk isn't a top player in the league. Although he has improved some in recent years his defense brings him way down in my opinion. If you averaged his Offensive ranking with his defensive ranking I think you would see he isn't in the top 25 and maybe not in the top 50. I think his "Soft" rep come from his defense as much as it does from his offense. A 7'+ player that swats at the ball around the waist of a 6' player is a defensive liability and yet I see Dirk do it all the time. I also see him bail out from under the basket to keep from getting smacked all the time. I might be making too much of it but that's just what i see.......

[Farmersfan]

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/playerstats/11/1/eff


Dirk power ranking #10

Dallas team:
Back court ranking #6
Front court ranking #&
Small Forward Ranking #7
Power forward Ranking #4
Center position ranking #15
Small Guard ranking #7
Point Guard rnaking #7


Seems to me Dirk has a ton of help!

[BEAST]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/playerstats/11/1/eff


Dirk power ranking #10

Dallas team:
Back court ranking #6
Front court ranking #&
Small Forward Ranking #7
Power forward Ranking #4
Center position ranking #15
Small Guard ranking #7
Point Guard rnaking #7


Seems to me Dirk has a ton of help!

Thats this years team. Hence, they swept the Lakers. Now that he has a good team around him, he doesnt have to try to do everything.




BEAST

[HEMOTOXIC]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Hakeem's in my conversation. But a lot of people don't remember how good he was or were too young to watch him. The dismantling of David Robinson (and my Spurs) right after D-Rob won the league MVP? That spin move he had? The Dream Shake? That guy was unreal...a forward in a center's body. In an era of great centers (something we haven't seen since), he was the best.

Easiest way I put it to my younger friends is this....
Dwight Howard is a poor man's David Robinson. I know, hard to believe because he's the end-all be-all in the pivot today, but it's true. All the athleticism, all the defense, all the ability to track the basketball, and none of the offensive game.

David Robinson was always considered the "prototypical center" throughout his career, gave Patrick Ewing and Alonzo Mourning nightmares, and Robinson was a step below Hakeem.

I have to agree... Hakeem was head and shoulders above David Robinson..One of the best centers to play the game!

And.....
5 Tim Duncan-- in my top 15 as a PF
6 Charles Barkley--- in my top 15 as a PF
7 Shaquille O'Neal-- Another one that Olajuwon schooled in the finals
8 Kobe Bryant-- good player... is probably a top ten of all time
9 LeBron James- good, but, hasn't won anything
10 Dwight Howard-- Hakeem teaches him during the off season... not even close to Olajuwon.

Being ahead of Hakeem... Maybe Kobe... Shaq is close, but IMO, Hakeem was far better... And again, it's hard to measure how great a player was playing in different era's and different positions.

[Buckeye1980]

jus wanted to bring this back to the top after Game 1 performance