Is it just me?

[PPHSfan]

Or is it ironic?

Some folks don't want pics shown that might infuriate Islam.

Some of the same folks that wanted all of Gitmo out in the open.

Strange to me.

[bobcat1]

And me. Kinda 2 faced, right?

[SintonFan]

I'm thinking it is very ironic. But makes sense to those who use emotions mostly instead of intelligent thought.

[Ernest T Bass]

It's all about what your agenda is, podnah. But, I reckon you knew that already ;)

[Daddy D 11]

Everything needs to be shown, about everything. The more transparent a government, the less likely it is to commit wrong doings. Knowing full well you will be held accountable for your actions is a great deterrent to imperial presidencies and/or administrations.

[Ernest T Bass]

Originally posted by Daddy D 11
Everything needs to be shown, about everything. The more transparent a government, the less likely it is to commit wrong doings. Knowing full well you will be held accountable for your actions is a great deterrent to imperial presidencies and/or administrations.

Well, it's a good thing we now have the most transparent administration ever! Most. Transparent. Administration. Ever!

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Or is it ironic?

Some folks don't want pics shown that might infuriate Islam.

Some of the same folks that wanted all of Gitmo out in the open.

Strange to me. Not really the same people unless all the Republicans who came forward were wanting Guantanamo illuminated. There is lots of military folk who have gone on shows with political pundits saying the same "I'll take the Seals word for it". In fact this is a weird issue as people on both side of the aisle are clamoring for it and also calling for it NOT to be shown. Kind of a macabre topic. Again, who are you trying to scare? People that blow themselves up? LOL The second in command is no where near the uniting force of UBL, in fact, he's seen as kind of a "RAT" to borrow from mafioso terminology. I think they're trying to keep it from becoming a distraction as Muslims are ACTUALLY embracing democracy in some places. I'm kind of astonished at the relative non-issue it is for many muslims right now. In fact, I'd say Syria slaughtering its citizens is a bigger issue along with HAMAS joining the Palestinian Govt.

[PPHSfan]

I'm by no means trying to rally for the pictures to be shown, I'm just pointing out an observation. I don't sit on either side of the isle, and as I've shown in the past, I will call you out, no matter what you views might be. I do, however, agree with the boogmeister for the most part here.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I'm by no means trying to rally for the pictures to be shown, I'm just pointing out an observation. I don't sit on either side of the isle, and as I've shown in the past, I will call you out, no matter what you views might be. I do, however, agree with the boogmeister for the most part here. You're a crazy man! ;)

I trust the boys working in the dark. Geronimo!

[Ernest T Bass]

Originally posted by DDBooger

I trust the boys working in the dark. Geronimo!

You racist!!!! That's offensive!!!! :mad:

[PPHSfan]

Just a thought off topic. I know we will never know who pulled the trigger, and for good reason, but I was thinking the other day. With the average age of a special-ops guy being around 24 yrs old, it's possible, that the man might have been as young as 10-11 when the hunt for Bin Laden began.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Just a thought off topic. I know we will never know who pulled the trigger, and for good reason, but I was thinking the other day. With the average age of a special-ops guy being around 24 yrs old, it's possible, that the man might have been as young as 10-11 when the hunt for Bin Laden began. Quite possibly. When I asked my class what they remember about the event, many of them really only remember how their parents reacted. Really hard to believe it has been a decade.

[sinton66]

Personally, I have no problem whatsoever taking the Seal Team's word for it. I don't need to see the pictures. Seal Team 6 is the best of the best.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by sinton66
Personally, I have no problem whatsoever taking the Seal Team's word for it. I don't need to see the pictures. Seal Team 6 is the best of the best.

STS could take out Chuck Norris!!

[TexMike]

I don't see anything to be gained from showing the photos. Those of us who believe he is dead don't need the photos to prove it. Those who don't will not believe the authenticity of the photos anyway.

The current argument by those officials for and against the release seems to be more about who is in charge than about the photo. If Bush was in charge now, many of those public officials arguing against the release would likely be arguing for it. Just like many of those who are arguing for it now would probably be against if Bush was in charge. It's about supporting "your guy" more than the actual photos.

For oversight, I don't see any problem with a "special panel" composed of some select folks from inside and outside the government, being briefed and shown the photos and any videos from the raid. Could include some elected folks from both sides, some judges, some previous cabinet members from Repub and Dem administrations, and some reps from non-governmental organizations, i.e. International Assn of Forensic Scientists, Red Cross, etc.

[Trashman]

in the end it doesn't matter....those who believe that he is still alive will claim the pictures were photo shopped. :thinking:

[trojandad]

i just dont understand the "its not who we are" verbage...of COURSE it isnt who we are, is our goal with them to show who we are?

in the 80's when hamas was kidnapping americans by the dozens in lebanon (reporters, politicians, clergy, etc) they kidnapped a russian embassy employee, and sent their usual ransom notice....the kgb kidnapped three muslim holy men, sent hamas a notice to return the staff member in 24 hours and when they didnt the russians didnt send offensive photos of a head shot, they sent one finger knuckle at a time in a box with a note that the next hour would be followed with the next knuckle....

not only did they release the russian immediately, the rest of the decade saw not one russian kidnapped while hundreds of americans and english disappeared over that time period...

of course i care about showing the high road if i can, but i first and foremost want my enemy to know exactly how i feel, that i will protect mine as firmly as i can and, should i offend someone, ill worry about that after whats mine is protected...many of the same people that say we should show the high road admit to this war with al qaida not being over.....shouldnt we wait till its over before our first regard is proper etiquette?

were fighting an enemy that sees a picture of a head shot differently than we do....were not fighting us, were fighting them.....we need to respond in a way that makes the most headway with them, not with us....keep the picture from our children, THATS how were different....

the same liberal types that fight to keep this photo hidden will fight to allow anything and everything shown on tv with the motto "if you dont like it for you or your kids, turn the channel"...well here it is back, show the photos, if its not your cup of tea, dont play mommy and daddy to us, just turn the channel...showing the photos to our enemy will have a good effect for us in THEIR eyes, a group of people that, if allowed, would parade our presidents head around their country on a stick with much personal pride.....

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by trojandad
i just dont understand the "its not who we are" verbage...of COURSE it isnt who we are, is our goal with them to show who we are?

in the 80's when hamas was kidnapping americans by the dozens in lebanon (reporters, politicians, clergy, etc) they kidnapped a russian embassy employee, and sent their usual ransom notice....the kgb kidnapped three muslim holy men, sent hamas a notice to return the staff member in 24 hours and when they didnt the russians didnt send offensive photos of a head shot, they sent one finger knuckle at a time in a box with a note that the next hour would be followed with the next knuckle....

not only did they release the russian immediately, the rest of the decade saw not one russian kidnapped while hundreds of americans and english disappeared over that time period...

of course i care about showing the high road if i can, but i first and foremost want my enemy to know exactly how i feel, that i will protect mine as firmly as i can and, should i offend someone, ill worry about that after whats mine is protected...many of the same people that say we should show the high road admit to this war with al qaida not being over.....shouldnt we wait till its over before our first regard is proper etiquette?

were fighting an enemy that sees a picture of a head shot differently than we do....were not fighting us, were fighting them.....we need to respond in a way that makes the most headway with them, not with us....keep the picture from our children, THATS how were different....

the same liberal types that fight to keep this photo hidden will fight to allow anything and everything shown on tv with the motto "if you dont like it for you or your kids, turn the channel"...well here it is back, show the photos, if its not your cup of tea, turn the channel...showing the photos to our enemy will have a good effect for us in THEIR eyes, a group of people that, if allowed, would parade our presidents head around their country on a stick with much personal pride..... My gosh your trying to paint this with a broad brush. Whole lotta conservatives and military types talking about not showing it. Perhaps it is your own fascination with wanting to see it? Again, who are you trying to scare? People who would gladly die? The KGB? Seriously? LOL Yeah, American exceptionalism mimicking what it fought against for decades. The enemies aren't the same. Your "Russians" had their heads handed to them (literally) in AFPAK. Quit making it a political soap box to stand on, I'm sure his joint chiefs weighed in on this and on the ground and in AFPAK. I heard just as many liberal pundits yesterday as conservative asking for it.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by DDBooger
My gosh your trying to paint this with a broad brush. Whole lotta conservatives and military types talking about not showing it. Perhaps it is your own fascination with wanting to see it. Again, who are you trying to scare? People who would gladly die? Quite making it a political soap box to stand on, I'm sure his joint chiefs weighed in on this and on the ground and in AFPAK. I heard just as many liberal pundits yesterday as conservative asking for it.

yes, im trying to scare those very ones, just like the russians did in the 80's....it works to a level....i dont care if i offend them, ill care about that when i dont have to worry about airplanes into buildings....

and yes, i broadbrushed by saying "liberal types", cause even many professing republicans and conservatives live in this "sensitive" world weve developed here and dont realize many times how they choose choices not really keeping with their overall outlook.....heck, even im guilty at times about living life outside of my convictions just because the constant bombardment of so many silly lifestyle inputs.....

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by trojandad
yes, im trying to scare those very ones, just like the russians did in the 80's....it works to a level....i dont care if i offend them, ill care about that when i dont have to worry about airplanes into buildings....I don't know if you understand how disassociated these human beings are from their own welfare, but that won't scare them. What it will do is provide them the necessary ammunition to rile up already disenfranchised young muslims. The very ones right now fighting for democracy in their nation. It's easy for you back at home to say, SO WHAT. But actions have consequences, it isn't your hide manning the line from fanatical individuals all the more wiling to lay down their life for a cause. It isn't as simple as mowing them down. These aren't human waves (Japanese). These are smart bombs(individuals). Seemingly unarmed people slipping into crowds detonating themselves. This isn't a "liberal" thing. It's basic PsyOps. Even Cheney talked about this very thing.


Originally posted by trojandad
Yes, i broadbrushed by saying "liberal types", cause even many professing republicans and conservatives live in this "sensitive" world weve developed here and dont realize many times how they choose choices not really keeping with their overall outlook Yes, I'm sure your outlook with all the knowledge available to you trumps all the intel they have.


Originally posted by trojandad
....heck, even im guilty at times about living life outside of my convictions just because the constant bombardment of so many silly lifestyle inputs..... Geez, you could almost transplant this quote to a Taliban leader.

[Ernest T Bass]

I'd like to see the pictures just b/c I enjoy stuff like that. Is that bad? :confused:

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
I'd like to see the pictures just b/c I enjoy stuff like that. Is that bad? :confused: It's honest. Trust me, once the Senators and people on the Intel committee start viewing it, it will get leaked by an aid.

[trojandad]

boog, i take no offense to these inflammatory rebuts for one big reason, i live my life knowing im a flawed man....every thing i believe could very easily be from the pit of hell....you cant be a believer if you think you have the wisdom of God.....i know im so full of faults and flaws i cant number them....

when you and i talk, somewhere in the talk i admit to possibly being wrong, youve never done it once, and thats the biggest difference.....its why i dont fire back on similarities with you and a talaban leader, because my base in my life is always "i could be wrong"....heck, i even admitted to possibly having a racist thought when im godfather to two black, wonderful children...

if you ever were able to show that side, that you could possibly ever be wrong, i could give you a lot more creedance, but as it is i just dont have the cahonies to believe for the slightest moment that my beliefs all are encompassing....well always have that chasm between us, im just not that arrogant at my core.....and its usually a requirement to believe we have beliefs greater than His....

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by trojandad
boog, i take no offense to these inflammatory rebuts for one big reason, i live my life knowing im a flawed man....every thing i believe could very easily be from the pit of hell....you cant be a believer if you think you have the wisdom of God.....i know im so full of faults and flaws i cant number them....

when you and i talk, somewhere in the talk i admit to possibly being wrong, youve never done it once, and thats the biggest difference.....its why i dont fire back on similarities with you and a talaban leader, because my base in my life is always "i could be wrong"....heck, i even admitted to possibly having a racist thought when im godfather to two black, wonderful children...

if you ever were able to show that side, that you could possibly ever be wrong, i could give you a lot more creedance, but as it is i just dont have the cahonies to believe for the slightest moment that my beliefs all are encompassing....well always have that chasm between us, im just not that arrogant at my core.....and its usually a requirement to believe we have beliefs greater than His.... AH, this descends into my arrogance and The Almighty. LOL You don't have the wrong idea per SE, but the audience you are suggesting we influence negatively won't see this rationally. While it would give you and me pause, they don't operate on the same plane of reality. The cold, calculated, mechanistic manner in which he was disposed of after 10 long years of fighting this war ITSELF sent a message to those toeing the line (not the already fundamentally devoted), there is no where we won't go. INCLUDING nuclear nations with hostile populations.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by DDBooger
AH, this descends into my arrogance and The Almighty. LOL You don't have the wrong idea per SE, but the audience you are suggesting we influence negatively won't see this rationally. While it would give you and me pause, they don't operate on the same plane of reality. The cold, calculated, mechanistic manner in which he was disposed of after 10 long years of fighting this war ITSELF sent a message to those toeing the line (not the already fundamentally devoted), there is no where we won't go. INCLUDING, nuclear nations with hostile populations.

i admitted my descent already.....:D next.....

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by trojandad
i admitted my descent already.....:D next..... LOL I admittedly thought the same, like when you smash a roach, you leave it there as a warning to others. :D

That said, dealing with these individuals is like playing chess. :nerd: You have to think 6 moves ahead.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by DDBooger
It's honest. Trust me, once the Senators and people on the Intel committee start viewing it, it will get leaked by an aid. oh it will be leaked Im sure of it. But the administrations view is that it should not.. somebody will leak it. Im sure the president and advisors anticipate it. bottom line will be that the government will try not to but then again the folks who want more proof will get it . it will serve both ends.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
Well, it's a good thing we now have the most transparent administration ever! Most. Transparent. Administration. Ever!

LOL, I do hope your joking.

Anyway, I could'nt care less if the photos are released or not. I'm not sure it would possitively prove anything one way or the other anyway. I was actually sent a pic on my phone, from a former navy seal. It looked kindof like Bin Laden, with a shot to his head, but I cant say for certain if it was or not. The guy may or may not be dead, only time will tell for sure. One way or the other, I'm not sure it really makes any difference anyway. We have killed many them, but there are many left to fill the holes I'm sure. Releasing the photos might just prod some who are on the fence to take up arms against us.

[Bullaholic]

Per my earlier post, I still don't care about the pics one way or another. I think OBL is dead and buried at sea---I don't think either side's cause would be helped by a fake death.

I believe that we will see the Taliban tribes accept a negotiated peace settlement in the near future, and Afghanistan will calm down a lot. I think Pakistan, however, has a real chance of becoming another Iran. I think Pakistan has been a bigger problem in our war on terror than we ever considered.

I think Gadahfi will step down in Libya soon out of fear for his life and a "sweet" package the U.S. will tender.

I think Israel will be targeted for a OBL "revenge" attack more than the U.S. because of the extreme hatred and close proximity of several radical Islamic nations currently experiencing rebellions.
Scoring a big counter-punch against Israel would be the highest profile operation to galvannize the radical Islamic world right now.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Per my earlier post, I still don't care about the pics one way or another. I think OBL is dead and buried at sea---I don't think either side's cause would be helped by a fake death.

I believe that we will see the Taliban tribes accept a negotiated peace settlement in the near future, and Afghanistan will calm down a lot. I think Pakistan, however, has a real chance of becoming another Iran. I think Pakistan has been a bigger problem in our war on terror than we ever considered.

I think Gadahfi will step down in Libya soon out of fear for his life and a "sweet" package the U.S. will tender.

I think Israel will be targeted for a OBL "revenge" attack more than the U.S. because of the extreme hatred and close proximity of several radical Islamic nations currently experiencing rebellions.
Scoring a big counter-punch against Israel would be the highest profile operation to galvannize the radical Islamic world right now. Israel can handle them selves just fine. Let them take over for a while.

[BEAST]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Israel can handle them selves just fine. Let them take over for a while.


Ive said that a million times. If we would get out of there and take the stupid handcufs off of Israel, this would be over rather quickly. Israel dont mess around and they are not worried about "rules" when it comes to dealing with the radical muslims. They have to do it everyday. Let them finish it.




BEAST

[Pendragon13]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Just a thought off topic. I know we will never know who pulled the trigger, and for good reason, but I was thinking the other day. With the average age of a special-ops guy being around 24 yrs old, it's possible, that the man might have been as young as 10-11 when the hunt for Bin Laden began. I'd say the average age is a little higher than that, you don't go into spec ops straight out of high school...and most of them don't make it on their first try. They say the hardest part of making the cut is not physical but mental...and that would favor a guy that is 25-30. The age limit for the SEAL tryouts is 38 iirc....and you would be surprised how many guys 30 and over go for it..

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by BEAST
Ive said that a million times. If we would get out of there and take the stupid handcufs off of Israel, this would be over rather quickly. Israel dont mess around and they are not worried about "rules" when it comes to dealing with the radical muslims. They have to do it everyday. Let them finish it.




BEAST They got their tails handed to them when they thought they could walk into Lebanon in 2006. A paramilitary group stopped Tanks and infantry cold and lost a frigate to a Chinese made, Iranian supplied Silkworm. They fired a few military leaders over that. They can destroy conventional forces, but since the Yom Kippur war, most these nations wouldn't dare approach them in that manner. They'll get drawn into an urban killzone and get waited out. Israelis are best behind the cloak (Mossad).

[MUSTANG69]

Originally posted by Pendragon13
I'd say the average age is a little higher than that, you don't go into spec ops straight out of high school...and most of them don't make it on their first try. They say the hardest part of making the cut is not physical but mental...and that would favor a guy that is 25-30. The age limit for the SEAL tryouts is 38 iirc....and you would be surprised how many guys 30 and over go for it..

If you want a good idea about the training that Seals go through read Marcus Luttrell's Lone Survivor. Excellent read.

[BEAST]

Originally posted by DDBooger
They got their tails handed to them when they thought they could walk into Lebanon in 2006. A paramilitary group stopped Tanks and infantry cold and lost a frigate to a Chinese made, Iranian supplied Silkworm. They fired a few military leaders over that. They can destroy conventional forces, but since the Yom Kippur war, most these nations wouldn't dare approach them in that manner. Israelis are best behind the cloak (Mossad).

What I mean is we (our leaders) need to tell them do whatever you need to do. We constantly hold them back. Give them support in the form of anything they need and turn them loose.




BEAST

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by BEAST
What I mean is we (our leaders) need to tell them do whatever you need to do. We constantly hold them back. Give them support in the form of anything they need and turn them loose.




BEAST That is a common misconception. They are not our puppets. They act autonomously and against our wishes quite often. One of their most ardent critics is Ron Paul and plenty of people in the CIA are not fond of their method of getting our interests entangled with theirs when they act unilaterally. Though, this may change as Israelis are learning that they can spend less by having their own arms dealers rather than buying American. Of course, the high tech stuff is still primarily American, most of their ground forces are supplied with Israeli armament.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by BEAST
What I mean is we (our leaders) need to tell them do whatever you need to do. We constantly hold them back. Give them support in the form of anything they need and turn them loose.




BEAST

I don't think Israel could subdue the entire Islamic world without our help, beast. That means a huge regional conflict that would probably end up costing us and Israel many times more than Afghanistan and Iraq combined. Plus, the economic impact of the loss of oil shipments would be catastrophic given our current dependence on foreign oil.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
I don't think Israel could subdue the entire Islamic world without our help, beast. That means a huge regional conflict that would probably end up costing us and Israel many times more than Afghanistan and Iraq combined. Plus, the economic impact of the loss of oil shipments would be catastrophic given our current dependence on foreign oil. BINGO...we'd love to leash them up and quite frankly, the only reason they haven't struck sooner at Iranian nuclear facilities is because we have probably issued them our STERNEST warnings along with assurances that we would use alternative methods (computer worm that destroyed the computer systems running the centrifuges). The impact on global fuel prices could sink the world into quite a pickle.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
................ The impact on global fuel prices could sink the world into quite a pickle.

And if you've never been sunk into a pickle, let me tell you from experience. It's not a pretty sight my friend.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
They got their tails handed to them when they thought they could walk into Lebanon in 2006. A paramilitary group stopped Tanks and infantry cold and lost a frigate to a Chinese made, Iranian supplied Silkworm. They fired a few military leaders over that. They can destroy conventional forces, but since the Yom Kippur war, most these nations wouldn't dare approach them in that manner. They'll get drawn into an urban killzone and get waited out. Israelis are best behind the cloak (Mossad).

one of the biggest misconceptions of 06 is that they got whooped..it was as many have said a military victory for Israel but a PR win for Hezbollah

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
And if you've never been sunk into a pickle, let me tell you from experience. It's not a pretty sight my friend.

My wife won't let me eat pickles because she says the way I eat them makes her blush. :confused:

[trojandad]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
one of the biggest misconceptions of 06 is that they got whooped..it was as many have said a military victory for Israel but a PR win for Hezbollah

right on the nose, broadcaster....

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
one of the biggest misconceptions of 06 is that they got whooped..it was as many have said a military victory for Israel but a PR win for Hezbollah Naturally, they crippled the infrastructure with a superior air force and at times indiscriminate bombing and alleged use of cluster bombs. On the ground, Hezbollah did stop a few columns. Which was all they had to do. Slow it down enough to let Israel lose the PR war.

[trojandad]

dont you agree, though, that if you see israel slow down for anything its usually from american pressure from behind closed doors? i mean there are so many examples of them cleaning house and taking names that when they go at a battle half assed it sure doesnt look like they are fighting unfettered....

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by trojandad
dont you agree, though, that if you see israel slow down for anything its usually from american pressure from behind closed doors? i mean there are so many examples of them cleaning house and taking names that when they go at a battle half assed it sure doesnt look like they are fighting unfettered.... LOL Israel does what it wants. It is not big enough to fight protracted wars. They fight with lightning ferocity. What happened in 06 was a Gen. In charge of the war felt they could win it w/o the use of ground forces. They couldn't. When they sent the troops in they were not expecting to be slowed down. Hezbollah had been waiting for this war, they sacrificed the welfare of their countrymen to appear as Lebanons only savior. Worked too, they became a much bigger part of the govt. What instance are you specifically speaking about that we "stopped" them?

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
LOL Israel does what it wants. It is not big enough to fight protracted wars. They fight with lightning ferocity. What happened in 06 was a Gen. In charge of the war felt they could win it w/o the use of ground forces. They couldn't. When they sent the troops in they were not expecting to be slowed down. Hezbollah had been waiting for this war, they sacrificed the welfare of their countrymen to appear as Lebanons only savior. Worked too, they became a much bigger part of the govt. What instance are you specifically speaking about that we "stopped" them?

the one negative aspect for Israel is they have such a small population they would never last any sustained war..If there is every that end all war between them and the rest of the Middle East we would have to help them or they would use nukes.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
the one negative aspect for Israel is they have such a small population they would never last any sustained war..If there is every that end all war between them and the rest of the Middle East we would have to help them or they would use nukes. Yup, per our plan during the cold war in the event of the Warsaw powers invading West Germany. Tactical nukes.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by DDBooger
LOL Israel does what it wants. It is not big enough to fight protracted wars. They fight with lightning ferocity. What happened in 06 was a Gen. In charge of the war felt they could win it w/o the use of ground forces. They couldn't. When they sent the troops in they were not expecting to be slowed down. Hezbollah had been waiting for this war, they sacrificed the welfare of their countrymen to appear as Lebanons only savior. Worked too, they became a much bigger part of the govt. What instance are you specifically speaking about that we "stopped" them?

just in that 06 battle as an example....you see it as a loss, no comment made by any nat'l spokesman after that believed hezbollah had any force, ground or otherwise, to stop them....if they were "stopped" its widely believed they were stopped behind closed doors.....smells like u.s. policy at work.....

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by trojandad
just in that 06 battle as an example....you see it as a loss, no comment made by any nat'l spokesman after that believed hezbollah had any force, ground or otherwise, to stop them....if they were "stopped" its widely believed they were stopped behind closed doors.....smells like u.s. policy at work..... LOL You're the first person I know who has given me that frame of reference. Yes, they destroyed much of Lebanon's infrastructure and in all likelihood, could have rolled over Lebanon and occupied it as they did in the 80s. Yet, how did that turn out for them? They bought themselves a broken country to occupy at great expense and sapped their ability to defend their homeland. Had they disregarded all concern for the lives of their men and Lebanese civilians they could have slogged it out with a well entrenched paramilitary force, but the cost was not worth the effort for them. As TXB also pointed out, they can't fight protracted wars. They stopped because Olmert didn't have the stomach nor will at home and abroad to endure that kind of black eye. High casualties, occupation, cost and what is seen as a much stronger nation inflicting punishment on a whole nation for the acts of a paramilitary force that if Israel couldn't just swat, the Lebanese army for damn sure could not. You speak of war with such ease and disregard, it's just not that simple.

[trojandad]

several good and some arguable points, but as for conversation on the point, the last person i spoke with on that issue was our us representative two years ago when we visited his office while visiting pennsylvania, it was his opinion that israel stopped due to internal pressure (hes not on any committee where he would have known for sure at the time).....its obviously not a far fetched idea to some educated individuals, irregardless of your talkin buds.....

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by trojandad
several good and some arguable points, but as for conversation on the point, the last person i spoke with on that issue was our us representative two years ago when we visited his office while visiting pennsylvania, it was his opinion that israel stopped due to internal pressure (hes not on any committee where he would have known for sure at the time).....its obviously not a far fetched idea to some educated individuals, irregardless of your talkin buds..... The facts just don't bare that out. We have a Pro-Israeli Congress (left and right), they lobby as hard as just about any special interest group through the American Jewry. What limited capacity we have to influence them is superseded by our representatives need for their dollars. America brokers for them, not so much stops or starts them. Tell an Israeli that we pull their strings and he'd hit you in the eye. On multiple occasions they've used visits from U.S. dignitaries as political capital to employ an unfavorable policy of which we had no knowledge or intent on supporting (W and BHO have both fallen victim to this). However, in order to not appear impotent with our global prestige, we generally stay mum or protect them from the rest of the U.N. security council.

[trojandad]

next........:D

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
The facts just don't bare that out. We have a Pro-Israeli Congress (left and right), they lobby as hard as just about any special interest group through the American Jewry. What limited capacity we have to influence them is superseded by our representatives need for their dollars. America brokers for them, not so much stops or starts them. Tell an Israeli that we pull their strings and he'd hit you in the eye. On multiple occasions they've used visits from U.S. dignitaries as political capital to employ an unfavorable policy of which we had no knowledge or intent on supporting (W and BHO have both fallen victim to this). However, in order to not appear impotent with our global prestige, we generally stay mum or protect them from the rest of the U.N. security council.

I do think they consult the USA and heed their view on issues more than your saying.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I do think they consult the USA and heed their view on issues more than your saying. Not pertaining to one of the most divisive issues which was building settlements in Palestinian territories. It's a lot easier to inform us of military action after a rocket strike than a settlement which violates intl law and agreements.

[Ernest T Bass]

I just wanna put the Bin Laden pics up next to my pics of Pablo Escobar, Hiroshima, and Saddam Hussein on my "Dont F with the USA" wall of honor.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Not pertaining to one of the most divisive issues which was building settlements in Palestinian territories. It's a lot easier to inform us of military action after a rocket strike than a settlement which violates intl law and agreements.

or we just sit by and go oh wow we did not know they were going to do that wow how bad lol

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
or we just sit by and go oh wow we did not know they were going to do that wow how bad lol LOL Possible. If that was the case, none of the Presidents would have even gambled their political clout in trying to achieve Peace.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
LOL Possible. If that was the case, none of the Presidents would have even gambled their political clout in trying to achieve Peace.

or they would have tried their best for peace because they dont want to admit they let them do what they do

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
or they would have tried their best for peace because they dont want to admit they let them do what they do I guess as long as we're speculating, perhaps they get their go ahead from little green men :D ;)

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
I guess as long as we're speculating, perhaps they get their go ahead from little green men :D ;)

Wow your calling Jewish people little green men???? :eek: :eek: :eek:

[TexMike]

Originally posted by trojandad
yes, im trying to scare those very ones, just like the russians did in the 80's....it works to a level....i dont care if i offend them, ill care about that when i dont have to worry about airplanes into buildings....


Let me get this straight...you think showing a photo of someone with a serious head wound will scare someone who is willing to fly a plane into a skyscraper or strap a bomb to himself and detonate it? ? ? ?

[AP Panther Fan]

Well apparently Al Qaeda is confirming his death. Maybe that will shut the nay-sayers up and the photo issue will go away.:thinking:

[trojandad]

Originally posted by TexMike
Let me get this straight...you think showing a photo of someone with a serious head wound will scare someone who is willing to fly a plane into a skyscraper or strap a bomb to himself and detonate it? ? ? ?

not some, no sir, we'll always have some that are just over the edge and unreachable, even if you had their families at knife point in front of them they wouldnt change a stitch....my point is how we appear to the general population over there....we give them the appearance that we are the a weak society....i cant find it but about 10 or 12 years ago (maybe more) time magazine wrote an article on how the overall opinion of america had gone down for america....they had seen an america in reagan that told iran basically "keep our hostages and watch what happens" to the one developed over the times late in his presidency on thru bush and clinton of being afraid to be as agressive with radicals as other countries, say russia....they had even started giving the usa a arabic feminine nickname, and we all know what the radicals feel about women....

in their eyes (again, not mine, not yours but the general population there) we dont respect ourselves enough to be respected by them (and yes, feared)...we need the minds and respect of the general population over there so the majority dont decide that the only "respectable" (in their terms) groups to follow are the radicals, who are worrying about their image with the general population there every single day....

when the pics came out of saddam hussein hanging on the end of the rope our image in the countries around iraq went up drastically....we in america have gotten away from "survival of the fittest" which exists in ALL third world countries, the very places that get volunteers to drive planes into buildings, we give the weakest in our society the best parking, the best seats at games, its a wonderful way to live, to give people that dont have equal blessings as the rest of us, but third world groups as a whole see that as a weak life....

over there people needing such assistance in life die, theres no help there, they look at it as "Gods will" and when we, in their eyes, fight this will, we presume ourselves superior to them, then to them we carry this on by, i.e., allowing people like saddam hussein to live for many years instead of just killing him like they would do if they had access to our planes, guns, etc.....

long story short, they don't get us, and swing their allegiances in large numbers to the groups they get, the ones that arent afraid of showing them death, they see death like we see stop signs, millions of times a day, and people in their society that would have a hard time seeing death are weak...

"weak" isnt a good image to have a group that can be persuaded to kill us see us as......

thats the reason id show them the photos and as many like them as i could show them...as for me, i agree with those out here (and even said myself) that once approvalratings drop so far, watch the powers that be "flip flop" on their unmoving ethics and show them in order to get a boost, or somebody will leak them....i could care less if i see them, ive seen men with head shots in real life and laugh at the people out here that believe i have some sick desire to see a pic of that again.....took me years to get over seeing it in my world....but sometimes people have to argue really silly points because their version of things are so weak....

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by trojandad
not some, no sir, we'll always have some that are just over the edge and unreachable, even if you had their families at knife point in front of them they wouldnt change a stitch....my point is how we appear to the general population over there....we give them the appearance that we are the a weak society....i cant find it but about 10 or 12 years ago (maybe more) time magazine wrote an article on how the overall opinion of america had gone down for america....they had seen an america in reagan that told iran basically "keep our hostages and watch what happens" to the one developed over the times late in his presidency on thru bush and clinton of being afraid to be as agressive with radicals as other countries, say russia....they had even started giving the usa a arabic feminine nickname, and we all know what the radicals feel about women....

in their eyes (again, not mine, not yours but the general population there) we dont respect ourselves enough to be respected by them (and yes, feared)...we need the minds and respect of the general population over there so the majority dont decide that the only "respectable" (in their terms) groups to follow are the radicals, who are worrying about their image with the general population there every single day....

when the pics came out of saddam hussein hanging on the end of the rope our image in the countries around iraq went up drastically....we in america have gotten away from "survival of the fittest" which exists in ALL third world countries, the very places that get volunteers to drive planes into buildings, we give the weakest in our society the best parking, the best seats at games, its a wonderful way to live, to give people that dont have equal blessings as the rest of us, but third world groups as a whole see that as a weak life....

over there people needing such assistance in life die, theres no help there, they look at it as "Gods will" and when we, in their eyes, fight this will, we presume ourselves superior to them, then to them we carry this on by, i.e., allowing people like saddam hussein to live for many years instead of just killing him like they would do if they had access to our planes, guns, etc.....

long story short, they don't get us, and swing their allegiances in large numbers to the groups they get, the ones that arent afraid of showing them death, they see death like we see stop signs, millions of times a day, and people in their society that would have a hard time seeing death are weak...

"weak" isnt a good image to have a group that can be persuaded to kill us see us as......

thats the reason id show them the photos and as many like them as i could show them...as for me, i agree with those out here (and even said myself) that once approvalratings drop so far, watch the powers that be "flip flop" on their unmoving ethics and show them in order to get a boost, or somebody will leak them....i could care less if i see them, ive seen men with head shots in real life and laugh at the people out here that believe i have some sick desire to see a pic of that again.....took me years to get over seeing it in my world....but sometimes people have to argue really silly points because their version of things are so weak....

the whole America is weak minded and will give up has been a belief for a LONG LONG TIME..Japan thought that..Korea thought that..Vietnam thought that..so releasing pics will not change that. The outside world views us thru our media and they will always think we wont fight when it comes down to it

[trojandad]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
the whole America is weak minded and will give up has been a belief for a LONG LONG TIME..Japan thought that..Korea thought that..Vietnam thought that..so releasing pics will not change that. The outside world views us thru our media and they will always think we wont fight when it comes down to it

sir, your right in your points, but so am i, if you read again im not personally arguing to release them....im making points of how those countries see that "protect the world from gruesome" attitude....you guys are so busy arguing why to not show them you arent seeing that im not arguing TO show them....merely stating how they look at us when we dont, our "superior" position to them, if you will....

the flip side of this argues people just want to see them to fill gruesome desires and they are right for some, not with others....i walked in on my roomate in college having shot his parents in the head and shooting himself likewise, so if anyone thinks i have a desire somewhere to see that again i laugh in their face....i just believe it would make points over there, and yes, when we showed those same types of pics in wwii to japan, in korea it did affect the population as a whole, terrible as they are....

[BEAST]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
the whole America is weak minded and will give up has been a belief for a LONG LONG TIME..Japan thought that..Korea thought that..Vietnam thought that..so releasing pics will not change that. The outside world views us thru our media and they will always think we wont fight when it comes down to it

The Emperor of Japan thought that. However, the Admiral that carried out the Pearl Harbor attack did not. He even argued against bringing us into the war. And, when the attack was over, he even said, "We've awakened a sleeping giant." He knew full well hell was coming.




BEAST

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BEAST
The Emperor of Japan thought that. However, the Admiral that carried out the Pearl Harbor attack did not. He even argued against bringing us into the war. And, when the attack was over, he even said, "We've awakened a sleeping giant." He knew full well hell was coming.




BEAST

not really true..that was a line from a movie and never attributed to Isoroku Yamamoto who felt that Japan could win a protracted war

[BEAST]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
not really true..that was a line from a movie and never attributed to Isoroku Yamamoto who felt that Japan could win a protracted war


Not going to argue with you. The only reason I brought it up is I just watched a deal on the History channel last week about the very topic. The Japanese historians are the ones that told the story that I used to explain in my previous post. I would assume Japans own historians might have better insight into the topic than you or I.




BEAST

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BEAST
Not going to argue with you. The only reason I brought it up is I just watched a deal on the History channel last week about the very topic. The Japanese historians are the ones that told the story that I used to explain in my previous post. I would assume Japans own historians might have better insight into the topic than you or I.




BEAST

i am not saying some in the Japan government thought the US could rise up..I am saying the famos quote has never been actually said.

[Bullaholic]

In the modern era, the Achilles Heel for American military involvement has been the number of casualties. America's enemies have always known that if they can cause American casualties, the public relations backlash is tough for the incumbent political party to handle.

Things have changed a lot in the modern theatre of combat operations. America's enemies know they have no chance in open military engagements so that is why they settle for "skirmishes", employ IED's, and guerilla warfare mixed in with indigenous populations.

If you notice, extreme care was taken to make sure there was absolutely almost no chance for the loss of American life during the Obama operation. In the future, due to the advancement of war technology, there will be almost no direct human envolment in high-risk combat operations, and therefore, no political backlash at home.

IMO, the U.S. has made our biggest mistakes in combat operations by supporting or taking out the wrong "bad" guys. I think we have been manipulated many times into making the wrong decisions based on bad "bait" intel.

[Black_Magic]

In some ways I think we( US MEDIA ) are too guarded with regards to footage of dead or wounded servicemen. I know its an effort of our government to keep images from us of the negative results of the wars but I kind of think if we saw more of the true results of this mess we would be more carefull about getting involved in places we should not be in ( IRAQ ) . Im not saying we should show the pics of binladen. But I think the media has been too guarded about showing the results of the conflics we are in. 31,000 wounded servicemen in Iraq and Nearly 5,000 dead . All for WMDs that we THOUGHT they had but didnt.

[BEAST]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
i am not saying some in the Japan government thought the US could rise up..I am saying the famos quote has never been actually said.

I am just going off of what their historians said. They said the Admiral argued against Pearl Harbor in a major way. Almost to the point of getting himself in trouble with the Emperor. Because of all of that, the historians believe, in fact, that he did say something along the lines of that famous quote.




BEAST

[BEAST]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
In some ways I think we( US MEDIA ) are too guarded with regards to footage of dead or woonded servicemen. I know its an effort of our government to keep images from us of the negative results of the wars but I kind of think if we saw more of the true results of this mess we would be more carefull about getting involved in places we should not be in ( IRAQ ) . Im not saying we should show the pics of binladen. But I think the media has been too guarded about showing the results of the conflics we are in. 31,000 wounded servicemen in Iraq and Nearly 5,000 dead . All for WMDs that we THOUGHT they had but didnt.


I disagree with you about the media. I think they put far to much info out there that we dont need to know. Plus, a lot of the info they put out there (regarding war) is helpful to our enemy.

As far as the WMDs, true we didnt find any. However, they had had them in the past. He used to kill his own people. He also knew we were coming. As for where they are now, my bet would be some of the neighboring countries helped him get rid of or hide them.




BEAST

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BEAST
I am just going off of what their historians said. They said the Admiral argued against Pearl Harbor in a major way. Almost to the point of getting himself in trouble with the Emperor. Because of all of that, the historians believe, in fact, that he did say something along the lines of that famous quote.




BEAST

by all accounts he did not..he even said in a protracted war he thought Japan could outlast the American forces..in fact he was the one who created the idea and plan to attack Pearl Harbor.

[BEAST]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
by all accounts he did not..he even said in a protracted war he thought Japan could outlast the American forces..in fact he was the one who created the idea and plan to attack Pearl Harbor.


Well, I suppose the historians were just lying then.




BEAST

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BEAST
Well, I suppose the historians were just lying then.




BEAST

no I think there were some in the Japan government that was worried that getting the US involved would create problems because Japan did not have the natural resources that the States did( that was the whole reason they started fighting China to get their resources). I just think the romantic idea that a Japan admiral after this big attack said something to the effect that the we messed up is to great to pass up...it is not like we started kicking their butt ASAP...it took a year to even get what would be called a draw agianst Japan in battle and a year and half to get the first win( midway).

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by TexMike
Let me get this straight...you think showing a photo of someone with a serious head wound will scare someone who is willing to fly a plane into a skyscraper or strap a bomb to himself and detonate it? ? ? ?

Agreed, supporters of Osama hate us and showing the picture will have little if any impact on their feelings towards us. That being said, I would show to all who want to see it and it may provide closure for some. The thing that angers me the most is giving that POS a ceremonial burial. Do we do that for all enemies. We should have thrown his carcass in with a pen of wild pigs and sent the video to Hamas, Hezbollah, Muslim Brotherhood, and any other likeminded groups.

[Black_Magic]

Oh that sound good:rolleyes: why not burn a koran while we are at it... I say just make the president release the Death certificate:p

[trojandad]

Originally posted by BEAST
Well, I suppose the historians were just lying then.




BEAST

here is what he said in a letter: "A military man can scarcely pride himself on having 'smitten a sleeping enemy'; it is more a matter of shame, simply, for the one smitten. I would rather you made your appraisal after seeing what the enemy does, since it is certain that, angered and outraged, he will soon launch a determined counterattack."

they shortened it for hollywood effect, so i hear you both are right, he didnt say those words exactly, but said an incredibly similar statement....

the end result is our impression on a foreign power that judged us by the respect THEY had for us matters, its just up to us to determine how they see us, not how WE see us....

[AP Panther Fan]

According to CNN Breaking News:

"Dozens of people in the Pakistani city of Abbottabad have been arrested because of their suspected connections to the compound where Osama bin Laden was shot and killed, a Pakistani intelligence official said Friday. "


Smoke and mirrors....

:rolleyes:

[trojandad]

Originally posted by AP Panther Fan
According to CNN Breaking News:

"Dozens of people in the Pakistani city of Abbottabad have been arrested because of their suspected connections to the compound where Osama bin Laden was shot and killed, a Pakistani intelligence official said Friday. "


Smoke and mirrors....

:rolleyes:

amen, sister.....:clap:

[Ernest T Bass]

I just want a copy of the picture to put on my wall, next to Pablo Escobar and Saddam Hussein.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Oh that sound good:rolleyes: why not burn a koran while we are at it... I say just make the president release the Death certificate:p

i have no more of a desire to burn a q'uran anymore than i choose to burn a bible or any other holy book, but should my neighbor happen to burn one or the other, the baptists or methodists wont come kill him.....somebody make a funny comic strip about a muslim cleric and they have to hide their whole life....

i, for one, am just sick of the society of the scared....am just an advocate of that old shakespeare line, "coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave die but once"....if they want to kill me for burning a book, i guess they better get busy, not that i want to burn it, or am gonna, but i'm sure not gonna avoid burning it because they might piss their pants.....its somebodys holy book, THATS why i wont burn the dang thing.....

[Cam]

When CNN came on that Obama was going on national TV on a Sunday night for an urgent announcement, my first thought was, "Damn, the aliens are finally here"......of course, my wife had it right that it was bin Laden........

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by trojandad
i have no more of a desire to burn a q'uran anymore than i choose to burn a bible or any other holy book, but should my neighbor happen to burn one or the other, the baptists or methodists wont come kill him.....somebody make a funny comic strip about a muslim cleric and they have to hide their whole life....

i, for one, am just sick of the society of the scared....am just an advocate of that old shakespeare line, "coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave die but once"....if they want to kill me for burning a book, i guess they better get busy, not that i want to burn it, or am gonna, but i'm sure not gonna avoid burning it because they might piss their pants.....its somebodys holy book, THATS why i wont burn the dang thing..... It makes no sense to burn a book period. I Kinda agree with the president on this one when he says " we dont need to spike the football on this one". No need to show off. Killing the guy is enough. to show off actualy shows weeknes IMO. We should have the attitude of NEXT...

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Oh that sound good:rolleyes: why not burn a koran while we are at it... I say just make the president release the Death certificate:p

I never implied or stated that the koran should be burned. Those who interpret it in ways that lead to radical/terrorist actions need to the way of Osama without the ceremonial burial that the buffoon in the White House chose to give that piece of garbage.

[trojandad]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
It makes no sense to burn a book period. I Kinda agree with the president on this one when he says " we dont need to spike the football on this one". No need to show off. Killing the guy is enough. to show off actualy shows weeknes IMO. We should have the attitude of NEXT...

its just amazing that we stress the differences on small items like "spiking the football or no" rather than spending the effort of all this talk on the differences between us and killers, because i assure anyone they dont waste time chattering on their small differences....

[sinton66]

I still say we missed a golden opportunity. Should have put his head on a stick and paraded it throughout the middle east. You don't deter enemies by being afraid of your "world image". You show them you're the baddest of the bad and do your level best to strike fear in their hearts. War is hell, it ain't supposed to be pretty. Are we at war with terrorism or aren't we?

[waterboy]

Originally posted by sinton66
I still say we missed a golden opportunity. Should have put his head on a stick and paraded it throughout the middle east. You don't deter enemies by being afraid of your "world image". You show them you're the baddest of the bad and do your level best to strike fear in their hearts. War is hell, it ain't supposed to be pretty. Are we at war with terrorism or aren't we?
Yes we are in a war with terrorism. There is no need for worrying about "world image", especially if that image is that we are weak and soft in the minds of the very people we are at war with. I believe parading around the Middle East with his head on a stick is probably the only thing those people would understand, too. It wouldn't "strike fear" with them, but it would definitely go a long way in showing them that we are serious about taking their sort out its misery. That would've been the way I would've preferred.:D

[sinton66]

The US has done extensive research into every type of war one can imagine. Physical, nuclear, psychological, chemical, you name it, they've done vast research in it. The powers that be are just scared to use any of it because of that "world image". They could still use the fear syndrome device you've never heard of to throw up a huge three dimensional image of his dead body if they wanted to.

[AP Panther Fan]

Originally posted by sinton66
They could still use the fear syndrome device you've never heard of to throw up a huge three dimensional image of his dead body if they wanted to.


Wow...that sounds pretty neat...it would strike fear in me if something like that were to show up in the night sky.

[trojandad]

i should have shutup and let sinton 66 and waterboy have at it, they said more in a few sentences then all my crap said in days....

[BEAST]

Originally posted by trojandad
i should have shutup and let sinton 66 and waterboy have at it, they said more in a few sentences then all my crap said in days....

No you shouldn't. I agree with you. I dont understand some of these folks mindset. When dealing with a bully, you dont try to play nice. You gotta go at em quick and get damn nasty. 99% of the time, the bully will tuck tail and go the other way.




BEAST

[MUSTANG69]

Originally posted by sinton66
I still say we missed a golden opportunity. Should have put his head on a stick and paraded it throughout the middle east. You don't deter enemies by being afraid of your "world image". You show them you're the baddest of the bad and do your level best to strike fear in their hearts. War is hell, it ain't supposed to be pretty. Are we at war with terrorism or aren't we?

+1

[sinton66]

Originally posted by AP Panther Fan
Wow...that sounds pretty neat...it would strike fear in me if something like that were to show up in the night sky.

It's actually real. It was invented back in early 1960 by a couple of shrinks from Houston and tested during the decade ending in 1970.