Redskins at Cowboys [Archive] - Texas DownLow Forum

coach

12-20-2010, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Last season this defense was #2 in the entire NFL in points allowed and yet you bitched every week because they didn't get turnovers!!! Now the defense is #31 in the NFL in points allowed and you give them PROPS for getting turnovers!!!

You don't always have to take the Barney Fife approach to football in order to keep it interesting...................But i'm glad you do! :D :D

This defense the last 5 years have been awful at making stops when needed. especially in last 5 minutes of the fourth quarter. i would like to see how many times they had lost the game in the fourth when having the lead.

also...they are beginning to get boring. Kitna has no vertical game and it hurts them especially on 3rd and longs. how many times yesterday did we come up short by 3 or 4 yarsds bc kitna threw it to witten 6 yards in front of the first down

Txbroadcaster

12-20-2010, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Last season this defense was #2 in the entire NFL in points allowed and yet you bitched every week because they didn't get turnovers!!! Now the defense is #31 in the NFL in points allowed and you give them PROPS for getting turnovers!!!

You don't always have to take the Barney Fife approach to football in order to keep it interesting...................But i'm glad you do! :D :D

uhh ok..I said the D had one saving grace..did not give them props for anything except that SINCE Phillips was fired the D has actually been getting turnovers

The offense has gotten about the same amount of yards before/after the whole coaching change..difference is the D getting turnovers has given Dallas the short field they were not getting at start of season( and last year) and that has helped the scoring out put.

The D overall is still terrible and cannot stop anyone..but I will tell you this..I will take a team that is middle of the road in how many points they give up but is more aggressive in creating turnovers over a D that does not create turnovers but is top 5 in points allowed.

Txbroadcaster

12-20-2010, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by coach
This defense the last 5 years have been awful at making stops when needed. especially in last 5 minutes of the fourth quarter. i would like to see how many times they had lost the game in the fourth when having the lead.

somewhere in FF and I battles I listed last year how of the 5 losses I think 4 of them Dallas had the lead or was tied in last 5 mins but the D gave up the win

coach

12-20-2010, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
somewhere in FF and I battles I listed last year how of the 5 losses I think 4 of them Dallas had the lead or was tied in last 5 mins but the D gave up the win

no no no in all 5 losses it was romo's fault and i all 11 wins it was the team saving romo on his bad play..Geez, where have you been

Bullaholic

12-20-2010, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
uhh ok..I said the D had one saving grace..did not give them props for anything except that SINCE Phillips was fired the D has actually been getting turnovers

The offense has gotten about the same amount of yards before/after the whole coaching change..difference is the D getting turnovers has given Dallas the short field they were not getting at start of season( and last year) and that has helped the scoring out put.

The D overall is still terrible and cannot stop anyone..but I will tell you this..I will take a team that is middle of the road in how many points they give up but is more aggressive in creating turnovers over a D that does not create turnovers but is top 5 in points allowed.

I will take a team who believes in themselves again over one that had given up. A 3-point win over a terrible Redskins team is yet another positive step in the right direction. The more wins--the more eveyone will be ready to say "The Cowboys are back"---even if it is kind of just a false bravado. I do agree that the "D" is going to take considerable work before the Cowboys can win consistently against the better teams. Let us begin, Mr, Jones....

BullsFan

12-20-2010, 03:15 PM

There's also the fact that the Dallas team from the first of the season wouldn't have won at all. Eking out a win against a bad Washington team is better than losing that same team. The difference between Wade's Cowboys and Garrett's is that Garrett's team finds ways to win the games that Wade's team found ways to lose.

Ranger Mom

12-20-2010, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by BullsFan
There's also the fact that the Dallas team from the first of the season wouldn't have won at all. Eking out a win against a bad Washington team is better than losing that same team. The difference between Wade's Cowboys and Garrett's is that Garrett's team finds ways to win the games that Wade's team found ways to lose.

I agree!! They may be done this year, but I will never give up on "da boys!!"...(No matter what FF says!!):taunt: :taunt:

Farmersfan

12-20-2010, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by coach
This defense the last 5 years have been awful at making stops when needed. especially in last 5 minutes of the fourth quarter. i would like to see how many times they had lost the game in the fourth when having the lead.

also...they are beginning to get boring. Kitna has no vertical game and it hurts them especially on 3rd and longs. how many times yesterday did we come up short by 3 or 4 yarsds bc kitna threw it to witten 6 yards in front of the first down

What a bunch of ridiculous nonsense!!!! If the defense allows the other team to score earlier in the game instead of late then the last drive doesn't even matter!!! The Cowboys aren't even in the game late without the defense making stops early!! They were #2 in points allowed! Just so you can understand that; #2 IN POINTS ALLOWED IN THE ENTIRE NFL!!!!! If the offense scores points they don't have to worry about the other team scoring late to win!

Jon Kitna is averaging 17 yards a game less than Romo did on 3 less passing attempts. He has a 7.6 YPC average compared to Romo's 7.5 YPC average. Kitna's long for the season is 71 yards and Romo's was 69 yards.
And your comments on Kitna throwing short to Witten is exactly what I have been screaming about for 4 seasons now with ROMO!!!

Txbroadcaster

12-20-2010, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
And your comments on Kitna throwing short to Witten is exactly what I have been screaming about for 4 seasons now with ROMO!!!

Really? I guess Witten's 96, 81, 94 receptions the last three years really show how Romo was not using Witten at all

And I honestly hope you dont believe your comment about when a team gives up points

If a team gives up points early it allows the offense a chance to answer..if the D is giving up points in the last two minutes of the game the chance your offense will even get a realistic chance to respond is about 10%.

Bullaholic

12-20-2010, 03:31 PM

Farmer... I can't wait to see Romo in the "WildBoy" formation next year---flanked out there ready to make a reception or take a pitchback. Are you ready for this? :D

Farmersfan

12-20-2010, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Really? I guess Witten's 96, 81, 94 receptions the last three years really show how Romo was not using Witten at all

And I honestly hope you dont believe your comment about when a team gives up points

If a team gives up points early it allows the offense a chance to answer..if the D is giving up points in the last two minutes of the game the chance your offense will even get a realistic chance to respond is about 10%.

I am 100% certain that you are lost TX!!! When did I say Romo didn't use Witten? I was responding to someone else who said Kitna throws 4 yards to Witten when they need 8 yards for a 1st! That has been the MO of this team for years.

And if the defense gives up points in the last 2 minutes of the game but not in the other 58 minutes then the offense STILL had the previous (insert total) possessions to score points but failed!!

coach

12-20-2010, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
What a bunch of ridiculous nonsense!!!! If the defense allows the other team to score earlier in the game instead of late then the last drive doesn't even matter!!! The Cowboys aren't even in the game late without the defense making stops early!! They were #2 in points allowed! Just so you can understand that; #2 IN POINTS ALLOWED IN THE ENTIRE NFL!!!!! If the offense scores points they don't have to worry about the other team scoring late to win!

Jon Kitna is averaging 17 yards a game less than Romo did on 3 less passing attempts. He has a 7.6 YPC average compared to Romo's 7.5 YPC average. Kitna's long for the season is 71 yards and Romo's was 69 yards.
And your comments on Kitna throwing short to Witten is exactly what I have been screaming about for 4 seasons now with ROMO!!!

no no you are wrong again. You are a bunch of ridiculous nonsense.. i cant believe you are trying to say kitna is better than romo. show me where romo has constantly thrown 4 yards short of the first down. you are so b lind its not even funny...you take kitna and ill take romo and we will see who has a better career...

coach

12-20-2010, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by coach
no no you are wrong again. You are a bunch of ridiculous nonsense.. i cant believe you are trying to say kitna is better than romo. show me where romo has constantly thrown 4 yards short of the first down. you are so b lind its not even funny...you take kitna and ill take romo and we will see who has a better career...

they guy had the greatest season statistically by a cowboy qb ever. EVER. last year. and comparing kitna to romo this year is apples to oranges bc of the team's mental aspect of the game after wade was gone. you take out a fumble by choice and a holding by baron and this season is a complete turnaround...yet you find a way to blame romo. i also remember when romo continually lead the cowboys back against baltimore and the NUMBER TWO DEFENSE NONSENSE you always say let the ravens run through them like a hot knife through butter. yet i remember you tried to blame it on romo.get over the fact that you are a moron and dont know what the hell you are talking about.

Farmersfan

12-20-2010, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by coach
no no you are wrong again. You are a bunch of ridiculous nonsense.. i cant believe you are trying to say kitna is better than romo. show me where romo has constantly thrown 4 yards short of the first down. you are so b lind its not even funny...you take kitna and ill take romo and we will see who has a better career...

1. Show me where Kitna has consistently thrown short of the 1st down as you claim???? I've already shown you where Kitna's stats equals Romos.

2. I never said Kitna was better than Romo! I said Kitna is turning in numbers this season that rivals Romo's. You can't argue that.

3. I would never take Kitna over Romo! but i would take back the 12 million dollars Romo is making if I can get the same production out of a 1 million dollar a year, 38 year old, has-been, backup!

4.. What was it?????????? Oh yea!

YOU ARE A BUNCH OF NONSENSE!!!! :D :D :D

coach

12-20-2010, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
1. Show me where Kitna has consistently thrown short of the 1st down as you claim???? I've already shown you where Kitna's stats equals Romos.

2. I never said Kitna was better than Romo! I said Kitna is turning in numbers this season that rivals Romo's. You can't argue that.

3. I would never take Kitna over Romo! but i would take back the 12 million dollars Romo is making if I can get the same production out of a 1 million dollar a year, 38 year old, has-been, backup!

4.. What was it?????????? Oh yea!

YOU ARE A BUNCH OF NONSENSE!!!! :D :D :D

did you not watch the game sunday? he did it 3 times.

Txbroadcaster

12-20-2010, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I am 100% certain that you are lost TX!!! When did I say Romo didn't use Witten? I was responding to someone else who said Kitna throws 4 yards to Witten when they need 8 yards for a 1st! That has been the MO of this team for years.

And if the defense gives up points in the last 2 minutes of the game but not in the other 58 minutes then the offense STILL had the previous (insert total) possessions to score points but failed!!

If I read the comment wrong my bad..I thought u were saying Romo should use Witten more

Now as far as the D..they werent shutting teams out till last 2 mins or u would have a valid point..the O WAS putting the team ahead last year( and this year to an extent) then the D would give up the back break drive

Again..I will take a D who creates more turnovers it gives the team a chance to win

Look at the games since Garrett became HC..they dont when those games without the D creating the chances with turnovers( even though the D overall sucks lol)

Farmersfan

12-20-2010, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by coach
they guy had the greatest season statistically by a cowboy qb ever. EVER. last year. and comparing kitna to romo this year is apples to oranges bc of the team's mental aspect of the game after wade was gone. you take out a fumble by choice and a holding by baron and this season is a complete turnaround...yet you find a way to blame romo. i also remember when romo continually lead the cowboys back against baltimore and the NUMBER TWO DEFENSE NONSENSE you always say let the ravens run through them like a hot knife through butter. yet i remember you tried to blame it on romo.get over the fact that you are a moron and dont know what the hell you are talking about.

Bucking for another Vacation Coach????

I think a review of the previous posts are in order for you Coach. Nobody has claimed the Dallas D is anything but terrible this season. The #2 ranking was LAST YEAR and Dallas didn't play Baltimore last year!!!!

coach

12-20-2010, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Bucking for another Vacation Coach????

I think a review of the previous posts are in order for you Coach. Nobody has claimed the Dallas D is anything but terrible this season. The #2 ranking was LAST YEAR and Dallas didn't play Baltimore last year!!!!

i did not say they played last year. it was 2 years ago when ray lewis and co turned the lights off in texas stadium.. i remember you blaming romo for that loss when it was the defesne who lost the game. and no my im back from vacation and plan to stay

Farmersfan

12-20-2010, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
If I read the comment wrong my bad..I thought u were saying Romo should use Witten more

Now as far as the D..they werent shutting teams out till last 2 mins or u would have a valid point..the O WAS putting the team ahead last year( and this year to an extent) then the D would give up the back break drive

Again..I will take a D who creates more turnovers it gives the team a chance to win

Look at the games since Garrett became HC..they dont when those games without the D creating the chances with turnovers( even though the D overall sucks lol)

******#2 in the NFL in points allowed.********

Not every team can be the 85' Bears on defense.

And your arguement is a mute point because the defense is giving up a ton of points. Of course without the turnovers they don't win!!!!!!!!!!!! Even with turnovers they can't normally overcome the points this defense is givng up this season. Last season the defense didn't give up the points! turnovers are great! but they are a bonus! EXTRA!

Txbroadcaster

12-20-2010, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
******#2 in the NFL in points allowed.********

Not every team can be the 85' Bears on defense.

And your arguement is a mute point because the defense is giving up a ton of points. Of course without the turnovers they don't win!!!!!!!!!!!! Even with turnovers they can't normally overcome the points this defense is givng up this season. Last season the defense didn't give up the points! turnovers are great! but they are a bonus! EXTRA!

and I disagree..I dont think turnovers are an extra I think a D HAS to create chaos and turnovers

Saints last year..not a great D, but made HUGE plays with turnovers and scoring off of them..

Pitt in 08 top 10 in turnovers as was Zona both the SB teams

The Bears in 06 LIVED off the turnovers

When a D is not getting turnovers unless they are getting 3 and out every time( which none do) it creates longer fields for the offense

So again I will take a D giving up 20 points a game if they are creating turnovers and sacks every time over a team giving up 15 a game but not able to creat turnovers

And Dallas is now 4-2 with the D creating turnovers(5-2 if u count Texans game)..so yes even a bad D can live off of creating turnovers

GrTigers6

12-20-2010, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
******#2 in the NFL in points allowed.********

Not every team can be the 85' Bears on defense.

And your arguement is a mute point because the defense is giving up a ton of points. Of course without the turnovers they don't win!!!!!!!!!!!! Even with turnovers they can't normally overcome the points this defense is givng up this season. Last season the defense didn't give up the points! turnovers are great! but they are a bonus! EXTRA! Ok so the defense doesnt get turnovers the first half of the season and the boys go 1-7. they start getting turn overs and they go 4-2.
In your opinion, what is a a good offensive average for scoring. Because no matter how many you score on offense, you still will not win if you dont keep the other team from scoring. Its that simple.
On the romo subject. You take out several stupid penalties, a team that didnt want to play and poor management overall and you could of had a 6-2 start from romo instead of 1-7.
I dont know how people can use win/loss records to judge a QB.
How many games did romo lose this year where we scored more than 20 points. Probably most. You have teams that score 30 points or more but cant win because the defense gives up 40. thats not on the QB.

Farmersfan

12-20-2010, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
and I disagree..I dont think turnovers are an extra I think a D HAS to create chaos and turnovers

Saints last year..not a great D, but made HUGE plays with turnovers and scoring off of them..

Pitt in 08 top 10 in turnovers as was Zona both the SB teams

The Bears in 06 LIVED off the turnovers

When a D is not getting turnovers unless they are getting 3 and out every time( which none do) it creates longer fields for the offense

So again I will take a D giving up 20 points a game if they are creating turnovers and sacks every time over a team giving up 15 a game but not able to creat turnovers

And Dallas is now 4-2 with the D creating turnovers(5-2 if u count Texans game)..so yes even a bad D can live off of creating turnovers

Only 4 teams in the top 20 in the NFL in turnovers finished ahead of the Cowboys last season!

Farmersfan

12-20-2010, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by GrTigers6

On the romo subject. You take out several stupid penalties, a team that didnt want to play and poor management overall and you could of had a 6-2 start from romo instead of 1-7.

And then he would have the same record that Kitna should have!!!!!! What's your point?

Txbroadcaster

12-20-2010, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Only 4 teams in the top 20 in the NFL in turnovers finished ahead of the Cowboys last season!

ur thinking of TO Margin..different stat.

Dallas was 28th last year in INTs and 26th in Fumble recoveries

GrTigers6

12-20-2010, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
And then he would have the same record that Kitna should have!!!!!! What's your point? That the defense sucks and if it wasnt for them the controversary with kitna/ romo wouldnt even be happening. because we would be 10-4 or better and hoping for romo to be healthy as soon as he can be to get back into a groove.

Yes Kitna is doing good but we still have a better chance of winning with Romo under center

Farmersfan

12-20-2010, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
and I disagree..I dont think turnovers are an extra I think a D HAS to create chaos and turnovers

Here is the reality in this discussion. Only 4 Superbowl winners in the past decade have even been in the top 10 in turnover ratio!

09 Saints
03 Pats
02 Bucs
00 Ravens

Txbroadcaster

12-20-2010, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Here is the reality in this discussion. Only 4 Superbowl winners in the past decade have even been in the top 10 in turnover ratio!

09 Saints
03 Pats
02 Bucs
00 Ravens

turnover ratio is not the same FF..a team could create 100 turnovers but if their offense gives up 101 turnover they are -1

Farmersfan

12-20-2010, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
ur thinking of TO Margin..different stat.

Dallas was 28th last year in INTs and 26th in Fumble recoveries

And they were #15 in turnover margin. Their +2 margin basically means that Dallas took the ball away from their opponents twice more than they gave it up!!!

Txbroadcaster

12-20-2010, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
And they were #15 in turnover margin. Their +2 margin basically means that Dallas took the ball away from their opponents twice more than they gave it up!!!

uhh yes because the offense was one of the lowest in giveways last year

The Dallas offense last year lost 10 fumbles( 9 lowest in league) and threw 9 ints (2nd in fewest in league)

and still only finished with a plus 2..meaning they got only 21 turnovers

Farmersfan

12-20-2010, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
turnover ratio is not the same FF..a team could create 100 turnovers but if their offense gives up 101 turnover they are -1

If turnovers are so important for our defense then aren't turnovers also important for our opponents???? Ratio is the ONLY turnover stat that really matters.
If you get 100 turnovers and give up 100 turnovers then it's a wash! Thanks for making my point!

Txbroadcaster

12-20-2010, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
If turnovers are so important for our defense then aren't turnovers also important for our opponents???? Ratio is the ONLY turnover stat that really matters.
If you get 100 turnovers and give up 100 turnovers then it's a wash! Thanks for making my point!

WOW..uhh ok..you and I just see it different..Ratio is NOT the only turnover stat that matters...if ur team is lowest in league in creating turnovers and has a plus ratio it just means your team did not turn it over alot...which is only a positive for the offense and still a glaring negative for the defense.

Farmersfan

12-20-2010, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
WOW..uhh ok..you and I just see it different..Ratio is NOT the only turnover stat that matters...if ur team is lowest in league in creating turnovers and has a plus ratio it just means your team did not turn it over alot...which is only a positive for the offense and still a glaring negative for the defense.

So what is it if your defense gets a lot of turnovers but the team still has a average margin? Isn't that a positive for the defense but a glaring negative for the offense?????? What the hell is the difference???? Of course you want a really high ratio but only about 4 teams a season ever do that and of those teams only a few of them have ever won it all!

Farmersfan

12-20-2010, 10:08 PM

On a brighter note: The Mavs just beat the Heat! Even with the refs once again giving Wade and James every single call going down the stretch! Great win by the Mavs..............

Txbroadcaster

12-20-2010, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
So what is it if your defense gets a lot of turnovers but the team still has a average margin? Isn't that a positive for the defense but a glaring negative for the offense?????? What the hell is the difference????

The difference is I have said the Dallas D has not created turnovers on a consistent basis for a long time..YOUR the one who is pulling the offense into it..

Whether the Dallas O has 5 turnovers a year or 95..the Dallas D has to be able to create more turnovers..they have done it in the past 6 games and lo and behold Dallas is 4-2

GrTigers6

12-21-2010, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
On a brighter note: The Mavs just beat the Heat! Even with the refs once again giving Wade and James every single call going down the stretch! Great win by the Mavs.............. Any win against the heat is a great win. :clap:

Farmersfan

12-21-2010, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
The difference is I have said the Dallas D has not created turnovers on a consistent basis for a long time..YOUR the one who is pulling the offense into it..

Whether the Dallas O has 5 turnovers a year or 95..the Dallas D has to be able to create more turnovers..they have done it in the past 6 games and lo and behold Dallas is 4-2

My last statement on this really, really stupid discussion:

Again, the turnovers are a extra bonus that we would all LOVE for the defense to get a ton of! The only validity to your statement in the overall success of a team would be IF the offense gave up the ball a ton or the defense gave up a lot of points that had to be overcome. Since the defense had a +2 ratio in this department then the offense and the defense basically played their opponents on a even and level field. (and kicked their arses!) Defense vs. Offense, Mono A Momo and vice versa. The team had a 11-5 record because of the defense holding their opponents to 15 points a game. END OF STORY! This season the defense has fallen apart and the team is 5-9! And your point about the turnovers THIS season is a mute point because the defense has SUCKED!!!! Of course it has to get turnovers to win! It is giving up 1000 points a game! It didn't suck last year!
And YOU are the one that keeps blaming the defense for the few loses last season! You find the only less than desirable stat from this defense last season and keep harping on it like it was even a factor! If last season's defense had gotten the turnovers that you apparently think they are REQUIRED to get they would have been one of the greatest defenses in the history of this game! Double the number of turnovers and the points allowed would have went down to single digits!!!!! Just like your assumptions about when a team scores it's FEW points during a game being important, this one is also flawed!
I understand what you are saying about the defense giving up points late in the game but I think you are assuming that IF they stop the other teams on the last possession then they are REDUCING the amount of points they allow! That is a different arguement and that is not the case. They gave up 15 points per game and those points INCLUDE the late TD's in some of the games. But if the defense only gives up 15 points in a game and the offense only manages 10 points then they still lose regardless of if the other team scores it's points in the first 2 minutes of the game or in the last 2 minutes!!! The offense gets the EXACT same number of possessions or chances to score! Nothing changes in the game except for what point in the game the points are scored! PERIOD! You will talk about momentum and aggressive play calling and all the other "Coach Speak" that takes place because of a team being ahead or behind but it is all a wash because what hurts TEAM A helps TEAM B! And Vice Versa!

coach

12-21-2010, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by GrTigers6
Any win against the heat is a great win. :clap:

thread hijacking is not cool

garciap77

12-21-2010, 08:52 AM

:eek::eek: :eek:

GrTigers6

12-21-2010, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by coach
thread hijacking is not cool I didnt steal farmersfan did. I just commented on it.:D

Farmersfan

12-21-2010, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by GrTigers6
I didnt steal farmersfan did. I just commented on it.:D

Thanks GrTigers6! (as I tumble under the wheels of the Bus)

Merry Christmas!

:D :D

Txbroadcaster

12-21-2010, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
My last statement on this really, really stupid discussion:

Again, the turnovers are a extra bonus that we would all LOVE for the defense to get a ton of! The only validity to your statement in the overall success of a team would be IF the offense gave up the ball a ton or the defense gave up a lot of points that had to be overcome. Since the defense had a +2 ratio in this department then the offense and the defense basically played their opponents on a even and level field. (and kicked their arses!) Defense vs. Offense, Mono A Momo and vice versa. The team had a 11-5 record because of the defense holding their opponents to 15 points a game. END OF STORY! This season the defense has fallen apart and the team is 5-9! And your point about the turnovers THIS season is a mute point because the defense has SUCKED!!!! Of course it has to get turnovers to win! It is giving up 1000 points a game! It didn't suck last year!
And YOU are the one that keeps blaming the defense for the few loses last season! You find the only less than desirable stat from this defense last season and keep harping on it like it was even a factor! If last season's defense had gotten the turnovers that you apparently think they are REQUIRED to get they would have been one of the greatest defenses in the history of this game! Double the number of turnovers and the points allowed would have went down to single digits!!!!! Just like your assumptions about when a team scores it's FEW points during a game being important, this one is also flawed!
I understand what you are saying about the defense giving up points late in the game but I think you are assuming that IF they stop the other teams on the last possession then they are REDUCING the amount of points they allow! That is a different arguement and that is not the case. They gave up 15 points per game and those points INCLUDE the late TD's in some of the games. But if the defense only gives up 15 points in a game and the offense only manages 10 points then they still lose regardless of if the other team scores it's points in the first 2 minutes of the game or in the last 2 minutes!!! The offense gets the EXACT same number of possessions or chances to score! Nothing changes in the game except for what point in the game the points are scored! PERIOD! You will talk about momentum and aggressive play calling and all the other "Coach Speak" that takes place because of a team being ahead or behind but it is all a wash because what hurts TEAM A helps TEAM B! And Vice Versa!

I can honestly say I dont even know which part to talk about..because your are the first person who KNOWS football that I have ever heard hey it is ok if our D does not get turnovers no big deal

You say the Dallas D has sucked this year and ur dead on. BUT

In the 1-7 start Dallas was -9( since you feel that is only important turnover stat)..since going 4-2..plus 9..and the Dallas O has basically the same turnover amount in the split...so what improved? The Dallas D getting turnovers.

Honestly I dont understand your hey last year Dallas had a plus 2 in TO margin so that means they won on a level playing field thing...again Dallas D needing to create turnovers has nothing to do with what the Dallas O did or did not do in regards to turnovers.

Farmersfan

12-21-2010, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I can honestly say I dont even know which part to talk about..because your are the first person who KNOWS football that I have ever heard hey it is ok if our D does not get turnovers no big deal

You say the Dallas D has sucked this year and ur dead on. BUT

In the 1-7 start Dallas was -9( since you feel that is only important turnover stat)..since going 4-2..plus 9..and the Dallas O has basically the same turnover amount in the split...so what improved? The Dallas D getting turnovers.

Honestly I dont understand your hey last year Dallas had a plus 2 in TO margin so that means they won on a level playing field thing...again Dallas D needing to create turnovers has nothing to do with what the Dallas O did or did not do in regards to turnovers.

How many games this season do the Cowboys win if the Defense holds every team to 15 points????? (regardless of if they do it with turnovers or with bend but don't break defense).

Answer: 12 so far!

Thanks for playing!!!

Farmersfan

12-21-2010, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I can honestly say I dont even know which part to talk about..because your are the first person who KNOWS football that I have ever heard hey it is ok if our D does not get turnovers no big deal

It is only "OK" if the defense can stop the other team from scoring even without the turnovers. (Like Dallas did last season). Why is that so hard to understand TX!

Txbroadcaster

12-21-2010, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
How many games this season do the Cowboys win if the Defense holds every team to 15 points????? (regardless of if they do it with turnovers or with bend but don't break defense).

Answer: 12 so far!

Thanks for playing!!!

again Farmer..THE D HAS SUCKED THIS YEAR..not sure why you keep acting like I said they have not sucked.

Farmersfan

12-21-2010, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
again Farmer..THE D HAS SUCKED THIS YEAR..not sure why you keep acting like I said they have not sucked.

Of course the D has sucked this season! That's why the team is 5-9 right now! All bets are out the window this season because this is not even close to the same defense! But you keep saying the defense was not that good LAST SEASON either!!! That is what we are debating right now! Even with the #2 defense in the entire NFL you seem to think the defense was a weakness for this team. It's ridiculous and complete & utter nonsense! Of course the defense could have been better! Every single team in the history of this game had some part of their team that could have been better! With the 09' Cowboys the defense was the LAST part of the team that should be put under scrutiny! That's all I've have ever said TX! Our offense was AVERAGE in scoring points and Our defense was THE BEST at stopping points and YOU find ways to still blame the defense for the teams failings last season. It's not a matter of if the team would have been better with a lot more turnovers! It's a matter of was that part of the team GOOD ENOUGH last season! I think I have proven that it certainly was good enough last season!

Farmersfan

12-21-2010, 10:44 AM

Sorry everyone! I said I was finished with this debate but then keep getting drawn back into it!!!!!

I am ashamed!!!!:( :(

Txbroadcaster

12-21-2010, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Of course the D has sucked this season! That's why the team is 5-9 right now! All bets are out the window this season because this is not even close to the same defense! But you keep saying the defense was not that good LAST SEASON either!!! That is what we are debating right now! Even with the #2 defense in the entire NFL you seem to think the defense was a weakness for this team. It's ridiculous and complete & utter nonsense! Of course the defense could have been better! Every single team in the history of this game had some part of their team that could have been better! With the 09' Cowboys the defense was the LAST part of the team that should be put under scrutiny! That's all I've have ever said TX! Our offense was AVERAGE in scoring points and Our defense was THE BEST at stopping points and YOU find ways to still blame the defense for the teams failings last season. It's not a matter of if the team would have been better with a lot more turnovers! It's a matter of was that part of the team GOOD ENOUGH last season! I think I have proven that it certainly was good enough last season!

I never said the D was not good last year..I said the D had two problems last year..not creating enough turnovers and they had a bad habit of not being able to make the game changing plays in the 4Q..but please show me one post where I said the D was bad last year

BullsFan

12-21-2010, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I agree!! They may be done this year, but I will never give up on "da boys!!"...(No matter what FF says!!):taunt: :taunt:

+1. Couldn't have said it better myself!!

Farmersfan

12-22-2010, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by BullsFan
+1. Couldn't have said it better myself!!

UNFAIR! FOUL! FALSE!

I am the one SUPPORTING our Cowboys in this thread B-fan! Txbroadcaster is criticizing the #2 defense in the NFL last season. I am defending them!!!! So the correct thing for you to agree with would be:

"I agree!! They may be done this year, but I will never give up on "da boys!!"...(No matter what TXBroadcaster says!!)

Oh, I am soooo misunderstood on this forum!!!!! Woe is me! :( :( :(

Merry Christmas!

Txbroadcaster

12-22-2010, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
UNFAIR! FOUL! FALSE!

I am the one SUPPORTING our Cowboys in this thread B-fan! Txbroadcaster is criticizing the #2 defense in the NFL last season. I am defending them!!!! So the correct thing for you to agree with would be:

"I agree!! They may be done this year, but I will never give up on "da boys!!"...(No matter what TXBroadcaster says!!)

Oh, I am soooo misunderstood on this forum!!!!! Woe is me! :( :( :(

Merry Christmas!

LOL..of course you fail to mention how much you trash Romo LOL

Farmersfan

12-22-2010, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
LOL..of course you fail to mention how much you trash Romo LOL

One mans TRASH is another man's treasure TX!

slpybear the bullfan

12-22-2010, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
One mans TRASH is another man's treasure TX!

At the risk of relighting the fire...

I was curious (not making a point) in how many points the D and ST has scored during the Wade vs. Garrett games.

My "feel" was the Boys are scoring more points but the D (terrible D by the way) and ST are actually contributing some of those via Pick 6's.

Anyone have that stat?

Txbroadcaster

12-22-2010, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by slpybear the bullfan
At the risk of relighting the fire...

I was curious (not making a point) in how many points the D and ST has scored during the Wade vs. Garrett games.

My "feel" was the Boys are scoring more points but the D (terrible D by the way) and ST are actually contributing some of those via Pick 6's.

Anyone have that stat?

Dallas has 3 Defensive TDs for the season..all three came after the firing

Also they are plus 9 in turnovers since the firing( -9 before with offensive splits being about the same)

also Field Position has been a HUGE factor and helped Dallas since the firing as well

Farmersfan

12-22-2010, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by slpybear the bullfan
At the risk of relighting the fire...

I was curious (not making a point) in how many points the D and ST has scored during the Wade vs. Garrett games.

My "feel" was the Boys are scoring more points but the D (terrible D by the way) and ST are actually contributing some of those via Pick 6's.

Anyone have that stat?

First 8 games before coaching change:
10 takeaways/19 giveaways= -9 ratio
1-7 record

Last 6 games since coaching change:
16 takeaways/7 giveaways= +9 ratio.
4-2 record

that is a 18 turnover improvement for the whole team.

Farmersfan

12-22-2010, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
offensive splits being about the same)

REALLY?

The offense has 12 fewer turnovers since the firing! That's a better improvement than the defensive takeaways!

Txbroadcaster

12-22-2010, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
REALLY?

The offense has 12 fewer turnovers since the firing! That's a better improvement than the defensive takeaways!

sorry I was not looking at the give up games of Jax and Green Bay

Txbroadcaster

12-22-2010, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
First 8 games before coaching change:
10 takeaways/19 giveaways= -9 ratio
1-7 record

Last 6 games since coaching change:
16 takeaways/7 giveaways= +9 ratio.
4-2 record

that is a 18 turnover improvement for the whole team.

of the 9 before the firing 8 came in two games

of the 16 since the firing every game they have created at least 2 turnovers in every game

Farmersfan

12-22-2010, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
of the 9 before the firing 8 came in two games

of the 16 since the firing every game they have created at least 2 turnovers in every game

:confused: :confused: :confused:

What? What? and What?

Farmersfan

12-22-2010, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
sorry I was not looking at the give up games of Jax and Green Bay

Yes you were because you quoted a -9 turnover ratio before the firing which INCLUDES those two games! You only discounted those two games when it served your purpose!

-12 turnovers by the offense
+6 turnovers by the defense

that's a great improvement for the team as a whole but the greatest improvement is by the offense.

Txbroadcaster

12-22-2010, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Yes you were because you quoted a -9 turnover ratio before the firing which INCLUDES those two games! You only discounted those two games when it served your purpose!

-12 turnovers by the offense
+6 turnovers by the defense

that's a great improvement for the team as a whole but the greatest improvement is by the offense.

the -9/ plus 9 stat I gave was stated as that when I read it..did not break it down by games or amount of turnovers.

Txbroadcaster

12-22-2010, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
:confused: :confused: :confused:

What? What? and What?

ok will try again

in the 8 games before the firing..the D created 9 turnovers..8 coming in two games

in the 6 games since the firing..the D has created 16 turnovers with at least two coming in every game

Farmersfan

12-22-2010, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
ok will try again

in the 8 games before the firing..the D created 9 turnovers..8 coming in two games

in the 6 games since the firing..the D has created 16 turnovers with at least two coming in every game

Oh I see how you think! Your entire thought process on this subject is evolved around trying to prove that the defensive takeaways are what is responsible for the "Improvement" of this team since the coaching change!

The offense has 22 fewer giveaways in the 5 wins vs the 9 loses while the defense only has 4 takeaways more in the 5 wins than in the 9 loses!

Offensive giveaways in wins= 2
Offensive giveaways in loses=24

Defensive takeaways in wins=15
Defensive takeaways in loses=11

Txbroadcaster

12-22-2010, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Oh I see how you think! Your entire thought process on this subject is evolved around trying to prove that the defensive takeaways are what is responsible for the "Improvement" of this team since the coaching change!

The offense has 22 fewer giveaways in the 5 wins vs the 9 loses while the defense only has 4 takeaways more in the 5 wins than in the 9 loses!

Offensive giveaways in wins= 2
Offensive giveaways in loses=24

Defensive takeaways in wins=15
Defensive takeaways in loses=11

No actually my point was..before the firing the Dallas D did not get turnovers consistently getting all but two in two games

After the firing the D has started doing a better job of getting turnovers every game

Again I am not sure why you keep pulling the offense into this discussion I am not talking about the offense..I am talking about how the defense has done a better job of getting turnovers and it is something that has helped( not the sole reason for the better record since the firing)

Turnover stats can be skewed easily( as can really any total stat if you dont look into the games that add them up)...one game can really bump up either sides total...ex..your defensive takeaways in losses...go game by game and realize of the 11 in losses 5 came in one game..so in the other 8 losses the team has only gotten 6 turnovers( in 4 of the 8 they got none)

In the 15 in wins they have They go like this
3, 3,2,4,3 ..so in all 5 wins they have gotten at least 2 turnovers

Farmersfan

12-22-2010, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
No actually my point was..before the firing the Dallas D did not get turnovers consistently getting all but two in two games

After the firing the D has started doing a better job of getting turnovers every game

Again I am not sure why you keep pulling the offense into this discussion I am not talking about the offense..I am talking about how the defense has done a better job of getting turnovers and it is something that has helped( not the sole reason for the better record since the firing)

Turnover stats can be skewed easily( as can really any total stat if you dont look into the games that add them up)...one game can really bump up either sides total...ex..your defensive takeaways in losses...go game by game and realize of the 11 in losses 5 came in one game..so in the other 8 losses the team has only gotten 6 turnovers( in 4 of the 8 they got none)

In the 15 in wins they have They go like this
3, 3,2,4,3 ..so in all 5 wins they have gotten at least 2 turnovers

OK! At this point I think I am arguing with you just because it's YOU!!!! We both agree that both the offense and defense has gotten better in the turnover category since the coaching change. Let's hope they keep the momentum going until next season.

I am gone in a hour or so for the next 6 days on some Holiday leave time so you and yours have a great Christmas! I have asked Santa to bring you some sports common sense but he said he only has one sleigh so that is out of the question. Talk to you after the Holidays! :D :D :D

Txbroadcaster

12-22-2010, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
OK! At this point I think I am arguing with you just because it's YOU!!!! We both agree that both the offense and defense has gotten better in the turnover category since the coaching change. Let's hope they keep the momentum going until next season.

I am gone in a hour or so for the next 6 days on some Holiday leave time so you and yours have a great Christmas! I have asked Santa to bring you some sports common sense but he said he only has one sleigh so that is out of the question. Talk to you after the Holidays! :D :D :D

I never understood wth you were arguing about in the first place lol

You have a happy Holidays as well

and I have never questioned your sports sense, always felt you bring alot to the table on the topics