Phillies sign Cliff Lee

[Yoe_09]

Well...the Rangers and Yankees both appear to lose out: Cliff Lee (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/agree-to-sign-cliff-lee.html)

[BaseballUmp]

One hit wonders?

[Saggy Aggie]

phillies rotation = :eek:


Lee, Oswalt, Halladay, Hamels??? Or is Halladay gone?

[Yoe_09]

Originally posted by Saggy Aggie
phillies rotation = :eek:


Lee, Oswalt, Halladay, Hamels??? Or is Halladay gone?

No he is still there....mercy that is an amazing rotation.

[DDBooger]

Phillies vs Giants will be a hell of a series.

[Yoe_09]

Originally posted by BaseballUmp
One hit wonders?

Things are looking better and better for Boston every day :D

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Yoe_09
Things are looking better and better for Boston every day :D barring injuries, sure is.

[orange machine]

Well that blows!

[BaseballUmp]

Originally posted by Yoe_09
Things are looking better and better for Boston every day :D

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b328/Jakes2DFun/kool-aid-man.jpg

vs.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/kathytine/savage_randy.jpg

[LoboesWT]

What has happened to the Yankees and the Evil empire that was able to sign the impossible FA and make everyone angry. I am quite displeased with the young Steinbreners. I miss George and his unapologetic approach to winning!

[Yoe_09]

Originally posted by LoboesWT
What has happened to the Yankees and the Evil empire that was able to sign the impossible FA and make everyone angry. I am quite displeased with the young Steinbreners. I miss George and his unapologetic approach to winning!

I agree. Reports indicate that the Yanks will try to shop for power arms for the bullpen but if I were them I would try to get Greinke at this point....but can he handle the NY media and fans?

[LoboesWT]

Originally posted by Yoe_09
I agree. Reports indicate that the Yanks will try to shop for power arms for the bullpen but if I were them I would try to get Greinke at this point.

They have to do something at this point. Not only do they need a pitcher, but they are a catcher that can throwout base stealers. They are just sitting back and letting it happen, instead of taking the bull by the horns. His children have much to learn to earn respect.

[turbostud]

Originally posted by Saggy Aggie
phillies rotation = :eek:


Lee, Oswalt, Halladay, Hamels??? Or is Halladay gone?

With that rotation, if they don't win the World Series, they are the Stooges of MLB.

[Maroon87]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Phillies vs Giants will be a hell of a series.

Not as good as Phillies vs. Chuck Norris.


Holy crap what a rotation...:eek:

[poisoned10]

Sucks Texas couldn't sign him but atleast he's not going to NY!

[RoyceTTU]

So can the Ranger realistically get Grenke and Mendoza(I think thats his name) both?

[jockcity33]

Rangers need to go after Matt Garza and then Grienke.

[Txbroadcaster]

IMO Garza would best of the two..I dont think TB will ask as much as the Royals and I still dont know if Grienke can be trusted in pressure situations

[RoyceTTU]

Originally posted by jockcity33
Rangers need to go after Matt Garza and then Grienke.

Garza, that's who I meant.

Is it realistic to get them both. If thats the case, its a win not to of got Lee.

[Macarthur]

Both teams are asking a lot for Garza and Grienke. I would not give up my top 2 or 3 prospects for either.

I think we should try to make a reasonable deal, but I also think there is something to be said about keeping our powder dry. Chances are another good deal will present itself at a latter date.

I bet they look real hard at moving feliz to the starting rotation and maybe sign sorriano to close.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Macarthur

I bet they look real hard at moving feliz to the starting rotation and maybe sign sorriano to close.


I REALLY hope they dont do this..IMO would be the worst thing Texas could fo..Feliz is a fastball only pitcher and putting him in rotation would force him to throw his slider and change a unch more and those pitchers are WAY below average

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I REALLY hope they dont do this..IMO would be the worst thing Texas could fo..Feliz is a fastball only pitcher and putting him in rotation would force him to throw his slider and change a unch more and those pitchers are WAY below average

They are now. He hasn't had to really develop any other pitches. The thing that makes me think he could be a great starter is how effortless his motion is....He's very smooth. That lends itself to a higher pitch count.

I understand he was very good in the closer role, but good closers are much easier to find that 20 game winners. I think he has that type of potential as a starter.

[Phil C]

Cuban would have paid what was needed to keep Lee.
I guess they didn't choose NY because of the way the fans there treated his wife but he must not be familiar with Philadelphia fans and this Philadelphia isn't the one that got commended by the Bible for brotherly love. Of course may be Lee and his wife are ok when it goes the other way.

[crzyjournalist03]

Now the Rangers are looking at Wang

http://twitter.com/jcrasnick/statuses/14720215996694528

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
Now the Rangers are looking at Wang
Man, I feel so childish, but that just reads funny.

Who was the Rangers #2 behind Lee?

[CenTexSports]

The kicker for Lee may be something else. I heard his son was in remission for a blood disorder and that the number1 pediatric hospital was in Philly. With that much money on any team, that might be the key deciding factor.

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Man, I feel so childish, but that just reads funny.

Who was the Rangers #2 behind Lee?

On the staff currently, C.J. Wilson becomes the ace. I think their backup plan was/is Zack Greinke, but the Rangers aren't willing to overpay out of desperation just yet. Remember that the Rangers had built a significant division lead without Lee last year, and they were actually below .500 in games he pitched, so I don't think they feel desperate, especially with young arms continuing to grow and improve.

The thing I'd like to see right now is trying to trade Chris Davis to TB for James Shields. Both guys are very down on their value right now, and both could use a change of scenery. Davis could give TB what they got from Carlos Pena even if his batting average doesn't rebound, and Shields has potential #1-#2 starter stuff if he could ever get himself worked out of the funk he got into last year.

[slpybear the bullfan]

Originally posted by Yoe_09
Things are looking better and better for Boston every day :D

They were certainly a winner out of this!

Gonzales, Crawford, and now don't have to worry about LEE.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
Now the Rangers are looking at Wang

http://twitter.com/jcrasnick/statuses/14720215996694528

http://www.catzeyes93.com/images/General/OhSnap.gif

[slpybear the bullfan]

Originally posted by Macarthur
They are now. He hasn't had to really develop any other pitches. The thing that makes me think he could be a great starter is how effortless his motion is....He's very smooth. That lends itself to a higher pitch count.

I understand he was very good in the closer role, but good closers are much easier to find that 20 game winners. I think he has that type of potential as a starter.

Didn't Feliz come up as a starter? I believe so.

I think it would take him a while to fully develop another pitch. And he cant live as a starter with just a great fastball that he can locate... YMMV.

[eagles_victory]

Something just seemed up when took him so long to sign. I had a feeling there might be something else like this happening. I feel a little shafted as a Rangers fan like I did in July as a Cavs fan it has a very similar feeling to it.

[slpybear the bullfan]

Originally posted by turbostud
With that rotation, if they don't win the World Series, they are the Stooges of MLB.

Maybe so, but their pitching will have to do without one big bat. And they needed better hitting to get over the Giants last year.

They lost Werth and now it looks like Ibanez is gone too, so you have to rely on a resurgence from Howard, Utley, and Rollins... who had down years.

Still though, that 1 - 4 rotation will be crazy!

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by slpybear the bullfan
Didn't Feliz come up as a starter? I believe so.

I think it would take him a while to fully develop another pitch. And he cant live as a starter with just a great fastball that he can locate... YMMV.

Feliz started his entire career until he reached the big leagues. While I can agree that he needs to work on his secondary pitches, I also feel like putting him in as a starter would give him the best opportunity to refine them. He may take some lumps at first, but just the sheer volume of opportunity in a starting role as opposed to relief would probably help him develop his secondary stuff quicker. If he's going to have to do it at some point, I'd rather him do it now.

I'd much rather have a potential ace in the rotation than an All-star closer in the bullpen. You can pick up closers any time; aces are very hard to find.

[peagle]

:eek: :o

[NateDawg39]

I will be honest, I was afraid the Rangers might get him for 7 years and then who knows, he may bust in 3. I love his pitching but he isn't a 24 year old anymore. Nolan and the Bergs will get the best they can though.

[BullsFan]

Originally posted by Phil C
Cuban would have paid what was needed to keep Lee.
I guess they didn't choose NY because of the way the fans there treated his wife but he must not be familiar with Philadelphia fans and this Philadelphia isn't the one that got commended by the Bible for brotherly love. Of course may be Lee and his wife are ok when it goes the other way.

Hard to say what Cuban would or wouldn't done, but personally I'm not sure breaking the bank to keep him would have been healthy for the team.

Lee was originally from Philly. He was disappointed to have been traded away from them, as he had apparently always expected to end his career with them. Now it looks like he will.

I also heard that his family and especially his wife likes the area. Frankly, I can find a lot to be pleased about in this deal. If he's not going to be a Ranger, then I'm super glad he's going to an NL team, and especially super glad he won't be in pinstripes. I'm glad that it was more than money that made the decision for him, and I'm glad that he cares so much about his wife and family.

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
Feliz started his entire career until he reached the big leagues. While I can agree that he needs to work on his secondary pitches, I also feel like putting him in as a starter would give him the best opportunity to refine them. He may take some lumps at first, but just the sheer volume of opportunity in a starting role as opposed to relief would probably help him develop his secondary stuff quicker. If he's going to have to do it at some point, I'd rather him do it now.

I'd much rather have a potential ace in the rotation than an All-star closer in the bullpen. You can pick up closers any time; aces are very hard to find.

This.

Feliz has the potential to be a legit ace. Those are much harder to find than a good closer. YOu have to give him a look and see if he can be a top of the rotation guy. You know he can close, so if he struggles initially, you can slow it down and put him back in the pen for a while.

[Yoe_09]

Sure you could try to put Feliz in the rotation. You would then possibly go out and sign a guy like Soriano to close.

[Txbroadcaster]

Again..I am just not as big on putting Feliz in rotation...

velocity will go down, 2nd pitches are not good at ALL

I would rather him develop into a Rivera type than become what Joba Chamberlin has become, a guy who had a blazing fastball but was ruined

[Yoe_09]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Again..I am just not as big on putting Feliz in rotation...

velocity will go down, 2nd pitches are not good at ALL

I would rather him develop into a Rivera type than become what Joba Chamberlin has become, a guy who had a blazing fastball but was ruined

And I agree. There are a lot of possibilities out there. Personally, I would go after a guy like Greinke or Garza depending on the asking price.

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Again..I am just not as big on putting Feliz in rotation...

velocity will go down, 2nd pitches are not good at ALL

I would rather him develop into a Rivera type than become what Joba Chamberlin has become, a guy who had a blazing fastball but was ruined

You do realize that Rivera is the best that has ever been. Thinking that if we just leave him where he's at and he'll be Rivera is a bit of wishful thinking.

I guess I don't understand why you would not even give it a shot, given his talent level.

Given that the going market for a great starting pitcher is +$20 million per year and a great closer is $10-12 million per year, I think you can see where the league places a premium.

You can teach curve balls, change ups, and such. You can't teach 99 MPH.

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Again..I am just not as big on putting Feliz in rotation...

velocity will go down, 2nd pitches are not good at ALL

I would rather him develop into a Rivera type than become what Joba Chamberlin has become, a guy who had a blazing fastball but was ruined

Actually, Feliz's velocity was higher in the minors when he was starting. With four days of rest before every start, he routinely hit 100 mph on his fastball. While he hit those numbers occasionally, his average velocity on his fastball was 96 this year. There was a bit of concern over his use in 2009 and early this season because his velocity was down.

He'd realistically probably lose a few MPH off of the fastball later in games at least early in his career, but there's nothing to suggest that his fastball would suffer if he moved to the rotation.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Macarthur
You do realize that Rivera is the best that has ever been. Thinking that if we just leave him where he's at and he'll be Rivera is a bit of wishful thinking.

I guess I don't understand why you would not even give it a shot, given his talent level.

Given that the going market for a great starting pitcher is +$20 million per year and a great closer is $10-12 million per year, I think you can see where the league places a premium.

You can teach curve balls, change ups, and such. You can't teach 99 MPH.

Just difference of opinion..I would prefer him being in the bullpen

And I dont think it is such wishful thinking to say Feliz has a chance to be a dominant closer for a long long time. I just dont see the need to weaken that position to give him a try.

You very well could weaken both positions instead of making one better

And I disagree..pitch talent is pitch talent, you can teach grip and mechanics but just like throwing that 99 MPH he has to have the natural talent to throw the slider/change over the plate and they become a weapon at the major league level

[waterboy]

True. Control in the strike zone is tantemount in the big leagues. It doesn't matter how fast you throw the ball in the big leagues, sooner or later the hitters will catch up to the pitch if you throw it down the middle at the same speed every time. That's why the development of a couple of off-speed pitches, and a good breaking pitch whether it be a curve or a splitter is crucial for continued success pitching at the big league level. Cliff Lee is well known for his ability to hit spots on either side of the strike zone consistently with all of his pitches. That's something that young pitchers can definitely learn from.

[Macarthur]

Stud starters are much more rare than stud closers. I think you do yourself a disservice if you don't even see if you've got a potential King Felix on your hands.

[TheDOCTORdre]

Phillies vs BoSox World Series

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Macarthur
Stud starters are much more rare than stud closers. I think you do yourself a disservice if you don't even see if you've got a potential King Felix on your hands.

I would agree if Feliz had that natural selection of pitches..that is why CJ made the move so easy, he already had 4 pitches in his arsenal..King Felix with his 99 MPH fastball also throws a curve, a slider a change and a two seam fastball that acts like a sinker.

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I would agree if Feliz had that natural selection of pitches..that is why CJ made the move so easy, he already had 4 pitches in his arsenal..King Felix with his 99 MPH fastball also throws a curve, a slider a change and a two seam fastball that acts like a sinker.
If he ever gets to where he can throw all of those pitches in the strike zone on a consistent basis, Katie bar the door, 'cause he will be a completely dominating pitcher. He's very good right now, but I would like to see more consistency with his other pitches.

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I would agree if Feliz had that natural selection of pitches..that is why CJ made the move so easy, he already had 4 pitches in his arsenal..King Felix with his 99 MPH fastball also throws a curve, a slider a change and a two seam fastball that acts like a sinker.

And by all accounts, we're about to find our if Feliz can develop more than 2 pitches.

[Tired ole Bobcat]

I think the Rangers saved a pot full of money. In two years we will say who is Cliff Lee? And Philly will still be footing his hefty salary. Big salarys equal failure, look to the Cowboys plus Lee does not have that many great years left to warrant 22mil + per year.

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by Tired ole Bobcat
I think the Rangers saved a pot full of money. In two years we will say who is Cliff Lee? And Philly will still be footing his hefty salary. Big salarys equal failure, look to the Cowboys plus Lee does not have that many great years left to warrant 22mil + per year.

While big money contracts are hit and miss at times, it is no coinscidence that big time QBs win SBs, Kobe and Duncan win NBA championships and pitchers as a group are the highest paid in baseball. You don't absolutely have to have superstars at important positions to win, but the list of teams that have done it without superstars is very short.