yoakum 27-edna14. lagrange 20-gonzales 19

[bd62]

-

[Pudlugger]

It was not as close as the score, the Zebras kept Gonzales in the game with a series of poor calls. They took 9 points off the board for LG: 6 for the only holding call in the game on a 50 yard Anderle TD run and 2 for a runback on a blocked conversion (the Apache TD came on a kickoff runback where our kicker got laid out on a flagrant clip preventing him from making the tackle-but nooooooooo call, then on the next play our guy blocks a guy downfield shoulder to shoulder and gets the flag when our safety ran the blocked kick all the way back for a safety!). The Zebras missed several facemasks but when we recovered a fumble on the kick-off all of a sudden they got facemasking religion and threw a flag for incidental facemasking nullifying the turnover. The only first half Apache score (held to 2 first downs) came on a 50 yard pass in the endzone where our defender went up. caught the ball only to have the Apache back wrestle it out on the ground after the play and they called it a Gonzales TD! I could go on and on because these refs were horrendous but I won't. Our guys stayed cool and scored in the 4th to get the lead then stopped the Apaches 3 and out and marched down to the 5 were they ran out the clock taking a knee.

At half-time with the game tied 7-7 the stats were so one sided with 11 first downs to 2 it was an embarassment to the refs who had called so many plays back to keep it close. The Ref situation in the UIL must be in critical condition to have such "not ready for prime time" refs officiating these games.

But none the less the Leps looked real sharp especially on defense when it counted. The Apache Qb 15 Gray at 6'5" with such a strong arm was under pressure all night. The potent Apache offense scored on 3 big plays but that was it. Their big 245 lb Hoss #30 was pretty much shut down by the LG swarming defense. I saw our 145 lb MLB Tanner Welch just cream him for a 1 yard loss! It defies the laws of physics, but he did it. Anyway, congrats to the Leps and now get ready to take it to Sealy!

<small>[ September 06, 2003, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: Pudlugger ]</small>

[lepfan]

I do think we got the "grunt refs". I never like to put blame on them, but they deserve it tonight!

[Pudlugger]

Congrats to the Bulldogs, continuing to show class. Good luck the rest of the way.

[bd62]

i sure hope they dont have that set of refs when we go to gonzales for first dist. game. tell coach v. to call crowe and give him the details on that bunch of refs.

[Old Green]

Congrats to the Bulldogs and Leopards on your win.
Pudlugger sounds like the refs were perfecting their flag throwing techniques.

[Pudlugger]

bd62:
i sure hope they dont have that set of refs when we go to gonzales for first dist. game. tell coach v. to call crowe and give him the details on that bunch of refs.I'm positive Coach V has a lot to say about this crew. He showed remarkable restraint in the face of one after another of questionable calls and missed calls. It was a really ugly win but a win nevertheless. Now we need to settle down and prepare for a tough Sealy team. Good luck against Gonzales. If your offense is clicking you will win as their defense is not strong and you guys are much more rounded as a team and better coached. wink

[lepfan]

Discipline -- if you practice what you preach it will show within your team. A lot of discipline was shown (I am not sure I could have :rolleyes: )Wait, I know I did not tonight!

[TXMike]

There was more than 1 holding call in the LG - G game. And they did not all go against LG. On the simultaneous possession pass, unless you were on the wrong side of the field (i.e. the G sideline) and standing at the fence in the EZ there is no way you had a better look than the official who was standing right there. If your team's filming camera was in the press box then Coach V might get a better look at it when he sees the film. Only 1 official had a good look at that play and he ruled simultaneous possession. As for all the "missed facemasks", tackling a player by putting his head in an armlock is NOT a fasemask foul. Nor is having your hands on the side, top, or rear of helmet. The supposed negating of a turnover by a facemask foul against LG also did not occur. The runner was ruled to have already had his forward progress stopped so LG was not going to get the ball anyway. And the flags were down before he got carried backwards and before he was ruled down so the refs would not have known he was going to subsequently "fumble" anyway.

[o'cowboy]

Two young teams that show some promise, Edna has 8 Srs and an O-Line that has no Sr.s on it. I think that Yoakum has 10 Sr.s.

[Pudlugger]

TXMike:
There was more than 1 holding call in the LG - G game. And they did not all go against LG. On the simultaneous possession pass, unless you were on the wrong side of the field (i.e. the G sideline) and standing at the fence in the EZ there is no way you had a better look than the official who was standing right there. If your team's filming camera was in the press box then Coach V might get a better look at it when he sees the film. Only 1 official had a good look at that play and he ruled simultaneous possession. As for all the "missed facemasks", tackling a player by putting his head in an armlock is NOT a fasemask foul. Nor is having your hands on the side, top, or rear of helmet. The supposed negating of a turnover by a facemask foul against LG also did not occur. The runner was ruled to have already had his forward progress stopped so LG was not going to get the ball anyway. And the flags were down before he got carried backwards and before he was ruled down so the refs would not have known he was going to subsequently "fumble" anyway.If there was another holding call I would like to know when it occurred as I didn't see but one. The player who caught the ball was clearly our guy when he was comming down from the jump. It was not deficult to see that. What happened on the ground I'll admit was more the Refs call as he was there, but if our guy had it in his hands when his feet touched down then no matter what it is a touchback not a TD for Gonzales. The fumble was recovered by LG and taken from the kid while the refs tried to uncover him from a pile of Apache players who piled on. The hands on the helmet slid all over Anderle's facemask several times and that is incidental facemasking---good refs don't tolerate head hunting tacklers who bring kids down by the helmet. You failed to comment on the blown clipping penalties TXMIKE. Maybe you agree with me here. I'll get more info latter today when I here from my son on the films. If I'm wrong I will apologize, but I don't think I will have to.

[TXMike]

If the defender alone had his hands on the ball and a "firm grasp and control" of the ball and part of his body touches ground in the EZ, it is an interception. If both players have a "firm grasp and control" of the ball and one comes to ground first, he is awarded the catch. If both have a "firm grasp and control" and come to earth at same time, it is a "simultaneous catch" and is awarded to the offense. I'd be interested in what the film shows.

A hand on the facemack is NOT an incidental facemask. The facemask has to be grasped in order for it to be a a foul at all. How do you think runners get away with stiff arming when their hand is on defender's facemask?

I did not see the block on your kicker nor did I see the block in the back (NOT "clipping" that was called on your team's return of blocked extra point. Therefore, I do not know if they were missed or not. They may have been, they may not have been. Film may tell.

If a fumble recovery was taken away from a kid in a pile all I can say is it was not the 1st time it has happened, nor will it be the last, and it happens in NFL games who, in your mind, probably have better refs than the "not ready for prime time" guys who worked this game. There was certainly NO lack of hussle by the refs who charged to the pile to try to get it sorted out quickly.

I don't know what you are used to but around here, tackling around the head IS permitted because the rules permit it. There is a HUGE difference between what is permitted against a ball carrier and what is permitted against non ball carriers. If the tackler grasps the facemask, or grasps the ear hole opening, or grasps the inside edges of a helmet, that should be flagged. But to have the runner in a "headlock" is not a foul.

All this being said...I trust your comments are that the officiating crew was incompetent and NOT that a deliberate effort was being made on the part of one team or the other.

[Chopblock]

I'm sure TxMike would gladly give you the meeting time and place if you would like to become an official since you seem to be able to call the game really well from the stands

[Old Cardinal]

To TXMike: I give you a hard time about your "permission to hold stance, in some circumstances"; however, I do agree and enjoy your sharing your knowledge of the game, you seem to be quite dedicated... I am actually shocked that La Grange ended up with a win over Gonzales, wonder what the score would be later in the year.

[Pudlugger]

Chopblock:
I'm sure TxMike would gladly give you the meeting time and place if you would like to become an official since you seem to be able to call the game really well from the standsI don't want to be an official. I just want to see the kids play football without so much official interference. The outcome of a game should not hinge on subjective calls like holding. Holding could be called almost every play. When it is called after a player breaks into the open I have to wonder. No I am not implying that the Refs were giving the game to Gonzales. I just think they blew a lot of calls, mostly going against LG (11 first downs to 2 at the half with score tied?). I thought I saw facemasking more than once but maybe I am wrong about that, the films will help sort it out but it makes no difference. The best team won last night and it is time to move on to prepare for Sealy.I appreciate the difficulty Refs face in officiating high school games, but when you have a game called like it was last night it is hard not to get upset. Anyway, enough said. Peace. :cool:

[Pudlugger]

Old Cardinal:
To TXMike: I give you a hard time about your "permission to hold stance, in some circumstances"; however, I do agree and enjoy your sharing your knowledge of the game, you seem to be quite dedicated... I am actually shocked that La Grange ended up with a win over Gonzales, wonder what the score would be later in the year.Old Cardinal, except for three long plays (50 yard jump ball catch, 55 yard run up the middle and a kick-off return) where Gonzales scored the Leps completely dominated Gonzales. Latter in the year I believe the Leps would only get better and would win by 3 or 4 TDs.

<small>[ September 06, 2003, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Pudlugger ]</small>

[TXMike]

The great majority of us are dedicated and spend a great deal of time studying, conferring with other officials, attending clinics, reviewing film, and trying to keep our old dilapidated bodies in reasonable enough shape to run up and down a field for 2 and half hours with kids who could be (for many of us) our grandkids. I will be the LAST to excuse a ref for a mental mistake, (there was one of those last night but I doubt anyone even noticed but us). Mental mistakes are things like penalizing a team 10 yards instead of 15 for a clip. But I will also give guys a lot of room for error with regard to what they see. As long as they are in the place they are supposed to be and they are looking at what they are supposed to be looking at, if they simply do not see something, that is life.

It is interesting to hear fans (and some coaches) gripe about not wanting the officials to "influence the outcome" because they may flag an infraction by their team but when a supposed infraction by the other team is overlooked we are slammed for being too permissive.

HOLDING: It is an old wives tale to say that holding could be called on nearly every play. If you know what a hold is and what it is not then you would know that a true hold is not that common. Furthermore, the better officials will unanimously tell you that if a hold is not at the point of attack, it should not be flagged. Furthermore, sometimes the hold is called a little late because the covering official may not be able to determine if the hold had an effect on the play for a few microseconds.

If memory serves...Gonzalez had a big play just before halftime which came back due to a holding call.

THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE FROM LAST NIGHT IS HOW IS THE LG PLAYER WHO APPEARED TO BE SUFFERING FROM SOME SORT OF HEAT INJURY? THEY HAD HIM DOWN ON THE SIDELINE TRYING TO COOL HIM OFF FOR QUITE AWHILE.

<small>[ September 06, 2003, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: TXMike ]</small>

[lepfan]

Chopblock, later in the season would have been worse. With the "brain dead" calls alone the score would have changed to 23 - 12 LG STILL on top. But, that is "what if", what has happened can not change no matter what we say. We are now focused on SEALY. :)

[lepfan]

Oops, a change in that "what if" score -- 23-6 LG STILL on top, because of that TD on the kickoff return where they had an illegal block in the back. It was seen by ALL on the LG side -- bleachers, fence line, etc....

[trojandad]

TxMike, I agree with you that holds away from the play should not generally be flagged. However, if you read the posts in our game (Coldspring) the HJ guys were using holds to antagonize and promote a reaction, even saying it aloud where the refs told them that they were gonna flag them for unsportsmanlike but never did.

To me, a fan of football, not a paid ref or someone wanting to defend a point, it's just another example of when a distinct rule (don't hold) is changed or curbed in order to make the game pass quicker or some other reason, it always comes back to bite the game. If it's wrong to do, it should be wrong to EVER do, lest eventually a hold has to be called an unsportsmanlike, which was never the rules makers intent in my mind. I don't see refs not calling offsides penalties just because the intruder was on the opposite side of the field from the play, they call it each time. In my mind, if it's wrong, it's always wrong.

Thank you and goodnight. LOL

[Pudlugger]

TxMike, Number 2 Bryan Menzenmeyer was taken to the hospital by EMS for dehydration and heat exhaustion. Last I heard he was doing alright. Thanks for asking.

[Pudlugger]

TXMike. I have a report on the films: the TD was an interception NOT a completion by Gonzales so take 7 points off the Gonzales scoreboard; the holding call on the TD run by Anderle was legit I apologize for my earlier remarks regarding that; the refs missed some offsides with the Apache D lining up in the neutral zone repeatedly; there was a facemask infraction so again I apologize for that as well; the clipping penalty was a bad call no clipping on the films for the blocked kick run back, howevewr, our kicker got clipped and there was no flag on the kickoff runback leading to this TD and extra point attempt, so take 6 more off Gonzales (LG would not have had the blocked extra point if no TD so no points for LG here). So that makes us both right I guess. Hypothetical final score without these calls: LG 20 Gonzales 6. On to Sealy.

[TXMike]

I don't see how I can intelligently discuss what the film did or did not show since I have not seen it but I will just say:
1 - There was no CLIPPING call on the returned blocked extra point. There was a block in the back call and the way it was explained to me ( I did not see the action), it was so far behind the play it might not even show up on film (i.e. out of the viewfinder).

2 - Even if the "foul" against your kicker had been seen and flagged, how do you know G would not have "gotten lucky" and scored on the ensuing drive? wink

[Gobbla2001]

I was really amazed with the clips etc... that were not called last night... Rice incercepted a ball and was running up the sideline, two of our guys were going after him and a Rice player came from behing and took a dive at the back of both of their knees which knocked 'em to the ground... Both of our players felt that one and it took 'em a few seconds to get up...

But I always give the refs the benefit of the doubt and try and tell myself they didn't see it... That had to be the only reason that wasn't called... There were a couple of roughing the passers that weren't called etc...

As Cuero will get better during the season, I'm sure the reffing will... The teams aren't the only ones who need to get a little practice...

[Gobbla2001]

the biggest problem I have with illegal blocks etc... not being called against a team (whether the illegal block is a factor or not etc...) is that the team gets away with it and will KEEP doing it until a flag is called... The players might not even know that the block is illegal, they're just trying to do their job... but until it is pointed out to those players (a flag is thrown) they'll keep doing it...

But like I said, as the season goes on the reffing will get better, they're tuning up themselves...

[trojandad]

Good point about "getting lucky", Mike. Problem is, the same answer argues the question "How do you know a hold away from the ball won't keep a defender from tackling a cut back or reverse runner?" Sounds like fouls just need to be called in order to answer both.

[TXMike]

Your point is taken and in fact many officials say the same thing. I am just telling you they way we have generally agreed to handle holding is that if it is not at the point of attack it is not called. I have seen times when a hold was not called at first but a guy tucked it away in his mental instant replay booth and if the play turned out to go that way and the held guy was unable to react appropriately, a flag was thrown then. If you want all holds called, then make sure you get less experienced officials because they do tend to throw flags more easily. I venture to say that your opinion is NOT shared by the majority of HS coaches.

[Gobbla2001]

I can understand that I guess...

[Lombardi]

I have seen the apaches play both games this year and there were more questionable calls by the officials in game one than there were last night.In the 1st game, the officials through several flags near the end of the game that were very questionable.We definitely got the better end of the deal in game 1 but last night I thought the breaks from the calls were even. Just an opinion.Congrats on the win and good luck vs. Sealy.

[Pudlugger]

Lombardi:
I have seen the apaches play both games this year and there were more questionable calls by the officials in game one than there were last night.In the 1st game, the officials through several flags near the end of the game that were very questionable.We definitely got the better end of the deal in game 1 but last night I thought the breaks from the calls were even. Just an opinion.Congrats on the win and good luck vs. Sealy.Thanks. Yall from Elgin or just scouting?

[TXMike]

If anyone is scouting LaGrange they need to pay particular attention to the LaGrange ballgirl. Take some of her methods back to your own ball folks. That kiddo has got to be one of the best, if not THE best, at her job of any I have seen from 5A and below. She does a fantastic job of staying in tune with the game and knowing when balls need to be swapped out and when they don't. She tests the turf as the game goes on so she can get a sense for how wet the ball is getting. The game was NEVER slowed down once because of any delay with her getting a ball in. Even when the refs forgot to go to her for a new ball, i.e. on kickoffs, she was right there to remind.

And to top it off...she does it ALL by herself while others are using 2 or 3 and still can't do the job she did.

[Pudlugger]

TXMike:
If anyone is scouting LaGrange they need to pay particular attention to the LaGrange ballgirl. Take some of her methods back to your own ball folks. That kiddo has got to be one of the best, if not THE best, at her job of any I have seen from 5A and below. She does a fantastic job of staying in tune with the game and knowing when balls need to be swapped out and when they don't. She tests the turf as the game goes on so she can get a sense for how wet the ball is getting. The game was NEVER slowed down once because of any delay with her getting a ball in. Even when the refs forgot to go to her for a new ball, i.e. on kickoffs, she was right there to remind.

And to top it off...she does it ALL by herself while others are using 2 or 3 and still can't do the job she did.That's Coach V's daughter!