This is how bad officals are

[coach]

Here is the situation. We have the ball 4th and goal ball on the 9 yard line. We call a slant and hit hit the receiver in the chest and ofcoarse he drops hit. He then is speared in the head late. A flag is thrown. Personal Foul is called. Good call by the officals right? NOOOOT SO FAST. He then calls a dead ball foul and therefore we have already turned the ball over so we can't get an automatic first down so the defense gets the ball and the ball is moved back half the distance to the goal First Down for the opposing team.

That same drive they drive the ball down the field and we hold then on a 4th and 4 play but we hit theam really really late out of bounds. Again dead ball Personal Foul automatic first down right? Wrong lol we did what good coaches do and yelled that it was after the play so we got the ball and lost 15 yards......

hey atleast they are consistent

[TexMike]

Not only are they consistent but they are right. That is EXACTLY how late hits are penalized on 4th down. I suspect even UIL "certified" officials would call it that way

[GrTigers6]

Several years ago I was watching a 1A game, dont remember who, but the defense grabbed the facemask and pulled the runner to the ground causing a fumble. they threw the flag and gave the turnover to the defense and marched them back 15 yards. Until the coach started yelling hey everyone grab their facemasks until they fumble so we can get it back. Then the officials huddled and made the right decision. LOL it was a brainfart to say the least.

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by coach
Here is the situation. We have the ball 4th and goal ball on the 9 yard line. We call a slant and hit hit the receiver in the chest and ofcoarse he drops hit. He then is speared in the head late. A flag is thrown. Personal Foul is called. Good call by the officals right? NOOOOT SO FAST. He then calls a dead ball foul and therefore we have already turned the ball over so we can't get an automatic first down so the defense gets the ball and the ball is moved back half the distance to the goal First Down for the opposing team.

That same drive they drive the ball down the field and we hold then on a 4th and 4 play but we hit theam really really late out of bounds. Again dead ball Personal Foul automatic first down right? Wrong lol we did what good coaches do and yelled that it was after the play so we got the ball and lost 15 yards......

hey atleast they are consistent

Yup, the officials enforced these fouls right and according to the rules on 4th down plays. Ya'll write these rules too coach. Read the rulebook:)

Might wanna change the heading to this topic now.

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by GrTigers6
Several years ago I was watching a 1A game, dont remember who, but the defense grabbed the facemask and pulled the runner to the ground causing a fumble. they threw the flag and gave the turnover to the defense and marched them back 15 yards. Until the coach started yelling hey everyone grab their facemasks until they fumble so we can get it back. Then the officials huddled and made the right decision. LOL it was a brainfart to say the least.

Yup, we have those (brainfarts) from time to time for sure. That's why we huddle sometimes. We say, get it right regardless how long it takes. Enforcement procedures should never be wrong, now calling the foul, might be.

[GrTigers6]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
Yup, we have those (brainfarts) from time to time for sure. That's why we huddle sometimes. We say, get it right regardless how long it takes. Enforcement procedures should never be wrong, now calling the foul, might be. Getting it right is all that counts.

[Snotbubbles]

LOL, opppps, coach got busted. There isn't a delete button here coach. Trust me, your not the first coach (if you are a real coach) to not know the rules, even though ya'll write them.

Hang in there coach.;)

[3afan]

ouch

[TexMike]

As the Bulldog pointed out, we do "see" things incorrectly at times on the field. Many reasons for that, i.e. wrong place, wrong time; visual acuity, reaction time, etc. Some of that can be fixed but not all. But once we "see" something, the enforcement after that should be correct. Just like my HS coach used to tell us, physical limitations are excusable, but not mental errors.

Even though football rules are perhaps the most complicated of any sport, refs (yes, even HS ones) have an incredible record of proper enforcements. I watch tons and tons of video and while it is all too easy to find fouls that were called that should not have been or not called when they should have, it is VERY hard to find where an enforcement is done wrong.

[lostaussie]

i would like to give kudos to all officials:clap::clap: Except that SOB who threw the interference call on us in 2006 against LE:D. I can't believe I didn't fire his arse the next day:D Still works for me:doh:

[YTBulldogs]

To take the heat off coach here for moment for his brainfart, here's kinda a classic from back in the day.

Had a game on the coast about 15 years ago, and we had a call that the home team coach didn't agree with. During a verbal exchange with my referee (white hat) and the head coach, the band started to play "3 blind mice".

[Matthew328]

Originally posted by coach
Here is the situation. We have the ball 4th and goal ball on the 9 yard line. We call a slant and hit hit the receiver in the chest and ofcoarse he drops hit. He then is speared in the head late. A flag is thrown. Personal Foul is called. Good call by the officals right? NOOOOT SO FAST. He then calls a dead ball foul and therefore we have already turned the ball over so we can't get an automatic first down so the defense gets the ball and the ball is moved back half the distance to the goal First Down for the opposing team.

That same drive they drive the ball down the field and we hold then on a 4th and 4 play but we hit theam really really late out of bounds. Again dead ball Personal Foul automatic first down right? Wrong lol we did what good coaches do and yelled that it was after the play so we got the ball and lost 15 yards......

hey atleast they are consistent

whoops

[GATAPride77]

Looks like a coach need to dust off the ole rulebook. Wow that one is easy.

[Eagle 1]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
Yup, we have those (brainfarts) from time to time for sure. That's why we huddle sometimes. We say, get it right regardless how long it takes. Enforcement procedures should never be wrong, now calling the foul, might be.

Even when they huddle up, they don't always get it right.
Here's an example with a picture to prove it.

A few years ago we were in the final minutes of a tied playoff game.
Our receiver breaks open and the ball is thrown perfect, but the defender reaches out a grabs the receivers arm preventing him from catching the ball. A clear case of pass interference, so the official in the background of the picture throws a flag. The opposing team's coach runs out on the field yelling at the head official that it was "face gaurding" and that it is legal in high school football to "face gaurd".
The official's huddle up and decide it was face gaurding and pick up the flag. That changed the whole momentum of the game and we end up losing by 3 points.
IMO, if your an official and you have the balls to throw a flag, then have the balls to stand behind your call. Don't let the coach or the other officials talk you out of what you called.
Here is the picture, as you can see the defender had hold of the reciever.
Even though the ball is not in the picture, it was completely a catchable pass. After waiving off the flag, the official told our coach that "he thought he seen pass interference but couldn't be sure", even though he had thrown the flag. :rolleyes:

Incidently, #20 on our team had already scored one TD on a similiar pass play.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2lieez7.jpg

[poisoned10]

Originally posted by coach
Here is the situation. We have the ball 4th and goal ball on the 9 yard line. We call a slant and hit hit the receiver in the chest and ofcoarse he drops hit. He then is speared in the head late. A flag is thrown. Personal Foul is called. Good call by the officals right? NOOOOT SO FAST. He then calls a dead ball foul and therefore we have already turned the ball over so we can't get an automatic first down so the defense gets the ball and the ball is moved back half the distance to the goal First Down for the opposing team.

That same drive they drive the ball down the field and we hold then on a 4th and 4 play but we hit theam really really late out of bounds. Again dead ball Personal Foul automatic first down right? Wrong lol we did what good coaches do and yelled that it was after the play so we got the ball and lost 15 yards......

hey atleast they are consistent


FAIL

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by Eagle 1
Even when they huddle up, they don't always get it right.
Here's an example with a picture to prove it.

A few years ago we were in the final minutes of a tied playoff game.
Our receiver breaks open and the ball is thrown perfect, but the defender reaches out a grabs the receivers arm preventing him from catching the ball. A clear case of pass interference, so the official in the background of the picture throws a flag. The opposing team's coach runs out on the field yelling at the head official that it was "face gaurding" and that it is legal in high school football to "face gaurd".
The official's huddle up and decide it was face gaurding and pick up the flag. That changed the whole momentum of the game and we end up losing by 3 points.
IMO, if your an official and you have the balls to throw a flag, then have the balls to stand behind your call. Don't let the coach or the other officials talk you out of what you called.
Here is the picture, as you can see the defender had hold of the reciever.
Even though the ball is not in the picture, it was completely a catchable pass. After waiving off the flag, the official told our coach that "he thought he seen pass interference but couldn't be sure", even though he had thrown the flag. :rolleyes:

Incidently, #20 on our team had already scored one TD on a similiar pass play.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2lieez7.jpg

Maybe they offset it for your players hand in the face of the defender:)

[Eagle 1]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
Maybe they offset it for your players hand in the face of the defender:)

Nope, not at all.
Our reciever was reaching up to catch the ball just as the defender comes in grabs him. That's why his arms are up there.
Besides, why else would the ref tell our coach "he thought he seen pass interference, but couldn't be sure"?

He seen the pass interference and let the head official talk him out of it.

[YTBulldogs]

Only real safety foul I see here is the "O" guys hand in the face of the "D" face.

Can't see the ball to rule on a DPI or not. Could have holding if not catchable though. For sure I see offsetting fouls here.

[Ranger Mom]

I can't tell you what "coach" does for a living, because I don't know.

What I DO know is that his username has been "coach' ever since he was in high school.....so, I don't think his username is indicative of his occupation, or it wasn't when he first joined anyway.

[Eagle 1]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
Only real safety foul I see here is the "O" guys hand in the face of the "D" face.

Can't see the ball to rule on a DPI or not. Could have holding if not catchable though. For sure I see offsetting fouls here.

Are you blind? :nerd:
You don't see the defender mugging our receiver?

[TexMike]

Originally posted by Eagle 1
Even when they huddle up, they don't always get it right.
Here's an example with a picture to prove it.

A few years ago we were in the final minutes of a tied playoff game.
Our receiver breaks open and the ball is thrown perfect, but the defender reaches out a grabs the receivers arm preventing him from catching the ball. A clear case of pass interference, so the official in the background of the picture throws a flag. The opposing team's coach runs out on the field yelling at the head official that it was "face gaurding" and that it is legal in high school football to "face gaurd".
The official's huddle up and decide it was face gaurding and pick up the flag. That changed the whole momentum of the game and we end up losing by 3 points.
IMO, if your an official and you have the balls to throw a flag, then have the balls to stand behind your call. Don't let the coach or the other officials talk you out of what you called.
Here is the picture, as you can see the defender had hold of the reciever.
Even though the ball is not in the picture, it was completely a catchable pass. After waiving off the flag, the official told our coach that "he thought he seen pass interference but couldn't be sure", even though he had thrown the flag. :rolleyes:

Incidently, #20 on our team had already scored one TD on a similiar pass play.



What they appeared to have was defensive AND offensive pass interference. They could have flagged both and played the whole thing over. However, most expereinced refs will tell you in a case like that they throw no flags if the pass is incomplete.

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I can't tell you what "coach" does for a living, because I don't know.

What I DO know is that his username has been "coach' ever since he was in high school.....so, I don't think his username is indicative of his occupation, or it wasn't when he first joined anyway.

Im sure he isn't a HS school coach. Maybe Pop Warner?

[Eagle 1]

Originally posted by TexMike
What they appeared to have was defensive AND offensive pass interference. They could have flagged both and played the whole thing over. However, most most expereinced refs will tell you in a case like that they throw no flags if the pass is incomplete.

The reciever was looking back to catch the ball and had his arms up in the air.............he was wide open until the defender came running in.
It was pass interference ALL THE WAY.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
Im sure he isn't a HS school coach. Maybe Pop Warner?

As I said, I don't believe he is a "coach" at all. That was just what he chose as his username way back when.

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
As I said, I don't believe he is a "coach" at all. That was just what he chose as his username way back when.

That's why he don't know the rules then. Thanks for clearing this up.

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by Eagle 1
The reciever was looking back to catch the ball and had his arms up in the air.............he was wide open until the defender came running in.
It was pass interference ALL THE WAY.

You were there, I wasn't. I just can't rule DPI based on this image cause the ball isn't shown. I can rule on your players foul though from this image.

Now, "if" pass is uncatchable, I do see a def hold, which is 10 yards, automatic first down. catchable, DPI for sure. But, I'd hope he seen ya'll foul too, then they offset, replay the prior down. I'm sure the official in this photo didn't see ya'll foul.

[TexMike]

Originally posted by Eagle 1
The reciever was looking back to catch the ball and had his arms up in the air.............he was wide open until the defender came running in.
It was pass interference ALL THE WAY.

Yep and the offensive player had his hands on the defender so it was also offensive pass interference. Like I said, offset and replay but philosophically most guys are going to go with a wash and no flag.

[Eagle 1]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
You were there, I wasn't. I just can't rule DPI based on this image cause the ball isn't shown. I can rule on your players foul though from this image.

Now, "if" pass is uncatchable, I do see a def hold, which is 10 yards, automatic first down. But, I'd hope he seen ya'll foul too, then they offset, reply the prior down.

Our guy is reaching up to catch the ball the defender is running into him, how is that a foul against our reciever?


Probably you in the back ground.....:rolleyes:

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by Eagle 1
Our guy is reaching up to catch the ball the defender is running into him, how is that a foul against our reciever?


Probably you in the back ground.....:rolleyes:

OMG, look where your receiver's (#20) hand is. In the guys grill under the facemask.

[pancho villa]

TexMike I have one for you. Last night in the Freshman game, the other team throws a TD pass. A lineman is down field. The side judge on our side said "I saw it but it is not my call" So we ask the head Ref. He points to side judge judge and says"It is his call"
Who makes this call? Anyone, side judge, or just only the back judge?

[Eagle 1]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
OMG, look where your receiver's (#20) hand is. In the guys grill under the facemask.

No, it may appear that way but it's not. Look closer, his hand up on the other side of the defenders face mask, more of the shoulder area.

Ok, let me explain this a little better. The ball was thrown a little short, so the reciever had actually slowed up on his route with his arms up in the air waiting on the pass to get there, which is why I said he was wide open. The defender then came running in and grabs the reciever just as the ball is getting there.

[Ranger Mom]

Okay....this is from an inexperienced unbiased eye.....but when I saw the pic, the FIRST thing I noticed was the hand up in the helmet and immediately thought....that's a flag.

It wasn't until I read more that it was the other guys play that was being questioned.

I have to agree with whoever said it should be offsetting penalties or no flag at all....but what do I know...I'm just a girl!!:)

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by Eagle 1
No, it may appear that way but it's not. Look closer, his hand up on the other side of the defenders face mask, more of the shoulder area.

Ok, let me explain this a little better. The ball was thrown a little short, so the reciever had actually slowed up on his route with his arms up in the air waiting on the pass to get there, which is why I said he was wide open. The defender then came running in and grabs the reciever just as the ball is getting there.

Well dang it.....I made my uneducated educated post and then you go and change the whole scenario on me!!!

:tongue: :tongue:

[pancho villa]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Okay....this is from an inexperienced unbiased eye.....but when I saw the pic, the FIRST thing I noticed was the hand up in the helmet and immediately thought....that's a flag.

It wasn't until I read more that it was the other guys play that was being questioned.

I have to agree with whoever said it should be offsetting penalties or no flag at all....but what do I know...I'm just a girl!!:)

Yep

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by pancho villa
Yep

You better be nice!!

[Eagle 1]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Okay....this is from an inexperienced unbiased eye.....but when I saw the pic, the FIRST thing I noticed was the hand up in the helmet and immediately thought....that's a flag.

It wasn't until I read more that it was the other guys play that was being questioned.

I have to agree with whoever said it should be offsetting penalties or no flag at all....but what do I know...I'm just a girl!!:)

I guess it's one of them plays you had to be there to see what actually happened.
If I ever get film footage of it I'll post it.
Like I said, our guy is wide open, waiting for the ball to get there with his hands in the air, and the defender ran into him and grabs him.
Like I said from the beginning, you don't throw a flag and then waive it off for something like this. I don't care who you are.

[LE Dad]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
OMG, look where your receiver's (#20) hand is. In the guys grill under the facemask. It is a pic and it is hard to tell, but
what I am seeing is the offensive players arm being pulled in by the defender grabbing his bicep. Now this could be to maintain his balance because the offensive player is pushing off... I am not able to tell. I would not think hands to the face would not be approiate as the offensive players palm is facing away from the defender and he looks to be attempting a catch rather than pushing against his face.
If the ball were catchable, I could see offensive or defensive pass interference or offsetting fouls.

No dog in fight... just my .02:cool:

[LE Dad]

Originally posted by TexMike
What they appeared to have was defensive AND offensive pass interference. They could have flagged both and played the whole thing over. However, most expereinced refs will tell you in a case like that they throw no flags if the pass is incomplete. Thats what I see also from the pic, but you can't see the play develop... I can see where if the offensive player is slowing the defender catching and pulling back on his arm. I can also see how the official on the backside could not tell what was happening and I sure don't see how the ref would be in position to overrule him other than a blatantly uncatchable pass.

[BwdLion73]

Well in defense of the ref. in the photo I dont think he could see the defenders arm.

[Eagle 1]

Originally posted by BwdLion73
Well in defense of the ref. in the photo I dont think he could see the defenders arm.

Then why did he throw the flag on them to begin with?

[TexMike]

Originally posted by pancho villa
TexMike I have one for you. Last night in the Freshman game, the other team throws a TD pass. A lineman is down field. The side judge on our side said "I saw it but it is not my call" So we ask the head Ref. He points to side judge judge and says"It is his call"
Who makes this call? Anyone, side judge, or just only the back judge? #1 One of the first things officials are taught is to NEVER say "it is not my call". For doing that alone the official has "failed" on this play.

#2 Linemen downfield is the call of the sideline officials and the umpire (the guy, usually a pretty well-fed guy, who stands right behind the linebackers). The back judge (guy behind the defensive backs) would never make this call unless he noticed a player with an eligible number but who was covered up and then went downfield on a pass

[TexMike]

Originally posted by Eagle 1
Then why did he throw the flag on them to begin with?

He may have saw the "face guarding" and threw for that. Once someone reminded him there is no such thing in our game, he allowed the wave off.

[BwdLion73]

He thought faceguarding was illegal in High School maybe?

By the way how did the game turn out?

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by TexMike
#1 One of the first things officials are taught is to NEVER say "it is not my call". For doing that alone the official has "failed" on this play.

#2 Linemen downfield is the call of the sideline officials and the umpire (the guy, usually a pretty well-fed guy, who stands right behind the linebackers The back judge (guy behind the defensive backs) would never make this call unless he noticed a player with an eligible number but who was covered up and then went downfield on a pass

LOL@well-fed. Them U's gonna get ya Mike.

[GreenMonster]

The classiest thing ever happened to us last night in our Jr Hi game. The PA announcer called down to the referee on the field by his first name, AWESOME! By the way, we only had 2 officials and both of them had kids on the other team (away game at another 2A school near Decatur.) We kicked off from our own 10 once because they said we had 2 seperate dead ball fouls so they marked them both off. It was lousy officiating and we should have won by 3 or 4 TD's but instead we had to run a kick off back with 24 seconds to go to get the win. Oh well, at least we won.

[Eagle 1]

Originally posted by BwdLion73
He thought faceguarding was illegal in High School maybe?

By the way how did the game turn out?

He first signaled pass inteference, until they huddled up.

We lost 24-21.
The thing about the play was that it happened late in the 4th qtr with the game tied 21-21.
If the play had happened sometime in the first qtr. most people including myself probably wound't have talked much about it.
After that play, the momentum of the game changed.
We were in control up until that play on 3rd down.

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by GreenMonster
The classiest thing ever happened to us last night in our Jr Hi game. The PA announcer called down to the referee on the field by his first name, AWESOME! By the way, we only had 2 officials and both of them had kids on the other team (away game at another 2A school near Decatur.) We kicked off from our own 10 once because they said we had 2 seperate dead ball fouls so they marked them both off. It was lousy officiating and we should have won by 3 or 4 TD's but instead we had to run a kick off back with 24 seconds to go to get the win. Oh well, at least we won.

GM, we are short handed. Help us out and become an official. Then maybe your sub var games will have 3 atleast. Glad ya'll won still.

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by Eagle 1
He first signaled pass inteference, until they huddled up.

We lost 24-21.
The thing about the play was that it happened late in the 4th qtr with the game tied 21-21.
If the play had happened sometime in the first qtr. most people including myself probably wound't have talked much about it.
After that play, the momentum of the game changed.
We were in control up until that play on 3rd down.

Man, tuff loss Eagle. This photo is just a bad one to use to sale your position. Sure appears a hand to the face by #20 to this viewer, I see holding, I see what could be double pass inter. fouls, but I don't see the ball.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
GM, we are short handed. Help us out and become an official. Then maybe your sub var games will have 3 atleast. Glad ya'll won still.

Can someone coach and ref at the same time??:thinking:

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Can someone coach and ref at the same time??:thinking:

Sure, happens every game I have:)

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
Sure, happens every game I have:)

So he could get paid for both at the same time?? AWESOME!!!:)

[YTBulldogs]

RM, I was kidding. Coaches on Friday's sometimes think they are officials.

I will say if UIL locks us out Nov 1st, I'm sure you'll have coaches officiating games. They'd have to, to cover all the games at all levels. Even the school janitor might don the stripes.

[GreenMonster]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
Sure, happens every game I have:) Well, in that case, I want my paycheck because when I tried to contest the decision to mark off both fouls I was over ruled! haha! I understand there only being 2 officials, but if they are both local guys with kids on the team at least try to conceal it from the opposing coaches. It just looks real bad to our parents, who by the way were going bananas in the stands while we just rolled with it.

[Eagle 1]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
Man, tuff loss Eagle. This photo is just a bad one to use to sale your position. Sure appears a hand to the face by #20 to this viewer, I see holding, I see what could be double pass inter. fouls, but I don't see the ball.

No big deal, like I said you had to be there to really understand and see what happened. If I ever get film footage I'll post it.

If my health would allow, I wouldn't mind being a ref at least on Thursday nights.
Incidently all four of the officials who done our Thursday night games were from here. They always seem to call the game more tougher on our kids then they do the other team. I guess it helps our boys in the long run.

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by GreenMonster
Well, in that case, I want my paycheck because when I tried to contest the decision to mark off both fouls I was over ruled! haha! I understand there only being 2 officials, but if they are both local guys with kids on the team at least try to conceal it from the opposing coaches. It just looks real bad to our parents, who by the way were going bananas in the stands while we just rolled with it.

Totally agree here.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
RM, I was kidding. Coaches on Friday's sometimes think they are officials.

I will say if UIL locks us out Nov 1st, I'm sure you'll have coaches officiating games. They'd have to, to cover all the games at all levels. Even the school janitor might don the stripes.


I knew what you were saying....just funnin with ya!!


One of the best officiated games I witnessed was one that the officals had gotten screwed up somehow and were booked for 2 different games at the same time.

Both schools "officials" talked and decided to have 3 dads from each team ref the game.....it was one of the most smoothly run games I have ever attended.

[GATAPride77]

TexMike I have one for you. Last night in the Freshman game, the other team throws a TD pass. A lineman is down field. The side judge on our side said "I saw it but it is not my call" So we ask the head Ref. He points to side judge judge and says"It is his call"
Who makes this call? Anyone, side judge, or just only the back judge?


__________________






I'm sure Mike will give you his input also. In this game, depending on game load that week and/or available number of officials, there are most likely 3 or 4 officials calling this game. If there are three then there is a greater potential for illegal man downfield could be missed since there is no umpire in the middle.

The umpire is the primary official who watches for this with secondary help from his wing officials. In a three man crew the wing officials then are responsible for watching for this, but it could be a secondary read depending on how the play developed. In other words the receivers to his side may have gone deep thus taking him away from the line of scrimmage.

Also this is a freshman game so you are getting young officials who are hopefully working with veterans, but they do not have less game experience. They are also covering all 22 players with fewer officials so it is expected that things that may be caught on Friday night will be missed on Thursday night. You have fewer officials and less experienced ones.

I hope they would learn is not to ever say “it’s not may call” or “that is his call”. They should suck it up and just say, “coach we may have missed that” and leave it at that. If they did say this it leads me to think they were of the less seasoned variety.

Also you said man downfield, you don’t say how far. Do you know how far an ineligible man can be downfield? Its 3 yds and after the pass leaves the QB hands he can be as far as he wants. In other words as the pass is in the air he can bust it downfield and if it’s a long pass he can be considerably downfield when pass is caught. Most of the time coaches and fans are watching the ball in flight and the action of the receivers, by the time they focus back to the OL he could be easily 10 yds downfield but it is perfectly legal but the fan/coach did not see the whole play.

Also to note, If the pass is behind the line of scrimmage then there no foul for illegal man downfield.

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I knew what you were saying....just funnin with ya!!


One of the best officiated games I witnessed was one that the officals had gotten screwed up somehow and were booked for 2 different games at the same time.

Both schools "officials" talked and decided to have 3 dads from each team ref the game.....it was one of the most smoothly run games I have ever attended.

I hope for the kids sake (and my son plays HS ball) that if we get locked out by UIL, the dad's, tennis coaches, track coaches, janitors (whoever they can get to call) call like that game you witnessed RM.

To me, UIL timing is sad. Don't you think after the season would be best?

[coach]

sorry you guys are all wrong


http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR09.pdf




g. There shall be no piling on, falling on or throwing the body on an
opponent after the ball becomes dead (A.R. 9-1-2-X).
h. No opponent shall tackle or block the ball carrier when he is clearly out
of bounds or throw him to the ground after the ball becomes dead.
i. There shall be no hurdling (Exception: The ball carrier may hurdle an
opponent.).
j. No player shall run into or throw himself against an opponent obviously
out of the play either before or after the ball is dead (A.R. 9-1-2-XVI).
k. No player shall continuously contact an opponent’s helmet (including
the face mask) with hand(s) or arm(s) (Exception: By or against the ball
carrier).
l. No defensive player shall charge into a passer or throw him to the
ground when it is obvious the ball has been thrown. This is roughing
the passer. The penalty is added to the end of the last run when it ends
beyond the neutral zone and there is no change of team possession
during the down (Exception: A defensive player who is blocked by a
Team A player[s] with a force so that he has no opportunity to avoid
contact with the passer. However, this does not relieve the defensive
player of responsibility for personal fouls as described in Rule 9-1-2-a.)
(A.R. 2-30-4-I and II; A.R. 9-1-2-XI, XXII and XXIII; A.R. 10-2-1-I and
II; and A.R.10-2-2-XXIII).
m. There shall be no chop blocking (A.R. 2-3-3-III and IV, A.R. 9-1-2-
XXVI).
RULE 9-1 / CONDUCT OF PLAYE RS AND OTHERS SUBJECT TO RULES FR-119
n. No defensive player, in an attempt to gain an advantage, may step, jump
or stand on an opponent (Rule 9-3-5-b). No defensive player who runs
forward from beyond the neutral zone and leaps from beyond the neutral
zone in an obvious attempt to block a field goal or try may land on any
player(s). It is not a foul if the leaping player was aligned in a stationary
position within one yard of the line of scrimmage when the ball was
snapped.
o. When a team is in scrimmage kick formation, a defensive player may not
initiate contact with the snapper until one second has elapsed after the
snap (A.R. 9-1-2-XVIII-XX).
p. All players are prohibited from grabbing the inside back collar of the
shoulder pads or jersey, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder
pads or jersey, and immediately pulling the ball carrier down. This does
not apply to a ball carrier, including a potential passer, who is inside the
tackle box (Rule 2-34).
q. No player shall twist, turn or pull the face mask, chin strap or any helmet
opening of an opponent. It is not a foul if the face mask, chin strap or
helmet opening is not twisted, turned or pulled. When in question, it is a
foul (A.R. 9-1-2-XII).
PENALTY (a-q)—15 yards. For dead-ball fouls, 15 yards from the
succeeding spot. Automatic first down for Team B fouls if
the first down is not in conflict with other rules (Exception:
Penalties for Team A personal fouls behind the neutral zone
are enforced from the previous spot. Safety if the foul occurs
behind Team A’s goal line) [S7, S24, S34, S38, S39, S40, S41
or S46]. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified [S47].
For Team A fouls during free or scrimmage kick plays (field
goal plays exempted): Enforcement may be at the previous
spot or the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to
Team B (Rules 6-1-8 and 6-3-13).
Initiating Contact/Targeting an Opponent
ARTICLE 3. a. No player shall initiate contact and target an opponent with
the crown (top) of his helmet. When in question, it is a foul.
FR-120 RULE 9-1 / CONDUCT OF PLAYE RS AND OTHERS SUBJECT TO RULES
b. No player shall initiate contact and target a defenseless opponent
above the shoulders. When in question, it is a foul. (Refer to Points of
Emphasis for a description of “Defenseless Player.”)
PENALTY (a-b)—Personal foul, 15 yards. For dead-ball fouls, 15 yards
from the succeeding spot. Also, automatic first down for
Team B fouls if not in conflict with other rules. (Exception:
Penalties for Team A personal fouls behind the neutral zone
are enforced from the previous spot. Safety if the foul occurs
behind Team A’s goal line) [S7, S24, S34, S38, S39, S40, S41,
S45 or S46]. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified [S47].
For Team A fouls during free or scrimmage kick plays (field
goal plays exempted): Enforcement may be at the previous
spot or the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to
Team B (Rules 6-1-8 and 6-3-13).
Note: See Rule 9-6 for mandatory conference review procedures.For dead-ball fouls, 15 yards from the succeeding spot. Automatic first down

[3afan]

Originally posted by Eagle 1
Our guy ....

proves you are biased .....

[coach]

whats the difference when a rb gets hit after being talked? a late hit is a late hit. how many times have you seen drives continue due to a late hit?

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by coach
sorry you guys are all wrong


http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR09.pdf




g. There shall be no piling on, falling on or throwing the body on an
opponent after the ball becomes dead (A.R. 9-1-2-X).
h. No opponent shall tackle or block the ball carrier when he is clearly out
of bounds or throw him to the ground after the ball becomes dead.
i. There shall be no hurdling (Exception: The ball carrier may hurdle an
opponent.).
j. No player shall run into or throw himself against an opponent obviously
out of the play either before or after the ball is dead (A.R. 9-1-2-XVI).
k. No player shall continuously contact an opponent’s helmet (including
the face mask) with hand(s) or arm(s) (Exception: By or against the ball
carrier).
l. No defensive player shall charge into a passer or throw him to the
ground when it is obvious the ball has been thrown. This is roughing
the passer. The penalty is added to the end of the last run when it ends
beyond the neutral zone and there is no change of team possession
during the down (Exception: A defensive player who is blocked by a
Team A player[s] with a force so that he has no opportunity to avoid
contact with the passer. However, this does not relieve the defensive
player of responsibility for personal fouls as described in Rule 9-1-2-a.)
(A.R. 2-30-4-I and II; A.R. 9-1-2-XI, XXII and XXIII; A.R. 10-2-1-I and
II; and A.R.10-2-2-XXIII).
m. There shall be no chop blocking (A.R. 2-3-3-III and IV, A.R. 9-1-2-
XXVI).
RULE 9-1 / CONDUCT OF PLAYE RS AND OTHERS SUBJECT TO RULES FR-119
n. No defensive player, in an attempt to gain an advantage, may step, jump
or stand on an opponent (Rule 9-3-5-b). No defensive player who runs
forward from beyond the neutral zone and leaps from beyond the neutral
zone in an obvious attempt to block a field goal or try may land on any
player(s). It is not a foul if the leaping player was aligned in a stationary
position within one yard of the line of scrimmage when the ball was
snapped.
o. When a team is in scrimmage kick formation, a defensive player may not
initiate contact with the snapper until one second has elapsed after the
snap (A.R. 9-1-2-XVIII-XX).
p. All players are prohibited from grabbing the inside back collar of the
shoulder pads or jersey, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder
pads or jersey, and immediately pulling the ball carrier down. This does
not apply to a ball carrier, including a potential passer, who is inside the
tackle box (Rule 2-34).
q. No player shall twist, turn or pull the face mask, chin strap or any helmet
opening of an opponent. It is not a foul if the face mask, chin strap or
helmet opening is not twisted, turned or pulled. When in question, it is a
foul (A.R. 9-1-2-XII).
PENALTY (a-q)—15 yards. For dead-ball fouls, 15 yards from the
succeeding spot. Automatic first down for Team B fouls if
the first down is not in conflict with other rules (Exception:
Penalties for Team A personal fouls behind the neutral zone
are enforced from the previous spot. Safety if the foul occurs
behind Team A’s goal line) [S7, S24, S34, S38, S39, S40, S41
or S46]. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified [S47].
For Team A fouls during free or scrimmage kick plays (field
goal plays exempted): Enforcement may be at the previous
spot or the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to
Team B (Rules 6-1-8 and 6-3-13).
Initiating Contact/Targeting an Opponent
ARTICLE 3. a. No player shall initiate contact and target an opponent with
the crown (top) of his helmet. When in question, it is a foul.
FR-120 RULE 9-1 / CONDUCT OF PLAYE RS AND OTHERS SUBJECT TO RULES
b. No player shall initiate contact and target a defenseless opponent
above the shoulders. When in question, it is a foul. (Refer to Points of
Emphasis for a description of “Defenseless Player.”)
PENALTY (a-b)—Personal foul, 15 yards. For dead-ball fouls, 15 yards
from the succeeding spot. Also, automatic first down for
Team B fouls if not in conflict with other rules. (Exception:
Penalties for Team A personal fouls behind the neutral zone
are enforced from the previous spot. Safety if the foul occurs
behind Team A’s goal line) [S7, S24, S34, S38, S39, S40, S41,
S45 or S46]. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified [S47].
For Team A fouls during free or scrimmage kick plays (field
goal plays exempted): Enforcement may be at the previous
spot or the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to
Team B (Rules 6-1-8 and 6-3-13).
Note: See Rule 9-6 for mandatory conference review procedures.

Not after a change of possession. You said both were on 4th down, and came after the play. Deadball. Thus, change of possession had happened.

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by coach
whats the difference when a rb gets hit after being talked? a late hit is a late hit. how many times have you seen drives continue due to a late hit?

Not on 4th down, and line to make wasn't reached.

[coach]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
Not after a change of possession. You said both were on 4th down, and came after the play. Deadball. Thus, change of possession had happened.

show me in the rule book...and if thats the case then there is a loop hole in the rule book...neither teams gets punished for demolishing a defensless athlete.

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by coach
show me in the rule book...and if thats the case then there is a loop hole in the rule book...neither teams gets punished for demolishing a defensless athlete.

Sure, your still going to enforce the penality. When your QB gets smashed late (deadball, after play) on 4th down, and didn't make the 1st down, ball goes over and you mark off 15 yards to the other team who now has the ball.

Your having issues here with the 4th down, and when a change of possession ends.

[coach]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
Sure, your still going to enforce the penality. When your QB gets smashed late (deadball, after play) on 4th down, and didn't make the 1st down, ball goes over and you mark off 15 yards to the other team who now has the ball.

Your having issues here with the 4th down, and when a change of possession ends.

last night they were penalized 4 yards...and i guess the uil needs to tell all coaches bc both coaching staffs were on the field after both calls. after the second call both coaches went on the field and looked at each other like whatever he called both ways ow well. i an intern for a high school to be a coach and i find my self to be pretty knowledgeable of the game. i guess you learn something new everyday but i will not be completely sold until i see it somewhere else again or somebody shows me a rule book. you guys may be right but i think with todays game ppl are so worried about injuries and sissyfying the game by not being able to touch the qb i think they need to look at this rule again and change it to an automatic first down for the offense

[GreenMonster]

Originally posted by TexMike
#1 One of the first things officials are taught is to NEVER say "it is not my call". For doing that alone the official has "failed" on this play.

Cool. I will never accept that as a viable answer from an official ever again now! Thanks for the tip Mike! I've always wanted to use that against them whenever they say that and then come back later on when we get on them for throwing a flag from the total opposite side of the field and they answer that they call what they see. "Well 5 minutes ago it wasn't your call and now you call what you see so just what in the hell is it that you are looking at?" That should get me a good warning! Haha! Honestly, I respect the guys that go out there and do this very thankless job. Most of the time neither coaching staff is happy and neither are the fans. I try to be nice and cordial even when I am disputing a call. I just try to remember that I am emotionally involved and these guys are not and that they don't deserve to get pummelled by my words. I try to get explanations and raise questions and try to get them to get together and talk about it and at least attempt to get it right. That's all any of us can really hope for is a team of officials that are willing to at least hear your argument and then get together and discuss it as a group to get the call right. The basketball and baseball officials around here do a much better job of this. Our football guys on the other hand, do a terrible job of communicating with us on the sideline for the most part and rarely ever get together to discuss anything. If anyone gets together it's usually the white hat and the umpire and they have no idea what we are carrying on about because the guy on our sideline didn't bother to relay our question.

[GATAPride77]

show me in the rule book...and if thats the case then there is a loop hole in the rule book...neither teams gets punished for demolishing a defensless athlete.





2009/10 Rulebook, FI 84
Dead Ball Fouls Article 5
Approved Rullings 10-1-5-II.

With fourth and eight, Team A gains four yards and the ball is declared dead, after which B1 is called for piling on. RULING: Team B personal foul. Penalty—15 yards from the succeeding spot.First and 10 for Team B (Rule 5-1-1-c). The clock starts on the
snap.

5-1-1-c
A new series shall be awarded to Team B if, after fourth down, Team A has failed to earn a first down

[TexMike]

Originally posted by coach
last night they were penalized 4 yards...and i guess the uil needs to tell all coaches bc both coaching staffs were on the field after both calls. after the second call both coaches went on the field and looked at each other like whatever he called both ways ow well. i an intern for a high school to be a coach and i find my self to be pretty knowledgeable of the game. i guess you learn something new everyday but i will not be completely sold until i see it somewhere else again or somebody shows me a rule book. you guys may be right but i think with todays game ppl are so worried about injuries and sissyfying the game by not being able to touch the qb i think they need to look at this rule again and change it to an automatic first down for the offense It is an auto 1st as long as it does not happen after 4th down when the offense has not yet made the line to gain. It is a penalty enforcement situation which is in Rule 10. When you are trying to understand the rules you typically have to refer to multiple sections of the book. The most critical section is Rule 2 - definitions. Then you have the various rules that talka bout what is legal or illegal and then you have Rule 10 that tells you how to enforce. Yes it is complictaed but that is why we get paid so handsomely for what we do. ;-)

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by GreenMonster
Cool. I will never accept that as a viable answer from an official ever again now! Thanks for the tip Mike! I've always wanted to use that against them whenever they say that and then come back later on when we get on them for throwing a flag from the total opposite side of the field and they answer that they call what they see. "Well 5 minutes ago it wasn't your call and now you call what you see so just what in the hell is it that you are looking at?" That should get me a good warning! Haha! Honestly, I respect the guys that go out there and do this very thankless job. Most of the time neither coaching staff is happy and neither are the fans. I try to be nice and cordial even when I am disputing a call. I just try to remember that I am emotionally involved and these guys are not and that they don't deserve to get pummelled by my words. I try to get explanations and raise questions and try to get them to get together and talk about it and at least attempt to get it right. That's all any of us can really hope for is a team of officials that are willing to at least hear your argument and then get together and discuss it as a group to get the call right. The basketball and baseball officials around here do a much better job of this. Our football guys on the other hand, do a terrible job of communicating with us on the sideline for the most part and rarely ever get together to discuss anything. If anyone gets together it's usually the white hat and the umpire and they have no idea what we are carrying on about because the guy on our sideline didn't bother to relay our question.

Our chapter stresses our wings communicate with the coaches. Issues we have mostly are with rookies. They are not totally sure yet what they are doing themselves.

[coach]

Originally posted by GATAPride77
show me in the rule book...and if thats the case then there is a loop hole in the rule book...neither teams gets punished for demolishing a defensless athlete.





2009/10 Rulebook, FI 84
Dead Ball Fouls Article 5
Approved Rullings 10-1-5-II.

With fourth and eight, Team A gains four yards and the ball is declared dead, after which B1 is called for piling on. RULING: Team B personal foul. Penalty—15 yards from the succeeding spot.First and 10 for Team B (Rule 5-1-1-c). The clock starts on the
snap.

thank you. well good job on the officals part. i will have to show that to the coaches later today. like i said you learn something everyday. i still think they should look at this rule again and i guess in the long run it didnt matter we still got our ass beat

[YTBulldogs]

Originally posted by coach
thank you. well good job on the officals part. i will have to show that to the coaches later today. like i said you learn something everyday. i still think they should look at this rule again and i guess in the long run it didnt matter we still got our ass beat

If you are a coach, after this post---I wanna work for you. Remember, you coaches write the rules, we enforce them.

[TexMike]

3d and 10 at the 50. Snap goes over your QB's head and he chases it back to the 20 (A 30 yard loss) where the QB falls on it. Defender , very late, flops on your QB. Flags fly. After enforcement it is your ball at the 35, 1st and 10. Want to go explain that to the defensive team's coach?

[YTBulldogs]

Coach, now go make a new thread---"This is how good official's are". ;)

[coach]

Originally posted by YTBulldogs
If you are a coach, after this post---I wanna work for you. Remember, you coaches write the rules, we enforce them.

call me in a couple of years and i might hire you lol

[Eagle 1]

Originally posted by 3afan
proves you are biased .....

Of course I am as are most fans, but that's not the point here.

[3afan]

Originally posted by Eagle 1
Of course I am as are most fans, but that's not the point here.

but it makes you "see" something different than what an unbiased official might see ... hence the 2 interpretations of the play you brought up

[Caldwell_Raider]

Originally posted by Eagle 1
Even when they huddle up, they don't always get it right.
Here's an example with a picture to prove it.

A few years ago we were in the final minutes of a tied playoff game.
Our receiver breaks open and the ball is thrown perfect, but the defender reaches out a grabs the receivers arm preventing him from catching the ball. A clear case of pass interference, so the official in the background of the picture throws a flag. The opposing team's coach runs out on the field yelling at the head official that it was "face gaurding" and that it is legal in high school football to "face gaurd".
The official's huddle up and decide it was face gaurding and pick up the flag. That changed the whole momentum of the game and we end up losing by 3 points.
IMO, if your an official and you have the balls to throw a flag, then have the balls to stand behind your call. Don't let the coach or the other officials talk you out of what you called.
Here is the picture, as you can see the defender had hold of the reciever.
Even though the ball is not in the picture, it was completely a catchable pass. After waiving off the flag, the official told our coach that "he thought he seen pass interference but couldn't be sure", even though he had thrown the flag. :rolleyes:

Incidently, #20 on our team had already scored one TD on a similiar pass play.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2lieez7.jpg


I'm a defensive minded person.... I could call offensive pass interference with the arm bar the receiver is using....

[Phil C]

I remember late in our State Championship Game with Everman late in the game they were ahead by about 4 points and had it fourth and seven at our seven yard line with just over three minutes. They threw a pass and it looked like the receiver caught it on a bounce but the refs signaled a td. This put it a two possession lead for them so the game was practically decided. Later films showed clearly what happened. We should have had the ball first and ten at our seven. Of course the momentum even then favored Everman and it would have been hard to have marched down the field and score on their defense then but I sure would have like to have had that shot slim as it was.

[Eagle 1]

Originally posted by 3afan
but it makes you "see" something different than what an unbiased official might see ... hence the 2 interpretations of the play you brought up

I have a friend of mine from Windthorst (bobcat1 knows who I am talking about..."Windthorstfan") who told me after the game that they were lucky the flag was picked up and that he thought it was pass interference too.
So I'm not just being biased on this one.

Momentum swing in a playoff game is a very BIG thing.

[TexMike]

I don't think anyone is saying there may not have been pass interference. But you are ignoring there was also likely a foul by "your" player and that was not called either.

[3afan]

Originally posted by Eagle 1
... told me after the game that they were lucky the flag was picked up and that he thought it was pass interference too.
...

well that settles it I guess ... :rolleyes: