Rangers Win!

[bigwood33]

They beat the Yankees 4-3 in 10! Let's go Rangers!

[bwdlionfan]

Originally posted by bigwood33
They beat the Yankees 4-3 in 10! Let's go Rangers!

Murphy sure has come on lately... I used to mark it up as an out when he'd come to the plate. Tonight 2 walks, a 2 run shot, and a walk off single.

[SintonFan_inAustin]

Originally posted by bwdlionfan
Murphy sure has come on lately... I used to mark it up as an out when he'd come to the plate. Tonight 2 walks, a 2 run shot, and a walk off single. mark down Elvis Andrus with 2 strikes looking in each bat. Leadoff with Murphy and move Elvis down in the lineup, i'm hoping.

[coach]

Originally posted by bwdlionfan
Murphy sure has come on lately... I used to mark it up as an out when he'd come to the plate. Tonight 2 walks, a 2 run shot, and a walk off single.

dont forget he hosed a guy down at home

[coach]

Originally posted by SintonFan_inAustin
mark down Elvis Andrus with 2 strikes looking in each bat. Leadoff with Murphy and move Elvis down in the lineup, i'm hoping.

lol wow

[SintonFan_inAustin]

Originally posted by coach
lol wow :D

[Keith7]

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy57/apoplecticfittz/TexasRangergifs/win.gif

[Farmersfan]

Any thoughts on Cliff Lee's performance tonight? Another Rangers win or can the Yanks even up the series?

[95mustang]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Any thoughts on Cliff Lee's performance tonight? Another Rangers win or can the Yanks even up the series?

Rangers chances of winning tonight are better than they were last night in my opinion. Vasquez is not the best pitcher on the Yankees roster and Lee just happens to be the ace for the Rangers right now. If Lee performs up to expectations I like to Rangers chances. :)

[bigwood33]

I expect Cliff Lee to do his job tonight but there is no way that another night of 3 errors will go unpunished. The offense also needs to step up and score 4 or 5 runs.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by bigwood33
I expect Cliff Lee to do his job tonight but there is no way that another night of 3 errors will go unpunished. The offense also needs to step up and score 4 or 5 runs.





It seems to me that Lee has been outstanding in his previous starts but the offense has given him very little run support. I'm a little concerned with the lack of hitting from the boys lately. Vlad has basically gone into a really bad streak. Maybe tonight will be the night they all get untracked.

[jlwttu]

Brutal lose tonight by the Rangers. Leadoff triple by Elvis and Young/Hamilton/Vlad go down on 6 pitches...ugh.

[Farmersfan]

I repeat what I have been saying for a couple of years now: Ron Washington is NOT a very good manager. There is ZERO excuses for not getting the game tied with a runner at 3rd and no outs in the bottom of the 9th. ZERO!!!!!!! I don't care if Babe Ruth is up in this situation you have to get that runner home.

[coach]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I repeat what I have been saying for a couple of years now: Ron Washington is NOT a very good manager. There is ZERO excuses for not getting the game tied with a runner at 3rd and no outs in the bottom of the 9th. ZERO!!!!!!! I don't care if Babe Ruth is up in this situation you have to get that runner home.

so how was that rons fault?

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by coach
so how was that rons fault?




What play does a offense have at it's disposal that gives them the best opportunity for success???? And who is responsible for calling that play??

Although most players don't like the sacrifice bunt it is the best tool at their disposal for getting a run accross the plate. I don't pretend to be a big baseball fan so perhaps you can shed some light on this: Isn't the bunt about a 75% success at moving a runner to the next base? That's compared to a much lesser success rate for the Sacrifice fly and certainly much lesser than a base hit. (even by the best hitter on the team).

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by coach
so how was that rons fault?




Isn't the failure to bunt a run home in this situation exactly like a coach in the NFL going for 2 and the win instead of kicking the extra point for a tie????? Coaches don't last long when they fail in those situations.

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Isn't the failure to bunt a run home in this situation exactly like a coach in the NFL going for 2 and the win instead of kicking the extra point for a tie????? Coaches don't last long when they fail in those situations.

Squeeze bunts are far less successful than the normal bunt. There's no way you risk losing the game on a bunt attempt when you've got three chances to put the ball into the outfield for a run.

The "play" in that situation is to attempt a sacrifice fly. Hit the ball to the outfield. I'm sure that's what Young and Josh tried, but it's not that simple, especially against the greatest closer of all-time and one of the game's best ground-ball pitchers.

With two outs, Vlad has no choice but to try to get a base hit in whatever way he can.

[coach]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Isn't the failure to bunt a run home in this situation exactly like a coach in the NFL going for 2 and the win instead of kicking the extra point for a tie????? Coaches don't last long when they fail in those situations.

no outs on 3rd and you want to bunt? how about a sac fly?

[skins4life]

farmer did say he wasn't a big baseball fan, so maybe he doesn't realize that with a runner on 3rd and no outs, the infield is in on the grass so it is more likely for a hit to get through than a squeeze bunt working. Also the right fielder was playing more shallow with the infield on the grass. Young's fly ball would've fallen in if he had been playing in his regular position.

[eagles_victory]

If Ron calls for a squeeze bunt (with three guys coming up who never bunt because there such good hitters.) Micheal could miss the bunt and Elvis is dead to rights. Mike could pop the bunt up and a double play. So many things could go wrong if Ron squeezes there and it goes wrong people are calling for him to be cleaning out his office right now.

[Keith7]

You don't call a squeeze play in the ninth inning with no outs and your three best hitters coming to the plate.. that's just silly..

Now using Frank Francisco in the eighth inning for the second night in a row coupled with his recent problems is a questionable call..

[BullsFan]

Originally posted by Keith7
Now using Frank Francisco in the eighth inning for the second night in a row coupled with his recent problems is a questionable call..

THIS more than anything. Francisco isn't reliable enough playing a team of this caliber. Or of any caliber at the moment, really.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
Squeeze bunts are far less successful than the normal bunt. There's no way you risk losing the game on a bunt attempt when you've got three chances to put the ball into the outfield for a run.

The "play" in that situation is to attempt a sacrifice fly. Hit the ball to the outfield. I'm sure that's what Young and Josh tried, but it's not that simple, especially against the greatest closer of all-time and one of the game's best ground-ball pitchers.

With two outs, Vlad has no choice but to try to get a base hit in whatever way he can.



Well I certainly learned something today. I was under the impression that a sacrifice bunt was about a 75% success rate. That's why it seems so silly to not bring that runner home with a bunt. I still think it should be easier to lay down a bunt than to get a sacrifice fly.
But thanks for the info guys!

[Farmersfan]

I really didn't think I was crazy folks!!!



"When we use those two criteria we find that sacrifices were successful 76.2% of the time in 2005. The teams ranked by success rate were:

Team SacA Succ Pct
KCA 60 50 83.3%
SEA 61 50 82.0%
BOS 22 18 81.8%
TEX 11 9 81.8%
ANA 60 49 81.7%
BAL 54 44 81.5%
CLE 54 44 81.5%
HOU 113 92 81.4%
DET 57 46 80.7%
SFN 118 95 80.5%
TBA 51 41 80.4%
NYA 44 35 79.5%
MIN 60 47 78.3%
TOR 30 23 76.7%
OAK 30 23 76.7%
CIN 80 61 76.3%
FLO 125 95 76.0%
SLN 112 85 75.9%
COL 126 95 75.4%
PHI 93 70 75.3%
ATL 108 81 75.0%
ARI 101 75 74.3%
MIL 108 80 74.1%
NYN 96 71 74.0%
WAS 132 96 72.7%
CHN 98 71 72.4%
SDN 101 73 72.3%
LAN 86 62 72.1%
PIT 90 63 70.0%
CHA 74 50 67.6%


And of course squeeze plays are always a good bet when you need a single run since they're often successful (over 86% of the time with a runner on third).



Information provided by:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/not-so-sweet-surrender/

[Keith7]

I think you don't understand when you are supposed to use the sacrifice bunt in baseball is the problem..

[Keith7]

A runner on third, nobody out and your three best hitters coming up, you let them swing the bat.

A sacrifice bunt would mean that Andrus wouldn't break to the plate until after the ball is bunted, the percentage of him being safe in that case I would guess would be something like 5% chance..

A suicide squeeze would be a better choice but still not smart in that situation. A suicide squeeze means he breaks for the plate as soon as Rivera started to throw and the batter tries to lay down the bunt. A number of things could go wrong in this scenario. The batter could miss the bunt leaving Andrus out to dry, the pitcher could pitch out once Andrus breaks again leaving Andrus out to dry, the batter could bunt and pop it up to one of the infielders, the batter could foul the ball giving away the play, etc. So his chance to score there would likely be about 20% chance..

Now you go by conventional baseball logic and you let your three best batters swing the bat needing only a base hit (with the chances increased since the infield was in) or a sacrifice fly and you have probably about a 85% chance to score the run..

Problem is that last night was a scenario that falls into the 15% category..

Also, my h.s. baseball coach used to preach that there are 11 ways to score from third base. Balk, sacrifice fly, passed ball, single, etc. There's no reason to use a high risk play and give up an out and the possible tying run when there are much better ways to get it

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Keith7
I think you don't understand when you are supposed to use the sacrifice bunt in baseball is the problem..



You are probably right Keith! Why would I ever think something that is successful 86% of the time would be a better decision? What was I thinking? :D

[Keith7]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
You are probably right Keith! Why would I ever think something that is successful 86% of the time would be a better decision? What was I thinking? :D

because you are throwing out stats for people bunting people over from first to second or second to third and applying them to a suicide squeeze play...

Oh also did I mention that you want your three best batters to bunt?? :doh:

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Keith7
because you are throwing out stats for people bunting people over from first to second or second to third and applying them to a suicide squeeze play...

Oh also did I mention that you want your three best batters to bunt?? :doh:




Read it again Keith!

QUOTE:

"And of course squeeze plays are always a good bet when you need a single run since they're often successful (over 86% of the time with a runner on third)."


The only thing that would convince me otherwise is a statistic that shows sacrifice flys are more successful than bunts and I have not been able to find that. Can you?

[Keith7]

How you really don't get it do you?? I thought you have been joking this whole time.. Trying to bunt a runner home is not a sacrifice.. They will throw home and get the runner out everytime.. Ron would be fired on the spot if he did that because it is by far the dumbest thing you could do in that situation.

[Emerson1]

Keith is right.

[ccmom]

Originally posted by Emerson1
Keith is right. Keith, you probably won't see those three words posted very often, so I thought I'd say it, too.........Keith is right!:D Either FF, just doesn't "get it" or he just likes to argue..maybe both. :)

[95mustang]

Originally posted by ccmom
Keith, you probably won't see those three words posted very often, so I thought I'd say it, too.........Keith is right!:D Either FF, just doesn't "get it" or he just likes to argue..maybe both. :)

I bet that was hard to say. :D

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by ccmom
Keith, you probably won't see those three words posted very often, so I thought I'd say it, too.........Keith is right!:D Either FF, just doesn't "get it" or he just likes to argue..maybe both. :)



It certainly is a little of both. Everyone on the forum needs to stop simply telling me I don't get it and show me how it is a "dumb play". I have shown you where statstics show it is successful 86% of the time to sacrifice bunt the runner home from 3rd! Even your 3 BEST BATTERS can't come close to that percentage for either hits or sacrifice flys against a pitcher like Rivera. So show where a sacrifice bunt is a worst choice than allowing them to swing-away!!!!!!
And it isn't an arguement until someone ELSE provides some information! Right now it's simply Me teaching YOU what is fact and what is opinion!
Now let's see if that will get things fired up! :D :D :D

[ccmom]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
It certainly is a little of both. Everyone on the forum needs to stop simply telling me I don't get it and show me how it is a "dumb play". I have shown you where statstics show it is successful 86% of the time to sacrifice bunt the runner home from 3rd! Even your 3 BEST BATTERS can't come close to that percentage for either hits or sacrifice flys against a pitcher like Rivera. So show where a sacrifice bunt is a worst choice than allowing them to swing-away!!!!!!
And it isn't an arguement until someone ELSE provides some information! Right now it's simply Me teaching YOU what is fact and what is opinion!
Now let's see if that will get things fired up! :D :D :D So, I'm supposed to believe that, according to your stats, the Marlins attempted a squeeze play 125 times in one season....with 0 outs, a runner on 3rd and 3 of their best hitters up next? :doh: I call BS.:rolleyes:

[Keith7]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
It certainly is a little of both. Everyone on the forum needs to stop simply telling me I don't get it and show me how it is a "dumb play". I have shown you where statstics show it is successful 86% of the time to sacrifice bunt the runner home from 3rd! Even your 3 BEST BATTERS can't come close to that percentage for either hits or sacrifice flys against a pitcher like Rivera. So show where a sacrifice bunt is a worst choice than allowing them to swing-away!!!!!!
And it isn't an arguement until someone ELSE provides some information! Right now it's simply Me teaching YOU what is fact and what is opinion!
Now let's see if that will get things fired up! :D :D :D

To show you want you mean in football terms, what you are saying is that if a football team is driving to win the game in the fourth quarter with three minutes to go a team should run a FLEA FLICKER because the stats show that play action has worked 86% during the game

I don't care if you're Ted Williams mixed with Billy Martin mixed with Joe Girardi mixed with Bill James mixed with Billy Bean mixed with Joe Torre mixed with Tom Grieve mixed with Babe Ruth mixed with Mike Scocia mixed with Hank Aaron mixed with Jim Joyce mixed with Ty Cobb.. Nobody would have bunted in that situation

[Emerson1]

Andrus doesn't have blazing speed either.

[Keith7]

Originally posted by Emerson1
Andrus doesn't have blazing speed either.

Usain Bolt wouldn't have even made it home on a sacrifice bunt.. :doh:

[crzyjournalist03]

Hey everybody, shut up! Farmersfan found it on the internet, so it must be true!!!!

[jambo67]

Rivera isn't about to throw a pitch that can be bunted in that situation. The Rangers gambled right and tried to get lucky with a base hit. It's hard to beat the best closer in baseball two nights in a row. Nelson Cruz made some bad reads and cost TX the game.

[ccmom]

http://www.articlealley.com/article_1379284_32.html

"...It's not recommended to put on any type of squeeze play with NO outs. Too many potentially big innings have been ruined because of one batter simply missing a bunt or popping it up into a double play and you never want one pitch to let the other team off the hook. When the other team is in a little bit of trouble, let them earn their way out of trouble and don't help them. Even if three of the weakest hitters on the planet are coming up, I would not risk the safety or the suicide squeeze with no outs."


You can find whatever you want on the internet...
:p

[Keith7]

Originally posted by ccmom
http://www.articlealley.com/article_1379284_32.html

"...It's not recommended to put on any type of squeeze play with NO outs. Too many potentially big innings have been ruined because of one batter simply missing a bunt or popping it up into a double play and you never want one pitch to let the other team off the hook. When the other team is in a little bit of trouble, let them earn their way out of trouble and don't help them. Even if three of the weakest hitters on the planet are coming up, I would not risk the safety or the suicide squeeze with no outs."


You can find whatever you want on the internet...
:p


:clap: :clap: :clap:

[coach]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
It certainly is a little of both. Everyone on the forum needs to stop simply telling me I don't get it and show me how it is a "dumb play". I have shown you where statstics show it is successful 86% of the time to sacrifice bunt the runner home from 3rd! Even your 3 BEST BATTERS can't come close to that percentage for either hits or sacrifice flys against a pitcher like Rivera. So show where a sacrifice bunt is a worst choice than allowing them to swing-away!!!!!!
And it isn't an arguement until someone ELSE provides some information! Right now it's simply Me teaching YOU what is fact and what is opinion!
Now let's see if that will get things fired up! :D :D :D

its not 86% good on squeeze plays...the infield is in so they would field the bunt and throw hime he would be meat. you dont get it...with a M Y Josh and Vlad up you should not have to bunt. a squeeze is a once a year type thing. now they still should have gotten him home but its not on the coach

[D_bird]

Regardless of what happens, I think this series has given this team a taste of what could be, and will make them want it that much more.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by coach
its not 86% good on squeeze plays...the infield is in so they would field the bunt and throw hime he would be meat. you dont get it...with a M Y Josh and Vlad up you should not have to bunt. a squeeze is a once a year type thing. now they still should have gotten him home but its not on the coach



If one of those 3 had simply made good contact with the ball and brought the runner home we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Hindsight and the fact that they all failed makes me question the decision but apparently they did the right thing by going for a sac fly. I have seen numerous statements by people supporting the Ranger's decision. It seems that baseball purists seem to think of the sacrifice bunt as a "trick play" or a "undesireable play" but with the success rate of these plays it makes me wonder why it isn't executed more often. Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
If one of those 3 had simply made good contact with the ball and brought the runner home we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Hindsight and the fact that they all failed makes me question the decision but apparently they did the right thing by going for a sac fly. I have seen numerous statements by people supporting the Ranger's decision. It seems that baseball purists seem to think of the sacrifice bunt as a "trick play" or a "undesireable play" but with the success rate of these plays it makes me wonder why it isn't executed more often. Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

The article that you quoted seems to be almost sarcastic in its mention of the success rate of squeezes, although I can't read whether it was serious or not. But here's the issue with a squeeze play...whatever the success rate is, that's ONLY on plays where the batter actually gets the bunt down in fair territory.

The average at-bat lasts 4-5 pitches. If you're going to run the squeeze, you can only run it once (element of surprise, and if you miss, the runner is out). So take that 86% rate and divide it by 4.5 (the number of pitches in an at-bat, and you've only got a 19.11% chance of putting the play on on the correct pitch. If the pitcher throws a bad pitch to bunt (either a ball or the batter just misses it), the runner is out, and the play counts as a caught stealing and not a sacrifice attempt. And those numbers are assuming that the hitter is an average bunter. Considering how little Young, Hamilton, and Guererro have attempted sacrifice bunts (I believe it's less than 10 times combined in their careers) the reality is that those player probably are going to be a little below average at best on an attempt.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Keith7
I don't care if you're Ted Williams mixed with Billy Martin mixed with Joe Girardi mixed with Bill James mixed with Billy Bean mixed with Joe Torre mixed with Tom Grieve mixed with Babe Ruth mixed with Mike Scocia mixed with Hank Aaron mixed with Jim Joyce mixed with Ty Cobb.. Nobody would have bunted in that situation






http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/16/AR2010081605987.html


Nobody would have bunted in that situation


Bottom of 11th, 2 outs and a sqeeze bunt wins the game. Funny how NOBODY would bunt in that situation!!!!!!!

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
The article that you quoted seems to be almost sarcastic in its mention of the success rate of squeezes, although I can't read whether it was serious or not. But here's the issue with a squeeze play...whatever the success rate is, that's ONLY on plays where the batter actually gets the bunt down in fair territory.

The average at-bat lasts 4-5 pitches. If you're going to run the squeeze, you can only run it once (element of surprise, and if you miss, the runner is out). So take that 86% rate and divide it by 4.5 (the number of pitches in an at-bat, and you've only got a 19.11% chance of putting the play on on the correct pitch. If the pitcher throws a bad pitch to bunt (either a ball or the batter just misses it), the runner is out, and the play counts as a caught stealing and not a sacrifice attempt. And those numbers are assuming that the hitter is an average bunter. Considering how little Young, Hamilton, and Guererro have attempted sacrifice bunts (I believe it's less than 10 times combined in their careers) the reality is that those player probably are going to be a little below average at best on an attempt.



No offense intended Keith but this has to be the stupidest thing you have ever said. "You can only run it once"? Really? So wouldn't that equal ONLY 1 ATTEMPT? So why would you divide it by 4 or 5? Why would you count the other 3 or 4 at bats after a failed bunt as more failed bunts if the batter isn't trying to bunt???? 1 bunt attempt equals 4 or 5 failures in your world???



Baseball lesson for Keith7: (The ONLY difference in a bunt at bat and a normal at bat.)

The Knickerbocker Rules: "After the bunt came into existence as a strategy, it also became clear that a batter could literally bunt all day to try to get his pitch. To retain some balance, the rule was further amended, in 1894, to declare any foul bunt a strike."

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
No offense intended Keith but this has to be the stupidest thing you have ever said. "You can only run it once"? Really? So wouldn't that equal ONLY 1 ATTEMPT? So why would you divide it by 4 or 5? Why would you count the other 3 or 4 at bats after a failed bunt as more failed bunts if the batter isn't trying to bunt???? 1 bunt attempt equals 4 or 5 failures in your world???



Baseball lesson for Keith7: (The ONLY difference in a bunt at bat and a normal at bat.)

The Knickerbocker Rules: "After the bunt came into existence as a strategy, it also became clear that a batter could literally bunt all day to try to get his pitch. To retain some balance, the rule was further amended, in 1894, to declare any foul bunt a strike."




Sorry Keith7! It wasn't you that said this.............

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
No offense intended Keith but this has to be the stupidest thing you have ever said. "You can only run it once"? Really? So wouldn't that equal ONLY 1 ATTEMPT? So why would you divide it by 4 or 5? Why would you count the other 3 or 4 at bats after a failed bunt as more failed bunts if the batter isn't trying to bunt???? 1 bunt attempt equals 4 or 5 failures in your world???



Baseball lesson for Keith7: (The ONLY difference in a bunt at bat and a normal at bat.)

The Knickerbocker Rules: "After the bunt came into existence as a strategy, it also became clear that a batter could literally bunt all day to try to get his pitch. To retain some balance, the rule was further amended, in 1894, to declare any foul bunt a strike."

Reading comprehension really isn't a strong point of yours, is it?

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
Reading comprehension really isn't a strong point of yours, is it?



I comprende plenty my friend!
I said "no disrespect intended"! Doesn't that make a difference? :D

[Farmersfan]

The Baseball Coaching Bible:


1. The walk is the esiest and most productive element of team run production.

2. The threat of the walk allows a modest hitting talent to maximize bat speed and power by utilizing the zone hitting concept.

3. You must be able to execute the sacrifice bunt on demand.






http://books.google.com/books?id=8Dg9dtA2DRAC&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=the+easiest+offensive+play+to+execute+in+baseba ll&source=bl&ots=hl9l_Df3ef&sig=Ql_erFCGGUm1_LYeBSWL2KRK3IQ&hl=en&ei=qvFqTOlDxfuXB-z-nKgC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q&f=false

[ccmom]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/16/AR2010081605987.html


Nobody would have bunted in that situation


Bottom of 11th, 2 outs and a sqeeze bunt wins the game. Funny how NOBODY would bunt in that situation!!!!!!! What's even funnier is A) That is NOT the same situation B)How desperate you are for someone to argue with you. :rolleyes: