I love smart people

[Pick6]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/haroldestes.asp

[waterboy]

:clap: :clap: :clap: If only he would listen......

:wave:

[Farmersfan]

It is amazing how simple it all seems when viewed through the eyes of someone like this! Mr. Estes would be a pleasure to sit and just talk to for a while. I bet he could tell some stories that would amaze us all.....

[LE Dad]

You do not want to PO a Master Chief anything, much less a MCBM. That dude has got to be one mean SOB.:eek: :eek:

[MUSTANG69]

Originally posted by waterboy
:clap: :clap: :clap: If only he would listen......

:wave:

He won't. This type of patriotism is not part of his agenda. He would like to be rid of people like Mr. Estes.:mad:

[DDBooger]

I love smart people too. Anyone can lean on vets for a bump in support just ask Sarah Palin who punctuates any statement, no matter it's content, with God Bless the troops and a wink! ;) haha

March 4, 2006

President George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, D.C. 20500

Dear Mr. President:

As a young man I was honored to serve our nation as a commissioned officer and helicopter pilot in the
U. S. Navy. Before me in WWII, my father defended the country spending two years in the Pacific aboard the U.S.S. Hornet (CV-14). We were patriots sworn “to protect and defend”. Today I conclude that you have dishonored our service and the Constitution and principles of our oath. My dad was buried with full military honors so I cannot act for him. But for myself, I return enclosed the symbols of my years of service: the shoulder boards of my rank and my Naval Aviator’s wings.

Until your administration, I believed it was inconceivable that the United States would ever initiate an aggressive and preemptive war against a country that posed no threat to us. Until your administration, I thought it was impossible for our nation to take hundreds of persons into custody without provable charges of any kind, and to “disappear” them into holes like Gitmo, Abu Ghraib and Bagram. Until your administration, in my wildest legal fantasy I could not imagine a U.S. Attorney General seeking to justify torture or a President first stating his intent to veto an anti-torture law, and then adding a “signing statement” that he intends to ignore such law as he sees fit. I do not want these things done in my name.

As a citizen, a patriot, a parent and grandparent, a lawyer and law teacher I am left with such a feeling of loss and helplessness. I think of myself as a good American and I ask myself what can I do when I see the face of evil? Illegal and immoral war, torture and confinement for life without trial have never been part of our Constitutional tradition. But my vote has become meaningless because I live in a safe district drawn by your political party. My congressman is unresponsive to my concerns because his time is filled with lobbyists’ largess. Protests are limited to your “free speech zones”, out of sight of the parade. Even speaking openly is to risk being labeled un-American, pro-terrorist or anti-troops. And I am a disciplined pacifist, so any violent act is out of the question.

Nevertheless, to remain silent is to let you think I approve or support your actions. I do not. So, I am saddened to give up my wings and bars. They were hard won and my parents and wife were as proud as I was when I earned them over forty years ago. But I hate the torture and death you have caused more than I value their symbolism. Giving them up makes me cry for my beloved country.

Joseph W. DuRocher

[Pick6]

DD, where's the proof to show that's not a fake?

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by DDBooger
I love smart people too. Anyone can lean on vets for a bump in support just ask Sarah Palin who punctuates any statement, no matter it's content, with God Bless the troops and a wink! ;) haha

March 4, 2006

President George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, D.C. 20500

Dear Mr. President:

As a young man I was honored to serve our nation as a commissioned officer and helicopter pilot in the
U. S. Navy. Before me in WWII, my father defended the country spending two years in the Pacific aboard the U.S.S. Hornet (CV-14). We were patriots sworn “to protect and defend”. Today I conclude that you have dishonored our service and the Constitution and principles of our oath. My dad was buried with full military honors so I cannot act for him. But for myself, I return enclosed the symbols of my years of service: the shoulder boards of my rank and my Naval Aviator’s wings.

Until your administration, I believed it was inconceivable that the United States would ever initiate an aggressive and preemptive war against a country that posed no threat to us. Until your administration, I thought it was impossible for our nation to take hundreds of persons into custody without provable charges of any kind, and to “disappear” them into holes like Gitmo, Abu Ghraib and Bagram. Until your administration, in my wildest legal fantasy I could not imagine a U.S. Attorney General seeking to justify torture or a President first stating his intent to veto an anti-torture law, and then adding a “signing statement” that he intends to ignore such law as he sees fit. I do not want these things done in my name.

As a citizen, a patriot, a parent and grandparent, a lawyer and law teacher I am left with such a feeling of loss and helplessness. I think of myself as a good American and I ask myself what can I do when I see the face of evil? Illegal and immoral war, torture and confinement for life without trial have never been part of our Constitutional tradition. But my vote has become meaningless because I live in a safe district drawn by your political party. My congressman is unresponsive to my concerns because his time is filled with lobbyists’ largess. Protests are limited to your “free speech zones”, out of sight of the parade. Even speaking openly is to risk being labeled un-American, pro-terrorist or anti-troops. And I am a disciplined pacifist, so any violent act is out of the question.

Nevertheless, to remain silent is to let you think I approve or support your actions. I do not. So, I am saddened to give up my wings and bars. They were hard won and my parents and wife were as proud as I was when I earned them over forty years ago. But I hate the torture and death you have caused more than I value their symbolism. Giving them up makes me cry for my beloved country.

Joseph W. DuRocher


You can always find a postion to the contrary but most of those who served would disagree with Mr. DuRocher. Nice try though DD

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Pick6
DD, where's the proof to show that's not a fake? google him. He became quite famous for it. I remember watching his interview. I doubt he was covered on any news media you watch, but he exists.

[Pick6]

Originally posted by DDBooger
google him. He became quite famous for it. I remember watching his interview. I doubt he was covered on any news media you watch, but he exists.

Snopes has nothing on him.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by BleedOrange
You can always find a postion to the contrary but most of those who served would disagree with Mr. DuRocher. Nice try though DD Please provide the empirical evidence to support that statement. Even so, no, most don't disagree. In fact, many military service members tried to dissuade Rumsfield and the CIA from taking over prisoners held by the military. IF not for military informants, much of what we know about the tactics used that Durocher speaks about would have never saw the light of day. Nice try.

[Pick6]

I think everyone agrees that the military is mostly right than wrong, I mean left :D

[waterboy]

I was saddened, and surprised, until I read that he's a "lawyer". That explains it to me.......:p

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Pick6
I think everyone agrees that the military is mostly right than wrong, I mean left :D This isn't a question of right or left. That is a created by those of us wanting to dichotomize the military into political camps. Most surveys find soldiers in combat don't give a &#$# about politics. Either way, it is their lives who embolden those who spotlight themselves as tough on Terror.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by waterboy
I was saddened, and surprised, until I read that he's a "lawyer". That explains it to me.......:p
argumentum ad hominem

[Ernest T Bass]

Hell, of all the things GWB did that pissed me off, this guy doesn't really hit on any of'em.

[waterboy]

Originally posted by DDBooger
argumentum ad hominem
Maybe, maybe not. You have to admit, though, that it fits the profile of the vast majority of lawyers.... I have several friends who are lawyers, too, and they'll tell you the same thing.;)

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
Hell, of all the things GWB did that pissed me off, this guy doesn't really hit on any of'em. Likely cause his reasons aren't the same ;) lol

Every President will garner rancor from opposing views. Tactics to gain superiority of argument will continue to utilize a false appeal to authority on matters. Soldiers are trained to do a job, not be politicians. Some dabble in it, some become enthralled in it (McCain and Kerry), but the best part of the military is that none of that matters to them except their buddy to the left and right of em.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by waterboy
Maybe, maybe not. You have to admit, though, that it fits the profile of the vast majority of lawyers.... I have several friends who are lawyers, too, and they'll tell you the same thing.;) Irregardless, he served and was in the military. He hails from a military family. You're are diverting his dominant status to something that suits your argument. If I found out the 1st gentleman mentioned was in the oil business, I wouldn't use that to discard his opinion, but would argue against his opinion.

On a side note, to show my objectivity on the matter of what DuRocher writes to W. I hope he wrote another to President Obama and stated the same as he has continued the polices put in place by his predecessor.

[Old Cardinal]

Sounds like a parasitical Lawyer; building his attack in a subtle way. Wonder where this is to lead to?

To DDB: I watch Bloomberg and Fox News....what do you watch LOL

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
Sounds like a parasitical Lawyer; building his attack in a subtle way. Wonder where this is to lead to? ad hominem, when you have nothing else, go to what makes you safe.


Originally posted by Old Cardinal
To DDB: I watch Bloomberg and Fox News....what do you watch LOL I read. To tell you the truth, the last Conglomerate news org. I watched was FoxNews. And that was in the lead up to 2nd Gulf War. I used to be Rightie. Then I educated myself outside of the media generated hysteria which you adhere to. At least you were honest.

[Pick6]

Originally posted by DDBooger
I read.

But you're still reading someone's opinion or how they see things.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Pick6
But you're still reading someone's opinion or how they see things. That is why when you inform yourself on topics you ensure you have a grasp of both sides of the argument. Even if you feel that the other has no argument. I've read Levin's Liberty and Tyranny. I've read Friedman's work, Thomas Sowell's work. In fact, in knowing what they write and promote, I strengthen my arguments instead of sounding good to merely those who already fall in line with what I believe. Currently, I'm researching the non-reflexive movement on the right and whether grass roots movements are truly agental movements. Really great stuff. In fact, I find it humorous that someone of my ideals gets along so well with those on the right too. Should give people pause to realize that WE are all Americans yet you would think each side hates the other more than the enemies of this nation.

[Ernest T Bass]

Originally posted by DDBooger
I used to be Rightie. Then I educated myself outside of the media generated hysteria which you adhere to. At least you were honest.

Agreed here. I once was a staunch right winger. Education has ended alot of that. I still tend to side with the right more than the left, but only in relation the Constitution. It's pretty cut and dried as to what government can and can't do.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
Agreed here. I once was a staunch right winger. Education has ended alot of that. I still tend to side with the right more than the left, but only in relation the Constitution. It's pretty cut and dried as to what government can and can't do. I think we'd have a great discussion given the chance! :)

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Please provide the empirical evidence to support that statement. Even so, no, most don't disagree. In fact, many military service members tried to dissuade Rumsfield and the CIA from taking over prisoners held by the military. IF not for military informants, much of what we know about the tactics used that Durocher speaks about would have never saw the light of day. Nice try.

Nothing "empirical" but anyone looking objectively at the situation knows he is in the minority. Durocher seems to forget history of the war he fought when making some of his statements. Maybe senility had set in at the time he wrote that.

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by DDBooger
That is why when you inform yourself on topics you ensure you have a grasp of both sides of the argument. Even if you feel that the other has no argument. I've read Levin's Liberty and Tyranny. I've read Friedman's work, Thomas Sowell's work. In fact, in knowing what they write and promote, I strengthen my arguments instead of sounding good to merely those who already fall in line with what I believe. Currently, I'm researching the non-reflexive movement on the right and whether grass roots movements are truly agental movements. Really great stuff. In fact, I find it humorous that someone of my ideals gets along so well with those on the right too. Should give people pause to realize that WE are all Americans yet you would think each side hates the other more than the enemies of this nation.

Interesting perspective yet I find that most of the hate comes from the left towards the right. Also, I would say we are not all Americans due to the influx of illegals which the current administration would like nothing more than to make legal to solidify its base and continue a course towards dismantling our representative republic. Very sad indeed.

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Irregardless, he served and was in the military. He hails from a military family. You're are diverting his dominant status to something that suits your argument. If I found out the 1st gentleman mentioned was in the oil business, I wouldn't use that to discard his opinion, but would argue against his opinion.

On a side note, to show my objectivity on the matter of what DuRocher writes to W. I hope he wrote another to President Obama and stated the same as he has continued the polices put in place by his predecessor.

"Irregardless"?? You can do better than that. Your vocabulary is one of your strong points. You are usually all about the words with little substance. :devil:

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by BleedOrange
Interesting perspective yet I find that most of the hate comes from the left towards the right. And they would say the exact same in reverse.


Originally posted by BleedOrange
Also, I would say we are not all Americans due to the influx of illegals which the current administration would like nothing more than to make legal to solidify its base and continue a course towards dismantling our representative republic. Very sad indeed. Yes, here is where you venture off into crazy land :rolleyes: Bush tried to do the same and was denied by his own party. McCain as well. Please, stop with the silliness.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by BleedOrange
"Irregardless"?? You can do better than that. Your vocabulary is one of your strong points. You are usually all about the words with little substance. :devil: Opinions vary. Divisiveness and rhetoric appears to be your strong suit, despite the lack of a well structured argument. You're a visceral person. I understand that. Doesn't make it right though.

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by DDBooger
And they would say the exact same in reverse.

Yes, here is where you venture off into crazy land :rolleyes: Bush tried to do the same and was denied by his own party. McCain as well. Please, stop with the silliness.

Not crazy land but reality. Bush and McCain had it/have it wrong.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by BleedOrange
Not crazy land but reality. Bush and McCain had it/have it wrong. Okay, well at least your consistent. ;)

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Opinions vary. Divisiveness and rhetoric appears to be your strong suit, despite the lack of a well structured argument. You're a visceral person. I understand that. Doesn't make it right though.

You are correct opinions do vary but I am not certain why. You should just agree with me and leave it at that. Asking for "empircal" evidence how dare you!!!? I do enjoy a some divisive rhetoric but is all in fun as I know we come from opposite ends of the philosophical spectrum which is fine. I will still call you out occasionally and am certain you will do the same. Unfortunately, I do not have as much time as I would like to engage in the banter. I enjoy reading your posts despite their miguided nature. :)

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by BleedOrange
I enjoy reading your posts despite their miguided nature. :) I was just about to say the same about you! ;) haha Have a good one buddy.

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by DDBooger
I was just about to say the same about you! ;) haha Have a good one buddy.

You have a good one also.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by DDBooger

I read. To tell you the truth, the last Conglomerate news org. I watched was FoxNews. And that was in the lead up to 2nd Gulf War. I used to be Rightie. Then I educated myself outside of the media generated hysteria which you adhere to. At least you were honest.

haha

What if your leftist paper trail goes back further than the second Gulf War?;) :p

Sometimes you can "educate" yourself right out of reality?

These are all just rhetorical questions, of course.:D ;)

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SintonFan
haha

What if your leftist paper trail goes back further than the second Gulf War?;) :p Then you can invoke Joseph McCarthy and have an inquisition! :mad:


Originally posted by SintonFan
Sometimes you can "educate" yourself right out of reality? Naw, I'm generally well accepted by polemically different people. I don't think it's my charm, lol. It helps to read literature of either ideology


Originally posted by SintonFan
These are all just rhetorical questions, of course.:D ;)
:twitch:
NO, you want to label me a pinko! :D

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Then you can invoke Joseph McCarthy and have an inquisition! :mad:

Naw, I'm generally well accepted by polemically different people. I don't think it's my charm, lol. It helps to read literature of either ideology


:twitch:
NO, you want to label me a pinko! :D

I won't do that! You are accepted here for goodness sake!

These WERE rhetorical questions...
calm down my thirsty fren.:D

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SintonFan
I won't do that! You are accepted here for goodness sake!

These WERE rhetorical questions...
calm down my thirsty fren.:D Oh, I know. I think most people here respect me, even if they think I'm :crazy: lol

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Oh, I know. I think most people here respect me, even if they think I'm :crazy: lol



Booger,
I find it hilarious that you keep explaining how your opinion is the result of "education"! I would think that someone with your obviously extensive education would understand that your predisposition influences how you perceive information that you read. You and I could read the exact same text and come away with opposite reactions. If you have a Left view of things then naturally you will apply a preconceived notion of TRUTH to things that reenforce that view and a UNTRUTH to things that don't!

Besides, to claim that your opinion stems from "education" insinutates that a dissenting opinion could only come from uneducated people!!!

:stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot:

[waterboy]

Yep. I've always heard that people who speak in a condescending tone are covering up an inherent deficiency elsewhere in their life, too, but that's just what I've heard.....:D :devil:

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by waterboy
Yep. I've always heard that people who speak in a condescending tone are covering up an inherent deficiency elsewhere in their life, too, but that's just what I've heard.....:D :devil: Naw, that's just people who buy oversized trucks, massive guns and corvettes lol

[waterboy]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Naw, that's just people who buy oversized trucks, massive guns and corvettes lol
So, you think I would be overcompensating if I drive a monster truck with a pit bull in the back and an AK47 in the gun rack? Or if I drive my decked out Corvette around to pick up girls?:D

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by waterboy
Or if I drive my decked out Corvette around to pick up girls?:D If you need that to pick up girls, I'd call you calculating! ;)

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Booger,
I find it hilarious that you keep explaining how your opinion is the result of "education"! I would think that someone with your obviously extensive education would understand that your predisposition influences how you perceive information that you read. Yes, but see, that's understood. Should I ask for your background information now? lol


Originally posted by Farmersfan
You and I could read the exact same text and come away with opposite reactions. If you have a Left view of things then naturally you will apply a preconceived notion of TRUTH to things that reenforce that view and a UNTRUTH to things that don't! Absolutely, that's why I stated I read both sides of the argument, to strengthen mine. I couldn't have been clearer.


Originally posted by Farmersfan
Besides, to claim that your opinion stems from "education" insinutates that a dissenting opinion could only come from uneducated people!!! No, you created that dichotomy, not me. Perhaps it hints at some of your own insecurity? lol j/k ;)

[BwdLion73]

Originally posted by DDBooger
If you need that to pick up girls, I'd call you calculating! ;)

:clap: I sold my last Corvette when I discovered that I needed to pick up girls to help me in and out of the damn thing.

[waterboy]

Originally posted by DDBooger
If you need that to pick up girls, I'd call you calculating! ;)
Actually, I never had any problems picking up the ladies in my single days. I was actually driving an '83 Pontiac Grand Prix with torn up seats and no A/C when I met my wife. She had a brand new truck, though!:thumbsup: I guessed she used it to pick me up....:D 13-1/2 years later we are still together AND we still have that truck.

;)Oh, crap! I guess I'm gonna be called a "high maintenance" man now!

:eek:

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by waterboy
Actually, I never had any problems picking up the ladies in my single days. I was actually driving an '83 Pontiac Grand Prix with torn up seats and no A/C when I met my wife. She had a brand new truck, though!:thumbsup: I guessed she used it to pick me up....:D 13-1/2 years later we are still together AND we still have that truck.;) Great story :) I had a suburban for a while. We called it the stabbin cabin. Friends always wanted to borrow it for an excursion to the beach with a pretty young lady. :thinking:

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Great story :) I had a suburban for a while. We called it the stabbin cabin. Friends always wanted to borrow it for an excursion to the beach with a pretty young lady. :thinking:

I see. Always the brides-made and never the bride, huh?:D

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SintonFan
I see. Always the brides-made and never the bride, huh?:D Nothing bridal about it. Always had g/fs,

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Yes, but see, that's understood. Should I ask for your background information now? lol

Absolutely, that's why I stated I read both sides of the argument, to strengthen mine. I couldn't have been clearer.

No, you created that dichotomy, not me. Perhaps it hints at some of your own insecurity? lol j/k ;)




You know, it's really no fun poking at the lion between the bars if the lion just reacts with logic and sensibility! Where's the anger and self righteousness Booger??????

[nobogey72]

I've read all these posts on here with great interest. Something that I always think about in relation to hard core left or right is this: How often do we take a side of an issue based on what "our party" believes as opposed to how we truly feel deep down in the core of our heart. Which goes back to what one of you said about hating the other party more than loving our own country. My opinion is that there are many that FORM their opinions based on what they perceive as their party's stance. AND, that irritates me. To me, it's along the lines of letting someone else make one's decision for them. And, that's all I have to say about that.