Before we start debating Kobe and MJ...

[TheDOCTORdre]

shouldn't Kobe be considered the greatest Laker of all time first? I think he's still 2nd behind Magic

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by TheDOCTORdre
shouldn't Kobe be considered the greatest Laker of all time first? I think he's still 2nd behind Magic Where's Shaq on that list?

[DUKE22]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Where's Shaq on that list? Or Kareem, or Wilt, or Elgin, or Jerry, pretty sad when big game James Worthy cant even make the top five. I would say that Kobe is the best Laker.

[IrishTex]

And let's not forget Magic.

:)

[Old Tiger]

Top 5 Lakers IMO

1. Magic Johnson
2. Kareem
3. Kobe
4. Jerry West
5. Shaq

[Pick6]

Originally posted by IrishTex
And let's not forget Magic.

:)

He didn't, Magic was mentioned in the 1st post.

[IrishTex]

Originally posted by Pick6
He didn't, Magic was mentioned in the 1st post.

Gotcha, thanks

[maestro]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
Top 5 Lakers IMO

1. Magic Johnson
2. Kareem
3. Kobe
4. Jerry West
5. Shaq


pretty good listing....probably in correct order. sorry jerry, you were just too good too soon for this microwave generation. still, i agree with the order.

ok, maybe wilt for shaq, but shaq daddy has the rings !!

[zebrablue2]

MJ was the GREATEST!!!

[Spread It Out]

Interesting question, I'll take Kobe first and then Magic though.

[JasonTX]

I've always looked at Kobe as being just an above average player. The majority of what makes a player a super star depends on how high of a pedestal the media puts him on. Compare Tiger Woods with Kobe. Tiger was on a high pedestal, but then after what he did, the media knocked him off of it and now we hardly hear much about him. The difference with Kobe is they never knocked him down, but instead kept raising him higher and higher, but when you look at his game he is still just above average. Let's see if he can go to a different team and win a ring. His coach has so he proved it was just the Bulls players who could win. You put any average player in a system with Jackson and they will do quite well. I agree with Magic and Kareem being 1 and 2. I don't think I would even put Kobe or Shaq in the top 5. Kobe would be above Shaq.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Spread It Out
Interesting question, I'll take Kobe first and then Magic though.



Out of the the 6 mentioned (West, Kareem, Shag, Chamberlin, Magic and Bryant) Kobe is the only one that does not lead the team in any stat in their history. In fact the only category Kobe is even in the top 5 is PPG and he is #3 behind Wilt and West and less than 1 point per game ahead of 2 other Lakers. No matter how you slice it, Kobe is #4 all time Lakers at best.......................
If you consider the intangibles he falls way down the list! My opinion:


Magic
Wilt (Kareem and Wilt could be reversed)
Kareem
West
Kobe
Shaq
(Both Kobe and Shaq are followed very, very closely by a host of others)

[DUKE22]

Originally posted by TheDOCTORdre
shouldn't Kobe be considered the greatest Laker of all time first? I think he's still 2nd behind Magic This is a very interesting discussion. Think about this, if you named the best ten players in NBA history I think the Celtics would have two. Of course MJ and then you could almost fill out the rest of the list with Lakers. I am not a Laker fan but wow they have had some amazing talent.

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by maestro
pretty good listing....probably in correct order. sorry jerry, you were just too good too soon for this microwave generation. still, i agree with the order.

ok, maybe wilt for shaq, but shaq daddy has the rings !! You gotta have a lot of respect for a guy who is the NBA logo. ;)

[Pick6]

Originally posted by JasonTX
Let's see if he can go to a different team and win a ring.

MJ went to another team and didn't win a ring. Does that diminish his career?

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by Pick6
MJ went to another team and didn't win a ring. Does that diminish his career? Michael played with Chicago till 01-03 seasons. When he went to Washington he was on the final leg of his career.


No one single player can win a championship themself and that has been proven this past 4-5 years with LeBron.

Jordan had some unbelievable teams in Chicago and Kobe has had some unbelievable teams in LA.

[Pick6]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
Michael played with Chicago till 01-03 seasons. When he went to Washington he was on the final leg of his career.


No one single player can win a championship themself and that has been proven this past 4-5 years with LeBron.

Jordan had some unbelievable teams in Chicago and Kobe has had some unbelievable teams in LA.

I agree with you. JasonTx thinks that Kobe has to win a title with another team to prove his worth. I want him to explain why Kobe has to but MJ didn't.

[JasonTX]

Originally posted by Pick6
MJ went to another team and didn't win a ring. Does that diminish his career?

He had a great career while playing with Phil Jackson. All his rings were won with Jackson as the coach. Kobe didn't win any rings prior to Jackson becoming coach. My claim is that both MJ and Kobe played very well under the system that Jackson brings to the game. Jackson can and will win rings without Kobe just as he did without MJ, and some other player will shine in the spotlight and become "the best" player. If Jackson leaves the Lakers, Kobe will never win another ring.

[Pick6]

Originally posted by JasonTX
He had a great career while playing with Phil Jackson. All his rings were won with Jackson as the coach. Kobe didn't win any rings prior to Jackson becoming coach. My claim is that both MJ and Kobe played very well under the system that Jackson brings to the game. Jackson can and will win rings without Kobe just as he did without MJ, and some other player will shine in the spotlight and become "the best" player. If Jackson leaves the Lakers, Kobe will never win another ring.

Circles, so I guess Robert Horry is the best player ever. He won titles with and without Jackson and also has 7 rings.

[big daddy russ]

Tex Winter himself once commented that Kobe was already more skilled and more of a complete player than Michael and Kobe hadn't even turned 24 at that point in time. On the flip side, Michael had more of an inside game and, during that last run, provided more of a low post game than the Bulls' inside players--Rodman and Wennington.

It's all relative. We mention Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Elgin Baylor, and Jerry West in the "greatest Laker" conversation, but everyone seems to forget that those players all played with each other. There's no single player in NBA history that could ever win a title on his own. The Bulls before Pipp were about the same as the Lakers after Shaq, or the Cavs of today. The team that surrounded Jordan won 55 games and stretched Eastern Conference favorites New York to the limit the year after the first Jordan retirement. The Cavs are a one-man show without a true #2. Same with Kobe's Lakers.

And one other guy that everyone seems to forget on the list of greatest Lakers is George Mikan.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Tex Winter himself once commented that Kobe was already more skilled and more of a complete player than Michael and Kobe hadn't even turned 24 at that point in time. On the flip side, Michael had more of an inside game and, during that last run, provided more of a low post game than the Bulls' inside players--Rodman Huge difference between most skilled and best.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by JasonTX
Tiger was on a high pedestal, but then after what he did, the media knocked him off of it and now we hardly hear much about him. I would really like to know where you have been the past 6 months?

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Tex Winter himself once commented that Kobe was already more skilled and more of a complete player than Michael and Kobe hadn't even turned 24 at that point in time. On the flip side, Michael had more of an inside game and, during that last run, provided more of a low post game than the Bulls' inside players--Rodman and Wennington.

It's all relative. We mention Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Elgin Baylor, and Jerry West in the "greatest Laker" conversation, but everyone seems to forget that those players all played with each other. There's no single player in NBA history that could ever win a title on his own. The Bulls before Pipp were about the same as the Lakers after Shaq, or the Cavs of today. The team that surrounded Jordan won 55 games and stretched Eastern Conference favorites New York to the limit the year after the first Jordan retirement. The Cavs are a one-man show without a true #2. Same with Kobe's Lakers.

And one other guy that everyone seems to forget on the list of greatest Lakers is George Mikan.



Wouldn't it be HARDER to put up those kinds of numbers if you aren't the star of the team? How would Kobe's numbers look if he played with Wade, Labron and Dirk? Another issue to consider is that Kobe plays in a age when "Stars" are allowed to travel and rarely get called for charging. When Kareem and Magic played you got your head handed to you if you came into the lane.

[Spread It Out]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
The Cavs are a one-man show without a true #2. Same with Kobe's Lakers.


I think Pau Gasol is a great #2.

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by Spread It Out
I think Pau Gasol is a great #2. Artest and Gasol are better than any other player on Cleveland besides LeBron.


Pau is one of the best international players also.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
Artest and Gasol are better than any other player on Cleveland besides LeBron.


Pau is one of the best international players also.



In my opinion, Gasol, Artest, Odam, Bynam and Fisher are all better than the #2 player on the Cavs.

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
In my opinion, Gasol, Artest, Odam, Bynam and Fisher are all better than the #2 player on the Cavs. I wouldn't say Fisher is better but he's more technically sound and makes very few mistakes.

[JasonTX]

Originally posted by Pick6
Circles, so I guess Robert Horry is the best player ever. He won titles with and without Jackson and also has 7 rings.

I know if I had a game on the line with only one shot left Horry would get the ball without any question before I ever let Kobe take the shot. Making the last shot is what Horry was known for. He did that in Houston as well as LA. I don't have the stats, but I would be safe to say that probably all of those runs to the championship games, you would find a series in the playoffs that hinged on one of Horry's game winning shots. Derek Fisher is right in there when it comes to that same subject.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
I wouldn't say Fisher is better but he's more technically sound and makes very few mistakes.




You are probably right!

The #2 player for Cleveland is debatable but I would say A. Jamison who averaged 15.3 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.3 Apg with a EFF of +16.27.

Fisher for the Lakers averaged 11.1 ppg, 2.30 rpg, 3.1 Apg with a EFF of 11.19. Not as good as Jamison but Fisher would be #5 or #6 on the depth chart for the Lakers.

Makes you realize just how much Labron carried the team doesn't it!

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by JasonTX
I know if I had a game on the line with only one shot left Horry would get the ball without any question before I ever let Kobe take the shot. Making the last shot is what Horry was known for. He did that in Houston as well as LA. I don't have the stats, but I would be safe to say that probably all of those runs to the championship games, you would find a series in the playoffs that hinged on one of Horry's game winning shots. Derek Fisher is right in there when it comes to that same subject. Horry hit open shots Kobe creates the shot and makes the play for himself or a teammate Horry never did that.


Originally posted by Farmersfan
You are probably right!

The #2 player for Cleveland is debatable but I would say A. Jamison who averaged 15.3 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.3 Apg with a EFF of +16.27.

Fisher for the Lakers averaged 11.1 ppg, 2.30 rpg, 3.1 Apg with a EFF of 11.19. Not as good as Jamison but Fisher would be #5 or #6 on the depth chart for the Lakers.

Makes you realize just how much Labron carried the team doesn't it! Jamison was awful after Cleveland got him in the trade it was not a fit at all.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Huge difference between most skilled and best.
This is true.


Originally posted by Farmersfan
Wouldn't it be HARDER to put up those kinds of numbers if you aren't the star of the team? How would Kobe's numbers look if he played with Wade, Labron and Dirk? Another issue to consider is that Kobe plays in a age when "Stars" are allowed to travel and rarely get called for charging. When Kareem and Magic played you got your head handed to you if you came into the lane.
Yes (http://www.usabasketball.com/seniormen/2008/stats/08_moly_stats_leaders.pdf) it would.

They also played less defense back then (generally speaking--not counting Detroit, Milwaukee, Boston, etc.), played a faster pace of game, and weren't allowed to run a zone defense. And despite all that, Kobe reeled off that incredible run a few years back when LA needed him most. An 81-point game, didn't score under 40 for a couple weeks, just an incredible feat.


Originally posted by Spread It Out
I think Pau Gasol is a great #2.
Sorry... I meant to say during the period between Shaq and Gasol when the West was as its toughest and Bryant was single-handedly giving the Suns all they could handle every year in the first round.

[big daddy russ]

Charley Rosen's opinion of Kobe, found in the "Ray Allen vs. Kobe Bryant" column:

link (http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/lakers-celtics-nba-finals-matchups-53010)

I'm not saying that you have to believe that he's better than Jordan, just saying that you have to believe that he's easily one of the top two players of today and probably the best player of the past decade (even though I'm a huge Duncan fan and don't like Kobe).