kobe

[eagleqb_14]

if he wins more titles than michael jordan will he better than him?

[BEAST]

Not in my opinion. Keep in mind, no MJ led team ever lost in the finals. He won 3 straight two times. The only reason he did not win 8 straight, he went and played standaround for a couple of years.




BEAST

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BEAST
Not in my opinion. Keep in mind, no MJ led team ever lost in the finals. He won 3 straight two times. The only reason he did not win 8 straight, he went and played standaround for a couple of years.




BEAST

Can also argue that Jordan never faced a true power team in the finals. He faced some good teams that were not quite great.

Jordan IMO is alot like Mike Tyson in boxing...during the apex of both of their careers they never had that true rival that could push them. Jordan had it in his younger days with the Celtics and Pistons, but thru the 90's the Bulls never had that ONE team either in the east or the west that was truly a great team to challenge them.

That era of the NBA was ugly beat up on each other and hold the ball till there is 8 seconds on shot clock then a guard drives to the hoop and either gets fouled, or passes out for a 3pointer or gets a lay up. The game was truly iso plays and nothing else(part of that because of Jordan).

[Spread It Out]

Please tell me you're kidding. Karl Malone and John Stockton with the Jazz weren't great teams?

[DUKE22]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Can also argue that Jordan never faced a true power team in the finals. He faced some good teams that were not quite great.

Jordan IMO is alot like Mike Tyson in boxing...during the apex of both of their careers they never had that true rival that could push them. Jordan had it in his younger days with the Celtics and Pistons, but thru the 90's the Bulls never had that ONE team either in the east or the west that was truly a great team to challenge them.

That era of the NBA was ugly beat up on each other and hold the ball till there is 8 seconds on shot clock then a guard drives to the hoop and either gets fouled, or passes out for a 3pointer or gets a lay up. The game was truly iso plays and nothing else(part of that because of Jordan). I agree. I also think Kobe is very close if not equal with MJ. They play very similar and look similar on the floor. I think the NBA in the 90's was watered down. If you put the Jordan teams in the 80's I think they win 2 titles tops. That being said I will still give MJ a slight nod. I think he is the greatest ever, with Kobe close behind and maybe taking over at some point. If Lebron would develop a mid range game like Kobe and MJ's I think he might end up being the man.

[Txbroadcaster]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spread It Out
Please tell me you're kidding. Karl Malone and John Stockton with the Jazz weren't great teams? [/QUOTE

No they werent GREAT teams..they were very good teams of that era but dont hold up as one of the all time greats

Look at the 80's...The Lakers, The Celtics, The Pistons and The Sixers all had GREAT teams..then you had the next level..the Rockets, the Bucks, the Cavs and the 3 yr run of the Mavericks

In the 90's the Bulls were GREAT...no other team from that era of the Bulls run was truly GREAT..some had 1 or 2 good-great players, but did not have the depth that a great team has

[forum_guy]

It would be a toss up IMO. Older generation would say MJ, newer would say Kobe

[coach]

jordan is better by a landslide....kobe wasn't even the best player on his team for 3 of the 4 titles....jordan was a better defensive player...score...he was and will always be better than kobehell ill take magic over kobe right now

[coach]

not to mention...steve nash has more mvps than kobe.....here are some stats..



kobe:

4× NBA Champion (2000, 2001, 2002, 2009)
NBA Finals MVP (2009)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
2× NBA scoring champion (2006–2007)
8× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2010)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000–2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
8× All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003–2004, 2006–2010)
2× All-Defensive Second Team (2001–2002)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009)
NBA Slam Dunk Contest winner (1997)
Naismith Prep Player of the Year (1996)







and Jordan:

6× NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
5× NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
14× NBA All-Star (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002–2003)
6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
10× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
All-NBA Second Team Selection (1985)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1988–1993, 1996–1998)
1985 NBA Rookie of the Year
1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
2× NBA Slam Dunk Contest winner (1987, 1988)
2× Gold Medal Winner in the Olympics (1984, 1992)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
NCAA Men's Basketball Champion (1982)
2× Consensus NCAA All-American First Team (1983, 1984)
1982 ACC Freshman of the Year
ACC Men's Basketball Player of the Year (1984)
USBWA College Player of the Year (1984)
Naismith College Player of the Year (1984)
John R. Wooden Award (1984)
Adolph Rupp Trophy (1984)
1991 Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year
2000 ESPY Athlete of the Century
1990s ESPY Male Athlete Decade Award
1990s ESPY Pro Basketballer Decade Award

[forum_guy]

He will finish closer to MJ than anyone. Idk why Lebron gets compared to MJ. Lebron plays nothing like MJ

[TheDOCTORdre]

throwing college awards are useless since Kobe didnt play college ball but I still think Jordan is head and shoulders better

[coach]

Originally posted by TheDOCTORdre
throwing college awards are useless since Kobe didnt play college ball but I still think Jordan is head and shoulders better

i just copied them from wiki...i should have taken the college awards out i didnt think about it...also if jordan doesnt retire twice he could easily have 8 championships

[coach]

Originally posted by forum_guy
He will finish closer to MJ than anyone. Idk why Lebron gets compared to MJ. Lebron plays nothing like MJ

they dont compare styles they compare if he will be as good

[greenhornet]

MJ never had a supporting cast like Kobe's present or past(Shaq), so the titles thing is subjective. I would take MJ over Kobe by a good margin as individual players.

[BEAST]

Originally posted by coach
i just copied them from wiki...i should have taken the college awards out i didnt think about it...also if jordan doesnt retire twice he could easily have 8 championships

That would be 8 titles in a row. I believe that had that happened, they probably wouldve stayed together to try to make it 10 straight.

Another thing that Jordan did so well that I dont see Kobe doing is making the other players on the team raise up and be go to guys when they normally wouldnt be. Anybody remember Kukoc?




BEAST

[DUKE22]

Originally posted by greenhornet
MJ never had a supporting cast like Kobe's present or past(Shaq), so the titles thing is subjective. I would take MJ over Kobe by a good margin as individual players. Shaq I will give you, MJ never had that. Kobe's supporting cast now is not even close to what MJ had. He had Scottie Pippen, who was voted one the 50 greatest players ever. Pippen also took a huge load off of MJ on defense. Once again I think they are very very close with MJ getting a slight nod.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spread It Out
Please tell me you're kidding. Karl Malone and John Stockton with the Jazz weren't great teams? [/QUOTE

No they werent GREAT teams..they were very good teams of that era but dont hold up as one of the all time greats

Look at the 80's...The Lakers, The Celtics, The Pistons and The Sixers all had GREAT teams..then you had the next level..the Rockets, the Bucks, the Cavs and the 3 yr run of the Mavericks

In the 90's the Bulls were GREAT...no other team from that era of the Bulls run was truly GREAT..some had 1 or 2 good-great players, but did not have the depth that a great team has



You don't think the dominance of the Bulls had something to do with some of the other teams not being considered great? the Cowboys of the 70's isn't looked at by most as a dominating team but the ALL UNIVERSE Steelers team had to beat the Cowboys to get their titles. The point is that there were just as many good teams in the NBA during Jordans run as there ever was or is now. The difference is that ONE team dominated the championships. (Just like the Steelers did in the 70's).

[PPSTATEBOUND]

MJ

[greenhornet]

Originally posted by DUKE22
Shaq I will give you, MJ never had that. Kobe's supporting cast now is not even close to what MJ had. He had Scottie Pippen, who was voted one the 50 greatest players ever. Pippen also took a huge load off of MJ on defense. Once again I think they are very very close with MJ getting a slight nod.

You bring up one player (Pippen) and while he did seem to be a VERY good player while playing with Jordan he was mediocre in his seasons without Jordan, you do the math. Regardless you must not watch much NBA currently, Odom, Gasol, Artest are all-star caliber players still in their prime. In addition they have some very good role players.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
You don't think the dominance of the Bulls had something to do with some of the other teams not being considered great? the Cowboys of the 70's isn't looked at by most as a dominating team but the ALL UNIVERSE Steelers team had to beat the Cowboys to get their titles. The point is that there were just as many good teams in the NBA during Jordans run as there ever was or is now. The difference is that ONE team dominated the championships. (Just like the Steelers did in the 70's).

But the Cowboys PUSHED the Steelers and won 2 titles in the 70's..

Yes there were GOOD teams in the Jordan era, no GREAT teams

[DUKE22]

Originally posted by greenhornet
You bring up one player (Pippen) and while he did seem to be a VERY good player while playing with Jordan he was mediocre in his seasons without Jordan, you do the math. Regardless you must not watch much NBA currently, Odom, Gasol, Artest are all-star caliber players still in their prime. In addition they have some very good role players. LOL Scottie Pippen compared to Odom, Gasol, and Artest. Put either one of those three on a team when they are the man and lets see how they do. Gasol didnt do that well in Memphis nor did Artest in the handful of teams he was on. I watch enough NBA to know that neither of them are as good as Scottie Pippen.

[DUKE22]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
You don't think the dominance of the Bulls had something to do with some of the other teams not being considered great? the Cowboys of the 70's isn't looked at by most as a dominating team but the ALL UNIVERSE Steelers team had to beat the Cowboys to get their titles. The point is that there were just as many good teams in the NBA during Jordans run as there ever was or is now. The difference is that ONE team dominated the championships. (Just like the Steelers did in the 70's). 1990's teams were not as good as 80's teams period.

[greenhornet]

Originally posted by DUKE22
LOL Scottie Pippen compared to Odom, Gasol, and Artest. Put either one of those three on a team when they are the man and lets see how they do. Gasol didnt do that well in Memphis nor did Artest in the handful of teams he was on. I watch enough NBA to know that neither of them are as good as Scottie Pippen.

Pippen didn't even do well as a role player on other teams. Once again there are 3 all-star caliber players on the Lakers not named Kobe....booom!

[DUKE22]

Originally posted by greenhornet
Pippen didn't even do well as a role player on other teams. Once again there are 3 all-star caliber players on the Lakers not named Kobe....booom! LOL how cute, I will never forget the day Scottie Pippen was compared to Lamar Odom.

[greenhornet]

I NEVER compared them one to one genius but I will take those 3 over Pippen and the gang any day of the week and twice on Sunday!

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by DUKE22
1990's teams were not as good as 80's teams period.



A fairly ignorant statement Duke22!

[PPSTATEBOUND]

Originally posted by DUKE22
1990's teams were not as good as 80's teams period.

The "Dreams" teams would have layed waste to more then few of those 80 juggernauts you taut IMO

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
But the Cowboys PUSHED the Steelers and won 2 titles in the 70's..

Yes there were GOOD teams in the Jordan era, no GREAT teams




And what GREAT teams were there in the 80's? Basically it was the Lakers or the Celtics! Lakers beat the Celtics or Celtics beat the Lakers in the finals! Throw in a couple of good Pistons teams and that's pretty much it. I repeat: The 90's Bulls prevented several teams from being considered as great as the Celtics, Pistons and Lakers of the 80's.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
And what GREAT teams were there in the 80's? Basically it was the Lakers or the Celtics! Lakers beat the Celtics or Celtics beat the Lakers in the finals! Throw in a couple of good Pistons teams and that's pretty much it. I repeat: The 90's Bulls prevented several teams from being considered as great as the Celtics, Pistons and Lakers of the 80's.


Well lets see great teams from the 80's

Lakers
Celtics
Sixers
Pistons

The Rockets made two NBA finals..you then had teams like the Bucks the Trailblazers and even for a small run the MAvericks who were on the cusp of possibly being great.

Again it is not the Bulls fault but they dont have a defining series in their whole run of titles. They have a bunch of Jordan moments, but none of their finals went a game seven..they only played one team more than once in the final. There was not a team in the east that truly challenged them.

[DUKE22]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
A fairly ignorant statement Duke22! Ok take the 1983 76ers. They would wipe the floor with any bulls team. That was one of if not the best team I have ever seen. Look at what they did in the playoffs and that will show you how good they were. Its just my opinion I think the 90's was watered down. I have said once and I will say it again, I believe MJ is the best player, but his teams would win no mmore than two titles in the 80's. Its my opinion and I might be wrong. I just dont see how they would go through the Celtics or Pistons or 76ers and then beat the Lakers or Rockets in the finals six times.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Can also argue that Jordan never faced a true power team in the finals. He faced some good teams that were not quite great.
Yup. He missed out on the Rockets when Dream was just destroying everyone. That would've been a fun series.


Originally posted by BEAST
Another thing that Jordan did so well that I dont see Kobe doing is making the other players on the team raise up and be go to guys when they normally wouldnt be. Anybody remember Kukoc?
You mean the guy who scored 20 a game with the Hawks?


Originally posted by greenhornet
You bring up one player (Pippen) and while he did seem to be a VERY good player while playing with Jordan he was mediocre in his seasons without Jordan, you do the math.
Like scoring 19 and pulling down 12 rebounds a game as a SF with Houston? Didn't watch much Pippen, did you?

[big daddy russ]

I would've loved to see Jordan's Bulls square off against Russell's Celtics. Russell's the only guy I know of who would hit Jordan in the mouth hard enough to make Jordan hesitate a little. Isaiah didn't back down, but never could get under MJ's skin.

I'd have loved to see Jordan drive Russell's lane. Two pit bulls going at it.

[eagles_victory]

A huge thing that bothers me going on in this thread people attempting to compare eras and prove that they are right you can't compare areas and come up with anything definite it is just impossible to do. It is all a matter of opinion.

I have been wondering this the past few days does anyone think the Jordan effect on the game has been bad for the NBA? Now Im not saying that Jordan was bad for the league because that is stupid he was obviously great but I mean the way he changed the game did that make the NBA a less desirable product?

[greenhornet]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Yup. He missed out on the Rockets when Dream was just destroying everyone. That would've been a fun series.


You mean the guy who scored 20 a game with the Hawks?


Like scoring 19 and pulling down 12 rebounds a game as a SF with Houston? Didn't watch much Pippen, did you?

His one season in Houston he averaged 14 points and 6 rebounds and his numbers went down from there in following seasons but hey nice try with A FLAT OUT LIE!

[greenhornet]

Hey Dukey did you happen to catch Kobe's supporting cast in action last night? Pretty darn impressive!

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by greenhornet
His one season in Houston he averaged 14 points and 6 rebounds and his numbers went down from there in following seasons but hey nice try with A FLAT OUT LIE!
Actually, you're right. I pulled it off the NBA website and they only had numbers for four games.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/scottie_pippen/career_stats.html

But I'd still take Pipp on my team any day.

[greenhornet]

You would honestly take Pippen for Gasol, Odom, and Artest? Because that was the original conversation, not comparing any of those guys one to one. Gasol's numbers actually stack up very well against Pippen's but I just have never been a big fan of Gasol's game.

[DUKE22]

Originally posted by greenhornet
You would honestly take Pippen for Gasol, Odom, and Artest? Because that was the original conversation, not comparing any of those guys one to one. Gasol's numbers actually stack up very well against Pippen's but I just have never been a big fan of Gasol's game. No I would take the three over Pippen. However you give me Horace Grant for the first the titles and the Dennis Rodman for the second three and this conversation is over.

[DUKE22]

Originally posted by greenhornet
Hey Dukey did you happen to catch Kobe's supporting cast in action last night? Pretty darn impressive! They were impressive.

[greenhornet]

Jordan himself has used the word terrible to describe Grant, you wanna talk about a coattail rider. Rodman was very good at what he did.

Any way you want to slice this Kobe has been the benefactor of some extremely talented teams, I am not going to say Jordan only had scrubs for his runs but Kobe's support staff has been better period! Just look at it like this-if you put a same age Jordan on the current day Lakers in place of Kobe ask yourself honestly what that team would be capable of. I will say that I truly believe they would even be better with LeBron in place of Kobe, now that guy has had to carry around some REAL dead weight.

[LE Dad]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I would've loved to see Jordan's Bulls square off against Russell's Celtics. Russell's the only guy I know of who would hit Jordan in the mouth hard enough to make Jordan hesitate a little. Isaiah didn't back down, but never could get under MJ's skin.

I'd have loved to see Jordan drive Russell's lane. Two pit bulls going at it. That would be fun to watch, but it depends on what era of rules you use. Back in Russells day a foul was a foul, none of the little touches that Jordan was accustomed to getting. Jordan was great, but you couldn't even try to pressure him without a whistle and if he drove the lane just move or get the call against you.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I would've loved to see Jordan's Bulls square off against Russell's Celtics. Russell's the only guy I know of who would hit Jordan in the mouth hard enough to make Jordan hesitate a little. Isaiah didn't back down, but never could get under MJ's skin.

I'd have loved to see Jordan drive Russell's lane. Two pit bulls going at it.

I think the Pistons and Thomas DID get under his skin..a TON in fact..but their core group was starting to get old and fragile and fell off

[LE Dad]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
A huge thing that bothers me going on in this thread people attempting to compare eras and prove that they are right you can't compare areas and come up with anything definite it is just impossible to do. It is all a matter of opinion.

I have been wondering this the past few days does anyone think the Jordan effect on the game has been bad for the NBA? Now Im not saying that Jordan was bad for the league because that is stupid he was obviously great but I mean the way he changed the game did that make the NBA a less desirable product? Yes, I think Jordan did change the game in a negative way. Not his fault, just the part became greater than the whole.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by greenhornet
Jordan himself has used the word terrible to describe Grant, you wanna talk about a coattail rider. Rodman was very good at what he did.

Any way you want to slice this Kobe has been the benefactor of some extremely talented teams, I am not going to say Jordan only had scrubs for his runs but Kobe's support staff has been better period! Just look at it like this-if you put a same age Jordan on the current day Lakers in place of Kobe ask yourself honestly what that team would be capable of. I will say that I truly believe they would even be better with LeBron in place of Kobe, now that guy has had to carry around some REAL dead weight.

I dont care what Jordan said if he said that..Grant basically averaged close to a double double during his Bulls years and was a 4 time 2nd team defensive selection.

[greenhornet]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I dont care what Jordan said if he said that..Grant basically averaged close to a double double during his Bulls years and was a 4 time 2nd team defensive selection.

Grant hit double digits for rebounds twice in his long career and was around 14 ppg during Bulls tenure, never was too impressed by him myself.

Great teams=lots of individual awards, some earned some not just the way it goes from high school to the pros.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by greenhornet
Grant hit double digits for rebounds twice in his long career and was around 14 ppg during Bulls tenure, never was too impressed by him myself.

Great teams=lots of individual awards, some earned some not just the way it goes from high school to the pros.


Easy statement to make..oh he only got recognized because he was on a great team...of course the EXACT same thing could be said about the Lakers now.

I look at it like this..Where would the Lakers be if Kobe was gone a year? What would their record be?

When Jordan left a year, Pippen and Grant led the Bulls to 55 wins..I dont know if this LAker team could do the same thing

[greenhornet]

I feel like the Lakers would be at least a top 6 seed in the West without Kobe right now, possibly higher especially if you consider the cap space it would free up to bring in a FA in his place.

If you put that team in the current eastern conf they are a top 4 seed and COULD win more than 55.

[LE Dad]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I dont care what Jordan said if he said that..Grant basically averaged close to a double double during his Bulls years and was a 4 time 2nd team defensive selection. I think Grant was a good player, but not very pleasant off the court. I could see Jordan bashing him out of spite, but he was a beast and a major contributor during his stay with the Bulls.

[LE Dad]

If Bynum is healty the Lakers can make it without Kobe. They would look more like the Spurs but they could win and compete in the playoffs.

[greenhornet]

Originally posted by LE Dad
I think Grant was a good player, but not very pleasant off the court. I could see Jordan bashing him out of spite, but he was a beast and a major contributor during his stay with the Bulls.

I think "beast" would definitely be a reach if I ever heard one...lol

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by greenhornet
Jordan himself has used the word terrible to describe Grant, you wanna talk about a coattail rider. Rodman was very good at what he did.

Any way you want to slice this Kobe has been the benefactor of some extremely talented teams, I am not going to say Jordan only had scrubs for his runs but Kobe's support staff has been better period! Just look at it like this-if you put a same age Jordan on the current day Lakers in place of Kobe ask yourself honestly what that team would be capable of. I will say that I truly believe they would even be better with LeBron in place of Kobe, now that guy has had to carry around some REAL dead weight.
The Bulls won 55 games the year Jordan left. Couldn't have been all bad.


Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I think the Pistons and Thomas DID get under his skin..a TON in fact..but their core group was starting to get old and fragile and fell off
I'd agree when he was younger, but after he zoned in Isaiah had a harder time with it. Still, the only guys Jordan played who had that Bill Russell mentality were Thomas and Bird. John Starks had a little of it, but MJ was under his skin.

Bird and Isaiah were the only two who didn't duck and run after they got hit back.

[LE Dad]

Originally posted by greenhornet
I think "beast" would definitely be a reach if I ever heard one...lol Not at all... He did what he was asked to do. Protect the lane on D and distribute the ball on O. If Horace didn't get the rebound it was because Rodman already had it. If there was an open shot he took it. :cool: