A revisit: Parents or teachers to blame for low test scores?

[kaorder1999]

This picture is WELL worth another look. Makes me laugh everytime I see it. Kids at Trimble Tech High School were not allowed to walk across the stage at Graduation because they hadn't passed all TAKS tests needed in order to graduate. Instead of letting them walk across the state and THEN retaking the test in order to try to pass, the District forced the young men and women to watch graduation. Parents picketed in front of the school and District Administration building and here is one of the parents holding up a sign she made.

i KNOW it is a teachers responsibility to get these young men and women ready for the TAKS test and get them college and career ready but it sure makes it hard when the parents struggle with the English language. LET ARE KIDS WALK!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BlU5V5BaMjY/RliXlZlLmZI/AAAAAAAABVY/4lWFkJYr4v8/s400/TAKSProtestSignLetAreKidsWalk.jpg

[kaorder1999]

wait a minute....that is a KID isnt it? Doesnt look like a parent. haha...that makes it even funnier.....this poor kid prolly wants to graduate and doesnt think its fair that they arent able to walk with their friends then they make that sign! wow

[STANG RED]

Should have made them go out and dig ditches in cold wet weather for minimum wage for a couple weeks. Nothing like some cold hard reality to instill some incentive in the little lazy mongrels.

Give them their reward only after they have earned it. Thats the way it works in the work force they are about to enter.

[LE Dad]

If you are a senior in HS, it is your own dang fault. How do you say "ya can't make em drink"...
These people were considered young adults and were held accountable for their lack of preparation.

[kaorder1999]

Im sorry....BUT...if you cant spell OUR then I have NO sympathy for yoU!

[waterboy]

Hahaha......that's a funny sign........sad, but funny! I'm not a proponent of the TAKS tests, or the upcoming STAAR tests, but if the kids have to take them the parents have to be active in the kids' learning process. One of the biggest problems with kids nowadays are parents that don't, and won't allow the school to, discipline their kids. Yet, the majority of people usually think it's the teacher's fault for their child not being able to pass these tests. Kids would be better suited, and more apt, to learn what they need to learn if they knew that they would get a whooping if they slacked.....or didn't try......;)

[BEAST]

This is exactly whats wrong with America in my opinion. Entitlements. People wanting, demanding equal treatment/reward, without equal work. I hope the school board didnt change their mind.




BEAST

[Bullaholic]

A lot of parents are not going to step up to insure that their kids graduate and leave this responsibility to the teachers.

I say that any student not passing the test by their 18th year of age, and not gainfully employed, should be automatically drafted into the Armed Forces and allowed to complete their education there.

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
A lot of parents are not going to step up to insure that their kids graduate and leave this responsibility to the teachers.

I say that any student not passing the test by their 18th year of age, and not gainfully employed, should be automatically drafted into the Armed Forces and allowed to complete their education there.
:clap: At least they would learn DISCIPLINE there, too, which is exactly what the vast majority of these kids need anyway!:clap:

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by STANG RED
Should have made them go out and dig ditches in cold wet weather for minimum wage for a couple weeks. Nothing like some cold hard reality to instill some incentive in the little lazy mongrels.

Give them their reward only after they have earned it. Thats the way it works in the work force they are about to enter.

If it was just laziness, yeah I think that would work. Sometimes, the kid just really isn't that smart. In those cases we should just leave them behind so they don't dumb down everyone else.

[kaorder1999]

Ever seen the movie Idiocracy? It is freaking hilarious! This situation reminds me of the movie!

[waterboy]

Originally posted by SWMustang
If it was just laziness, yeah I think that would work. Sometimes, the kid just really isn't that smart. In those cases we should just leave them behind so they don't dumb down everyone else.
There's definitely a few of those, too, but the vast majority of them just don't have the "want to" to learn, and that falls back to a lack of discipline more times than not..... The problem is schools have to be politically correct which limits their ability to separate the students according their learning abilities. Parents of students with mental disabilities, or deficiencies, don't want their child separated from the rest of the students, which in turn drags the rest of the students down with them. Teachers spend too much of their time trying to keep those students up to speed, which slows the learning process for "normal" students.

[Red&White_9x5]

Give Obama time and I am sure he will develop a plan to "hand out" diplomas to those who refuse to do the work for them. Just like federal aid and health care

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by Red&White_9x5
Give Obama time and I am sure he will develop a plan to "hand out" diplomas to those who refuse to do the work for them. Just like federal aid and health care

http://pinkdome.com/archives/Douchebag.jpg

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Red&White_9x5
Give Obama time and I am sure he will develop a plan to "hand out" diplomas to those who refuse to do the work for them. Just like federal aid and health care

http://pointlessbanter.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/liar.jpg

[bobcat4life]

LET ARE KIDS WALK!!

LET ARE KIDS WALK!!

LET ARE KIDS WALK!!

Im sorry but if you spell that way, can you expect you or your kids to graduate?

[Green Bling]

IT TAKES A VILLAGE TO RAISE A CHILD!! Same principle applies to educating one. Children need the complete support of their parents, teachers and community to be successful. Take one component away and the risk of failure increases exponentially. It's a slippery slope at best when any of these groups start pointing fingers at another.

[BILLYFRED0000]

This is a failure of the school system in general. A taks test is only an indication of a students ability at a given subject not a factual endall proof. The other issue is the teachers one size fits all approach to their classrooms. And that is a failure of the structure of how to teach. In early years k-3 boys and girls should be seperated. Boys should be taught by men and girls by women. And that is only one of many changes that should be made as young boys respond differently to men than women as anybody with children will understand. There are other seminal changes as well. And then the parents for the most part are too busy earning a living in many respects to really get involved in their teacher child relations. Hard problem to fix.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
Boys should be taught by men and girls by women. That is a VERY interesting proposition, and one that I wonder if it would have a significantly better effect on those children from one parent households (Generally the mother).

[CelinaCatFan]

I think that low test scores fall back equally on the student, the teacher, and the parents.

The most successful students have all 3 of these parties working towards their success. It takes a student that has the desire to learn and work, a teacher that truly cares about and prepares that student, and a parent/parents that have instilled a sense of discipline and value for education.

[TheDOCTORdre]

blame the kids for being stupid

[Old Tiger]

teachers now days are a lot lazier and standardized testing is the downfall of the educational system.

[TheDOCTORdre]

Originally posted by TheDOCTORdre
blame the kids for being stupid

i meant stoopid

[BleedOrange]

How does it even get to the point of protest? These kids obviously should have been held back in prior years. I am certain these same parents would have protested then also. I think Red&White had it right, Obama will surely find a way to even the playing field regardless of value added. Reward failure and penalize success is beyond reason.

[Txbroadcaster]

Why does this have to turn into a what Obama would or would not do thread geez

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by BleedOrange
How does it even get to the point of protest? These kids obviously should have been held back in prior years. I am certain these same parents would have protested then also. I think Red&White had it right, Obama will surely find a way to even the playing field regardless of value added. Reward failure and penalize success is beyond reason.

http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/MJD/txt2slides/Example-2/bullshit-lg.jpg

[TheDOCTORdre]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Why does this have to turn into a what Obama would or would not do thread geez

i dont know but I was here before this thread got closed

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Why does this have to turn into a what Obama would or would not do thread geez

http://goingconcern.com/_old/two%20thumbs%20up.jpeg

[OldBison75]

By the time a kid is at graduation time as a Senior in high school, he or she has had multiple opportunities to pass the exit test. The actual first test is given at the end of the Junior year in high school and can be taken every three months after that. That means a kid has at least five opportunities to pass the test.

If any of you have ever been in the current school system structure, it is a joke. Kids spend more time on the computer and cell phones using twitter and facebook than they do learning. Yes, there are some teachers that just don't seem to care, but there are alot more parents that allow thier children to be involved in every activity known to man, seven nights a week, and never take an interest in thier grades until it is too late.

The actual downfall of the system is discipline. When the discipline evaporated out of the home and school, the kids learned that there were no immediate consequences for thier actions and started to accept being average or below average. If there was no one holding them accountable during the learning process and making them realize that failure was not a option, they would be more involved in the learning process.

The current idea that some kids cannot perform under the pressure of a test is a bunch of crap. Yes, some kids don't perform, but is because of poor preparation and not pressure. Those same kids that use this excuse can remember a playbook for football or basketball, every telephone number of 1000 friends, and the facebook or twitter account name of every person they ever met, but can't remember a simple math formula.

As a afterthought, just remember that the exit level TAKS test was given in an experiment to 500 incoming freshmen , and 77% passed on the first try. The test is basic skills necessary to perform in the real world, not rocket science.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by OldBison75
By the time a kid is at graduation time as a Senior in high school, he or she has had multiple opportunities to pass the exit test. The actual first test is given at the end of the Junior year in high school and can be taken every three months after that. That means a kid has at least five opportunities to pass the test.

If any of you have ever been in the current school system structure, it is a joke. Kids spend more time on the computer and cell phones using twitter and facebook than they do learning. Yes, there are some teachers that just don't seem to care, but there are alot more parents that allow thier children to be involved in every activity known to man, seven nights a week, and never take an interest in thier grades until it is too late.

The actual downfall of the system is discipline. When the discipline evaporated out of the home and school, the kids learned that there were no immediate consequences for thier actions and started to accept being average or below average. If there was no one holding them accountable during the learning process and making them realize that failure was not a option, they would be more involved in the learning process.

The current idea that some kids cannot perform under the pressure of a test is a bunch of crap. Yes, some kids don't perform, but is because of poor preparation and not pressure. Those same kids that use this excuse can remember a playbook for football or basketball, every telephone number of 1000 friends, and the facebook or twitter account name of every person they ever met, but can't remember a simple math formula.

As a afterthought, just remember that the exit level TAKS test was given in an experiment to 500 incoming freshmen , and 77% passed on the first try. The test is basic skills necessary to perform in the real world, not rocket science.

https://www.hoglezoo.org/images/animal_finder/Bison_American_1.jpg

[OldBison75]

BBDE, I hope that is a wise old bison. Otherwise, I might get offended and have to protest.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by OldBison75
BBDE, I hope that is a wise old bison. Otherwise, I might get offended and have to protest.

http://www.pauserefreshment.co.uk/images/thumbs%20up.jpg

[mwynn05]

we sure do have a lot of "experts" in this thread....out of curiosity how many of you have ever taught

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
wait a minute....that is a KID isnt it? Doesnt look like a parent. haha...that makes it even funnier.....this poor kid prolly wants to graduate and doesnt think its fair that they arent able to walk with their friends then they make that sign! wow

Maybe she realized her mistake since its on the side facing her. :thinking: Or maybe she's got the sign facing the wrong way.

[CelinaCatFan]

I am.

[mwynn05]

I can see that from your post but some of these people have for sure never been in a classroom...I probably teach in a situation much different than yours...mine is pretty similar to kaorders situation

[wildstangs]

Originally posted by mwynn05
I can see that from your post but some of these people have for sure never been in a classroom...I probably teach in a situation much different than yours...mine is pretty similar to kaorders situation

Lol...How is Keene, Texas similar to DISD?

[OldBison75]

I am not a teacher, but have worked in the schools and with school children for years. I see the apathy on the part of the kids that have no home discipline. Everyday, I see 75% of the kids I deal with leave the school with no books, no notes, nothing that indicates they have anything school related to do. These same kids are on the street all night long and most are in trouble regularly. When they do get in legal trouble, or in trouble at school, thier parents are harping about thier child would not do that and they are being picked on.

Even when they are in trouble, they are still out on the town every night and still drive the car momma and daddy bought them. They don't work or anything, so I guess momma and daddy buy the gas and insurance and give them the spending money they use to get beer and cigarettes. I have even heard some of these tell teachers that they plan on working at a local forging plant when they get out of school so they don't need math or science or history. One said , "Just give me a D and next year I'll be outta here and you will never see me again."

[tog]

I have been a teacher and coach for a long time now. What I see is this; We teachers, and especially coaches are the only ones that have ever appeared to tell the these kids NO.


They are truly shocked when we tell them something they don't want to hear.


The parents---ahem, find a better word, are the main issue.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by OldBison75
I am not a teacher, but have worked in the schools and with school children for years. I see the apathy on the part of the kids that have no home discipline. Everyday, I see 75% of the kids I deal with leave the school with no books, no notes, nothing that indicates they have anything school related to do. These same kids are on the street all night long and most are in trouble regularly. When they do get in legal trouble, or in trouble at school, thier parents are harping about thier child would not do that and they are being picked on.

Even when they are in trouble, they are still out on the town every night and still drive the car momma and daddy bought them. They don't work or anything, so I guess momma and daddy buy the gas and insurance and give them the spending money they use to get beer and cigarettes. I have even heard some of these tell teachers that they plan on working at a local forging plant when they get out of school so they don't need math or science or history. One said , "Just give me a D and next year I'll be outta here and you will never see me again."


I dont disagree, but I also think there is this in the old days syndrome that everyone back in "the good ole days" worked hard and all went to college and led amazing lives as doctors and lawyers and so on.

Simple fact is a majority of kids in all generations do JUST ENOUGH to get through HS and into the real world.

[bobcat4life]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I dont disagree, but I also think there is this in the old days syndrome that everyone back in "the good ole days" worked hard and all went to college and led amazing lives as doctors and lawyers and so on.

Simple fact is a majority of kids in all generations do JUST ENOUGH to get through HS and into the real world. as a person in high school now, I think many are just more concerned with other things than school. School is just something to waste 6-8 hours a day and see people you dont see anywhere but there. Most are just more concerned with friends and having fun because most classes are really boring. Alot has to do with being spoiled and getting anything they ask for. I know I get side tracked and go a while where Im more concerned with other things. It caused me to fail the 3rd six weeks this year in 3 classes, and I was a top 10 student and in BETA every year until now. I got busy with other things that were simply more enjoyable.

[BullsFan]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
teachers now days are a lot lazier and standardized testing is the downfall of the educational system.

You know, I was going to take offense at this, but then I looked at your profile and realized how very young you are. CLEARLY someone born after I graduated high school is qualified to make those kinds of sweeping generalizations. Teachers "now days"? As opposed to back in the..er...2000s, when you were in school? LOL.

Teachers who are lazy don't last long in this profession. You can't. There's so much work involved, so much paperwork, so much stuff that has nothing to do with teaching....and all this in addition to trying to both educate children AND get them ready for the test. And whoever said that teachers have a cookie cutter approach hasn't been in a classroom recently. No teacher worth his or her salt teaches every child the same way. Differentiation is critical to good teaching. Teachers now aren't so very different than teachers at any other time in history, aside from having to cover a WHOLE lot more information using a WHOLE lot more technology. Kids aren't so very different either. In fact, the only thing that really and truly has changed is our overemphasis on test scores. And for that, the whole country has Texas to thank. I just keep waiting for the pendulum to swing in the other direction.

[mwynn05]

Originally posted by wildstangs
Lol...How is Keene, Texas similar to DISD? well you might be surprised but unofficially according to food services we are now 88% economically disadvantaged (up from 80%) we are at 13% special ed...and a pretty high LEP population (60-65% hispanic, 18% asian pacific islander almost exclusively Marshallese)

[BullsFan]

Originally posted by mwynn05
well you might be surprised but unofficially according to food services we are now 88% economically disadvantaged (up from 80%) we are at 13% special ed...and a pretty high LEP population (60-65% hispanic, 18% asian pacific islander almost exclusively Marshallese)

Whoa. Those are some kind of numbers. How do you all deal with the number limitations for TAKS M and TAKS Alt?

[mwynn05]

Originally posted by BullsFan
Whoa. Those are some kind of numbers. How do you all deal with the number limitations for TAKS M and TAKS Alt? on a campus of like 220....thats the challenge.....seems like your sometimes forced to do something that isnt whats best for the KID or you dont meet ayp....im not sure of our lep % but its pretty high....and have you ever met anyone that speaks marshallese...no so its a much bigger challenge than the hispanic population

[bobcat4life]

Originally posted by mwynn05
on a campus of like 220....thats the challenge.....seems like your sometimes forced to do something that isnt whats best for the KID or you dont meet ayp....im not sure of our lep % but its pretty high....and have you ever met anyone that speaks marshallese...no so its a much bigger challenge than the hispanic population Ive never even heard of Marshallese::confused:

[BullsFan]

Originally posted by mwynn05
on a campus of like 220....thats the challenge.....seems like your sometimes forced to do something that isnt whats best for the KID or you dont meet ayp....im not sure of our lep % but its pretty high....and have you ever met anyone that speaks marshallese...no so its a much bigger challenge than the hispanic population

I don't see how you can meet AYP no matter what you do. I think only 1% of your population is allowed to take TAKS M now, and 2 or 3% can take TAKS Alt. I can't imagine how your numbers don't look atrocious for your special ed population with it being so high!

I haven't met anyone who speaks Marshallese (and don't even know what it is), but in Keller we had a fairly large Tongan population. I used to LOVE to say their names...but that was about all I could manage.

[LH Panther Mom]

What happened to holding the STUDENTS accountable for learning and their actions? I applaud the Trimble Tech administration for their decision. :clap:

As far as the sign the woman is holding (ka, I think it might be a parent) - LOL! :D :doh: Heck, you see similar on here every day - their, there, they're...our, are...etc. Yes, it is just a message board, not English class. But is that any excuse? "Oh, I know the difference, I just didn't feel like typing it." Why not?

It should be the parents' job to motivate their kids to want to learn and better themselves. Many times, because of familial circumstances, the parents are unable to be "parents" and are doing well to put a little food on the table. In those cases, it is up to the teacher to try to keep those kids motivated. For a teacher to have a large portion of their students in this type family setting, I'm sure the task can be very frustrating and almost seem impossible.

BUT - there are also a LOT of kids with entitlement attitudes who are spoiled and don't expect to have to follow the same rules. Hold them responsible! If they miss work, give them a big fat goose egg! If they skip class, don't let them make up the work! :foul: :foul: I have to shut my mouth/fingers now before I really go off.

[LH Panther Mom]

Oh and leave the President and other political figures out of this discussion, or it's closed! :mad:

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
Ever seen the movie Idiocracy? It is freaking hilarious! This situation reminds me of the movie!

you're a very wise man - that's what I was referencing. I don't believe we're all better off by coddling one kid. I don't care if he's lazy or just dumb. Get him/her out of the equation. These kids are huting all the other kids who can succeed. That's why I think all those studies that rank the US behind every other industrialized nation in most academic categories are BS. Do you really think they hold the whole system back for one kid? Heck no.

[BullsFan]

Originally posted by SWMustang
That's why I think all those studies that rank the US behind every other industrialized nation in most academic categories are BS. Do you really think they hold the whole system back for one kid? Heck no.

Those countries also don't have the HUGE numbers of immigrants/non-English-speaking populations that the US has, and not one I can think of provides free public education that is also MANDATORY through age 16. So of course our numbers are going to skew differently.

[Farmersfan]

My son used to complain to me all the time that a handful of kids in his classes dominated the teacher's time and the learning cycle. He said the teachers tried really, really hard but where constantly having to stop and review and move at a snails pace because of a small minority in the class.
It seems to me these kids that learn at a slower rate should be put in a slower paced classroom rather than slowing down everyone else!

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Why does this have to turn into a what Obama would or would not do thread geez

I agree this not about obama. this is about the liberal teachers unions and liberal dems who have the bleeding heart syndrome for kids who "can't" pass due to their (name the excuse) and the fact that parents in those situtations with ( name the excuse) issues should not be held accountable. Nor should the teachers because (name the excuse) makes it difficult to hold them accountable. It's Bush's fault>>>>>> :rolleyes:

[NateDawg39]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
I agree this not about obama. this is about the liberal teachers unions and liberal dems who have the bleeding heart syndrome for kids who "can't" pass due to their (name the excuse) and the fact that parents in those situtations with ( name the excuse) issues should not be held accountable. Nor should the teachers because (name the excuse) makes it difficult to hold them accountable. If a parent can not hold the child accountable then they are not doing their job...and the cycle continues more than likely.

[OldBison75]

Just to prove a point, I sat at the bus line at our High School this morning and counted 16 kids get off the bus with any books or papers out of over 150 that rode the buses. My daughter is a senior and never comes home with less than three homework assignments every day. She said that most of the kids wait until the morning the homework is due and copy off of friends or pay someone for the homework answers. She says she has been offered as much as 20 dollars for the answers to economics homework.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by NateDawg39
If a parent can not hold the child accountable then they are not doing their job...and the cycle continues more than likely.

I agree but that goes against the liberal agenda that we should be responsible. the government has a fix for it if you will pay higher taxes. You could replace the term Liberal here with the term Statist or socialist. In this political context there is very little difference.

[NateDawg39]

Originally posted by OldBison75
Just to prove a point, I sat at the bus line at our High School this morning and counted 16 kids get off the bus with any books or papers out of over 150 that rode the buses. My daughter is a senior and never comes home with less than three homework assignments every day. She said that most of the kids wait until the morning the homework is due and copy off of friends or pay someone for the homework answers. She says she has been offered as much as 20 dollars for the answers to economics homework. Yeah I remember that crap. It is sad it goes on but sadly it does.

[NateDawg39]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
I agree but that goes against the liberal agenda that we should be responsible. the government has a fix for it if you will pay higher taxes. Then we need a new agenda it seems. lets look at other countries like Japan, Canada, China and Germany. Take some notes build a new system and start fresh with new ideas and new ways to teach.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by NateDawg39
Then we need a new agenda it seems. lets look at other countries like Japan, Canada, China and Germany. Take some notes build a new system and start fresh with new ideas and new ways to teach.

The problem with that is that you need a political system that will look beyond getting re-elected. Those with the most money get re-elected and the most money comes to the libs with union as in teachers unions support. And teachers like things the way they are in most places. Or at least their union leadership does.

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
The problem with that is that you need a political system that will look beyond getting re-elected. Those with the most money get re-elected and the most money comes to the libs with union as in teachers unions support. And teachers like things the way they are in most places. Or at least their union leadership does.


just wondering what is wrong with teacher unions?

i think most teachers i know aren't in favor of the way a lot of things are done in by TEA...ie TAK's testing....etc.

[NateDawg39]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
The problem with that is that you need a political system that will look beyond getting re-elected. Those with the most money get re-elected and the most money comes to the libs with union as in teachers unions support. And teachers like things the way they are in most places. Or at least their union leadership does. True, and I am pro union, I have been a union member with pipeliners 798 for about 5 years now. Unfortunately politics is a lot more "out in the open" and the leaders do not hesitate to make their views known and sometimes people get called out. Union politics are not easily won by new ideas and principles

[NateDawg39]

Originally posted by NastySlot
just wondering what is wrong with teacher unions?

i think most teachers i know aren't in favor of the way a lot of things are done in by TEA...ie TAK's testing....etc. My take on things is that the Teachers Union just does not want to change the system because it is the basic system we have used for a long time now....Just my opinion of course

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by NateDawg39
Then we need a new agenda it seems. lets look at other countries like Japan, Canada, China and Germany. Take some notes build a new system and start fresh with new ideas and new ways to teach.




None of these systems are possible in America because we have a different social structure. In this country we blame everyone and everything except for the individual that is responsible. Inner City educational programs for the most part are much less successful than other programs and I think we all know why. Yet political pressure and liberal agendas have us acting like it's societies fault that inner city kids can't/won't learn. Until we begin to understand that a education is a priviledge rather than an "entitlement" we will continue to change the program to try to accomodate the slackers in the system while hurting the achievers.

[waterboy]

Originally posted by NastySlot
just wondering what is wrong with teacher unions?

i think most teachers i know aren't in favor of the way a lot of things are done in by TEA...ie TAK's testing....etc.
I've often wondered the same thing, but then I remember that it IS a union, and unions are almost always liberalists. Being the husband of a school teacher, I see the same thing you do -- most teachers I know are staunchly conservative, and do not approve of the way things are handled in the TEA. What amazes me is that they still pay into this union when it does not represent the interests or ideas of the vast majority of them. It seems to me that they would try to get a better representation, but it seems they have no real say-so in the matter......:confused:

[NateDawg39]

Originally posted by waterboy
I've often wondered the same thing, but then I remember that it IS a union, and unions are almost always liberalists. Being the husband of a school teacher, I see the same thing you do -- most teachers I know are staunchly conservative, and do not approve of the way things are handled in the TEA. What amazes me is that they still pay into this union when it does not represent the interests or ideas of the vast majority of them. It seems to me that they would try to get a better representation, but it seems they have no real say-so in the matter......:confused: My unions leadership is 50/50 between conservative and liberal. The leadership talks liberal but seeing as how we work in oil and gas, the decision making is conservative. As for the workforce, we are mostly conservative especially since the majority come from Texas, Arkansas and Louisiana

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by NateDawg39
True, and I am pro union, I have been a union member with pipeliners 798 for about 5 years now. Unfortunately politics is a lot more "out in the open" and the leaders do not hesitate to make their views known and sometimes people get called out. Union politics are not easily won by new ideas and principles

Yes it is generally not the membership that is the problem so much as it is the leadership and the deals they make to keep them in power.

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by waterboy
I've often wondered the same thing, but then I remember that it IS a union, and unions are almost always liberalists. Being the husband of a school teacher, I see the same thing you do -- most teachers I know are staunchly conservative, and do not approve of the way things are handled in the TEA. What amazes me is that they still pay into this union when it does not represent the interests or ideas of the vast majority of them. It seems to me that they would try to get a better representation, but it seems they have no real say-so in the matter......:confused:


I think a lot of times teachers will join this union because it would be their only voice in legal matters against districts, parents or at times the state. Im sure there are other benefits of the teachers union related to health care and insurance issues....who are they gone to count on school boards that give them slight increases in pay...which at times will only cover the increased raise in insurance. Im not sure how teacher unions work in other states...but in Texas you're not going have the unions convincing teachers to strike.

sorry this i guess is really another topic...didn't mean to hijack this.

[BullsFan]

For the record, there are no teacher unions in Texas. There are teacher organizations that are affiliated with national unions (one of which I am a member) but there are no unions. I believe in Texas teachers are barred by law from collective bargaining. Same thing in many other southern states. And that, my friends, is why teachers in the south get treated the way we all too often are by our government. If you want a good idea of where to look for the origins of our problems in education, you have only to look at our state legislature (and governor) and TEA, who have between the two of them made it all but impossible to do what needs to be done. Siphoning education money off into other parts of the budget and cutting costs and funds left and right while insisting that EVERY SINGLE CHILD who is the same age pass the same test irregardless of background or IQ....well, it's just stupid.

And never mind on all the rest I was going to say, because it's all political and I know better. But I do want to say this--it isn't liberals and Democrats or the current federal administration that got us into this mess.

ETA: Not sure, but I think we are barred from striking as well. I don't know how enforcible that would be should any teachers actually try it, but I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to. Not that anyone I know would, no matter how bad our working environment becomes.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
I agree this not about obama. this is about the liberal teachers unions and liberal dems who have the bleeding heart syndrome for kids who "can't" pass due to their (name the excuse) and the fact that parents in those situtations with ( name the excuse) issues should not be held accountable. Nor should the teachers because (name the excuse) makes it difficult to hold them accountable. It's Bush's fault>>>>>> :rolleyes: http://pinkdome.com/archives/Douchebag.jpg

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by BullsFan
For the record, there are no teacher unions in Texas. There are teacher organizations that are affiliated with national unions (one of which I am a member) but there are no unions. I believe in Texas teachers are barred by law from collective bargaining. Same thing in many other southern states. And that, my friends, is why teachers in the south get treated the way we all too often are by our government. If you want a good idea of where to look for the origins of our problems in education, you have only to look at our state legislature (and governor) and TEA, who have between the two of them made it all but impossible to do what needs to be done. Siphoning education money off into other parts of the budget and cutting costs and funds left and right while insisting that EVERY SINGLE CHILD who is the same age pass the same test irregardless of background or IQ....well, it's just stupid.

And never mind on all the rest I was going to say, because it's all political and I know better. But I do want to say this--it isn't liberals and Democrats or the current federal administration that got us into this mess.

ETA: Not sure, but I think we are barred from striking as well. I don't know how enforcible that would be should any teachers actually try it, but I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to. Not that anyone I know would, no matter how bad our working environment becomes.

And how many TEA members are republican elected? What party comprises our state legislature? I love how a parenting issue turned into a democrat issue.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by NastySlot
I think a lot of times teachers will join this union because it would be their only voice in legal matters against districts, parents or at times the state. Im sure there are other benefits of the teachers union related to health care and insurance issues....who are they gone to count on school boards that give them slight increases in pay...which at times will only cover the increased raise in insurance. Im not sure how teacher unions work in other states...but in Texas you're not going have the unions convincing teachers to strike.

sorry this i guess is really another topic...didn't mean to hijack this.

Actually this is part and parcel of why kids are not educated. The system needs and demands a status quo to keep money where it is. Change is Darwinian and the Neanderthals would go away if that happened. So they attempt to keep it as static as possible to maintain their power base while by and large most people go along the path of least resisitance. thus the Statists gain more powers and the poeple less liberty while all along promising the moon and delivering taxes. The education system is the incubation system to teach the children that government is good rather that the people are the government. Meanwhile education cannot educate properly for everyone because the things that would incentivise education are rejected because it would effect not only the the level of education but how the money and numbers are controlled.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
Actually this is part and parcel of why kids are not educated. The system needs and demands a status quo to keep money where it is. Change is Darwinian and the Neanderthals would go away if that happened. So they attempt to keep it as static as possible to maintain their power base while by and large most people go along the path of least resisitance. thus the Statists gain more powers and the poeple less liberty while all along promising the moon and delivering taxes. The education system is the incubation system to teach the children that government is good rather that the people are the government. Meanwhile education cannot educate properly for everyone because the things that would incentivise education are rejected because it would effect not on the the level of education but how the money and numbers are controlled. http://pinkdome.com/archives/Douchebag.jpg

[BILLYFRED0000]

Now all that being said this is on the national level for the most part and not the local level. I have found that Texas Schools actually do rather well although we could do better. But since the feds control a lot of money for the states don't expect the states to rock the boat.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
Now all that being said this is on the national level for the most part and not the local level. I have found that Texas Schools actually do rather well although we could do better. But since the feds control a lot of money for the states don't expect the states to rock the boat.

http://smalldog.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/stupidity_1170973245.jpg

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
Now all that being said this is on the national level for the most part and not the local level. I have found that Texas Schools actually do rather well although we could do better. But since the feds control a lot of money for the states don't expect the states to rock the boat. http://www.erichufschmid.net/Dumb-down/super-retard.JPG

[BILLYFRED0000]

And you will notice that people most recently out of the education system are the staunchist supporters of this system which is one of the main goals of the statist.

[BullsFan]

Originally posted by rockdale80
And how many TEA members are republican elected? What party comprises our state legislature? I love how a parenting issue turned into a democrat issue.

I was not the one who turned it into a Democrat issue--I was responding to those suggesting it was either (a) Obama, (b) liberal weenies, or (c) "liberal" teacher unions. For the record, the Commissioner of Education was appointed by Rick Perry. The Chair of the SBOE, a Republican, was appointed as Chair by Rick Perry. Of the 15 members of the SBOE, only 5 are Democrats. You have to know the make-up of the Texas state legislature. THOSE are the organizations responsible for the current state of affairs in Texas education because those are the organizations that have rerouted educational funds while ramping up the overimportance of tests and at the same time insisting that every child should pass it.

But for the record, it's not Republican or Democrat I vote for at this point. So far as I'm concerned, if they have that little (I) after their names on the ballot, they won't be getting my vote. Those currently in office have done a shabby job especially in regards to education, and I'm looking for some fresh blood no matter which political affiliation anyone professes.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by rockdale80
And how many TEA members are republican elected? What party comprises our state legislature? I love how a parenting issue turned into a democrat issue. Naturally.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by BullsFan
I was not the one who turned it into a Democrat issue--I was responding to those suggesting it was either (a) Obama, (b) liberal weenies, or (c) "liberal" teacher unions. For the record, the Commissioner of Education was appointed by Rick Perry. The Chair of the SBOE, a Republican, was appointed as Chair by Rick Perry. Of the 15 members of the SBOE, only 5 are Democrats. You have to know the make-up of the Texas state legislature. THOSE are the organizations responsible for the current state of affairs in Texas education because those are the organizations that have rerouted educational funds while ramping up the overimportance of tests and at the same time insisting that every child should pass it.
How dare you! Why do you hate freedom? :D LOL

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by BullsFan
I was not the one who turned it into a Democrat issue--I was responding to those suggesting it was either (a) Obama, (b) liberal weenies, or (c) "liberal" teacher unions. For the record, the Commissioner of Education was appointed by Rick Perry. The Chair of the SBOE, a Republican, was appointed as Chair by Rick Perry. Of the 15 members of the SBOE, only 5 are Democrats. You have to know the make-up of the Texas state legislature. THOSE are the organizations responsible for the current state of affairs in Texas education because those are the organizations that have rerouted educational funds while ramping up the overimportance of tests and at the same time insisting that every child should pass it.

But for the record, it's not Republican or Democrat I vote for at this point. So far as I'm concerned, if they have that little (I) after their names on the ballot, they won't be getting my vote. Those currently in office have done a shabby job especially in regards to education, and I'm looking for some fresh blood no matter which political affiliation anyone professes.

It is not a democrat issue in any case. It is an issue of policy not politics. Many a good democrat does not go in that general direction. that is the problem with most people pushing back. It is assumed ( and you know what that means) that any intelligent conversation about the agenda of the left means dems and repubics but that is assinine.

[BullsFan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
How dare you! Why do you hate freedom? :D LOL

LOL!!

You know I get a worse response whenever I try to discuss these things with family--I am definitely a lone wolf when it comes to politics around here. That's what 20 years in education will do to you... :D :D

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by BullsFan
LOL!!

You know I get a worse response whenever I try to discuss these things with family--I am definitely a lone wolf when it comes to politics around here. That's what 20 years in education will do to you... :D :D HAHA you should buy some wolf shirts and jean shorts! You'll fit in better with that crowd!

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by BullsFan
You know, I was going to take offense at this, but then I looked at your profile and realized how very young you are. CLEARLY someone born after I graduated high school is qualified to make those kinds of sweeping generalizations. Teachers "now days"? As opposed to back in the..er...2000s, when you were in school? LOL.

Teachers who are lazy don't last long in this profession. You can't. There's so much work involved, so much paperwork, so much stuff that has nothing to do with teaching....and all this in addition to trying to both educate children AND get them ready for the test. And whoever said that teachers have a cookie cutter approach hasn't been in a classroom recently. No teacher worth his or her salt teaches every child the same way. Differentiation is critical to good teaching. Teachers now aren't so very different than teachers at any other time in history, aside from having to cover a WHOLE lot more information using a WHOLE lot more technology. Kids aren't so very different either. In fact, the only thing that really and truly has changed is our overemphasis on test scores. And for that, the whole country has Texas to thank. I just keep waiting for the pendulum to swing in the other direction. I've seen many of teachers just pass out work give a brief explanation and when you asked them for help they instructed you to use a buddy sitting next to you. I maybe shouldn't have said teachers in such a broad way but there are a lot of teachers who just sit at their desk all day on a computer eating a dozen of donuts and drinking diet soda waters as if they are trying to lose weight.

[BullsFan]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
It is not a democrat issue in any case. It is an issue of policy not politics. Many a good democrat does not go in that general direction. that is the problem with most people pushing back. It is assumed ( and you know what that means) that any intelligent conversation about the agenda of the left means dems and repubics but that is assinine.

Pardon? Were you not the one who directly referenced liberal teacher unions and liberal DEMS? I'm sorry, I clearly misinterpreted your use of the term "dems" to mean Democrats. Please explain what you actually mean, because I'm apparently too asinine to get it.

And that was all without addressing your misconception that it was liberals that got us into this mess in the first place. I loved President Bush, but it was back in his gubernatorial days that we began this push for testing. While it was a good idea at first, we've taken it way too far, and Texas is leading the way in this charge.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by BullsFan
Pardon? Were you not the one who directly referenced liberal teacher unions and liberal DEMS? I'm sorry, I clearly misinterpreted your use of the term "dems" to mean Democrats. Please explain what you actually mean, because I'm apparently too asinine to get it.

And that was all without addressing your misconception that it was liberals that got us into this mess in the first place. I loved President Bush, but it was back in his gubernatorial days that we began this push for testing. While it was a good idea at first, we've taken it way too far, and Texas is leading the way in this charge. Yes, even from the good students, most can't critically think or write an essay to save their lives. Teaching TO the test was the worst impact of all this.

[BullsFan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
HAHA you should by some wolf shirts and jean shorts! You'll fit in better with that crowd!

LOL--I can just see me showing up to work looking like that. CHAOS in the classroom!



Originally posted by Old Tiger
I've seen many of teachers just pass out work give a brief explanation and when you asked them for help they instructed you to use a buddy sitting next to you. I maybe shouldn't have said teachers in such a broad way but there are a lot of teachers who just sit at their desk all day on a computer eating a dozen of donuts and drinking diet soda waters as if they are trying to lose weight.

I'm sorry you've had experiences with those kinds of teachers. I can assure you that most of the teachers I've come across in my career are NOT like that. The ones who are like that usually don't last long, although it is unfortunately difficult to get rid of them if they stick.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by BullsFan
Pardon? Were you not the one who directly referenced liberal teacher unions and liberal DEMS? I'm sorry, I clearly misinterpreted your use of the term "dems" to mean Democrats. Please explain what you actually mean, because I'm apparently too asinine to get it.

And that was all without addressing your misconception that it was liberals that got us into this mess in the first place. I loved President Bush, but it was back in his gubernatorial days that we began this push for testing. While it was a good idea at first, we've taken it way too far, and Texas is leading the way in this charge.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/MOC32/The11thCommandment.png

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by BullsFan
Pardon? Were you not the one who directly referenced liberal teacher unions and liberal DEMS? I'm sorry, I clearly misinterpreted your use of the term "dems" to mean Democrats. Please explain what you actually mean, because I'm apparently too asinine to get it.

And that was all without addressing your misconception that it was liberals that got us into this mess in the first place. I loved President Bush, but it was back in his gubernatorial days that we began this push for testing. While it was a good idea at first, we've taken it way too far, and Texas is leading the way in this charge.

You can take dems out of the line. That was an incidental inclusion. What I meant was policy not politics. But I did mention liberal dems and not dems. Or did you not miss that specific. If there were liberal Repubics I would have thrown that out there.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by BullsFan
Pardon? Were you not the one who directly referenced liberal teacher unions and liberal DEMS? I'm sorry, I clearly misinterpreted your use of the term "dems" to mean Democrats. Please explain what you actually mean, because I'm apparently too asinine to get it.

And that was all without addressing your misconception that it was liberals that got us into this mess in the first place. I loved President Bush, but it was back in his gubernatorial days that we began this push for testing. While it was a good idea at first, we've taken it way too far, and Texas is leading the way in this charge.

You missed that one. go back to Mark White. Testing push started then. Ann had her say too.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by BullsFan
Pardon? Were you not the one who directly referenced liberal teacher unions and liberal DEMS? I'm sorry, I clearly misinterpreted your use of the term "dems" to mean Democrats. Please explain what you actually mean, because I'm apparently too asinine to get it.

And that was all without addressing your misconception that it was liberals that got us into this mess in the first place. I loved President Bush, but it was back in his gubernatorial days that we began this push for testing. While it was a good idea at first, we've taken it way too far, and Texas is leading the way in this charge.

And I did not say that libs got us into the testing mess. They are the ones that will not allow money to go to vouchers etc or kids going to high performing schools or teacher testing to verify teacher capability to handle a class and teach a subject. I am not saying am for or against any of these. Just presenting the facts as they exist. I have several family members that have taught and are still teaching.

[JasperDog94]

Speaking of vouchers, why in the world would anyone be opposed to vouchers? It allows for freedom of choice. Why should parents not have a choice as to where their kids go to school?

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
And I did not say that libs got us into the testing mess. They are the ones that will not allow money to go to vouchers etc or kids going to high performing schools or teacher testing to verify teacher capability to handle a class and teach a subject. I am not saying am for or against any of these. Just presenting the facts as they exist. I have several family members that have taught and are still teaching.

Blame the Democrats for the failures of the TEA? Maybe you should take a test....

http://www.phuckpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/kid_retard_ninja.jpg

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by rockdale80
Blame the Democrats for the failures of the TEA? Maybe you should take a test....

http://www.phuckpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/kid_retard_ninja.jpg

YOu are really stupid yes. I said it was not dems it was policy.
Now I did say it was a liberal policy issue and not a conservative policy issue.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
YOu are really stupid yes. I said it was not dems it was policy.
Now why don't you take your computer home to mommy before it gets dark. She might get mad.

http://dimpost.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/fox_news_idiocracy.jpg

[waterboy]

Originally posted by BullsFan
For the record, there are no teacher unions in Texas. There are teacher organizations that are affiliated with national unions (one of which I am a member) but there are no unions. I believe in Texas teachers are barred by law from collective bargaining. Same thing in many other southern states. And that, my friends, is why teachers in the south get treated the way we all too often are by our government. If you want a good idea of where to look for the origins of our problems in education, you have only to look at our state legislature (and governor) and TEA, who have between the two of them made it all but impossible to do what needs to be done. Siphoning education money off into other parts of the budget and cutting costs and funds left and right while insisting that EVERY SINGLE CHILD who is the same age pass the same test irregardless of background or IQ....well, it's just stupid.

And never mind on all the rest I was going to say, because it's all political and I know better. But I do want to say this--it isn't liberals and Democrats or the current federal administration that got us into this mess.

ETA: Not sure, but I think we are barred from striking as well. I don't know how enforcible that would be should any teachers actually try it, but I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to. Not that anyone I know would, no matter how bad our working environment becomes.
It's definitely complicated even more due to the fact that teachers have NO collective bargaining abilities in Texas. Without that power teachers are treated like the "redheaded stepchild" so to speak. That is not conducive to a satisfactory work, or learning environment. Most people outside the education system don't understand what teachers are put through, and have no clue what mandates the TEA has implemented in the classroom. I've seen firsthand some of the things teachers have to do because of some TEA bureaucrat that thinks they know how things should be done, when in fact they have NO clue. Some uniformity is necessary, I know that, but some of this crap is way over the top. Suffice it to say, teachers have to do their jobs with MANY handicaps, and have to answer for their students' shortcomings without parental support for the most part. It seems that most people think it's the teachers' fault when students don't meet the expectations the state has set, even though the limitations set by those guidelines makes it near impossible for success in some cases. I think the blame lies, for the most part, on the parents and the education "system".........but that's just me......:cool:

[GreenMonster]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
http://dimpost.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/fox_news_idiocracy.jpg haha Idiocracy, what a great movie......and exactly where we are headed if we don't stop being lazy and go back to working for what we have. Government handouts need to stop and I'm not pointing at any political party because both of them gave us stimulus money and asked for us to go spend it but all we could spend it on was crap made in some other country. We've had 4 great economic crises in this country and each one of them was corrected with jobs not free money from the government. Get the government out of the way of business and let them go back to creating jobs and put our people back to work so they can put money back in their own pockets.

[Old Green]

Hey Guys ! Let's keep this thread from becoming political. Any more political jabs and the thread will be closed.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by Old Green
Hey Guys ! Let's keep this thread from becoming political. Any more political jabs and the thread will be closed.

I agree. I do believe that the liberal policy of the gov can fix it is a bad policy because of the inherent inefficiency of the process and the conservative policy of we can fix it is the correct one.

[Halestorm]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
A lot of parents are not going to step up to insure that their kids graduate and leave this responsibility to the teachers.

I say that any student not passing the test by their 18th year of age, and not gainfully employed, should be automatically drafted into the Armed Forces and allowed to complete their education there.

I'd prefer not letting such individuals into service. With an ever-shrinking force, every single person must be able get the job done. I've served for 18 years and am glad that we are a volunteer only military. We don't have time to babysit.

[mwynn05]

Bull the reason our % is so high is the town isn't big but there is a private school that is the same size so they can control who can and can't go there

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Alright, I'm going to take a break from my pictures to address Billy. You have to be one of the most inept people I have ever seen in my entire life. Everything is the Democrats fault. Where were you when Bush was in office and we were facing terrorist attacks, unemployment, inflation, and record high natural gas and oil prices? I guess it was the Democrat's fault then too, just like the lack of education, but yet Bush's "No Child Left Behind" was a complete flop and waste of taxpayer money, but I have yet to see you post one thing to criticize the governmental policies of Bush and other Republicans who have held the power. You simply make excuses and spew complete and utter nonsense onto this board. It is pathetic that you are even allowed to try to participate in a debate that requires intelligent thought and reason. There is a reason that the least educated members of America are voting Republican and on the complete inverse side of the coin the most educated vote Democrat, that is unless they have been corrupted by greed and self-serving fundamental ideals. The Conservative policy is far from "we will fix it", it's more like we will take away from the common man and give to large businesses and corporations, back manipulation and speculation, and be bought out by HMO's and energy companies. I know Democrats are in on it as well, but at least they have a policy that is trying to promote for the greater good. Look back and history will prove that in the New Deal and Great Society programs. The Republican claim to fame: trickle down economics. Give me a break. The stupidity that is present on this forum makes me sick and that's the reason that America is going to hell, not because of the agenda of the Democrats. This turned from a thread about lack of education to you casting stones about the Democratic policy. News flash people, Republicans aren't "Conservative" and they're not going to ban abortion and any ban on gay marriage is discriminatory in nature. Democrats aren't going to take all of your guns or your money. Anybody who thinks any of those things are stupid, plain and simple.

[BILLYFRED0000]

And I said this was not a democrat vs republican issue. but you keep saying the opposite. this is a policy issue. Now why is it that you seem to have missed that. I have repeated that on numerous occasions in this thread. so Now I have to take a break and assume that all you dems on the board just see this as an attack on dems because you see the policy issue that way.

I have said all along that many a good dem does not agree with the far left all along the way. It is rather unfortunate that at this time the far left seems to hold more sway over the dems than the moderates but that is not a democrat issue it is a POLICY issue within the party itself.

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Alright, I'm going to take a break from my pictures to address Billy. You have to be one of the most inept people I have ever seen in my entire life. Everything is the Democrats fault. Where were you when Bush was in office and we were facing terrorist attacks, unemployment, inflation, and record high natural gas and oil prices? I guess it was the Democrat's fault then too, just like the lack of education, but yet Bush's "No Child Left Behind" was a complete flop and waste of taxpayer money, but I have yet to see you post one thing to criticize the governmental policies of Bush and other Republicans who have held the power. You simply make excuses and spew complete and utter nonsense onto this board. It is pathetic that you are even allowed to try to participate in a debate that requires intelligent thought and reason. There is a reason that the least educated members of America are voting Republican and on the complete inverse side of the coin the most educated vote Democrat, that is unless they have been corrupted by greed and self-serving fundamental ideals. The Conservative policy is far from "we will fix it", it's more like we will take away from the common man and give to large businesses and corporations, back manipulation and speculation, and be bought out by HMO's and energy companies. I know Democrats are in on it as well, but at least they have a policy that is trying to promote for the greater good. Look back and history will prove that in the New Deal and Great Society programs. The Republican claim to fame: trickle down economics. Give me a break. The stupidity that is present on this forum makes me sick and that's the reason that America is going to hell, not because of the agenda of the Democrats. This turned from a thread about lack of education to you casting stones about the Democratic policy. News flash people, Republicans aren't "Conservative" and they're not going to ban abortion and any ban on gay marriage is discriminatory in nature. Democrats aren't going to take all of your guns or your money. Anybody who thinks any of those things are stupid, plain and simple.

This must be that sarcasm you were referring to.....or maybe uniformed naivety.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
I agree. I do believe that the liberal policy of the gov can fix it is a bad policy because of the inherent inefficiency of the process and the conservative policy of we can fix it is the correct one. Yet, the conservative critique of bad governance is many times a policy that is self perpetuating by those they in particular elect. Funny how that works. This isn't A and B. GOOD AND BAD, EVIL AND GOOD. That's simplistic reductionism that creates polarity. HENCE OUR CURRENT NATIONAL DIVIDE AND HATEFUL SPEW>

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Yet, the conservative critique of bad governance is many times a policy that is self perpetuating by those they in particular elect. Funny how that works. This isn't A and B. GOOD AND BAD, EVIL AND GOOD. That's simplistic reductionism that creates polarity. HENCE OUR CURRENT NATIONAL DIVIDE AND HATEFUL SPEW>

I don't believe in critique as a policy. I have alternatives. The government cannot fix my front lawn. Nor should they. that would be unconstitutional. So is any interference in the education of my child. No where in the consititution is the federal government granted the right to control the education of my child yet I find them doing exactly that. I never said A and B. I said the government cannot do the job. There is no A. Just versions of B.